Are Pocket PC phones killing Smartphones?

[The PocketTV Team]

I have the distinct feeling, based on observed evolution of market shares, that Pocket PC phones are killing the Smartphone market big time.

In fact Smartphones (I mean, Windows Mobile Smartphones) have never really got a sizeable share of the mobile phone market, and with all the new nice WM5 Pocket PC phones hitting the market lately, it seems that MSFT Smartphone share is now shrinking!

And of course, the fact that WM5 makes Pocket PC look like Smartphones (with Soft Keys) certainely is not helping the Smartphone platform market to grow.

Am I the only one to feel like this?

[Mike Temporale]

I don't think so. Smartphones are really aimed at the one handed operation. Where as the Pocket PC needs that stylus tapping around on everything. I know that some people can get by using their thumbs on the screen, but that never worked for me.

I think we'll see the end of the differences between the two platforms in the not too distant future. It will just be Windows Mobile - No Pocket PC, and No Smartphone label. The truth is that we are already seeing more and more, the Pocket PC becoming a Smartphone. The addition of 2 softkeys, persistent storage, and more. Windows Mobile 5 is more about bringing the Pocket PC closer to where the Smartphone is than anything else. :)

[possmann]

"Uncle" Bill mentioned in the Verizon press release - the Palm device running Windows Mobile 5 - that the distintion between platforms is going to dissappear yet the use of each platform is unique. Some people want a phone primarily, others want more than a phone. If the others who want more than a phone are willing to comprimise the increase of real estate, then the larger devices, with screen input required, would be the option of choice.

Frankly, I am looking at implmenting both devices as I have different needs on different days. Yes, that menas 2 unlocked devices and swicting my card between them. I cna see taking a smartphone on an evening out, but for those business lunches and meetings I would wantto rely on the abailty to input information into a pocketpc phone device.

Make sense?

I think that the smartphone market is just now starting to really take off. I don;t see it slowing down, rather the other. And as long as people have different needs it's nice to know that one OS can meet the needs.

[Sven Johannsen]

I don't think PPCPE are hurting WM Smartphones, I think other smartphones are. There are a lot of phones out there that do PIM, have cameras that do stills and video, have some music playback, etc. I don't think the WM ones are that well marketed or pushed by the carriers, at least here in the US.

In the PDA/Phone space, what is there really these days but the Treo and WM devices.

So when I'm shopping for a phone that can help in PIM functions and maybe some more, I am overwhelmed with options in phones, other than WM, but I'm not typically presented with a PDA as an option.

[encece]

I've said this a Loooog time ago when everyone said the Smartphone will never die. I predicted the platforms would merge and PPC would be victorious....as long as the form factor came down enough in size.

But I digress.

I go back and forth between OS's. In the end, I wish they would make a PPC the size of a Smartphone...with a keypad.

The new Treo is pretty close to what I had in mind! But I may get a Wizard in the meantime. :)

But the new Smartphones are pretty sweet as well.....decisions decisions. I cant decide, and since I didnt win BeyondTheTech's raffle....I guess I need to make that decision on my own. :(

[subzerohf]

I have the distinct feeling, based on observed evolution of market shares, that Pocket PC phones are killing the Smartphone market big time.

...

Funny, 'cause my distinct feeling is the other way around - Smartphones are killing PPC. Slowly but surely. Because cell phones are getting smarter by the day; PPC's are not getting prettier. And the mass market prefers to talk on a phone rather than on a brick (um, PPC) :wink: .

[encece]

I dont believe Smartphone or PPC phones are used by the masses. They are the upper ring of phones and are used by those not afraid to use them...and/or have a true need for the added functionality.

Most people, when talking about the entire population, use regular blah phones. But when talking about the technophile population...PPC is winning out over Smartphones. My guess is because of the tiny bit of extra functionality, the larger screen, and the magnitude of available apps.

Neither can really be called bricks anymore. Smartphones and PPCs are very small in size...though the latter is still a tad bigger. But as PPC sizes gets smaller....Smartphones become less of a preferred choice. Who preferrs those teeny tiny phones anymore anyway when you lose the added functionality of cameras, calendar, unlimited contacts, internet browsing, etc.

I believe the original intention of the Smartphone was to provide PDA functionality in a phone sized unit....though it does sacrifice some minor features in doing so. I believe it was originally intended to compete in the phone market...when it has actually competed in the PPC/PDA market and in effect caused PPCs to reduce their size.

PPCs are shrinking down in size so much that the Smartphone isnt necessary anymore.

[subzerohf]

What I see as a trend is that cell phones in general (for the mass market) are getting "smarter" by the day. Most of today's new phones come with a camera, and some limited internet browsing capability. As the 3G services (EDGE, EV-DO, UMTS, what have you) become more widely available, full blown web browsers on those cell phones is inevitable.

When (not if) watching TV and downloading MP3 from iTunes on a typical cell phone is a reality, what stop those phones from checking email and Calendar? So what I am saying is that eventually, most cell phones will be "smart". Phone edition PPC's, on the other hand, remain in the niche market where they are now.

[surur]

Actually smartphones outsell PPC phones very well, and match pocketpc sales in total (from published numbers 6 months ago).

Surur

[encece]

There is still plenty you cant do on ANY phone and probably wont be able to do in the near future. You cant open/edit/view Word, Excel, PPT files on ANY phone. You cant play ripped DVDs. There arent many third party developers writing apps for the "lesser phones" because of the inconsistentcy between the many different platforms....let alone apps that can sync to a PC version of the same app.

But I will say one thing about the other phones....they ususally do the phone portion and related fuctions better that both the ppc and smartphone (besides pc synchronization of PIM apps including Contacts).

It's hard to debate these points (especially from work) but in short....other phones are far from being fully smart like ppcs and smartphones. They may or will be be good at one or two things like the music phones or camera phones....but both PPCs and Smartphones can do it all which no other phones to date can say.

[Sven Johannsen]

You cant open/edit/view Word, Excel, PPT files on ANY phone. You cant play ripped DVDs.

I can open/view Word/Excel/Powerpoint/pdf on my Smartphone with Clearvue, though I cant edit. http://www.westtek.com/smartphone/ I can play ripped dvds in MP10. I can't comment on the quality or viewability, but I can play them.

[encece]

ummmm.....
I meant you cant do those thing on JUST ANY phone. But you can on a Smartphone. But thanks for helping my point. :)

You can edit on a PPC whic is why I wrote open/edit/view...open and view on a Smartphone....Open and Edit on a PPC.

BTW...you can get really great quality movies on your PPC or Smartphone if you are using the correct settings...see the article somewhere on this (and other) sites. Also...try BetaPlayer which will play other video formats like DIVX for much better quality.

[Sven Johannsen]

BTW...you can get really great quality movies on your PPC or Smartphone if you are using the correct settings...see the article somewhere on this (and other) sites. Also...try BetaPlayer which will play other video formats like DIVX for much better quality.
Ahh you forgot the JUST. And I wasn't clear either. I wasn't deprecating the quality of the videos, I've done it and been impressed by the results, but I don't do it enough to feel comfortable making a generalization about it.

[encece]

;)

[The PocketTV Team]

Actually smartphones outsell PPC phones very well, and match pocketpc sales in total (from published numbers 6 months ago).


But strangely, then, a website (and forum) like SmartphoneThoughts.com has 10 times less traffic than its sister site PocketPCThoughts.com .

And the same goes for Smartphone software: the sales by Smartphone.net are just a fraction of those by it sister site, PocketGrear.com .

Developers who support both platforms with their products makes 10 times more revenues with the Pocket PC sales.

How do you explain this? Is it because Smartphone users use their device primarily as a phone, therefore they don't install third-party applications because they find that using Smartphone as an "Intelligent device" is a real pain ? (which is the truth, really, try surfing the web from a Smartphone, you'll give up fast!)

[Mike Temporale]

But strangely, then, a website (and forum) like SmartphoneThoughts.com has 10 times less traffic than its sister site PocketPCThoughts.com .

And the same goes for Smartphone software: the sales by Smartphone.net are just a fraction of those by it sister site, PocketGrear.com .

It is interesting isn't it. We ran some polls a couple weeks back on both sites. It really helps to see the differences between users of the two devices.

SPT Poll - http://www.Smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9350&vote=viewresult
PPCT Poll - http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=43394&vote=viewresult

The question was how many applications do you have installed. On PPCT 67% of people have more than 11 applications installed with 41% of that being more than 21 applications. On SPT, it's a completely different story with only 14% of people having more than 21 applications. The majority of people have between 3 and 20 applications.

Why the difference? well, I'm not really sure, but I think it shows that Smartphone users are less likely to install just any application. I think they tend to be a little more picky. Perhaps it's an older crowd that likes to keep their devices more business orientated.

[Sven Johannsen]

How do you explain this? Is it because Smartphone users use their device primarily as a phone, therefore they don't install third-party applications because they find that using Smartphone as an "Intelligent device" is a real pain ? (which is the truth, really, try surfing the web from a Smartphone, you'll give up fast!)

The first half is accurate. With the exception of the folks that hang around here, Smartphone users bought a phone. People are used to adding ringtones and backgrounds to their phones, not applications. PPC and PPCPE users tend to understand they bought a little computer and expect to do the same things with it as they do with their desktop and laptop..including upgrade to the next OS unfortunately.

Add to that the significantly greater variety and availability of PPC format devices. I can go to BestBuy, CompUSA, Circuit City and pick up a PPC. I pretty much need to go to a carrier store and sign up for 2 years to get a phone. Then I can get a Razr for free and a WM Smartphone for $100-$200. You'd have to go the store looking for an SMT5600 or happen on a real savvy salesperson to wind up with one. Getting it on-line is even worse in my opinion.

They are different markets and different marketing.

As far as the Smartphone being a pain to use, I don't agree with that. With suitable additions, Papyrus, Facade, it is very easy to use for PIM functions. Even the way my 5600 and 220 come they are no harder to use for PIM functions than my Wife's Razr. For web browsing, if you are looking up info, news, flight times, movies playing, etc. you just need to frequent the sites that cater to mobiles. For more entertainment focused web activity, yea, they are a pain, but I think that is more a function of the data connection than the device or software.

[Mike Temporale]

The first half is accurate. With the exception of the folks that hang around here, Smartphone users bought a phone. People are used to adding ringtones and backgrounds to their phones, not applications. PPC and PPCPE users tend to understand they bought a little computer and expect to do the same things with it as they do with their desktop and laptop..including upgrade to the next OS unfortunately.

I think that hits the nail on the head right there. Excellent point. :D

[The PocketTV Team]

> As far as the Smartphone being a pain to use, I don't agree with that.

I did not say Smartphone are a pain to use.

I said they're a pain to use for things like browsing the web, reading news stories (of more than two lines), watching video, etc.

Smartphone are fine to use as phone, to store contact info, that sort of thing. And maybe to keep an eye on the subject line of your email That's about it.

Even email was not working too well last year when i tried, as the IMAP support at the time was very bad, taking about 1 hour to pool my folders for new messages!

For anything else, Smartphone are a pain, compared to Pocket PC phones or real laptops.

And despite the fact that most Smartphone version of applications are cheaper than their Pocket PC counterparts, people buy much less of them, as was confirmed by a previous poster.

And this means that in order to compare to the Pocket PC software market, the Smartphone market share would have to be 10 times, or maybe rather 100 times larger than the Pocket PC phone market share. And that's not gonna happen, my friend.

And my next intelligent phone will certainely be a small Pocket PC phone, not a Smartphone. I tried using a Smartphone before, i really tried, every day, for a month, and I disliked it a lot compared to my less-intelligent but way-more-usable and reliable and small and never-running-out-of-battery little Nokia.

[subzerohf]

And my next intelligent phone will certainely be a small Pocket PC phone, not a Smartphone. I tried using a Smartphone before, i really tried, every day, for a month, and I disliked it a lot compared to my less-intelligent but way-more-usable and reliable and small and never-running-out-of-battery little Nokia.

So, if you don't wanna use a Smartphone, does that mean you won't be visiting this forum much in the future?

[The PocketTV Team]

So, if you don't wanna use a Smartphone, does that mean you won't be visiting this forum much in the future?

I certainely will come back, since we develop software for Smartphone (and Pocket PC, too).

But clearly the effort that third-party software companis do (and will do) on the Smartphone side is limited, in relation with the relatively small revenue that Smartphone brings, in comparison to Pocket PC.

[Mike Temporale]

I think you'll find the tide will be switching over the course of the next year or two. :wink:

[encece]

In regard to the poll you took on both forums....

Handango lists over 14000 apps for the PPC
about 1400 apps for the Smartphone

The lack of selection probably accounts for much of the difference.
Less of a selection means less apps installed.

Then there are all of the freeware apps not listed on Handango which I believe many Smartphone users have installed....well, at least the cream of the crop.

Then take out all off the crap listed on Handango like Homescreens, Backdrops and ringtones...and the TownCompass crap.

But in the end the percentages are probably still accurate enough.

All that said.....

Smartphones have not been picked up by developers as much as the PPC...which in fairness has had a few years headstart.

But Developers represent the geek-masses that are the main users of both devices and PPC has so far clearly won out. The less support the Smartphone gets....the less successful it will be.

My belief is the although the Smartphone is a great device...MS lost trying to intoduce it into the mainstream. The majority of the users are still those a step ahead of the masses. This isn't MS's fault. After all, how do you make a "less than smart" or "not as smart" Smartphone?