Mobile Development No Longer Free? Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK Requires Visual Studio .NET 2005

[Kris Kumar]

Windows Mobile developers have enjoyed the benefit of having free development tools like the Microsoft eMbedded Visual Tools and that in turn has helped popularize Windows Mobile devices. Developers could adopt the Windows Mobile platform without upfront costs. This has lead to a number of free applications and has also plugged the growth of Palm. But now with Windows Mobile 5.0, it seems the developers will no longer have that luxury. I tried installing Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK for Smartphone and ran into the following error message. 8O <img src="http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/images/Kris-May2005-WMSDKVS20051.jpg" alt="User submitted image" title="User submitted image"/> I followed the link provided in the error message and found that the missing component is the Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 2005. I was stunned to find that I cannot install the SDK and view the developer reference documents. :-( :evil: What is Microsoft thinking? The developments tool required by the SDK is not free and the freebie version of the Visual Studio family, the Microsoft Visual Studio Express edition does not support mobile application development. Developers currently have to share a significant percentage of the sales with the online software stores, hosting their applications. They also have to in some cases bear the cost of getting the applications signed/certified. I know that you cannot make money without spending some. But Visual Studio development tool is not an inexpensive piece of software. I wonder if it will affect the free software market? What are your thoughts? Will this new <i>"requirement"</i> affect your development plans and most importantly the profit margin? Please share your thoughts.

[MS Mobiles]

yeah, I knew about it already last year.

however now development will be possible also with one-language visual studio, like C# or vb.net and previously one needed whole visual studio. So price dropped from 1000 USD to 299USD.

it is a pity however that these SDK can't be installed just for the emulator's sake...

[Kris Kumar]

however now development will be possible also with one-language visual studio, like C# or vb.net and previously one needed whole visual studio. So price dropped from 1000 USD to 299USD.

$299 price point is definitely not as scary as $1000. What is this version of VS called? Are you talking about the VS Express editions?

But I am really concerned about freebie app developers. Or folks who price their apps at $5.00. After the commission to the online store, they get around $2.50 in their pockets. Which means to break even they have to sell 100+ copies.

Personally I think Microsoft should enable Mobile app development in VS Express editions, which is the cheapest in the VS product line-up.

Or have a VS Mobile Edition. Which should be free as long as the developers are not selling the products.

The very least they can do is to remove the check for VS .NET 2005 from the Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK installers. :evil:

[Mike Temporale]

it is a pity however that these SDK can't be installed just for the emulator's sake...

I think I read something about the emulator being available as a stand alone app. This decision was done for people who have to present mobile applications.

[Mike Temporale]

however now development will be possible also with one-language visual studio, like C# or vb.net and previously one needed whole visual studio. So price dropped from 1000 USD to 299USD.

Oh I see, your saying that the developer doesn't have to buy the whole vs.net. They could just get visual C or Visual VB.net. While it is a solution, you loose a lot of the extra features that are loaded in the VS.net package. Plus, $299 US isn't cheap for a hobby developer that plans of doing some casual development. It's not cheap for a professional developer looking to start making mobile apps. By the time you pay for VS.net (or just Visual C) Plus application signing and then giving a cut to the online stores, you'll be lucky to recoup your invest inside of a couple years!

[Kris Kumar]

I think I read something about the emulator being available as a stand alone app. This decision was done for people who have to present mobile applications.

You are right Mike, the Emulator is a standalone application. But currently it ships with only the images for the WM2003SE for Smartphones and Pocket PCs. To get the run time images for the WM 5.0, you have to install the SDKs. :-( And that is where the trouble begins [the SDK won't install without the VS .NET 2005 Standard Edition or higher]. :evil:

I hope when Microsoft releases the final version of the Microsoft Device Emulator, they will include the images for the WM 5.0. Or make them available as a separate download. :roll:

[Jerry Raia]

This is a shame but not unexpected really. Now that MS has its foot in the door it feels it no longer needs to give away development tools. I think of all things to always give away or make cheap, development tools should be at the top of the list. There are a lot of nice little $5 apps out there. I hope this doesn't stop us from seeing more of them.

[Pony99CA]

Yes, it sucks that you can't develop true WM 5.0 applications for free, but applications developed with the free tools will still run on WM 5.0, right? You may not be able to take advantage of all of the new APIs, but your applications would also run on the significant installed base of WM 2003 and WM 2003 SE devices.

Steve

[Kris Kumar]

...but applications developed with the free tools will still run on WM 5.0, right?

Good question Steve,

The answer is yes, the programs written using eVC4/eVC3 will run on WM 5.0. But the eVC4/eVC3 cannot be used to develop or test/connect to the new Smartphone or Pocket PC.

For more information, check out this post on Windows Mobile Development Tool Support Matrix (http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2004/09/22/233071.aspx) :-)

[MS Mobiles]

$299 price point is definitely not as scary as $1000. What is this version of VS called? Are you talking about the VS Express editions?
...
The very least they can do is to remove the check for VS .NET 2005 from the Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK installers. :evil:


No, it is not Express, it is single-language and is called "Visual C#" or "Visual Basic .NET" simply. As visual studio 2005 however these single language versions are not available yet.

299USD is price in USA and in EU unfortunately it will be 299 Euro what means 377 USD (yeah, we always suffer here in EU, contrary to good old USA).

removing the check for visual studio: good idea, however I doubt Microsoft will do it - Microsoft will want to prevent in this way a trick "how to develop .NET CF applications without visual studio" that I and my friend conceived once...

[Robert Levy]

removing the check for visual studio: good idea, however I doubt Microsoft will do it - Microsoft will want to prevent in this way a trick "how to develop .NET CF applications without visual studio" that I and my friend conceived once...

Bogus. VS 2005 and the efficiency it enables is well worth the pricetag on it... but that doesn't mean there is a conspiracy to force developers into it.

For example, plans to provide a free standalone .NET Compact Framework 2.0 SDK were announced a year ago (http://blogs.msdn.com/onoj/archive/2004/05/01/124609.aspx).

I'm looking into exactly why the 5.0 SDK installers have this check and if there are workarounds. My guess is that this is just to stop people from installing things in the wrong order which, historically, has been a big problem for us. Stay tuned.

[MS Mobiles]

For example, plans to provide a free standalone .NET Compact Framework 2.0 SDK were announced a year ago (http://blogs.msdn.com/onoj/archive/2004/05/01/124609.aspx).

I'm looking into exactly why the 5.0 SDK installers have this check and if there are workarounds. My guess is that this is just to stop people from installing things in the wrong order which, historically, has been a big problem for us. Stay tuned.

It's good to hear that .NET 2.0 SDK will be also free (as version 1 was) - so that compiling and making programs for .NET for Windows Mobile 5.0 would be possible (if only Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK could be installed, see below), however...

... however the fact is that Windows Mobile 2005 SDKs cannot be installed if one doesn't have Visual Studio 2005 on his/her computer, so in effect it means that Microsoft is preventing software development for Windows Mobile 5.0 without Visual Studio (= for free).

You guess that it is just to stop people from installing things in wrong order, however please note that there it is not a warning, but a message. Not a warning "there is no visual studio 2005 installed, should I proced with installation of Windows Mobile 2005?" but instead it is a message "Visual studio 2005 is not installed in your computer, so go buy visual studio 2005 or abandon any hope to develop for Windows MObile 5.0".

Sure, please check it out, Robert, however answer must be binary: yes, or not. And for now the answer is: not. (not possible to develop without visual studio 2005, not possible to run emulators without visual studio 2005).

[SnozBerries]

I'm looking into exactly why the 5.0 SDK installers have this check and if there are workarounds. My guess is that this is just to stop people from installing things in the wrong order which, historically, has been a big problem for us. Stay tuned.

It appears to have a dependency on VS2005. I managed to install SDK on a machine w/o VS2005 using some tricks. What I then ended up with is the emulator OS images and skins, but not the actual emulator exe to loads up the images. So even if you manage to install the SDK, all that you can use from it is the documentation, which you can already access online (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/mobilesdk5/html/mob5oriWelcomeToWindowsMobile.asp).

Because the emulator has changed so much from VS2003 (it now runs ARM bits rather than i386), you will not be able to take the emulator images from the SDK and use them with the emulator included in VS2003 (yes, I tried full knowing that it wouldn't work).

[Kris Kumar]

I'm looking into exactly why the 5.0 SDK installers have this check and if there are workarounds. My guess is that this is just to stop people from installing things in the wrong order which, historically, has been a big problem for us. Stay tuned.

Thanks Robert.

Keeping my fingers crossed. :-) Hoping that the VS 2005 check in the SDK installer is a bug. ;-)

[Kris Kumar]

What I then ended up with is the emulator OS images and skins, but not the actual emulator exe to loads up the images.

The emulator is no longer part of the SDK. It is a separate application package called Microsoft Device Emulator (http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8282) [check the link to find out how you can download the emulator]. It is also bundled with the VS 2005.

[MS Mobiles]

What I then ended up with is the emulator OS images and skins, but not the actual emulator exe to loads up the images

Thanks SnozBerries! You have confirmed my darkest suspicions: Microsoft purposefully locked Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK to visual studio 2005 to prevent people from working out a way to develop software for Windows Mobile 5.0 without visual studio 2005, for free.

What it means in practice? Much less freeware will be available for Windows Mobile 5.0 - a pity.

:cry:

[MS Mobiles]

The emulator is no longer part of the SDK. It is a separate application package called Microsoft Device Emulator (http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8282) [check the link to find out how you can download the emulator]. It is also bundled with the VS 2005.

Good idea!
SnozBerries : could you try to run your hacked images with this emulator?

SnozBerries : how did you manage to install/unpack Windows Mobile 5.0 SDK without having visual studio 5.0 ?

[cortez]

ok, so we might not see free/inexpensive software again... if i see a good/quality app, i certainly don't mind paying the developer for his/her work.

let me ask a different question: what (if any) benefits are there to using Visual Studio 2005 with the new SDK? for example, will Smartphone apps (for WM 2005) behave differently, use less memory, be more stable? can they be used on Smartphones and PocketPC's? thanks in advance for your answers.

[SnozBerries]

After further consideration, I will let Robert Levy reply with his findings.

[darrylb]

For info about the new VS2005 offerings, check out http://blogs.msdn.com/smcbreen/archive/2005/04/05/405711.aspx.

As for pricing - it hasn't been announced yet, but I suspect the entry level will be well below that already stated.

There is an independant emulator available for download http://msdn.microsoft.com/mobility/windowsmobile/downloads/emulatorpreview/default.aspx

Personally - I dont think that this will be a big deal. Developing a product that is market ready is not something that many non-developers do anyway, and most who are capable of developing and releasing an app to the market will either have the tools or will be willing to pay the relatively small price to get them anyway (looking at the ROI, etc).

Free apps will always be there and free apps that are worth having require serious development effort anyway.

Feel free to disagree... I'm still forming an opinion and this is an interesting debate.

[SnozBerries]

I completely agree with darrylb.

I'm a developer. I bought VS 2003 for home use, and I write little freeware apps in my spare time because I can. I'm not looking to make any money on it. Even if I were, the costs of VS 2005 is nothing compared to the time/costs required to build/test/publish/support a commercial software product.

[Kris Kumar]

let me ask a different question: what (if any) benefits are there to using Visual Studio 2005 with the new SDK? for example, will Smartphone apps (for WM 2005) behave differently, use less memory, be more stable? can they be used on Smartphones and PocketPC's? thanks in advance for your answers.

The new SDK (for Windows Mobile 5.0) and .NET Compact Framework 2.0 together expose a lot of new functionality : access to the built-in hardware modules like the GPS, Bluetooth, Camera; it also enables a notifications system, developers can hook into events like new mail, call, battery low etc...

All these new and cool functionality will be accessible using the VS 2005 .NET only. :-( VS 2005.NET lets you develop for both Pocket PCs and Smartphones.

[Kris Kumar]

Personally - I dont think that this will be a big deal. Developing a product that is market ready is not something that many non-developers do anyway, and most who are capable of developing and releasing an app to the market will either have the tools or will be willing to pay the relatively small price to get them anyway (looking at the ROI, etc).

I agree that decent applications takes a lot of serious development effort. But having access to freebie tools, enables creative guys to put something out in the market, get feedback and improve upon it. ;-) With the new system, they will have to shell out $$$ first. I think that stops the further thought process right there. :-(

As for me, I am not a developer but an enthusiast, I usually like to play with the SDK and Development tools to get an idea for what is in it. And then see if I can help the community by providing helpful answers. The fact that I cannot even install the SDK for reference docs is bugging me a lot. :evil: And the thought that I cannot write a single line of code for WM 5.0 is bugging me even more. :roll:

[Soyale]

Don't forget, you can also get hold of Visual Studio 2005 Beta 2 for a very nominal cost if you want to try out the new features and see if you think it's a tool worth buying.

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/get/

James

[Robert Levy]

Ok here's the deal...

The SDK itself has a number of technical (not political) dependencies on Visual Studio which is why VS must be installed first. Plans to have a free .NET Compact Framework 2.0 SDK are unchanged. The reference documentation for Windows Mobile 5.0 is now online in the MSDN Library. A free standalone emulator for Windows Mobile 5.0 is in the works (this is something we've never done before) and will be available once we've worked out a few bugs in the installer.

[Kris Kumar]

Ok here's the deal...

The SDK itself has a number of technical (not political) dependencies on Visual Studio which is why VS must be installed first. Plans to have a free .NET Compact Framework 2.0 SDK are unchanged. The reference documentation for Windows Mobile 5.0 is now online in the MSDN Library. A free standalone emulator for Windows Mobile 5.0 is in the works (this is something we've never done before) and will be available once we've worked out a few bugs in the installer.

Thanks Robert

Standalone emulator, MSDN documentation and free .NET CF SDK will definitely help the mobile developer community and the enthusiasts. :clap:

Does Microsoft have any plans to have trial versions of VS.NET 2005? If the tools are not free, then there are two options:
1. Provide trial versions, so that budding mobile developers can experiment.
OR
2. Make VS.NET 2005 free for non-commercial purposes. [this one is tricky] ;-)

[Soyale]

I anticipate that we will make trial versions available although I'm not directly responsible for that decision it is certainly in our interests.

It's unlikely we'll make the tools available for "non-commercial use".

Regards

James

[darrylb]

Adding to the already strong MS response :-)

VS2005 is currently available for download via http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/get/default.aspx. In addition, you can order the DVD from country specific order pages. Here in New Zealand you can get Visual Studio 2005 B2 for free on DVD (it includes SQL 2005 too) from http://www.microsoft.com/nz/evaluate/products/vs2005.aspx (NOTE - NZ ONLY).

Once the product has RTM'd there is normally free trials available for download/order (this is currently the case with VS2003), but like James I'm not in charge of such decisions and cant say one way or another.

[Kris Kumar]

Adding to the already strong MS response :-)

Microsoft sure has outnumbered the developer response. ;-)

Hey Developers! Where are you folks hiding...come out and support the cause for free tools. :lol: :rotfl:

[Kris Kumar]

Once the product has RTM'd there is normally free trials available for download/order (this is currently the case with VS2003), but like James I'm not in charge of such decisions and cant say one way or another.

When will the product pricing information become available? Is there a plan for $299 version of VS .NET 2005?

[Mike Temporale]

Once the product has RTM'd there is normally free trials available for download/order (this is currently the case with VS2003), but like James I'm not in charge of such decisions and cant say one way or another.

When will the product pricing information become available? Is there a plan for $299 version of VS .NET 2005?

It won't be VS.Net unless you're dealing with an upgrade. Microsoft has always sold the individual language tool. You could always buy VB.Net, VC.Net, VC#.Net, etc.. if you didn't want the whole VS.Net. I wouldn't expect this pratice to change.

[Neil]

Just to add to what Robert mentioned earlier, the SDK docs Windows Mobile 5.0 can be accessed directly from http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/mobilesdk5/html/mob5oriWelcomeToWindowsMobile.asp. I used it just now to look something up :)

Also, there's no word on when pricing will be out for Visual Studio 2005. But note that the device development features are now supported in the Standard version, not just Professional, which will be a BIG help when it comes to price. And, as others have mentioned, there will almost certainly be trial versions available for download when we release.

Neil

[Peter Foot]

Pricing for Visual Studio (or at least a fairly close estimate) can be found here:-
http://msdn.microsoft.com/howtobuy/vs2005

Visual Studio 2005 Standard Edition is a multi-language product - C
, C++, VB, J# with expected retail price of $299 USD ($199 upgrade)

There is no mention on the site of single language products (other than the Express range which as already noted don't support device development)

Peter

[itsme]

use 'orca' from the platform sdk ( see orca.msi )

load the msi file in ora,
edit the 'Property' table, and change 'SupportOnlyWhidbey' to '0'

then it will install without requiring vstudio 8.0

willem