How Important is a Removable Storage Card to You? [Archive]

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 08:41 PM

BobbyCannon

11-10-2010, 08:55 PM

Have a non-removable card is much better. I come from Windows Mobile and I have to say it is really nice not having to think about were my "stuff" is stored. I love it that Windows Phone merges the two memories together and it just works.

Even on my Windows Mobile device I never removed the card. MicroSDHC cards are too small to be handling anyway...

Craig Horlacher

11-10-2010, 09:03 PM

In WinMo day's I used it often. Since I got my Droid X(I know, I'm posting in the wrong forum but I didn't see this on Android Thoughts) it's very rare.

I used to love having an sd slot so I could take pictures with my point and shoot, take the card out, and review them on my 4" screen Pocket PC. Even with a microSD card slot I had an sd adapter that I would put it in so I could use it in my camera. It was also handy to transfer files to PC's. People often had card reader's around even if they didn't have a mini-usb cable.

With my Droid X I think two major things have changed. It has DLNA which I use to put photo's on my PS3 now. It has an awesome camera! At least for outdoor shots it's excellent! Video too! I can even get good indoor shots sometimes. I use my point and shoot much less and, since I have a good Facebook app, I can easily upload pictures directly to facebook without using my PC or PS3. It was just clunky, at least for me, in WinMo.

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 09:35 PM

I used to love having an sd slot so I could take pictures with my point and shoot, take the card out, and review them on my 4" screen Pocket PC. Even with a microSD card slot I had an sd adapter that I would put it in so I could use it in my camera. It was also handy to transfer files to PC's. People often had card reader's around even if they didn't have a mini-usb cable.

Yeah, I think back in the SD card days, there was a natural device to device synergy - but for me at least, when the switch to miniSD then microSD happened, it basically killed that scenario. It wasn't easy or convenient, so I basically went back to there being no interaction between my camera and my phone.

iharkins

11-10-2010, 09:55 PM

I think the real reason people are taking issue with the lack of removable storage on WP7 is due to the low capacities of most of the WP7 handsets. If WP7 is to compete with the iPhone then there should be options available for 32GB or more.

8GB is woefully inadequate and ruled out every phone here in the UK other than the HD7 and the LG which both have 16GB. I went with the HD7 in the end but 16GB doesn't go that far. I'm happy enough with the HD7 but the next generate of WP7 handsets really has to sort this out and increase the capacity to at least 32GB if they're to be taken seriously.

benjimen

11-10-2010, 10:01 PM

GreatDay

11-10-2010, 10:02 PM

Like you, I don't ever remove the thing, but the idea of being able to and the option to swap in one for movies and what-not was always intriguing. I'm also one who has a ton of apps for "just in case" that also never get used. Maybe it's time to get-over-it; I just always initially fight these changes that suddenly take away choices. Guess we'll see how this all shakes out.

Lee Yuan Sheng

11-10-2010, 10:20 PM

I think the move to microSD has curbed the desire to swap cards. They're so tiny and flaky that my mindset is to just leave them in there.

WyattEarp

11-10-2010, 10:23 PM

Wow, I haven't used an SD card in like 4 years now. I switched from a WM device to an iPhone back in 2007. I thought SD cards in devices were nice until it just became a chore to remember what was on each on. After using an iPhone, switching SDs on a mobile phone just seems antiquated. I think they're fine for cameras and video cameras but not for phones. Once you get a device with 16 or 32GB on it, memory cards become useless. It's no different than the iPod, Zune or any worthwhile media player which will have lots of flash storage over the use of memory cards. My only issue with the use of memory cards in WP is how it wipes the device if removed. It would have been more efficient to use built-in storage instead of going the cheaper route. On top of that these devices cost the same as an iPhone for example but with less memory. The also require specific types of memory cards that meet WP standards which I'm willing to bet won't be the cheap cars many like to purchase. I see the while HDSD thing happening again.

Ed Hansberry

11-10-2010, 10:31 PM

In the old days, I'd swap cards between my phone and camera, but SD/MicroSD has killed that today as Jason pointed out.

Now, I never remove the card, unless I get a new phone or larger capacity card, and I haven't done either in almost 2 years.

paschott

11-10-2010, 10:38 PM

I've done it in the past just to get faster transfers, but more with the physically larger cards. The smaller ones just aren't as convenient with the need for an adapter of some sort to read them. Still did it in rare cases but not as often.

Now I still think the idea of expandable storage is a great one. I don't need it to be swappable, but I really like the idea of being able to extend, especially as the manufacturers have opted for smaller storage spaces and sometimes for the bare minimum. It's the main reason I opted for the Samsung Focus when I switched to WP7.

Fritzly

11-10-2010, 10:45 PM

The point is not how often I swap card but the convenience, if I want to do it, to EXPAND the amount of available memory.
16 GB is barely enough for me and I lke to have a safe margin. Try to answer this question: would you buy a computer with not expandable memory or HD?
To make things worse the ability to increase storage capacity was there....... till WP7 so it is a step backward.
Btw all my SD cards have always been encripted as well as HDs on my Tablet PCs. The reason MS introduced this "novelty" is to force people to deal with its own market; simple as that.
In order to improve speed.............. do not go with cheap SD cards, copy Apple completely and use flash memory.

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 10:48 PM

I think the real reason people are taking issue with the lack of removable storage on WP7 is due to the low capacities of most of the WP7 handsets. If WP7 is to compete with the iPhone then there should be options available for 32GB or more.

The question was designed to find out which people need to swap cards, and which people don't. The issue of what is sufficient storage is a separate one; if I can solve the problem of a phone only coming with 8 GB of storage (which I agree is pathetic), then that's all I need from a storage card. If I were to muddy the question by introducing the storage factor, it would only confuse the results.

If you're going to take a 32 GB microSD card and put it in the phone and leave it there, then there's a poll answer for you to select. :)

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 10:52 PM

I think a more appropriate and relavent question would be "why bother". This hairbrained hard-resetting to upgrade your available storage with memory that is much slower than what could be on-board doesn't make any sense at all. If it's not removable, why bother with a card?

It's simple: because all of the phone on the market only come with 8 GB or 16 GB. You say that 32 GB is plenty for you, but there isn't a 32 GB Windows Phone on the market today...so the question is very relevant because most of us putting in a card and leaving it there are doing so to get the enhanced storage.

The purpose of a storage card has always been for the convenience of swapping it out, this isn't likely something Microsoft will be re-defining with the consumer-public.

So far 59% of people voting in the poll would disagree with you; the purpose of a storage card is to add storage capacity to your device. The ability to take it out and use it on another device is a secondary scenario for most people it seems - hence the reason why I did the poll.

benjimen

11-10-2010, 11:04 PM

Call it as you wish, personally, it's lipstick-on-a-pig to most ;)

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 11:06 PM

Call it as you wish, personally, it's lipstick-on-a-pig to most ;)

But what's your "solution" then? To refuse to buy a Windows Phone 7 until someone ships it with 32 GB? That seems rather extreme when you can buy a phone with 8 GB or 16 GB and put a 32 GB card in there to get 40 to 48 GB of storage. :confused:

Jason Dunn

11-10-2010, 11:08 PM

The point is not how often I swap card but the convenience, if I want to do it, to EXPAND the amount of available memory. 16 GB is barely enough for me and I lke to have a safe margin.

I'm exactly the same way, so the answer is "basically never" because how often do you buy bigger microSD memory cards? Maybe one upgrade in the life of your phone?

Btw all my SD cards have always been encripted as well as HDs on my Tablet PCs. The reason MS introduced this "novelty" is to force people to deal with its own market; simple as that. In order to improve speed.............. do not go with cheap SD cards, copy Apple completely and use flash memory.

You're welcome to believe what you want, but I was told by a Microsoft Windows Phone team member that the primary reason they did it was for speed - it's a database on the card, where all content is indexed. Each app knows what's on the card, rather than the old method of having to brute-force scan a card to get the contents of it.

All things being equal, I agree that going the Apple route and using fast flash memory would be ideal - but things aren't equal. Apple buys so much flash memory, and gets it at such a discount, that other OEMs have difficulty competing with the storage and price that Apple offers. It sucks, but it's reality.

Richard76

11-11-2010, 12:20 AM

First of all let me begin by saying, WOW Jason. Moving from the Jack to an HD2. How are you getting on with the size difference and lack of hardware keyboard? You have always been a "smartphone with keyboard" kind of guy.

I digress. I voted for A. I remove my microSD frequently...sometimes several times a day. However, let me qualify this. I have a disease called "gadget fever". I never seem to be able to decide which device I want to use and the ability to switch SIM's and my 16GB microSD with all my media, many programs and navigation software allows me to do this. I also back up a complete copy of my device to the microSD so if I have a "crash" when I am on the road (which is frequently), I can restore without waiting until I get home. Can we do this with WP7?

And, I have always been in the habit of throwing a back-up device in my briefcase when I travel for kind of the same reason and/or if I lost my device while away.

Do I need to do this? Probably not but I would have to settle on a device that I absolutely love without equivocation or reservation to make that work. As of yet, I haven't found that device.

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 12:43 AM

First of all let me begin by saying, WOW Jason. Moving from the Jack to an HD2. How are you getting on with the size difference and lack of hardware keyboard? You have always been a "smartphone with keyboard" kind of guy.

It was definitely an adjustment - the software keyboard on the HD2 is massively inferior to the hardware keyboard on the Blackjack, but the huge, gorgeous screen on the HD2 and the rich functionality of HTC Sense won me over. I don't miss my Blackjack at all...well, except when I'm writing an email or text. :D The HTC keyboard has a pretty huge suck-factor sometimes.

I have a disease called "gadget fever". I never seem to be able to decide which device I want to use and the ability to switch SIM's and my 16GB microSD with all my media, many programs and navigation software allows me to do this.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd say that puts you in a tiny percentage of power users...there aren't many people willing to do that. Myself included. ;)

I also back up a complete copy of my device to the microSD so if I have a "crash" when I am on the road (which is frequently), I can restore without waiting until I get home. Can we do this with WP7?

My understanding is that the Zune software can back up your device - but only after Microsoft releases the first update. So it's not a real "backup at will" service, more like a "Oh no, that update just screwed up my device, I need to roll it back".

Richard76

11-11-2010, 01:45 AM

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 02:15 AM

Do you know how comprehensive the Zune back up will be? Right now I use PIM Backup and it is great. I also started using Microsoft MyPhone once it was available just for the "ease of use" and "extra backup" factors but it's still a lot of work/time to restore a device.

My understanding is that it's a complete device state backup; meaning that, if you want to roll back after an update, it restores *everything* to the previous state - but that means you'll lose photos you added, etc.

benjimen

11-11-2010, 11:03 AM

But what's your "solution" then? To refuse to buy a Windows Phone 7 until someone ships it with 32 GB? That seems rather extreme when you can buy a phone with 8 GB or 16 GB and put a 32 GB card in there to get 40 to 48 GB of storage. :confused:
Basically yes, I'll wait. I'd like faster RAM, and I'd like it onboard. The next ones will be better, with more built in (faster) memory. I'm fine with 32, but would prefer 64. if mixed-mode storage involves slower and at times highly unreliable MicroSD cards, I won't be onboard -- enjoy yours though.

Monty Gibson

11-11-2010, 04:39 PM

But what's your "solution" then? To refuse to buy a Windows Phone 7 until someone ships it with 32 GB? That seems rather extreme when you can buy a phone with 8 GB or 16 GB and put a 32 GB card in there to get 40 to 48 GB of storage. :confused:

Jason,

How do you go about putting in a 32 GB card to obtain the higher storage space. I've been away for a very long time (moving, lost a job, you know... life) and I haven't had time to keep up with things. So, is there a tutorial on how to crack it open or is it something easier? I've had my 16 GB card in my Touch Pro 2 since day one and haven't really taken it out since. However; I do not like the fact that I am "limited" to what I can and cannot do with a WP7 device. But I did stop in T-Mobile the other day and must say that I love the device (HD7) and it's just going to get better over time IMHO, this is only v1.0. So, I am sure that HTC et. al., will push out other devices that will "satisfy" the masses. But, I am curious to know how to increase my storage space.

Thanks,
Monty Gibson

Sven Johannsen

11-11-2010, 05:21 PM

My understanding is that it's a complete device state backup; meaning that, if you want to roll back after an update, it restores *everything* to the previous state - but that means you'll lose photos you added, etc.
Even before any sort of device backup solution, the cloud centric philosophy actually makes some of this less of an issue. Given that your PIM data is in Live, and assuming your Zune and Xbox stuff is tied to the same ID, 'restoring' a phone is actually relatively painless. Not quite like restoring a day or week old image, but all your personal stuff will come back.

If you have set up a WP7 with a Live ID, you will have experienced having all your information, contacts, calendar, etc. delivered to your device over the air. Once you re-connect to the app store, your apps will re-download and install. If you have things set up appropriately, all the pics on your camera roll will have been sync'd to the cloud and will still be available.

I've actually had the opportunity to use one WP7, set it up for myself, return it and get another. The second one was really only a matter of entering my ID and letting it go fetch. Wasn't even the same kind of device, something that wasn't possible with the old image to the SD card backup scheme. There certainly are things that will need some attention, but IMHO, the majority of really important things are backup up and recoverable, just because of the nature of the beast.

DangDude

11-11-2010, 06:11 PM

My understanding is that it's a complete device state backup; meaning that, if you want to roll back after an update, it restores *everything* to the previous state - but that means you'll lose photos you added, etc.

Some years ago, my PDA suffered a catastrophic data failure (dropping it in the toilet tends to do that). Although I made regular backups, which were kept on an external device, I never tested the restore, and learned that while my game scores were easily recovered, silly things like contacts, appointments, notes, etc were gone. When I replaced the device (with an Axim51v), the first thing I did was confirm that I had a full-cycle backup and recovery capability. I can safely perform a hard reset on my PDA and fully recover from the backup on the SD card in about 20 minutes. I remove the SD card on a weekly basis and copy its contents (including the recovery file and any other data I've stored on the chip) to an external hard drive (one that I don't carry with me, and especially not into the loo).

I'm curious about the speed and cost (if I am not on an unlimited data plan) to do that for 16GB of data. My current backup is about 2GB in size.

Whenever I move to a SmartPhone (and WinPhone7 might be the ticket to get me there), I'm dreading talking with the clerk and asking about backup and recovery procedures.

MadSci

11-11-2010, 07:10 PM

Like most people I'm not in the habit of swapping MicroSD Cards from my phones oftern, however, I've had 16Gb cards in my phones for almost 2 years and I usually have only a few Gb free! Most is taken up by Music, Photos and Programs - all things that are important to the User Experience. So the 8Gb phone that are launching are non-starters for this reason alone!

Why would I move to a phone that is LESS useful because it requires me to DECREASE the amount of information and entertainment I can carry around?

The last point is even more critical. My expereince with WM Devices and SD/miniDS/microSD cards is about 8 years long, and the two main reasons for pullling cards has been card failures and moving to a new or alternative handset.

I've NEVER had on-board memory failures, but the SD card failure rate is pretty dang high - I think I have had to replace 4 of them over the years. Pretending that these cards are 'just like' real onboard memory is rediculous, and it's goiing to lead to a lot of returned WM7 Handsets, and when people have to start paying for Service that amounts to having these cards replaced there will be a lot of bad press for WM7. It will be the fault of the handset and card manufacturers, but MSoft IS trying to brand these phones as theirs and THEY set the hardware standards.

And when I want to buy a new phone to transfer my 8Gb of memory to my new phone - how will that happen? Want to swap Handsets for the night, or while you go off hiking? Ever tried to copy your microSD card while it' still in your phone? Good luck with that.

This is another example of how clueless MSoft is, casued by the fact that they are used to the Carriers being their Customers, NOT the Phone Owners. This is a fundamental problem that is going to dog WM Phones for as long as it takes MSoft to realize the problem and fix it. By then, they will have again tarnished their reputation, think Windows Me and Vista - but unlike their PC OS business, there will be no workplace requirements driving Consumers to grit their teeth and once again put up with their buggy crapware until they get it right.

WM7 = FAIL

MadSci

Fellwalker

11-11-2010, 07:31 PM

You commented that there was an answer for someone who wanted to put in a useful sized card and leave it there - but the option only half covers that.

I've not swapped the micro SD card in my HD2 since I got it - but that is because I got 16GB which was at the time more than i needed. Now it is getting full. I want to keep a phone for a few years, so as memory gets much cheaper, and allows me to take more stuff with me, I'd like to be able to upgrade that memory.

What I cannot understand is why windows (or any other) phones do not come with two memories
- one big one (not necessarily swappable) for the programs, so that there is no mucking about choosing where to install.
- one swappable for data - music, books, downloads, cab files and so on.

I wouldn't consider having my desktop PC without that split - it has allowed me to upgrade my data disks many times without reinstalling software.

The other issue is battery life - if I use my HD2 to its full extent, it barely lasts a day. The HD7 has the same battery, and many other WP7 devices seem to have small battery lives (IF USED AS A PDA not just a phone). At least it is swappable, but there is no scope to increase the size without an ugly bulge. I feel that manufacturers have lost a trick when a small increase in overall size could make a phone so much better. Had I realised just what a limitation it could be, I might have stuck with my hx4700 (CF card and SD card, both swappable) and V3im!

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 07:38 PM

Basically yes, I'll wait. I'd like faster RAM, and I'd like it onboard. The next ones will be better, with more built in (faster) memory. I'm fine with 32, but would prefer 64. if mixed-mode storage involves slower and at times highly unreliable MicroSD cards, I won't be onboard -- enjoy yours though.

That's fine of course - but, for some of us, moving to a new platform - one that's so fast and smooth it makes the previous one look pretty bad in comparison - is worth whatever hiccups occur as a result of using a secondary storage card.

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 07:52 PM

How do you go about putting in a 32 GB card to obtain the higher storage space. I've been away for a very long time (moving, lost a job, you know... life) and I haven't had time to keep up with things. So, is there a tutorial on how to crack it open or is it something easier?

It depends on the device. On the Samsung Focus, the storage card is right out in the open - you just pop a card in. On the HTC HD7, it's under a metal panel I think. On the Dell Venue Pro, it's under a warranty label.

benjimen

11-11-2010, 07:55 PM

That's fine of course - but, for some of us, moving to a new platform - one that's so fast and smooth it makes the previous one look pretty bad in comparison - is worth whatever hiccups occur as a result of using a secondary storage card.

Right... I did stop by the AT&T store and monopolized the Samsung Focus for a while, and was impressed with the OS, loved all the little animation effects -- a lot of attention to detail without slowing the device and such huge improvement over the twirling WM logo in the middle of your screen while stuff is going on.

WM6.5 encouraged me to dump the platform I'd been using since the first HP monochrome Windows clamshell device -- WP7.5 along with improved hardware will most likely pry the iPhone out of my hand.

Competition is great -- the options a year from now will make it hard to choose. Just because Microsoft had an unorganized launch with lackluster hardware isn't reason to write-off the product line.

I don't believe the survey that started this topic thread is representative of much, other than the opinions of mostly current WM users planning to upgrade to WP7, or those who already have.

Can't wait for that one device that'll ship with 64gb of storage onboard, with the option to add 32 more (an expansion slot I'd probably never need)...

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 08:04 PM

Even before any sort of device backup solution, the cloud centric philosophy actually makes some of this less of an issue. Given that your PIM data is in Live, and assuming your Zune and Xbox stuff is tied to the same ID, 'restoring' a phone is actually relatively painless. Not quite like restoring a day or week old image, but all your personal stuff will come back.

True - it's definitely a quantum leap beyond the old way...especially the app re-install. With a hosted Exchange account, when I had to hard reset my wife's WM 6.1 phone, I just entered in her Exchange sync info, and she had everything she needed to keep using the phone.

The *one* problem with the new method is the data transfer it uses - I'm looking at my bill here and I can see the day I got the prototype phone - 36 MB on the first day, 22 MB on the second day, 21 MB on the fourth day, 47 MB on the fifth day, etc. I only have 1 GB of data shared between myself and my wife, so I have some concerns that Microsoft is assuming everyone has unlimited data plans and they don't need to be smart about how much bandwidth this stuff uses.

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 08:14 PM

I can safely perform a hard reset on my PDA and fully recover from the backup on the SD card in about 20 minutes. I remove the SD card on a weekly basis and copy its contents (including the recovery file and any other data I've stored on the chip) to an external hard drive (one that I don't carry with me, and especially not into the loo).

Windows Phone 7 is not the device for you; it lacks the kind of thing you're looking for, unless you're willing to give up some of that control. It's too soon to tell if Windows Phone 7 will have the stability required to avoid such extreme backup procedures, but so far my view of it is that it's more like Windows 7 and Windows Mobile 6.5 is like Windows XP. Back in the XP days I'd create system images and restore every six months because my system had become so sluggish and unstable; since the Vista days, I no longer worry about that sort of thing.

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 08:19 PM

You commented that there was an answer for someone who wanted to put in a useful sized card and leave it there - but the option only half covers that. I've not swapped the micro SD card in my HD2 since I got it - but that is because I got 16GB which was at the time more than i needed. Now it is getting full. I want to keep a phone for a few years, so as memory gets much cheaper, and allows me to take more stuff with me, I'd like to be able to upgrade that memory.

"Basically never - it hasn't moved since I put it in my phone." is the answer here.

How often, really, do you upgrade to a bigger storage card? microSD cards are so cheap, most people have 8 GB of 16 GB cards...so what's the upgrade? 32 GB. How often do new memory card sizes come out that are affordable? Maybe once every couple of years? The idea of the survey was to separate out the people who put in a storage card and leave it there for a long time from the people who are truly using it as removable storage, taking it in and out on a fairly regular.

Come on, there's no need to be THAT picky about surveys. :) It's not life or death...

Fritzly

11-11-2010, 09:42 PM

Fritzly

11-11-2010, 09:48 PM

That's fine of course - but, for some of us, moving to a new platform - one that's so fast and smooth it makes the previous one look pretty bad in comparison - is worth whatever hiccups occur as a result of using a secondary storage card.

Fast and smooth: yes
Full of potential: yes
A lot of shortcomings: yes

For the time being I am back to WM 6.5; hopefully MS will exploit the great potential they created and I will be able to come back.

Jason Dunn

11-11-2010, 10:14 PM

The problem arise if someone, like me for example, do not want to put data in the cloud.

Yeah, if you're a "I want nothing in the cloud" kind of guy, Windows Phone 7 is useless for you because there's no desktop sync solution for PIM data or email. Incredibly, the best current phone on the market for someone who's using desktop PIM software is...an iPHONE!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Besides unless I am missing something, very likely indeed, is it possible to back up SMS in WP7? With this HD7 I cannot find a way to do it anymore; of course with the HD2 it happened automatically every night........

I have an HD2 and there's nothing in it that automatically backs up SMS - it only does that if you install Microsoft's My Phone service (I'm assuming that's what you did?). Right now on Windows Phone 7 there isn't that functionality, but I'm very confident they'll be adding it ASAP...they know it's something that people want.

Fritzly

11-11-2010, 10:46 PM

Yeah, if you're a "I want nothing in the cloud" kind of guy, Windows Phone 7 is useless for you because there's no desktop sync solution for PIM data or email. Incredibly, the best current phone on the market for someone who's using desktop PIM software is...an iPHONE!!! :eek::eek::eek:

I have an HD2 and there's nothing in it that automatically backs up SMS - it only does that if you install Microsoft's My Phone service (I'm assuming that's what you did?). Right now on Windows Phone 7 there isn't that functionality, but I'm very confident they'll be adding it ASAP...they know it's something that people want.

Yes I do it with MyPhone which is included in your HD2 and WM OS, you just need to sign-in; will WP7 get a MyPhone service, Soiltaire, the ability to encript the content of the phone, Updates straight from MS etc.? I hope so and if and when I will almost surely buy one again. I say "almost" because I do not know what the competition will offer at the time; the only "Futures" I deal with are in the stock market so I am not going to pay for a smartphone today hoping that in, the future, the features I need, features that the previous OS had, will be added.

As for the iPhone, no thanks it is not for me; very similar to WP7, closed system. WM 6.5 will do for now.... Tomorrow...... we will see, the money is in the wallet.....

Sven Johannsen

11-11-2010, 11:53 PM

Yes I do it with MyPhone which is included in your HD2 and WM OS, you just need to sign-in;Might be included with the HD2, but isn't part of WM OS. It's an application on the device that is loaded by the OEM or owner.
will WP7 get a MyPhone service, Sort of has it. Doesn't require an app on the device though whose function in my experience is to start and fail to sync everything. WP7 you are in an 'exchange' client sort of relationship where the phone mirrors the cloud contents. Change one place and it is sync'd to the other(s). Not at 2AM, or once a day, but when it happens. I can make a calendar entry on my WP7 and check Windows Live calendar on the web moments later and it's there.
Soiltaire, No, doesn't come with it installed. No need for 'mouse training'. It is available in many forms.
the ability to encript the content of the phone, Not sure it's not, but what do you mean? If you password your phone, that is the first level. On WP7 you can't take the memory out and read it. You can wipe the phone remotely as well from a web interface. Whole thing as the memory is one blob.
Updates straight from MS etc.?.That's the promise.

Fritzly

11-12-2010, 12:31 AM

That's the promise.
By whom? Not by Joe Belfiore, corporate vice president and director of Windows Phone Program Management

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/update-has-microsoft-put-windows-phone-7-updates-in-the-hands-of-the-carriers/10314

Bottom line: I do not gamble and if I wish to do..... I go to Vegas

As I said if MS will deliver I will buy a WP7.XX back.....

Monty Gibson

11-12-2010, 04:33 AM

It depends on the device. On the Samsung Focus, the storage card is right out in the open - you just pop a card in. On the HTC HD7, it's under a metal panel I think. On the Dell Venue Pro, it's under a warranty label.

Which class of SD card? There is class 2 up to class 10. Will WinMo7 read a class 10 SD Card?

Thanks,
Monty Gibson

Fellwalker

11-12-2010, 01:24 PM

"Basically never - it hasn't moved since I put it in my phone." is the answer here.

How often, really, do you upgrade to a bigger storage card? microSD cards are so cheap, most people have 8 GB of 16 GB cards...so what's the upgrade? 32 GB. How often do new memory card sizes come out that are affordable? Maybe once every couple of years? The idea of the survey was to separate out the people who put in a storage card and leave it there for a long time from the people who are truly using it as removable storage, taking it in and out on a fairly regular.

Come on, there's no need to be THAT picky about surveys. :) It's not life or death...

No, its not life or death, but with phones costing £400 or more, if I had a fixed 8GB I would have run out of space now, and I would be very frustrated at having to change my whole phone to get a bigger memory. Not quite life or death, but i might end up looking like your avatar!

labens

11-12-2010, 03:55 PM

For me, the desire for microSD card is twofold:

1) I like to have a card with movies on it for when I travel. I'll swap it in when I'm on a plane. Without microSD (such as with my old HTC Tough Diamond) I would have to delete stuff off the internal storage and usually have room for fewer movies than I wanted to copy. Further, having to tether a phone to a computer for some time to copy several gigabytes of data is inconvenient.

2) Every once in a while when a phone needs to be replaced (due to malfunction or upgrade), it is nice to be able to just pop out the microSD with all my programs, data, and PIM backup and put it in the new phone. Then with minimal effort, I've got everything I need to get the new phone up and running.

Obviously Windows Phone 7 changes how all this works in relation to the Windows Mobile that I am familiar with. Given all these changes, even if for the better, if all the apps I've purchased over the years can't run on the new OS, then I have very little incentive to upgrade any time soon and will consider all OS options when I eventually do.

One more note: Encryption of removable media has never been important to me. As I do not like to lock my phone, chances are that if I lose it the data is vulnerable no matter what.

whydidnt

11-12-2010, 04:16 PM

I think the real reason people are taking issue with the lack of removable storage on WP7 is due to the low capacities of most of the WP7 handsets. If WP7 is to compete with the iPhone then there should be options available for 32GB or more.

My thoughts exactly. Being able to remove the memory is nice, but isn't something I have to have. However, if you aren't going to give me 32 GB to begin with, then, at least let me upgrade myself. I've done this with both the Droid X and now with the Samsung Tab I picked up yesterday. I have about 14 GB of music I like to carry - I'm lazy and don't want to have to sync to change the music on my device. 16 GB does not allow for all my music, app storage, photos and movies I like to have with me.

It just puts WP7 at a disadvantage when you can get a 32 GB device on EVERY other smartphone platform, but no WP7 (at least not officially supported).

Torque

11-12-2010, 04:19 PM

I have SD Cards that I used in a Samsung Blackjack, Palm Centro, and then a Blackberry 8310. I traded the Blackberry in for a Palm Pre +, which did not have an SD Card slot. I now use those SD Cards in my laptop, but when I used them in Smartphones that had slots for them, I'd install programs and run them from the SD Cards. I'd also save photos and videos on them. WP7 already lacks on board storage with 8GB in most cases, so allowing SD cards to not only be used on the phone but swapped out, would be optimal. The fact that you can't use an SD card on anything else after inserting it into a WP7 device, is one reason I won't be getting one. Apparently others feel that way too (40,000 sold on first day?)

AJ_Blackwell

11-12-2010, 08:13 PM

Personally speaking, NOT having removable storage is a show stopper for me and for that reason I threw down the necessary cash for an HTC HD2 as it will have to be my primary device for quite some time based on this direction. I utilize my 16gb storage as my primary hard drive when working on either my Laptop PC, or my WinMobile devices. It contains all my active documents, selected Music, favourite photos, and either on this 16gb card or my several 8gb cards I also store current TV shows / Movies for the hour long train ride commute each way everyday. I also have a separate card to store both my North American & European GPS maps (4gb) for when I use the device for a driving GPS.
:o<O:p</O:p
To transfer/load the data from the PC, I believe the transfer rate on the card reader in my “PCI Express slot” is a lot faster than what I would get if cabling the device to a USB port.
<O:p</O:p
Having the options & flexibility was always at the root of Microsoft’s designs and was way I could not conform to Apple’s “one size fits all” approach. I have nor problem with closed systems that are deliver solutions to suit the general masses, just don’t cut off all the fringe markets/users that need (and likely pay) for solutions that serve them best.
<O:p</O:p
If a demographic was done on the “type of user” (i.e. Device heavily integrated, use different devices for different purposes, primarily use the device as a phone) that doesn’t need removable storage and those that do, the “types would likely be grouped in a similar fashion to how this poll is answered.
<O:p</O:p
Others thoughts….?

maxnix

11-12-2010, 08:20 PM

Why would I not want to import tunes and photgraphs and documents directly to the card?

Overthinking on MS part. Concetrate on copy and paste and let the consumer decide about storage cards.

Jason Dunn

11-12-2010, 08:43 PM

Which class of SD card? There is class 2 up to class 10. Will WinMo7 read a class 10 SD Card?

Yes, Windows Phone 7 devices should all have SDHC readers in them, so any microSD card up to 32 GB will work. From Class 2 to Class 10, they should all work.

Jason Dunn

11-12-2010, 08:49 PM

No, its not life or death, but with phones costing £400 or more, if I had a fixed 8GB I would have run out of space now, and I would be very frustrated at having to change my whole phone to get a bigger memory. Not quite life or death, but i might end up looking like your avatar!

I'm not disagreeing with you - in fact, I'm buying the Samsung Focus primarily because it has an easy to access microSD slot. It's important to me because 8 GB of on-board storage is pathetic.

I was simply referring to the survey - I'm surprised that some people are so agitated by me not having a response that fits them PERFECTLY. One has to generalize when one is creating a survey. :D

Jason Dunn

11-12-2010, 08:53 PM

Why would I not want to import tunes and photgraphs and documents directly to the card?

But if you had desktop software that did it for you - well, not the documents part, but the photos, music and videos - why would you want to manage it yourself? :confused:

ucfgrad93

11-12-2010, 09:22 PM

Not important at all. I have a 16GB iPhone which is more than enough storage for me.

maxnix

11-12-2010, 09:37 PM

.....the purpose of a storage card is to add storage capacity to your device. The ability to take it out and use it on another device is a secondary scenario for most people it seems - hence the reason why I did the poll.

But MS obviates this secondary option and ties the user physically and formatically to the W7 phone. This is Apple think, not flexible usability thinking.

Are we sure Steve Jobs isn't somehow involved here?

maxnix

11-12-2010, 09:40 PM

Not important at all. I have a 16GB iPhone which is more than enough storage for me.

Then what are you doing here? Think replacing a battery in the field will be the next "insane" Apple "innovation."

epdm2be

11-13-2010, 05:57 PM

<p>It's poll time! As you know, Windows Phone 7 devices do not allow for removable storage cards in the traditional sense; even if you happen to find a phone with a microSD card slot that you can access, once you put a card in that slot it will force a hard reset. If you take the card out, it's unreadable on any device but your phone - the data on it is encrypted for speed and security. That essentially makes it non-removable storage. So the question is, does this matter to you? For me, it doesn't - I have an 8 GB microSD card that's inside my HTC HD2, and it literally hasn't been taken out from the day I put it in there. Before that, it was in my Samsung Jack, again never getting removed. For some of you though, this is an issue - you need to be able to remove the cards and use them in your laptop, desktop, etc. Vote in the poll - please generalize; I didn't want to cover every possible time frame - and sound off in the comments. Will the lack of removable storage stop you from buying a Windows Phone 7 device?</p><p><script src="http://static.polldaddy.com/p/4066230.js" type="text/javascript"></script></p>

1) "encrypted for speed and security"?!?!? Are you kidding? Encryption introduces a speed penalty by introducing an extra layer of file management before the data is written down.

2) You DID remove the card from one device to another. THAT's excactly the reason why we'd want removable storage! So we can transfer these add-ons to other future devices when the time comes. This is fact the same reasons why "we" want standard cables like mini/micro-USB, standard headphoneports etc. So we can transfer our high-end expensive additionally bought headphones to our next-gen smart/musicphone.

M$ should have indeed diversified itself by introducing removable storage. In fact WM6.x has one o/t most easy uses with regards to removable storage (this is why I just don't understand M$'s excuse to avoid it). When you install a app it nicely asks if you want to install on internal storage or external storage (SD-card or other storage space). It seems we are getting less features for a faster cpu and nicer screen... but I didn't I mention this before?

What happens these days is that apparently only Apple is really advancing it's products while the rest is exchanging phone features for faster cpu's and nicer screens. WP7 has LESS features than WM6.x. If I'm forced to go backwards then I'll spend 150 euro on a Nokia featurephone not 500 euro again an a suposedly full featured smartphone (which is suposed to be better in every way to my current model).

epdm2be

11-13-2010, 06:05 PM

But MS obviates this secondary option and ties the user physically and formatically to the W7 phone. This is Apple think, not flexible usability thinking.

Are we sure Steve Jobs isn't somehow involved here?

That's weird, I thought I saw Steve Ballmer playing with Steve Jobs on the same golf course in Santa Monica last week?

You're remark was spot on :-)

Fritzly

11-14-2010, 02:02 AM

But MS obviates this secondary option and ties the user physically and formatically to the W7 phone. This is Apple think, not flexible usability thinking.

Are we sure Steve Jobs isn't somehow involved here?

What MS is doing is trying to copy the business model that Apple was able to push down the throat of users because while doing this it also offered a revolution in the way people interacted with their smartphones: Apple introduced the "Touch" concept and instantly wiped out the previous one that was "The stylo".

What MS is doing is trying to do the same using the "Metro" GUI; while I personally like it very much the new GUI I am very well aware that its introduction is not a change of a comparable magnitude of the one Jobs offered.

flatlander_48

11-14-2010, 04:17 AM

1) "encrypted for speed and security"?!?!? Are you kidding? Encryption introduces a speed penalty by introducing an extra layer of file management before the data is written down.

Agreed. I don't ever remember a situation where encryption increased speed, unless one scheme is compared to another.

Calling storage cards "removable" in this sense is like in the old days when there were "transportable" computers. Yes, you could carry it from one place to another, but there was a considerable penalty (personal fatigue, potential damage, etc.).

I do not like the fact that there is a penalty with removing the storage card (hard reset). I do not like the fact that the card is not externally readable. To me both of these are negatives that would make WM7 undesirable.

cubakid

11-15-2010, 05:43 AM

I remove it almost every day. The fastest way to get content off-line (an hour a day in the subway) is to use a PC based tool to copy mobile versions of websites and put it on on the removable card via a reader. Sad but true.

Jason Dunn

11-15-2010, 10:47 PM

Agreed. I don't ever remember a situation where encryption increased speed, unless one scheme is compared to another.

I didn't chose my words very carefully there, so the confusion is my fault; the way it was explained to me by Aaron Woodman (he's the guy who goes on the Engadget show to talk about Windows Phone 7), the cards are encrypted for security. Full stop, end of point one.

But they're also non-removable for reasons of speed; as in, the content on them is part of the whole device memory (basically JBOD), where everything added or modified is pre-indexed and known to the OS. If the Zune Music app knows all the music you have on the card because it's internal database was updated from the last desktop sync - or from when you downloaded a new song OTA - it doesn't need to search for new files.

Remember in the WM 6.5 days you'd have a storage card and if you were using Windows Media Player you'd have to force it to search for new music on the card by updating the library? I always found that irritating and am glad that I no longer have to do that - it was a waste of time. That's no longer necessary with Windows Phone 7.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too; if they allowed you to take out the memory card, you'd be forced back into having the storage card as a separate memory pool, and having to scan the card for new media on a per-application basis. Some people here might be OK with that, but ultimately it's not a user-friendly approach - most people don't like managing files and managing storage. I know I don't. :)

Ed Hansberry

11-16-2010, 01:54 AM

1) "encrypted for speed and security"?!?!? Are you kidding? Encryption introduces a speed penalty by introducing an extra layer of file management before the data is written down.
Speed penalties by encrypting data in RAM can be negible. The file system may or may not handle this - I know in Windows 7 it does, but that is because encryption is optional and can vary, from EFS to Bitlocker. With WP7, since it is so engrained, it could be in the kernel than processes this.

With WP7, encryption is there by default, and by having a hardware spec for the SD card and forcing it to always be there all of the time, you can easily encrypt files faster than Windows Mobile 6.x could since it had to always check for the card before getting underway, and then you had various card classes it had to deal with.

All things being equal, yeah, WP7 could probably read/write files faster unencrypted than encrypted, but with a 1GHz processor, that hit should be minimal and unnoticed by the user at all, and again, encrypting on WP7 should be faster than unencrypted sessions with WinMo.

mas98110

11-16-2010, 03:16 AM

Hello Everyone,

I have written before about the lack of removable memory being the deal killer for me. The other issue was the lack of Active Sync. I have a small business which by law requires all files to be confidential so my PC, Laptop & Wizard 6.0(yes, custom ROM) are all encrypted. I can't take the chance of using Cloud because of this issue. I know that I'm not the typical user but Win Phone 7 is useless to me.

I love MS and use XPP, Win7 and WinMobile 6.0. My suggestion to Microsoft is to market heavily to gamers and advertise the Xbox compatability. It is the only real marketing distinction from the iPhone which now is so popular that accessories are available even at dollar stores.

Microsoft will never make gains in the smart-phone market selling it's operating system alone.
I'm planning on picking up the HTC HD2 and flashing a custom 6.5 ROM.

benjimen

11-16-2010, 06:38 AM

[BLAH BLAH BLAH] ...I have a small business which by law requires all files to be confidential so my PC, Laptop & Wizard 6.0(yes, custom ROM) are all encrypted... [BLAH BLAH BLAH] ...I'm planning on picking up the HTC HD2 and flashing a custom 6.5 ROM.

Interesting that you would trust such stringent business security requirements to a customized ROM... Good luck with that.

mas98110

11-17-2010, 02:43 AM

Hi Benjamin,
Not sure what you are referring to, my 6.0 is a custom ROM thanks to xda developers. They have a great site for learning about cooking & flashing.
Mike

Jason Dunn

11-17-2010, 05:10 AM

Hi Benjamin,
Not sure what you are referring to, my 6.0 is a custom ROM thanks to xda developers. They have a great site for learning about cooking & flashing.
Mike

What he's saying is that you're running software on your phone that was cooked up by random strangers who could have put in god-knows-what...and it's odd that you're so trusting of what is essentially a warez site when you're so concerned about security in every other way. :confused:

mas98110

11-17-2010, 11:07 PM

I see now. That could be a problem but I've never heard any member complain about hidden stuff and most of those guys are sharp. I is probably a good idea to do your own cooking and it's not hard. The trick is not to brick your phone.
Thanks

benjimen

11-17-2010, 11:12 PM

I see now. That could be a problem... [BLAH BLAH BLAH]

Which law in particular are you referencing that requires you encrypt your data? You'd probably not want to let anyone know you're doing so with an anonymously modified version of the OS -- and, if you manage to somehow cook your own, don't tell them that either :p

mas98110

11-18-2010, 02:37 AM

Ed Hansberry

11-18-2010, 06:56 AM

These are child abuse cases and the files are confidential; only prosecutors, parties and the court have access to them. I encrypt my own files in order to prevent access when I travel. I tend to lose stuff like Pocket PC's, Laptops and those SD memory cards. If someone finds them it would be a real problem for me.

Well, I am sure those children and their families are relieved to know that you are storing that confidential data on a cooked OS created by who knows who in who knows where. But as long as you trust them, then those abuse victims should too.

Also good to note that the real problem if you should lose data is the problems it would cause for you. :rolleyes:

Lee Yuan Sheng

11-18-2010, 10:16 AM

I sense some hostility towards cooked ROMs. I'm going to say that if not for them keeping the tiny fire going, I think that WinMo would be completely gone as an enthusiast platform.

benjimen

11-18-2010, 10:43 AM

I sense some hostility towards cooked ROMs. I'm going to say that if not for them keeping the tiny fire going, I think that WinMo would be completely gone as an enthusiast platform.

You're probably correct -- but I don't think anyone's really after the enthusiast-market, it seems the big players feel having a consumer-brand is the way to go ;)

Android has some appeal towards both consumers and enthusiasts, however, consumer oriented users get a little burned out when their devices start to slow down and a reformat and app re-install is the only solution on smartphones that aren't receiving the latest OS updates; or they want to run Netflix, etc. I know a couple previous WM tweakers that happy campers with jailbroken iPhones.

Choice is good, and there's lots of it right now -- as WP7 matures and some killer devices with more onboard storage come to market, making a choice will be more difficult.

Lee Yuan Sheng

11-18-2010, 12:03 PM

You're probably correct -- but I don't think anyone's really after the enthusiast-market, it seems the big players feel having a consumer-brand is the way to go ;)

That's definitely true; I can see the appeal behind mass market products (simply put, would you prefer to sell 100 products or 100,000 products), but I was speaking in context of enthusiasts being hostile towards one of the few reasons why a platform is still alive.

Android has some appeal towards both consumers and enthusiasts, however, consumer oriented users get a little burned out when their devices start to slow down and a reformat and app re-install is the only solution on smartphones that aren't receiving the latest OS updates; or they want to run Netflix, etc.

Not quite getting this. What's a reformat got to do with slow OS updates and Netflix?

benjimen

11-18-2010, 12:13 PM

Not quite getting this. What's a reformat got to do with slow OS updates and Netflix?

After using an Android device for a while, it winds up running slower than it did at first -- installing, uninstalling seems to leave remnants of stuff behind and while you could spend hours trying to figure it all out, it's easier to just do a hard reset and reinstall your apps. WM was like that even more so. Netflix is an example of what a lot of people I know who have Android devices wish they could run on them (it is a killer feature).

Anyway... this seems a bit off topic. It's gone from WP7 storage cards onto WM and storage cards and now Android -- I'm outta here ;)

paschott

11-19-2010, 01:11 AM

I sense some hostility towards cooked ROMs. I'm going to say that if not for them keeping the tiny fire going, I think that WinMo would be completely gone as an enthusiast platform.

Strange, I didn't sense hostility towards cooked ROMs so much as the reasoning behind why that was such a big deal. I think it was commenting on how the poster was concerned about moving files back and forth between a microSD card and his PC, but complaining about MS using the "S" part of the card in WP7. That was later clarified when he said that the files were encrypted outside of the MS control, but the original post did sound kind of silly. Almost like "I'm worried about security of my files so I won't use the WP7 encrypted storage and instead put my stuff on a cooked ROM".

----
As for cooked ROMs for WM, I have no issues with using them - you generally know the risks going in and accept them. I appreciate the time spent by the chefs and they extended the usefulness of my phone quite a bit - easy access to the stuff AT&T hid, version upgrades, antenna upgrades, etc. Without their work, I would have been left with the original stock ROM and that's pretty much it. As it was, I was able to get up to WM 6.5 and enjoy the enhancements there for some time.

Storing/transporting files was rarely important to me except in one case where I couldn't find my MicroSD card reader. Outside of that, I rarely took the card out of the phone.