>> IE6 is a highly problematic browser for developers to code for - so much so that there are several online movements to banish it once and for all <<
imho, the supreme irony here is that web developers code for "ie" at all...
The browser concept was founded on the basis of a common protocol where users of any os using any browser could access information from other systems.
Then, ie became the dominant browser so coders catered to what ie could do or required _since the remainder of users comprised only a small percentage and content providers could afford to ignore them_
This thread is even more ironic in that it's focus is a PC based problem on a web site that is specifically targeted for mobile users.
Bells, whistles and eye candy may be the holy grail of the marketing world who also can't abide the idea that their page layout might be altered to fit a different screen or perhaps an eye condition.
In general, I would rather see sites using LCD* so they didn't exclude users who fail to conform to the "expected norm" in their equipment, connection and browser choice.
Yeah, I understand - but I hope that users will "rise up" against their IT departments and complain loudly if they can't see/use Web sites the way they're supposed to look/work.
The standard management response to this is probably going to be something like: "You can use any browser you like on the unemployment line."
Unless it's a website that you have a justifiable business need to access, I doubt very much they will care at all.
IE6 at work. FF at home. We're in the same boat as most of the other corporate folks on here. 140,000 employees...so my company doesn't rush to upgrade anything. We have some apps that they claim only run on IE6 (although I've run a few with IE7 as a test).
I don't expect an official upgrade to IE7 for years. We're actually bypassing Vista and waiting for Windows 7 as well due to IT test results... Even then, I expect it to be a slow rollout of the new OS.
Myself - I may have bypassed the rules and installed FF on my laptop. Just makes sense. So you won't see me visiting here on IE6, although that is what I have installed...
imho, the supreme irony here is that web developers code for "ie" at all...The browser concept was founded on the basis of a common protocol where users of any os using any browser could access information from other systems.
You're 100% right: no Web developer should have to code for a specific browser. It's completely idiotic that a Web browser, which should strictly adhere to HTML/XHTML/etc. standards, should interpret code in any way but one. Yet that's exactly what IE6 did - it was a horrible browser by all accounts (I'm not a developer) because it simply didn't work the way it should work.
Thankfully, IE8 is much better, and in fact is arguably the most standards-compliant browser there is today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BevHoward
This thread is even more ironic in that it's focus is a PC based problem on a web site that is specifically targeted for mobile users.
Well, firstly, this is an off-topic post. Secondly, this message was posted to Pocket PC Thoughts, Smartphone Thoughts, Digital Home Thoughts, and Zune Thoughts. All kinds of different users.
But even then the point remains...Darius has recently been working on new mobile templates for all our sites. IE Mobile is a bit of a freakish beast, and of course it's not the same from one version of Windows Mobile to the next, so by not being standards-compliant, it creates headaches for developers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BevHoward
Bells, whistles and eye candy may be the holy grail of the marketing world who also can't abide the idea that their page layout might be altered to fit a different screen or perhaps an eye condition.
But that's exactly the point Bev - if a browser properly renders HTML/CSS/etc. code properly, then usability adjustments (image zoom, text size enhancements, etc.) will work that right way. Things will get bigger, but the layout and functionality of the site will remain the same. Bigger, but not broken. When a Web developer can code to Web standards, he knows that he can guarantee a good user experience. IE 6 simply doesn't deliver that without the developer spending extra resources to compensate for it's inability to render things properly.
You seem to think that this is about fancy whiz-bang features, but it's not: it's simply about getting page elements and basic design features to be in the same place, and work the same, across all browsers. IE6 makes that a nightmare for many developers.
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...but I hope that users will "rise up" against their IT departments and complain loudly if they can't see/use Web sites the way they're supposed to look/work.
Totally agree.
We've got to remember what a minority geeks like us are, even in the most technology-focused companies. How many employees do you think A) KNOW what browser/version they use, or B) Know enough to blame the browser instead of the Web site when it doesn't render correctly?
Thanks for the responses Jason, all very well thought out.
While we both have valid points, one analogy to help underscore my point is to compare web pages to content on a printed page.
The creator of a printed page spends part of his/her time setting margins, indents, text wrap around content, etc, etc. as an integral part of the words and images on that page. That type of control works on the printed page since the paper is a static unmodifiable medium, but it doesn't work (at least it doesn't work well) with web pages.
In addition to different browsers, users use resolutions from vga to really high res and many crater (ppct does a pretty good job) when you make minor changes such as modifying the text size... go to http://cnn.com using a mozilla based browser (firefox, seamonkey, etc) and press a few times for sample. (Keep us old farts with failing eyesight in mind and do the same on your own pages as they render ;-)
Pages are everywhere with such strict text formatting that expanding the text size renders them inaccessible and I have a hunch that the page creators are oblivious to the problems which occur when visitors come and use settings and browsers different from those of the page author.
A long time ago (pre-internet) I ended up with some valuable education points which taught me to be aware of messages that existed in addition to the incoming words and images... i.e. who is the message aimed at, what is the writer's opinion of the reader and does the writer have any concerns about the reader? Subtle inadvertent messages... "Eat at Joe's on Tuesday" may carry the additional message "Don't Eat at Joe's on Wed through Mon" There's an amazing number of ads out there which seem to assume their customers are dumb as a stump when you look at the whole.
When I visit a site I need or want to visit and things are not readable or simply don't work, the message I receive is that that company doesn't want me there unless I am compliant to their expectations.
Conversely, when I visit a site using a PDA and that site allows the experience for PDA users, the company has sent me a strong, effective and positieve message that they look at things from the consumers' viewpoint and that goes much further than a "special sale" in the long term.
Jason, you are doing a great job here and have a clean accessible site for a broad range of machines, browsers and users.
My posts such as this and the previous one are made in the hope that when readers of these missives later visit a site that makes the visit unpleasant experience that they might take a moment to go beyond the tech issues of the problem(s) and perceive that they just received a clear subliminal message from the vendor, since there will normally be a clear connection between those subliminal messages and how the company will treat you as a client or customer down the line.
Thanks again for this great resource you provide,
Beverly Howard
it was the default browser that came with xp sp2 i think, many people don't care about upgrading and dont want to. i actually stuck with ie6 until only a few weeks ago, the reason is i had a ton of favorites and didn't want to have to import them into firefox lol. the only reason i finally did switch was to use adblock on firefox.
you have to remember users could care less if ie6 is hard to code for, it works and its installed by default, so they use it, there is no reason to switch for most people.
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