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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 06:58 PM
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if this gets rid of the stupid window icon in the upper corner i am all for it. no matter which slick UI you put on winmo the mment it has to flip to that menu bar it just screams cheapness. that start menu bar needs to go for good.
 
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2008, 05:21 AM
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Default Contradictions

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
Oh, no, I think the UI is the major issue with WinMo. There are performance issues and I would guess most of those come from substandard hardware and poorly implemented UI enhancements. Most of the actual functionality of WinMo is great.

I mean...they need to start from scratch. Wrapping the OS in a new UI isn't enough.
OK, that contradiction confused me. Were you trying to be funny, or what?

Regardless, the Windows Mobile user interface, while not flashy, is quite usable. It's also very familiar to many of us. While I agree that Microsoft should probably create a touch-friendly interface, that should be a mode. There should also be a stylus-friendly mode that keeps most of the UI the way it is.

If you think the stylus is passe, read my editorial on why Windows Mobile needs a stylus. (Of course, that's for Pocket PCs; for Smartphones, it's a moot point.)

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2008, 04:47 PM
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Steve, I had a dispute with a guy at work about that recently and felt the same way. That was before I decided to forgo WinMo and try Android. I don't miss the stylus one bit. I don't know what you do but I can say that in the business world, where most of these devices get their use, most of your points are irrelevant.

You'd lose handwriting recognition. While I never got it to work well for me, a lot of people have and love it.

With hardware keyboards that's the main way people get data into their devices. Handwriting recognition is not a good reason to keep a stylus because we're talking about a small subset of users. Its not very efficient so losing it is only a benefit.

You'd lose inking in Notes. The ability to add drawings in your notes makes them more useful.

Yeah, if only the pictures were halfway usable I'm sure someone out there likes drawing pictures on their PDA/phone but I've tried and found that the small screen makes the drawings useless.

Selection for copy/paste operations would be more difficult.

I agree here that losing easy copy/paste is a downside. But that function just isn't something I find myself using enough to matter.

Scrolling large distances is more difficult.

You're not thinking outside the box. First I have to say scrolling long docs on the Android is easy. The phone is incredibly responsive so a quick flick and the page starts flying by and when it gets where I want it to I touch the screen and it stops.

Also in a long list like contacts, a scroll bar is hand but you don't want it taking up the display. When you start scrolling then a scroll button appears and you can grab and scroll with it. Its there when you need it and gone when you don't.

Drawing programs would be almost nonexistent. Trying to draw with your finger instead of a stylus is like comparing fingerpainting to ink sketches.

I appologize to all of the aritsts of the PDA world...but who cares. This is a business device for most, not a toy.

The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users. New users might like an exclusively finger-friendly interface, but some experienced users might not.

No way. When I got my first WinMo phone the first thing that hit me was...wow, if I wasn't an experienced PPC user this thing would be terrible to use. The move away has been rather easy since there's no OS out there as complex as the WinMo one. Not that I feel its a bad thing...you get a lot of power.

As for your contradiction statement...I assume its because I said the functionality is great but they ned to do more than wrap it in a new UI. No, I stand by that and I'm being serious. It is absolutely inexcusable that WinMo can't run on a 500 - 600 mHz device like the HTC Touch Pro or the Xperia X1 and not have performance issues. The OS needs a total redesign to streamline what's under the hood.

Keep what works. Keep all of the functionality...just clean it up. You can't charge $400 for a phone that is going to suffer major performance issues. I was all set to switch to Sprint and get the Touch Pro and then I played with one. I was shocked at how...not good it was. I was extremely excited about getting to play with it and when I did I left really let down. I couldn't even play with an X1 at the store since they've all been recalled. The guy at Sony Style told me that they didn't say why but he felt that it was because they had some severe performance issues that Sony wanted to work out. $800 for an X1.

Windows Mobile is based on a 13 year old User Interface that was designed for desktop computers. Its time to make a UI designed to be used on a mobile device. Holding up progress at the expense of some of the more esoteric uses of Windows Mobile (and you can come back and tell me how useful they are to you...all I can say is almost noone else cares) is what has left WinMo in the state its in today.
 
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:36 AM
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Interesting debate over the need for a stylus or lack there of. I read that piece and anything involving digital ink of any kind is really just one category. Everything else does not need a stylus. Cut/copy/paste are possible it just requires a little imagination to implement. I've used WM since the iPaq 3800 series and after a while having to pull out a stylus every time just got annoying. So I used my fingers like 95% of the time to navigate the device and OS. Last year I moved over to the iPhone and haven't looked back nor have I missed having a stylus. A few times I inadvertently reached for a stylus but that was it. Not to mention many other people have changed over from a stylus based OS to the iPhone or some other non-stylus based OS with no problems.
I think that some of us get so locked in on what we personally like and want, that we forget there's a whole world of people to consider. People are adapt when they must. WM has the least user friendly interface but many use it. So to say that "The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users" just seems so incorrect. People are more likely unwilling to change which is what makes it harder than it really is. They like to stay with what's familiar. WM for example looks and feels like Windows. A lilliputian keyboard on a smartphone is like a type writer or PC keyboard for those to young to know. We are creatures of habit but we don't always like to create new habits if it means giving up a old familiar one. Just my 0.0002 cents (rough economy)
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:22 AM
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Default Stylus Functions

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
You'd lose handwriting recognition. While I never got it to work well for me, a lot of people have and love it.

With hardware keyboards that's the main way people get data into their devices. Handwriting recognition is not a good reason to keep a stylus because we're talking about a small subset of users. Its not very efficient so losing it is only a benefit.
But many devices, including the vaunted iPhone and Touch Diamond, don't have hardware keyboards. Also, what is a "small" subset? If it's even 1%, out of 18 million WM users, that's 180,000 people you'd consider irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
Selection for copy/paste operations would be more difficult.

I agree here that losing easy copy/paste is a downside. But that function just isn't something I find myself using enough to matter.
It's very useful. For example, if you have colleagues at your company in your Contacts, would you want to type in the same work address for each person you added. With copy/paste, you could copy that address from another colleague and paste it into the new colleague's record.

The stylus is also useful for selecting a large block of text to delete (similar to cut). On WM Standard, you have to backspace over each character, which gets tedious fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
Scrolling large distances is more difficult.

You're not thinking outside the box. First I have to say scrolling long docs on the Android is easy. The phone is incredibly responsive so a quick flick and the page starts flying by and when it gets where I want it to I touch the screen and it stops.
Fair enough; I thought flick scrolling scrolled one page. Still, that mechanism doesn't seem particularly discoverable, while the Windows Mobile UI is instantly familiar to anybody who's used a Mac or PC.

I've been using my WM Smartphones (the Motorola Q and Q9m) for over two years now as my primary devices, and I still hate how difficult it is to get to the bottom of a Web page. Hold that Down button for a long time, instead of tap the scroll box and drag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
Drawing programs would be almost nonexistent. Trying to draw with your finger instead of a stylus is like comparing fingerpainting to ink sketches.

I appologize to all of the aritsts of the PDA world...but who cares. This is a business device for most, not a toy.
"Drawing" isn't just for artists. Programmers might want to make flowcharts or UML diagrams on the fly. Inventors might want to sketch an idea quickly. Web designers might want to do a quick wireframe diagram. Electrical engineers might draw a circuit diagram. I think those qualify as business uses, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Tucker View Post
The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users. New users might like an exclusively finger-friendly interface, but some experienced users might not.

No way. When I got my first WinMo phone the first thing that hit me was...wow, if I wasn't an experienced PPC user this thing would be terrible to use.
You actually proved my point. I said the learning curve for a new OS would be hard for experienced WM users. I said new users might benefit from a finger-friendly UI.

Again, I'm not saying that WM shouldn't be made easier and more friendly. I'm saying that it shouldn't get rid of the stylus, because it does have its uses. Having both finger-friendly and stylus-friendly interfaces would give us the best of both worlds. Just because you don't find a stylus useful doesn't mean that nobody does.

Steve
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:30 AM
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I don't think "Swami" works for Pony99 anymore. "Contrarian" seems more fitting
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:38 AM
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Default Stylus Usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattEarp View Post
Cut/copy/paste are possible it just requires a little imagination to implement.
True, you could have a "selection mode" where the directional pad selects the text (like Vito CopyPaste does on the Smartphone). That's still less efficient than tapping and dragging and selecting from a context menu.

In fact, context menus are gone in WM Smartphone because you can't (in general) act on an arbitrary area of the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattEarp View Post
I think that some of us get so locked in on what we personally like and want, that we forget there's a whole world of people to consider.
True, like those people who say that WM should get rid of the stylus despite a large group of people using them.

Seriously, if that was directed at me, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I've consistently said that WM should provide a better UI -- but it should keep a stylus-friendly version for people who like it. That's about inclusion, not exclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattEarp View Post
People are adapt when they must. WM has the least user friendly interface but many use it. So to say that "The learning curve could be worse for experienced Windows Mobile users" just seems so incorrect. People are more likely unwilling to change which is what makes it harder than it really is. They like to stay with what's familiar.
All true, but why force people to adapt when you don't need to? Having a stylus mode and a finger mode lets new users get the friendly interface while allowing experienced users to choose whether they want to adapt or not.

And saying people are "unwilling to change" is because change requires new learning -- even if the new system is easier to learn. And that was my point, so I'm not sure what seems incorrect about it.

When Windows XP came out, I didn't like the new UI, but I was grateful that Microsoft allowed switching back to Windows Classic mode. Giving people a choice is good. That's one of Windows Mobile's strengths -- you have lots of form factors to choose from, lots of carriers to choose from, lots of software to choose from and even choice about whether you want a touchscreen or not.

Why should a stylus be an all-or-nothing decision?

Steve
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:40 AM
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Default Another Useless Post

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Originally Posted by Macguy59 View Post
I don't think "Swami" works for Pony99 anymore. "Contrarian" seems more fitting
Too bad "Guy who adds nothing useful" is too long for a user tag, but at least pontificator seems appropriate for you.... (Definition #2)

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Last edited by Pony99CA; 12-25-2008 at 03:48 AM..
 
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pony99CA View Post
Too bad "Guy who adds nothing useful" is too long for a user tag, but at least pontificator seems appropriate for you.... (Definition #2)

Steve

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2008, 04:12 AM
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Hey hey, don't make me get out the fire hose.

Quote:
All true, but why force people to adapt when you don't need to?
Well, I agree with this in principle. The main issue I see is that the differences in touch screen technology makes this much less feasible. Capacitive is more suited to finger based UIs and resistive is more suited to stylus UIs. One isn't superior to the otehr...just different. But that does limit the choices you can have.

I'd been using WinMo as long as anyone. Changing was easy. You'd have to try it though for a few days I think to really appreciate it.
 
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