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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 12:59 PM
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Posts: 8,228

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgen
Rather than write such unhelpful articles, PPCthoughts should write articles that looked at things from the outside: why are neither Palm or PPCs as good as they ought to be and what could be done to make them better.
This wasn't an article. It was my thoughts. Get it... Pocket PC Thoughts? ;-)

And if you read this site regularly, you will see a number of thoughtful articles, thoughts and even a few rants :devilboy: on improvements wanted for the PPC platform in particular and PDAs in general.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 02:47 PM
Sage
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 693

Seing my wording: "unhelpful" should probably be "negative".

I read PPCthoughts every single day as one of the first things in the day and, yes, I like your thoughts/articles apart from the yearly attack on Palm.

Jorgen
 
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 08:30 PM
Mystic
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,887

Quote:
Originally Posted by elbowz
[Perhaps you should consider the question from the opposite direction: does it make sense to try to emulate a modern desktop OS on something with a tiny screen designed to fit in your hand?.
Tell that to PALM who are moving to LINUX which is a *server* OS.

WINCE was designed for embedded applications and has evolved into a solid Real-time capable modular OS.
Which is to say it is *not* a desktop OS. (That is what XP PRO is for).

So, by your own logic, it is WinCE that is on the right path and Palm that is misguided.

(I'm going to burn in hell for that one but I couldn't resist.) :devilboy:
 
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 09:33 PM
tah
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Posts: 8

Seems like there's some strong opinions here! Why not throw in my $0.02 worth?

I've been using a 2215 for the last year. Had to remove Pocket Informant so I wouldn't run out of memory running GPS. Downloaded a golf program for PPC and Palm. PPC file...5 Mb...Palm file....400K. Winner on memory management goes to Palm.

Bluetooth memory problem..twice a week, minimum! Soft resets, as well as freezing going down the road! Palm T2 stability...rock solid! Winner....Palm.

Desktop PIM. This I realize is an opinion only, but I'm so used to Palm Desktop it's the winner over Outlook for me. Plus I really don't have the memory on my 2215 for email. Too little space already!
Winner..(for me anyway)..Palm.

Third party apps/freeware? NO contest...Palm.

When it's time to "rebuild" a unit, Palm is a heck of a lot simpler.

Do I care about multitasking..not really.

Before you think I'm one way, I really do like my 2215. But realistically it has some SERIOUS limitations when using side-by-side with my T2.

What does PPC win. Well it acts like Bill Gates had a hand in it. Is that a good thing? It eats memory like Elvis ate pills. It looks nice...so did one of my old girlfriends...who brought a whole new meaning to the term neurotic.

You guys who go with the Palm is dead..long live PPC BS, should live with both in hand for a few years. PPC is nice I agree, but Palm spanks it in several areas.

iPaq 2215, 400MHz, 64 Mb ~ Palm T2, 175MHz (I think), 32 Mb, Palm opens programs quicker, boots quicker and can hold one heck of a lot more apps. Not even using 15 Mb on the Palm, many, many programs. Running out on the PPC and severly limited.
 
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 09:40 PM
Mystic
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Posts: 1,734

Wasn't the Palm T2 one of the last with real memory. Try a more recent Palm and tell me about stability.

Surur
 
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 09:59 PM
tah
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Posts: 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surur
Wasn't the Palm T2 one of the last with real memory. Try a more recent Palm and tell me about stability.

Surur
So let me see if I have this right....

I'm not being fair comparing an older Palm with a newer PPC?

Puleeeeze........
 
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 10:14 PM
Mystic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,734

No. Its simple pragmatism. What you are talking about is Old Palm. New Palm is all about features and crashes. No need to be fair, just realistic.

Surur
 
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 10:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 481
Default Re: Each serves their own market

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janak Parekh
I'm sure there's fanboys here, but I'd like to think that most of us have made a rational decision as to why we use Windows Mobile...
I would hope so too. I don't know about going back though but I would pick up a Palm to hack around with. I love Linux on the desktop and I also have a sharp and a flashed 3700 iPAQ but for my day to day stuff it's still a PPC (or rather 3 of them 8) ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janak Parekh
I've always said that once Palm fixes multiple categorization and multitasking, I'd consider going back. Those two are requirements for me, and it's frustrating that they haven't been fixed.
It always seems that when Microsoft is playing in the game everyone else is playing catch up. Some are doing it better than others and even some might be ahead but even those companies have to constantly look behind them.

With Palm I get the impression that they're just rolling along on their installed base. But one moment they were in front and the next they're behind. The peculiar thing about this is that they keep saying that they're doing it the right way and the way MS is doing it is all wrong. We see that there's nice hardware (Treo, Tungston etc.) and software apps for the palm so the only thing that people must dislike has to be the OS or rather the core OS behavior. To fix up the Palm OS wouldn't be easy or cheap but if they don't fix up the OS I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the time "I also had one of those Palm's" while we go strolling through the Smithsonian. Or how about the 25cent gallon of gas my father used to tell me about. Or the horse that .........

Jeff-
 
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2005, 10:39 PM
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Posts: 481

Boy this is starting to turn into a good thread :agrue: I can already smell some smoke. :multi:

Jeff-
 
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2005, 12:50 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,887
Default Re: Each serves their own market

Quote:
Originally Posted by lapchinj
With Palm I get the impression that they're just rolling along on their installed base. But one moment they were in front and the next they're behind. The peculiar thing about this is that they keep saying that they're doing it the right way and the way MS is doing it is all wrong. We see that there's nice hardware (Treo, Tungston etc.) and software apps for the palm so the only thing that people must dislike has to be the OS or rather the core OS behavior. To fix up the Palm OS wouldn't be easy or cheap but if they don't fix up the OS I'll be able to tell my grandchildren about the time "I also had one of those Palm's" while we go strolling through the Smithsonian. Or how about the 25cent gallon of gas my father used to tell me about. Or the horse that .........

Jeff-
You've got it.
Its called the Tyrany of the installed base and its killed more than a few companies/products. (Word Perfect, Lotus, Ashton-tate come to mind...)
(It is also what the article that started it all was alluding to.)
Palm's problem is that they failed to obsolete their product before somebody else did it to them.

From 1995 to 2002 they did virtually nothing to update the platform and instead chose to milk the (large) customer base for all it was worth.

Try this:
- First color PDA? Not Palm
- first arm-based PDA? Not Palm
- first expandable PDA? Not Palm
- First stereo PDA? Not Palm
- first multimedia PDA? Not Palm
- first wi-fi PDA? Not Palm
Whether it be Casio, Compaq, HP, Toshiba, or whoever, Palm hardware has been lagging somebody in the market for over 5 years. And the Palm followers pooh-pooh'ed because Palm had the dominant market share.
Well, any serious analyst can tell you,nobody that lags their competitors that consistently, that long, endures.

All that the large early share and customer devotion did was mask the underlying flaws of the architecture and the product until it was too late.

The way Palm made the Pilot a success was by building it on trailing-edge, dirt cheap technology (1970's-vintage cpu, minimal ram, etc) and tailoring the software to what the hardware allowed (graffitti instead of handwriting recognition, no file system, single threading software environment, tiny apps, no real os). Which is to say, they optimized for the original hardware.

The nature of such optimization is that it is not easily undone.

Palm has been paying for that optimization to this day.
The dirty secret of Palm OS is that the application environment is not an OS at all but an emulator for the old 68k environment.

The Palm platform desperately needs to evolve on the software side; it needs modern APIs that map to modern hardware directly, not through a kludged-up emulator of an architecture that was tired when it was new. Yet it can't because it can't (or won't) let go of the boat anchor of dragonball compatibility.

WinCE doesn't have that problem because Microsoft has slowly migrated the customers and developers from the original CE implementation to the most recent one by gradually obsoleting its own product, bit by bit. Every release breaks a few apps. Every release is incompatible with *some* older hardware. But Never so much that the users or developers go away. The platform stays fresh, the platform evolves, and Microsoft never waits for its enemies to obsolete its product.

On the desktop, MS has shephered its customer base from DOS to Windows 3.x to Win9x to Win2000/xp. That is three generational shifts, all successful.
Palm, on the other hand, is still struggling to complete the transition from single-tasking 68k cpus to multitasking ARM, and has in the process lost the edge in market share it once had so that it now lags in hardware, software, and sales rate.

It still has the loyalty of its existing customers but it is not gaining new ones fast enough to keep up with the competition.
If this keeps up, they will face even bigger problems...

And, like many pepole facing serious real-world problems, the first step is admitting they have a problem.

Proclaiming the superiority of Palm in the face of its past and present failures to adapt does nothing to help PALM and a lot to help its enemies.

So guys, keep whistling past the graveyard if you want to, but that light at the end of the tunnel?
Its a train coming at you...
 
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