[Ed Hansberry]

Originally Posted by drac

Sure, they had that mentality- but no more than anyone else!

What is your alternative?

"Yes, we understand that you need this feature. We don't have it, and can't be bothered to get it, so why not try a competitor?"



{snip}

Every company is going to try to paint its products in the best possible light, which will include the attempt to paint non-offered features as being unnecessary or "not worth it".

To be fair, I don't see MS or their OEM partners doing this. Do they spin? Yes, of course. But when I mention feature X to MS there is generally 3 responses I expect back.
• Yes, we know and are working on something like that.
• Yes, we know. However, we have this which can do the same thing but a bit differently.
• Cool! {eyes light up} So, explain a real world situation how that would work.

Even in public, you very rarely see MS say "our users don't need that feature" unless they are talking about something very specific and prefer their own feature to fulfill that need.

So instead of doing similar, Palm has been saying you don't need it. Meanwhile, Compaq/HP, Toshiba, Dell, Sony and even Handspring have been saying "well, we think you *do* need it so here you go."

[Ed Hansberry]

Originally Posted by drac

Sure, they had that mentality- but no more than anyone else!

What is your alternative?

"Yes, we understand that you need this feature. We don't have it, and can't be bothered to get it, so why not try a competitor?"



{snip}

Every company is going to try to paint its products in the best possible light, which will include the attempt to paint non-offered features as being unnecessary or "not worth it".

To be fair, I don't see MS or their OEM partners doing this. Do they spin? Yes, of course. But when I mention feature X to MS there is generally 3 responses I expect back.
• Yes, we know and are working on something like that.
• Yes, we know. However, we have this which can do the same thing but a bit differently.
• Cool! {eyes light up} So, explain a real world situation how that would work.

Even in public, you very rarely see MS say "our users don't need that feature" unless they are talking about something very specific and prefer their own feature to fulfill that need.

So instead of doing similar, Palm has been saying you don't need it. Meanwhile, Compaq/HP, Toshiba, Dell, Sony and even Handspring have been saying "well, we think you *do* need it so here you go."

[sasquatchw/ppc]

I didn't read the thread but I took a look at the poll and yu know that the X button when you have pocketblinds running really closes the app.

[drac]

To be fair, I don't see MS or their OEM partners doing this. Do they spin? Yes, of course. But when I mention feature X to MS there is generally 3 responses I expect back.
• Yes, we know and are working on something like that.
• Yes, we know. However, we have this which can do the same thing but a bit differently.
• Cool! {eyes light up} So, explain a real world situation how that would work.

Perhaps that is as much a function of your unusual position as anything else?

I'm just an outsider with examples.

Seriously, I don't see your protestation as refuting my point. Both Microsoft and Palm made initial decisions as to what was best for them to implement, and both put spin on them where necessary. Both Microsoft and Palm have "spun-down" user requests where necessary; both Microsoft and Palm do eventually fulfill user demand if it is greater enough.

Palm went into "stagnation mode" for long enough that many of their users abandoned them for other licensees or other platforms; I am now hearing a familiar rumbling from many PPC users who feel that the platform has stagnated somewhat, and that the advantages that PPC held for them over PalmOS are rapidly eroding (though not necessarily gone).

I recognise that you have the ear of Microsoft and the PPC licensees to some degree, but the same is not true of J. Random User, for whom options#1 and #3 are only dreams, and option#2 often unsatisfactory.

[cdunphy]

Originally Posted by wirelessgeek

Hi Chris,

How are ya? The TapWave Game Device looks very impressive. But why is the N-Gage yuck!?

I have a few questions and i hope you will find the time to answer them if you can....

-I wonder if there will be more Palm Inc. PDAs and Palm OS licensee PDAs in the future with Bluilt-in Bluetooth besides TapWave and the Sony ones? I asked this because a lot of so-called tech writers and other people think that Palm brought the T/C to the market because they see no future with Bluetooth!?

-Is there a Bluetooth (and WiFi) SD Card coming based on PalmOS5?

-And could we expect a Palm Inc. PDA with both WiFi and Bluetooth in the future?

Thanx in advance.

wgeek :wink:

Here are a few of the reasons I am not at all personally impressed with th N-Guage:

+ The speaker and microphone are on the left thin edge of the device. When you hold it up to your ear to use it as a phone, I've heard several people say that it "looks like you are talking into a taco." Having seen someone making a call on an N-Gauge, I have to agree.

+ The buttons just aren't laid out for gaming. Right under the thumb D-Pad are the buttons to launch the MP3 player and FM radio. It is VERY easy to accidentally hit these buttons and interupt your game.

+ The firebuttons are allmost as bad. The entire phone keypad gives you 12 buttons, and every game has chosen a different subset to assign to functions like jump or fire. There are no trigger buttons either.

+ Perhaps the WORST "feature" of the N-Gauge is that the games will come on MMC cards, but -- to insert or remove an MMC card you have to REMOVE the battery of the device. Not only is this extremely awkward, it then forces you to wait 45+ seconds for the phone to boot up. And - I was told at E3 that the N-Gauge currently will reset the clock when you do this, and that this is not likely to be fixed. Imagine - every time you change the game you are playing, you have to reset the clock.... Not good.


I hope this helps to explain my comment on the N-Gauge.


Now, your other questions....

+ I think there is a great future for Bluetooth, and I think you will see it on more and more devices from Palm SG and the other OS licensees. It will come in time when it makes the most sense for the largest base of consumers. Right now most Zire 71 customers wouldn't ever use the feature, and the Tungsten-C was focused on 802.11. I am sure many future devices will have Bluetooth.

+ I would be surprised if you don't see both WiFi and Bluetooth SD cards supporting Palm OS 5.0 - if not directly from Palm SG, certainly from third parties.

+ I can't comment on what sort of devices our licensees might be working on. Sorry.


Hope this answers all your questions....


-chris

[cdunphy]

Originally Posted by drac

Now, now, Ed.

Be fair.

2 years ago Palm was telling [you] that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex given the technology of the time.

I'll agree that Palm stepped over into stagnation; but logic and fairness will recognise that there are consumer benefits from staying a step back from the bleeding edge of technology.

As co-author of the press presentation and tour two years ago - I think I know exactly what Ed is referring to, and he has missed the point entirely.


The presentation was about a "sweet spot" of design that balances price, performance, practicality, and ease of use. To the far left are the cheap and simple devices that don't deliver much actual value, and to the far right are over-priced and over-powered uber-gadgets.

The actual feature definition of the middle of the sweet spot changes with time - as prices drop and technology gets better things that two years ago were off to the right are now square in the middle.

In the press tour, we talked about how every user has their own personal sweet spot that could very easily differ from the average. And every PalmOS licensee and device maker was targeting different spots along the curve - Sony designing for the advanced users on the right, and Palm SG focused on the largest possible mainstream.


One of the examples we gave was MP3 playback. Two years ago, MP3 playback on a PDA was way off to the right and not a very practical feature for MOST users. Memory cards were too small in capacity and too expensive to carry around much music, and batteries and power conservation technology wasn't going to give you much playtime anyway. Also - devices were too expensive and fragile! Not many people felt comfortable taking a $600 PDA to the gym to listen to music while they worked out. Particularly when a cheap $200 MP3 player held more music, lasted longer, sounded better, and was 10x more durable.

So - we said that MP3 playback was out of the sweet spot. Then. And we predicted that it would creep into the sweet spot for PDA's slowly with time. And it has.

We have always said that the Palm OS (and Palm HW) philosophy was to focus on understanding and being at the center of the sweet spot for as many people as possible. It wasn't "you don't need it until we have it" -it was "we won't build it until we can build it right, and deliver it in a way that satisfies the greatest number of users...."

Palm made a very conscious decision NOT to be on the bleeding edge of technology. The original Pilot was a MUCH simpler and less advanced device than the Newton that proceeded it. And that is why it was a huge success, and launched an industry.

It's not about throwing as much technology into a box as is feasible - a large part of good design is restraint and patience. This is something we have always called the Zen of Palm. Think about it.


Some uber-geeks WANT to be on the bleeding edge of technology, practicality be damned. In many ways, I am that sort of geek. And for those uber-geeks, the Pocket PC had a lot to offer. It fit their personal sweet spot.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, for Microsoft) - PalmOS licensees like Sony have been pushing more and more into uber-geek territory, while SG has begun to venture there as well, while mainting the Zire line to focus 100% on the center of the sweet spot.

Meanwhile - the Pocket PC licensees have been focusing on become more and more generic and interchangeable clone makers. I can't imagine many uber-geeks remaining impressed for much longer.

Times, they are changing....

- chris

[drac]

the Pocket PC licensees have been focusing on become more and more generic and interchangeable clone makers. I can't imagine many uber-geeks remaining impressed for much longer.

That's exactly what I've been seeing as an outsider who lurks fairly consistently- over the past few years, the uber-geeks have been:
(1) noting the degree to which Palm has been "catching up";
(2) increasingly accusing PPC of stagnation;
(3) eyeing devices like the Linux PDA's (like the oh-so-pretty SL-760) or Sony subnotebooks or the various MicroPC prototypes out there.

[wirelessgeek]

Originally Posted by cdunphy

+ I can't comment on what sort of devices our licensees might be working on.

Thanx chris. Although i didn't ask what Palm OS Licensees are upto concerning a WiFi/Bluetooth PDA but "....could we expect a Palm Inc. PDA with both WiFi and Bluetooth in the future?"

It's good to see some market info here not coming from the PPC camp. People need to read more balanced info imho.

I wonder if Palm is still watching Extended Systems Inc. concerning there impressive Server (Enterprise) based sync product and Bluetooth Software. Knowing that both products are used by Palm Inc. They seem to have an impressive customer base and corporate accounts (compared to ThinAirApps for instance) and are doing well in a competitive and bad economic environment. It's still a nice match imho.

Thanx in advance again.

;o)

[wirelessgeek]

Refering at.....

"Life at Palm after the ThinAirApps acquisition was frustrating up until Palm shut down the New York office in March, Pascazio said. "We had Tungsten MIMS Version 1.8 almost out the door," he said. "It was an amazing product. It worked on the Tungsten T with Bluetooth to a GPRS [General Packet Radio Service] phone, worked on the Tungsten C, Tungsten W, et cetera. It had full groupware support for Exchange, Domino, IMAP. They dumped the whole thing." Palm officials said the company's future software plans are based on partnerships with large software companies and carriers, which like to choose their own back-end software.

Explaining why MIMS was nixed, Bradley said in March, "In the enterprise arena, market conditions have caused us to rebalance our areas of emphasis."

Palm will still make client software. Oakes said: "We will continue to develop our own software solutions. But we intend to leverage software partners for most of our back-end, connectivity-oriented solutions."

more
http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0...a=42357,00.asp

eWeek also adds an interesting overview of MS and Palm Middleware strategic moves....

WAVERING ON WIRELESS

Microsoft Corp.
1998 Co-founds Wireless Knowledge Inc.
2000 Announces initial plans for Microsoft Mobile Information Server, which will compete with Wireless Knowledge
2001 Sells off Wireless Knowledge stake
2002 Announces phaseout of MMIS

Palm
Early 2001 Announces plans to buy Extended Systems Inc.; nixes the plans a few months later
Late 2001 Announces acquisition of ThinAirApps
2002 Announces Tungsten line of handhelds and accompanying middleware based on ThinAirApps technology
2003 Reveals that it will not release middleware for Tungsten

[Ed Hansberry]

Originally Posted by wirelessgeek

eWeek also adds an interesting overview of MS and Palm Middleware strategic moves....

WAVERING ON WIRELESS

Microsoft Corp.
1998 Co-founds Wireless Knowledge Inc.
2000 Announces initial plans for Microsoft Mobile Information Server, which will compete with Wireless Knowledge
2001 Sells off Wireless Knowledge stake
2002 Announces phaseout of MMIS

That last one is misleading. MMIS as a standalone product has been phased out - it is now integrated fully into Exchange 2003 eliminating the need for a separate server, a host of configuration issues, etc.