[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Here's why: Flash ROM, while slower than RAM, is permanent storage – meaning that if your device loses power, your data is still safe.

As many have pointed out, that doesn't really make sense. With the current PPC setup, if you lose power to RAM, and you lose your registry, PIM data, and various other system files. Someone else suggested that the primary reason was battery life (more RAM requires more power) but I believe the difference in power consumption for 64 vs 128 MB is not drastic.

Maybe it's a simple marketing/sales/cost decision? Dell and HP might've found that the cost increase for adding RAM (which is now more expensive than flash) would drive up the price, lowering sales and profits. Likewise, maybe adding a higher-end model with more memory wouldn't have been cost effective because it would mean manufacturing smaller volumes of two units instead of one large volume of one unit. Another possibility is that WM2005 needs that much flash memory for upgrading and cost prevented Dell/HP from having 128 RAM/128 flash. (Though this idea is suspect since many handheld makers have not offered an upgrade path in the past... but who knows? Maybe next year will be different) Again, that's all specualtion.

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Here's what I installed, and the amount of system RAM free after each install:

DinarSoft HandyMenu - 29.24 MB
DinarSoft MemMaid - 29.21 MB
Warfare Inc. - 29.21 MB
SkyForce - 29.21 MB
FlexWallet 2005 - 29.21 MB
LandWare Movie Guide - 29.13 MB
Xrgomics TenGO - 28.33 MB
Sprite Backup - 28.07 MB
Sprite Space Detective - 28.06 MB
WebIS Mail 2 - 28.01 MB

Spb Pocket Plus - 26.60 MB (this was forced into main RAM)
Spb Time - 26.42 MB
Spb Imageer - 26.10 MB
Spb Finance - 26.05 MB
Pocket Skype Beta 0.9 - 26.00 MB
Lextionary - 25.99 MB
WorldMate Pro - 25.98 MB
PDAmill Anthelion - 25.98 MB
ScaryBear Software Superlist - 25.98 MB
RCX Columbia Encyclopedia - 25.98 MB

That's all well and good, but it's fairly easy to run through the memory on a 64MB unit even with nothing installed to RAM. Open a few webpages while reading some documents, viewing/editing images, and playing music in the background and you have a good chance of seeing out-of-memory errors. Unfortunately, even if I install nothing to RAM, I can't seem to get more than 40-50 MB free (thanks to PIM data, Windows' memory management, and general Windows' overhead). This is after messing with the slider and running various hacks (Tweaks2k2 and others) to move DLLs and temporary files out of RAM (which has the side effect of making PPC run even slower than it does out of the box).

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Here's why: Flash ROM, while slower than RAM, is permanent storage – meaning that if your device loses power, your data is still safe.

As many have pointed out, that doesn't really make sense. With the current PPC setup, if you lose power to RAM, and you lose your registry, PIM data, and various other system files. Someone else suggested that the primary reason was battery life (more RAM requires more power) but I believe the difference in power consumption for 64 vs 128 MB is not drastic.

Maybe it's a simple marketing/sales/cost decision? Dell and HP might've found that the cost increase for adding RAM (which is now more expensive than flash) would drive up the price, lowering sales and profits. Likewise, maybe adding a higher-end model with more memory wouldn't have been cost effective because it would mean manufacturing smaller volumes of two units instead of one large volume of one unit. Another possibility is that WM2005 needs that much flash memory for upgrading and cost prevented Dell/HP from having 128 RAM/128 flash. (Though this idea is suspect since many handheld makers have not offered an upgrade path in the past... but who knows? Maybe next year will be different) Again, that's all specualtion.

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Here's what I installed, and the amount of system RAM free after each install:

DinarSoft HandyMenu - 29.24 MB
DinarSoft MemMaid - 29.21 MB
Warfare Inc. - 29.21 MB
SkyForce - 29.21 MB
FlexWallet 2005 - 29.21 MB
LandWare Movie Guide - 29.13 MB
Xrgomics TenGO - 28.33 MB
Sprite Backup - 28.07 MB
Sprite Space Detective - 28.06 MB
WebIS Mail 2 - 28.01 MB

Spb Pocket Plus - 26.60 MB (this was forced into main RAM)
Spb Time - 26.42 MB
Spb Imageer - 26.10 MB
Spb Finance - 26.05 MB
Pocket Skype Beta 0.9 - 26.00 MB
Lextionary - 25.99 MB
WorldMate Pro - 25.98 MB
PDAmill Anthelion - 25.98 MB
ScaryBear Software Superlist - 25.98 MB
RCX Columbia Encyclopedia - 25.98 MB

That's all well and good, but it's fairly easy to run through the memory on a 64MB unit even with nothing installed to RAM. Open a few webpages while reading some documents, viewing/editing images, and playing music in the background and you have a good chance of seeing out-of-memory errors. Unfortunately, even if I install nothing to RAM, I can't seem to get more than 40-50 MB free (thanks to PIM data, Windows' memory management, and general Windows' overhead). This is after messing with the slider and running various hacks (Tweaks2k2 and others) to move DLLs and temporary files out of RAM (which has the side effect of making PPC run even slower than it does out of the box).

[Craig Horlacher]

I skimmed through the replies and didn't see what I think is the best argument for the 128MB RAM instead of 128MB flash rom. It's sort of been talked about but I'd like to summerizie.

You're limited forever to the ram it comes with and some stuff has to be installed there. The flash rom on the other had is just another "disk" where you can put stuff but a well trained monkey could stick in a cf or sd card and add a ton of memory. With prices the way they are this is very cheap too.

I waited and tried for quite a while before I got my toshiba e830. Man, if you live in the US it's not fun to try to get. It was worth it for me. I love it. The hp, besides having a very questionable replacment for the direction pad (someone was smoking crack when they came up with that idea! I'm sorry to any 4700 owners but that's got to be bad). For me 480x640 and 128MB of ram were two requirements. Another reqirement for me is always a jog dial. The button lock is a good touch.

So anyway, I've got lots of RAM to work with, 24MB of user writable internal flash area - which is more than enough for important data I want to back up, a 1GB cf card, and a 1GB sd card. Life is good!

Sure, I gave up the 600MHz processor and the 16MB angry graphics subsystem but my games work great and betaplayer still pushes mad frames!

[JvanEkris]

Originally Posted by vector

I skimmed through the replies and didn't see what I think is the best argument for the 128MB RAM instead of 128MB flash rom.

Well,

Problem is that some applications (like Textmaker and Planmaker) require an awfull lot of RAM. I do not know if beter designed software reduces this strain, but it is a challenge to get those applications running. My experience on the Hx4700 is that when the HP security-application runs, i lose 6 MB of RAM. That is 20 % of you program memory!!!! Sometimes it has a memory leak, and i end up with a "out-of-memory" report after a soft reset. 64 Mb goes extremely fast at such a moment.

One other part is that in a standard installation is that applications are minimized. Several small applications running in the background will fill up this memory extremely fast, resulting in memory problems.

I have to disagree with Jason on one point. Activesync has a much larger footprint than 0,3 Mb. It is huge (around 10Mb if you synchronize databases as well). Both TimeTTracker and MySportTraining use this sync and my RAM evaporates before my eyes. Since ActiveSync reguraly does a messy cleanup, this memory stays allocated until yhou kill te process by hand......

Another point is that parts are used as storage that are initiated by the OS itself. I lose 5Mb just on stuff the OS dumps in RAM.

64Mb is OK if everything is well-build and is conservative in RAM usage. But the practice is that a lot of applications, including standard delivered applications like ActiveSync and HP-Security tools, are extremely sloppy with this, resulting in memory problems.

Jaap

[surur]

We are hearing very little refutation to the multiple reasoned arguments why progress means 128Mb ram, not 128Mb rom. Remember the 16Mb compaq, and the 32MB Jornada? There is no argument that at one time 64MB RAM was good enough, but certainly 128MB ram is better, and has more value than extra rom.

So where's all the counter arguments? Or is it just that a Dell is cheaper?

Surur

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by Surur

I agree completely with mr_Ray, which is why Jason's statement is so misleading. Your data is only safe if you save your DATA in ROM.

Misleading? Whoa! Slow down there - let's look at what I actually said (and I'll bold it for your added convenience):

"Current Pocket PCs still use RAM for database and registry storage, so losing power will still put you in a world of hurt. If you look at the way Windows Mobile Smartphones work you can see where this might all be headed: everything will be in Flash ROM, and devices can come out of a battery-dead state without a hiccup."

So I confirmed that all current Pocket PCs CANNOT lose power and still retain user data, and I merely hypothisized at where we might be headed given how much ROM they gave us. I don't know where you're getting me being "misleading", but I find that very insulting. :?

Originally Posted by Surur

Jason then goes on to explain how he stored his PROGRAMS in ROM. Storing programs in rom does not make your data any safer

When did I say that it did? The entire point of my article was merely to point out that I was able to successfully install 99% of my software into ROM and it worked great - leaving the bulk of my system RAM for executing programs. I was addressing the primary concern people have that want 128 MB RAM devices: "I won't have enough space to intall all my apps in 64 MB, I need 128 MB".

That's all I was trying to say - my topic wasn't the safety and security of your data, it was strictly addressing the issue of space for programs. Please re-read my article again if you're still confused - don't put words in my mouth.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by mr_Ray

Unless pretty much EVERY one of the above issues (and probably a few more I can't remember) are resolved, you still need proper backups/restores.

Ok, I seem to have really given off the wrong impression with my article, and I see where I did it: my original article said that "data stored in Flash ROM is safe", but you and several other people took that to mean that I meant that because Pocket PCs have Flash ROM, all a person's data was safe. That's certainly not what I meant - I edited my article to be a bit more clear on that. I was simply trying to point out, for people that didn't know how it worked, how Flash ROM worked. It doesn't need power - things stored in it are safe. That's all.

Until 100% of the user's data, registry, and programs are stored in Flash ROM, yes, you'll continue to need to have backups. I wasn't disputing that at all, so there's no ivory tower here - I was only talking about the availability of storage to install programs, pure and simple.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by Deslock

As many have pointed out, that doesn't really make sense. With the current PPC setup, if you lose power to RAM, and you lose your registry, PIM data, and various other system files.

This is a misinterpretation of my statement.

FACT: Anything stored in Flash ROM will stay there even if the device loses power.

That's all I was saying. I've edited my original statement to make it clear. But just so there's no confusion on where I stand:

FACT: The current design of the Pocket PC operating system, which puts almost all user data in RAM, means that all the Flash ROM in the world won't save you from losing data/apps/settings stored in RAM if/when the device loses power.

I hope this puts this issue to rest. :?

[Hugh Nano]

Having just ordered an x50v, this was an interesting and timely article for me. Thank you, Jason.

Two questions:

1. How much of a performance hit does installing applications in FlashROM vs. RAM incur? I'm thinking of installing TextMaker, and looking forward to having it in memory rather than on a CF card (and thus running appreciably faster), as I am forced to run it on my old memory-sparse iPAQ 3650. Just wondering whether I should be looking at installing it to RAM or FlashROM.

2. Is there a way (probably a hack) to point the My Documents folder to FlashROM instead of RAM?

One comment:

I agree with you, Jason, that this is the way things should go. As FlashROM memory speeds improve, using FlashROM instead of RAM would provide a greater degree of safety and, I imagine, save on battery life. Too bad we're not quite there yet!

[KH]

Jason, I think your points were well put to start with, and there may be folks that haven't considered ROM for program store. (Ahem, this is the model I use, so of course I would agree!)

I believe there were some studies that showed that in general higher amounts of RAM = faster battery drain. That RAM has to be kept 'live' even when powered off, after all. Given that there has been a drive towards increasing battery life it would make sense to avoid drains when possible, and I think the added ROM does that while still increasing storage.

I have traditionally installed programs on external cards, CF or SD, but have worried about reliability and in some cases security. I have dual cards on my 4705 (LOVE this device) but have intalled most programs and references in the ROM (exception being Wikipedia of course!) and reserved the cards for media and more transient files. I have installed a few more performance sensitive items in RAM without doing any experimentation to determine whether it really made a difference.

This works well for my uses, which include real-time note taking with Calligrapher, ebooks, music and video, a lot of photo-viewing, directory lookups and and basic office apps. I may do a memory upgrade at some point, but it will be for run-time performance of executing apps, not to install more applications.

[KH]

A point I forgot to make - I like the quicker back ups. ROM is almost static and only needs to be copied rarely, and the dynamic data updates are smaller and faster this way.