[joker]

Apple things are widely considered as toys. You don't expect much from toys.

[joker]

Apple things are widely considered as toys. You don't expect much from toys.

[joker]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Question: How long has WM 6.1 been out? It was just announced for AT&T's Tilt last week or so, proving my point exactly. Or what about all of us who felt slighted by the fact our device that we paid $600+ for wasn't even getting the new upgrade?

Microsoft doesn't decide that, your device manufacturer does.

Originally Posted by JesterMania

Even between major releases, not much change/improvement/innovation (WM2003 -> WM6.1). Very disappointing.

I just made that move, from WM2003SE to WM6.1, and I could tell the exact opposite.

[unxmully]

Anyone who thinks Mac/Apple users don't complain about defects needs to either get their head examined or spend some time looking at the macrumors discussion forums.

When leopard came out, at first it was a complete bag of spanners and many people were more than happy to tell Apple as much. Apple forums, Macrumors forums, many of the fan sites were full of people complaining about the quality, rolling back to Tiger and all sorts of noise.

So the press may or may no have a love affair with Steve and Apple, but the users are more than happy to bitch and moan with the best of them.

[whydidnt]

I agree that Apple is getting much more leeway today than Microsoft, both from its users and the "press". Some of this is because Apple is still considered the "underdog", and we all seem to want the underdog to win. Even though it's not true in the MP3 space, and probably won't be true for long in the mobile phone space. Another component is the goodwill Apple has built over the last decade - they haven't typically over promised, and have usually been very good at what they say they'll do. They have built significant loyalty in their user base because of this.

As time goes on and Apple becomes a larger player in more markets, and attempts to deliver more features/functions they will run into more and more obstacles and spend more and more goodwill along the way, so things will start to even out.

One final thought - have you ever heard of anyone complaining to Bill Gates and getting a reply that says, we know it's a problem and we're going to fix it, like some have gotten from Steve Jobs? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't sound meaningful, but to a lot of people, the fact that Apple admits it screwed up and indicates it's trying to fix things gives them a lot more latitude. A typical Microsoft response is to indicate they'll look into, or worse no response at all. From a communication standpoint, Apple has been much more open about their recent problems than Microsoft tends to be, and they seem to address those issues quicker. Look how long Vista SP1 took to get out the door.

[unxmully]

Originally Posted by joker

Microsoft doesn't decide that, your device manufacturer does.

Microsoft chose their engagement model with the manufacturers.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by unxmully

Microsoft chose their engagement model with the manufacturers.

Yes, in the same way that I "chose" VZW's arbitrary 5GB cap on wireless data. I didn't really have much of a choice.

MS does need to address this somehow. There are so many pieces to the puzzle (MS->hardware->carrier), and I don't really understand if there is a technical reason preventing them from treating WM updates as they do OS updates.

[bladeharvest]

My experience with windows has been a love hate relationship. I have had windows from 3.0 until Vista. I have multiple handhelds with WM5. I recently moved from a desktop to a notebook as my primary computer. Vista gave me trouble out of the box. I upgraded to ultimate only to experience more bugs. Finally blue screen. It was a software issue that Microsoft did not have a fix for. I was tired of needing constant patches to repair or fix security problems.
I just switched for the first time to Mac. The quality and ease of use is worlds away from windows. I do not have a grudge against microsoft in fact I run xp on the backside of my mac for windows applications that are still important to me. I still sync my handhelds with my mac using cross platform third party software.
If my company's phone carrier picks up iphone, I will get one in a heart beat. Apple does have its problems but it is the lesser of the 2 evils. With my mac I can walk into any apple store and get help not just with the hardware but the software. Their products reflect quality and ease of use.
Critics may give apple a pass because of the unexplainable disdain for Bill Gates and Microsft. Microsoft has been an industry leader and as such has failed in many ways. Vista was nothing more than the "New Coke".
And yes, Apple does have a cult following similar to Harley. I am not sure if I fall into that category yet but I have had a recent itch to go out and look for a new bike.

[Cybrid]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

(MS->hardware->carrier), and I don't really understand if there is a technical reason preventing them from treating WM updates as they do OS updates.

No, there isn't....more on this later.

The original post was about Apple not being viewed objectively. This will not change. Most people are brand agnostic but to the brand conscious, this somehow forms part of their identity. "I'm a Mac guy" or a "Marlboro Man".
While I wish I could objectively say I'm agnostic, I'm probably WinMo biased.

Apple has full control over essentially 2 devices. You only need to build two ROMs. Which BTW are 118Mb. Apps are 10+ Mb's too. Huge! Bloat. I will however revisit that.

MS licensers have hundreds of types devices requiring a base OS + drivers for each one.
This leads to:
Scenario A: A base OS is distributed and licensers are on their own to make or break ROM upgrades. This is what we currently have...
Scenario B: Device manufacturer's would simply create a platfom with drivers. Any OS could be loaded over top. The way the PC World works.
In the PC World having Gb's to play with...You can build an OS with additional drivers included...The lack of large storage is the deciding factor. On iTunes, my wife 's Apple Touch lists
Music 3.xGb, .9Gb photos, 5.6 Video, 3.39 Gb Other.
The 3.39Gb is the OS plus apps installed. When updating, I realized it worked on the PC model. Theres a base driver set and the OS sits overtop.
On a hard reset Touch you get 0 Mb's on all except 118Mb other. This is twice what WinMo is on most devices. While there is no way to objectively compare the two... I prefer the leaner approach.

[hnelson59]

i have the iPod Touch - the Iphone w/o the phone - and i have been extremely impressed with it. it has replaced my Axim X50v as my day-to-day hand held of choice. the ui is easy to use, it has a longer battery life than my Axim and the updates are easy to obtain and install. the only program i am currently waiting for is PI for the iPhone/iPod Tocuh and then my X50v will loose its USB slot on my computer.

one of the biggest reasons i have switched started with the debacle that Dell gave Axim owners with the WM5 upgrade. for me it has gone down hill from there.

i know i have the Touch and not the iPhone, but i figured i would throw in my 2 cents.

have a great day everybody!

[elbowz]

Apple's treatment at the hands of the press is different from Microsoft's. Apple's users see Apple differently to how Microsoft's see Microsoft. There's an adage that says the best supported team in the world is whoever is currently playing against Manchester United. Its a similar thing with Microsoft.

However, how many times have you come within an ace of dashing your WinMo device against the nearest wall? My MDA Vario III has so many usability issues its untrue; the HTC Advantage is monstrously bad and going back through my (extensive) WinMo history I can find serious flaws in every device. Save the HTC S620, although even then only after the WM6 update cured some flaws. Some (like the XDA IIi's awful 5-way pad and SD slot flaw; iPaq 214's screen) are down to the OEM, but most rest squarely at Microsoft's door. How can WMP mobile be so god-awful; why is PIE still so limited after all these years; why can't Pocket Outlook handle HTML email on a push connection???

Remember MS are on their seventh major release of WinMo (and its precursors) in which time they haven't managed to sort a proper firmware update process (bugs in your device's version and your operator hasn't released an update? Tough); haven't managed to fix synchronisation woes (Activesync was nearly there at 4.5; Mobile Device Centre is a joke in very poor taste); still can't get WMP and WMP mobile to play nicely and haven't managed to sort out round tripping of Office documents. Whatever goodwill MS was owed over WinMo got used up a long time ago.

If Apple haven't sorted their problems by the time we're up to the seventh generation iPhone I should imagine they'll suffer in a similar way to Microsoft. Anyone think that's likely to happen?