[twalk]

Nope. As an MVP I'm under NDA and cannot publish anything unless Microsoft tells me it's public information. As an MVP I know far more than what I publish here.

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs. Each time info is released, it increases the chance for it to leak to the public.

DVI? You're going to crank out a whopping VGA signal and work on a desktop computer with that?

Why not? OQO, Sony Uxx, and Flipstart can, and they are only a little bigger than a PPC. Stick the DVI connector on a docking station and it's even easier to add.

And what are you going to plug into the USB master port? Take a look around at how many ARM-based USB product drivers there are for a reality-check as to how successful it's been so far. The harsh truth is that there just aren't enough PDA users to make it worthwhile for anyone to write ARM-based drivers. Mass storage and maybe a mouse and keyboard is about all you can do. Printers? No. Scanners? No. DVD burner? No.

If there isn't enough PDA users, then there aren't enough Mac users. They're roughly the same sales rate.

USB drivers are not that hard to write. Heck, there are templates that do most of the work for you for the common devices. The real reason there aren't USB drivers is that there isn't any devices that have USB master ports. (Actually I've heard of one, but just one.)

MS already has all the source to all the usb drivers that would be needed. They just need usb master ports on the devices and a few days to port the code. This is a solved problem, but MS just doesn't want to do it.

Look no offense intended, but current Pocket PCs would need significant improvements in order to do what you're asking for. We're talking 2-3 generations more before they'd be what I'd consider useful for a desktop replacement: 1024 x 768 resolution, real video cards capable of decent 2D pixel pushing quality, CPUs fast enough to keep up with keyboard input + multitasking, stability of a desktop OS, and a host of other things.

I don't know why you think that this is so complex. These are all old and already solved problems. Fast enough cpu for KB input + multitasking? Paaa-lease. A 400Mhz PPC can easily do full screen video + sound, a KB is nothing. 1024x768 resolution? Those chipsets have been around for nearly 15 years, with very low power/small size versions for 5+ years. OS stability? XP is *much* more complex, but more stable. Sounds like a lack of resources & QA. Pocket Office? MS has all the source from previous versions of Office to work from and people with decades of experience writing that type of software.

Don't get me wrong - the idea of giving someone a $500 Pocket PC with a few accessories and having it be their only computer really gets me excited, but it's just not going to happen for a long time, if at all, and it's not because of some tin-hat conspiracy to keep desktops in business. If the OEMs felt there was serious money to be made here, they'd be pushing this, but there isn't so they're not. HP was showing a concept device where a Pocket PC was connected to a keyboard + mouse + monitor, so they're thinking about this, but it's quite a few years in the future before it's realistic.

PDAs use old technology. There are only 2 reasons for why they don't have this technology out now. 1) They don't think that it will sell, in which case it will likely be never for this to come out on PPC. 2) They don't want any competition to laptops. HP & Dell don't want any competition there, because laptops have much greater profit margins. MS doesn't want any competition there, because PPC OS + Pocket Office is much, much less in cost than XP + Office.

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it. What I see is a determination to keep PPC as an attachment to a PC, and not as a possible replacement.

[twalk]

Nope. As an MVP I'm under NDA and cannot publish anything unless Microsoft tells me it's public information. As an MVP I know far more than what I publish here.

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs. Each time info is released, it increases the chance for it to leak to the public.

DVI? You're going to crank out a whopping VGA signal and work on a desktop computer with that?

Why not? OQO, Sony Uxx, and Flipstart can, and they are only a little bigger than a PPC. Stick the DVI connector on a docking station and it's even easier to add.

And what are you going to plug into the USB master port? Take a look around at how many ARM-based USB product drivers there are for a reality-check as to how successful it's been so far. The harsh truth is that there just aren't enough PDA users to make it worthwhile for anyone to write ARM-based drivers. Mass storage and maybe a mouse and keyboard is about all you can do. Printers? No. Scanners? No. DVD burner? No.

If there isn't enough PDA users, then there aren't enough Mac users. They're roughly the same sales rate.

USB drivers are not that hard to write. Heck, there are templates that do most of the work for you for the common devices. The real reason there aren't USB drivers is that there isn't any devices that have USB master ports. (Actually I've heard of one, but just one.)

MS already has all the source to all the usb drivers that would be needed. They just need usb master ports on the devices and a few days to port the code. This is a solved problem, but MS just doesn't want to do it.

Look no offense intended, but current Pocket PCs would need significant improvements in order to do what you're asking for. We're talking 2-3 generations more before they'd be what I'd consider useful for a desktop replacement: 1024 x 768 resolution, real video cards capable of decent 2D pixel pushing quality, CPUs fast enough to keep up with keyboard input + multitasking, stability of a desktop OS, and a host of other things.

I don't know why you think that this is so complex. These are all old and already solved problems. Fast enough cpu for KB input + multitasking? Paaa-lease. A 400Mhz PPC can easily do full screen video + sound, a KB is nothing. 1024x768 resolution? Those chipsets have been around for nearly 15 years, with very low power/small size versions for 5+ years. OS stability? XP is *much* more complex, but more stable. Sounds like a lack of resources & QA. Pocket Office? MS has all the source from previous versions of Office to work from and people with decades of experience writing that type of software.

Don't get me wrong - the idea of giving someone a $500 Pocket PC with a few accessories and having it be their only computer really gets me excited, but it's just not going to happen for a long time, if at all, and it's not because of some tin-hat conspiracy to keep desktops in business. If the OEMs felt there was serious money to be made here, they'd be pushing this, but there isn't so they're not. HP was showing a concept device where a Pocket PC was connected to a keyboard + mouse + monitor, so they're thinking about this, but it's quite a few years in the future before it's realistic.

PDAs use old technology. There are only 2 reasons for why they don't have this technology out now. 1) They don't think that it will sell, in which case it will likely be never for this to come out on PPC. 2) They don't want any competition to laptops. HP & Dell don't want any competition there, because laptops have much greater profit margins. MS doesn't want any competition there, because PPC OS + Pocket Office is much, much less in cost than XP + Office.

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it. What I see is a determination to keep PPC as an attachment to a PC, and not as a possible replacement.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by twalk

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs.

When I'm at an MVP event, I'm an MVP, not a guy with a Pocket PC site. MVPs respect their NDAs and as such are trusted with a great deal of information. even the bad news. I won't explain this again. Either call me a liar or let it go.

Originally Posted by twalk

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it.

I'm not saying it's technically impossible, I'm saying that market forces existing today make it completely unlikely and unrealistic. The costs of a Pocket PC like you're describing would be cost prohibitive - it's the same story as the people who want the Pocket PC with a 1 Ghz processor (Intel has them), 256 MB of RAM, two SD slots, one CF slot, 2000 mAH battery, 4" VGA screen, etc. Sure, it's possible. But who will buy a $1000 Pocket PC? In the same way, the "Pocket PC with a cradle replacing a desktop computer" scenario is a niche one, making the cost of the bundle cost prohibitive.

It's a pie in the sky scenario that has no basis in reality. I dearly WISH it would happen, but I've been in thus industry too long to believe it will happen anytime soon. As I said earlier, several years from now we might see it happen, but not now, and not because of some conspiracy to keep the Pocket PC down, which is what started this original thread.

No more posts from me on this subject, so enjoy having the last word. :wink:

[twalk]

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

When I'm at an MVP event, I'm an MVP, not a guy with a Pocket PC site. MVPs respect their NDAs and as such are trusted with a great deal of information. even the bad news. I won't explain this again. Either call me a liar or let it go.

At no point did I call you a liar, or imply it. I've just seen too many times where the people in a group get real excited by new stuff they are working on, announce it to all their partners, and then have upper management make major changes, or even kill the entire project. They never knew what hit them. I've seen that happen *way* too often.

I'm not saying that you're a liar, but I am questioning your idea that MS shares all the negative information about their products. I've never actually seen a company do that before, because it can potentially have a direct negative impact on sales. (More to the point, even though you're a MVP, *why* should they share all the negative info with you? I can't even image a company that shares all it's info.)

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

I'm not saying it's technically impossible, I'm saying that market forces existing today make it completely unlikely and unrealistic. The costs of a Pocket PC like you're describing would be cost prohibitive - it's the same story as the people who want the Pocket PC with a 1 Ghz processor (Intel has them), 256 MB of RAM, two SD slots, one CF slot, 2000 mAH battery, 4" VGA screen, etc. Sure, it's possible. But who will buy a $1000 Pocket PC? In the same way, the "Pocket PC with a cradle replacing a desktop computer" scenario is a niche one, making the cost of the bundle cost prohibitive.

It's a pie in the sky scenario that has no basis in reality. I dearly WISH it would happen, but I've been in thus industry too long to believe it will happen anytime soon. As I said earlier, several years from now we might see it happen, but not now, and not because of some conspiracy to keep the Pocket PC down, which is what started this original thread.

No more posts from me on this subject, so enjoy having the last word. :wink:

Contrary to what you might think, I'm not a troll. I really have wasted too much time on this thread, and will also drop it here.

You really do have an inflated idea about how much this would all cost. All I asked for was a couple usb master ports and a dvi output for hardware. That would add something like $20 to the parts cost. Maybe have it on a docking station. Laptop docking stations are very poor sellers, but yet usually cost <$200 for a much more powerful dock. Even if you add all the parts to the "super PPC" you list out above, you're still talking only <$200 more in parts, with no OS changes needed. This isn't a design/part cost issue, but a marketing issue.

I also think that you (and many other posters here) don't realize how paranoid MS is to any potential threat to Windows and Office. They've killed many a company for being a smaller threat than PPC is. PDAs fit the classical definition of a disruptive technology. If you don't know what that is, read "The Innovator's Dilemma", which is the classical work on the subject. MS can't take any chances here. Even small losses in marketshare for XP+Office add up to hundreds of millions of dollars.