[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by unxmully

So far I've not seen any justification for the arrogance tag.

If you don't think Apple is arrogant, read iCon. Jobs *is* Apple, and he's the most arrogant S.O.B. imaginable. He's a petulant child - a brilliant, visionary one at times - but a child nonetheless. This is the guy who was a multi-millionaire and wouldn't even acknowledge he'd fathered a child. This is the guy who would park in handicap parking spots. This is the guy who would go out for lunch with Apple staff and make his employees pay the bill.

Arrogance doesn't even begin to describe Steve Jobs, and almost everything that Apple does stems from his leadership. Apple is infused with his style, and yes, his arrogance.

There's a lot of things I admire about Apple, but their corporate arrogance is definitely NOT one of them. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by unxmully

So far I've not seen any justification for the arrogance tag.

If you don't think Apple is arrogant, read iCon. Jobs *is* Apple, and he's the most arrogant S.O.B. imaginable. He's a petulant child - a brilliant, visionary one at times - but a child nonetheless. This is the guy who was a multi-millionaire and wouldn't even acknowledge he'd fathered a child. This is the guy who would park in handicap parking spots. This is the guy who would go out for lunch with Apple staff and make his employees pay the bill.

Arrogance doesn't even begin to describe Steve Jobs, and almost everything that Apple does stems from his leadership. Apple is infused with his style, and yes, his arrogance.

There's a lot of things I admire about Apple, but their corporate arrogance is definitely NOT one of them. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by trepine

I am just happy that apple is willing to upgrade their products, even at a small cost. I owned 5 pocket pc phones before the iPhone, all of them had minimal if any software updates, and did nothing other than a few bug fixes.

Indeed, I look at the updates that Apple has released for the iPhone and I feel a twinge of jealousy - they're doing something that Microsoft has never been able to do: give the customer updates directly.

[unxmully]

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

If you don't think Apple is arrogant, read iCon. Jobs *is* Apple, and he's the most arrogant S.O.B. imaginable.

And you based all your views and invective on a book which has three reviews, one of which is:

This book is just a waste of paper. Half of it was lifted from other authors writing. It's very poorly written and is a lame attempt to cashin in on the iPod and Apples success by slamming Steve Jobs. Trees died for this?

And another:

This book stinks! And that's unfortunate because I had hoped for a definitive unauthorized biography of Jobs when I picked up a copy of iCon, but this isn't it. Not by a long shot.

Now come on Jason, that's not your normal style.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[unxmully]

Originally Posted by Russ Smith

"Buy" is the operative word there. You buy Apple. Then you buy it again when Apple changes enough that the OS no longer supports the hardware you have. "Arrogance" may be slightly too strong a word, but it's close enough for me to a company that says. "We don't like writing device drivers, so we'll just force you to buy an extremely small subset of what's available and, oh yes, we'll make it so you have to buy ours, not anyone else's (unless you like hacking systems) because we know what's best for you."

I think the point that you're missing is that Apple is, first and foremost and alway has been, a hardware vendor. Since I bought my first iBook in 2002, you've been able to run either OSX or Linux on all Apple hardware and now that they've transitioned to Intel you can run Windows XP of Vista if you choose.

You might as well criticise Microsoft for not porting Windows so you could run it on the PowerPC. Apple restrict their choice of hardware to differentiate them from a ton of other box shifters and it seems to me that they tend to go the premium route rather than the low-cost market but that's an aside.

"Wrong?" Not exactly. "Different" I'd buy. When Pocket PC OS first came out, Microsoft actually did a huge beta-testing/focus group thing that led to the conclusion that people would be happier with minimizing rather than closing, so they actually listened and did it that way. You can certainly argue (and I have) that they could make real closing easier to do when you want to. Compaq's (now HP's) iTask is basically created to do just that. You can also argue that they might have used a different icon to avoid confusion. I'd agree with that. What I can't agree with is that minimizing is wrong and closing is right.

I'd be interested in a cite for the close beta-testing work. My memory has been that people who expressed a preference generally go for click = close.

What I mean by open (as you thought) is that Microsoft's software runs on the vast majority of available hardware. (I really don't want to get into the open source debate here.) Microsoft's approach (generally) is to support as broad a base as possible. That makes sense when you're selling the OS, not the hardware, but it also makes sense to people like me who like to choose their own hardware.

As above, now that Apple are shipping intel you can add all of the Apple range to your list of possible choices.

From the Marriam-Webster Dictionary:
ar·ro·gance
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Yes, being English I well know what arrogant means, being more-or-less reviled for apparently being an arrogant race.

What I'm referring to is Apple's attitude that they'll decide what we consumers will get. They choose the hardware (within a very narrow sub-set). They choose the OS functionality. Our job is to recognize their genius and buy it. They're obviously right. How else could they have attained their 2.2% market share If that's not arrogance, it's a remarkable facsimile.

Errr, don't Sony do just the same thing? They build a pc to their spec and you either buy it or you don't. And if you want to run OSX that much then you buy Apple hardware. If not, you don't.

I still don't see that as arrogance, merely common sense.

The majority of people buying apple now are doing so for two reasons a) the style and b) the reliability. And they both come from Apple's approach to delivering hardware based on a limited set of chosen products.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by trepine

I am just happy that apple is willing to upgrade their products, even at a small cost.

Your full post was my thoughts exactly. And since I've finally broke free of WM and purchased an IPhone I couldn't be happier. Instead of being frustrated using my WM device year after year, I'm now excited again about a device and love to use the IPhone. I finally can feel the love again with a device.

[Russ Smith]

uxmully: Good counter-arguments. I does appear that we'll have to be satisfied with disagreeing on this. The only additional comment I'd make is that the English really don't hold a candle to the arrogance demonstrated by many American tourists. We actually seem to believe that anyone can understand (American) English if it's spoken slowly and loudly enough :roll:

About reviewers (in reference to your response to Jason's comments): There's a line from "Ratatouille" that comes to mind: "In many ways the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."

[guinness]

I look at it as this - Sony posted FW updates that enabled a web browser, Flash 6, and internet radio player, RSS feeds on my PSP over the years, for free.

None of which were the greatest apps in the world, but they were free, and that's basically what I view the apps for the Touch as - they're just extensions of the manufacturers' device, and help satisfy current and future users.

Comparing the apps to WM apps or major OS revisions (Leopard/Vista) is bit silly. WM apps are typically 3rd party, and you're buying it to fill a lack of functions in the built-in apps. And Leopard and Vista are the latest and greatest, even if all the features weren't mind-blowing.

The rest of MW didn't wow me, but I feel a bit better about buying my Mini last month in a way. I was expecting an update to it, and about all I saw was Apple TV 2 and an overpriced MB.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by unxmully

And you based all your views and invective on a book which has three reviews, one of which is...

If you're basing your opinion of a book on Amazon.com reviews, well, that's not saying much either. ;-) It's much better to read a book and decide for yourself. That's what I try to do.

My opinion about Steve Jobs doesn't come simply from iCon - it comes from every magazine article, TV appearance, Macworld keynote, and YouTube video I've seen. Hell, even if 50% of what was shown in "Pirates of Silicon Valley" is true, the guy's arrogant.

Frankly, I'm stunned that there's anyone out there that doesn't think Steve Jobs is arrogant. It's like denying gravity. :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by unxmully

The majority of people buying apple now are doing so for two reasons a) the style and b) the reliability. And they both come from Apple's approach to delivering hardware based on a limited set of chosen products.

Indeed, that's Apple's strength: it's a hell of a lot easier to deliver a great, almost magical experience, when you control the hardware, the software, and everything else that matters. That's what Apple's good at. And as long as you do things Apple's way, it's all good. But when you don't...nothing but frustration.

I won't repeat the whole sordid tale here, but go check out my post on Digital Home Thoughts from last year about me wanting to do something with iTunes that seemed amazingly simple, yet was impossible. That's one example of how Apple's corporate arrogance manifests itself in their products.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Frankly, I'm stunned that there's anyone out there that doesn't think Steve Jobs is arrogant. It's like denying gravity. :lol:

As a follow up, check out this article and this quote:

"I told Jobs that I had sat down with Microsoft's Robbie Bach last week at the Consumer Electronics Show. I mentioned that Bach was particularly optimistic about the new Zune, that it was now a worthy alternative to Apple's iPod. Asked Jobs: "Was he inebriated? Do you even know anyone who owns a Zune?" Touched a nerve, I suppose. Watch the video we loaded. It's a great exchange."

You can't possibly tell me that's not an massively arrogant response - it's completely insulting to Robbie Bach. 8O Even most of the ardent iPod fans (the ones I've read) admit that the v2 Zune is a decent player and a valid choice.