[Tim Williamson]

Okay, maybe the iPhone isn't "intuitive" since if you were raised using Pocket PC, then you're used to moving your stylus down to scroll down. But the iPhone scrolling is easy to use and understand after you've used it for 2 seconds.

Sorry, but I still don't get how moving your finger down to scroll down is easy to use, so would you move your finger left to scroll right?

I think you're just trying to be difficult now.

Okay, how about this example, pretend you're a Greek and you have a scroll in front of you that you're readin, which way do you move the paper to continue reading past the bottom of the scroll?

[Tim Williamson]

Okay, maybe the iPhone isn't "intuitive" since if you were raised using Pocket PC, then you're used to moving your stylus down to scroll down. But the iPhone scrolling is easy to use and understand after you've used it for 2 seconds.

Sorry, but I still don't get how moving your finger down to scroll down is easy to use, so would you move your finger left to scroll right?

I think you're just trying to be difficult now.

Okay, how about this example, pretend you're a Greek and you have a scroll in front of you that you're readin, which way do you move the paper to continue reading past the bottom of the scroll?

[Pony99CA]

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

Okay, maybe the iPhone isn't "intuitive" since if you were raised using Pocket PC, then you're used to moving your stylus down to scroll down.

Exactly. And it's not just scroll bars, either. On a PC, pressing the Page Down and down arrows keys move you down the document, too. My main device is actually a Windows Mobile Smartphone (the Motorola Q9m), which has a directional pad but no touchscreen, and I press down to move down and up to move up.

So "down" actions in my mind are associated with moving down, so I assumed moving your finger down also moved you down the document.

I asked my wife the same question I asked my daughter. She said she'd put her finger on the right and move the bar down. When I said the iPhone didn't have scroll bars, she said she'd move her finger down, too.

Remember that every Mac and PC user is probably familiar with scroll bars, which is why I think all three of us thought the iPhone would work differently than it really does.

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

But the iPhone scrolling is easy to use and understand after you've used it for 2 seconds.

I don't disagree, and said that the iPhone model made sense. I'm just trying to point out that it's not obvious beforehand (and therefore not intuitive). It's certainly easily learned, though.

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

Sorry, but I still don't get how moving your finger down to scroll down is easy to use, so would you move your finger left to scroll right?

No, I'd move my finger to the right to scroll right (just like I'd move finger down to scroll down). On the iPhone, though, it sounds like you do move your finger left to scroll right, so I don't get your point.

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

I think you're just trying to be difficult now.

No, I'm trying to get people to understand that "intuition" is not universal and "intuitive" is not the same as "easy to learn".

I'm not saying the iPhone's method is "wrong" or anything. Both methods are 'right" depending on your expectations, and somebody expecting one way will find the other way non-intuitive.

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

Okay, how about this example, pretend you're a Greek and you have a scroll in front of you that you're readin, which way do you move the paper to continue reading past the bottom of the scroll?

Obviously, I'd move the paper up, but that's because I'm manipulating the document and there's no separate viewport involved. The computing device is like a viewport, so it's less obvious when making a gesture whether you're interacting with the document or the viewport.

For example, if a motion sensor controlled scrolling (maybe it does on the iPhone?), if I moved the device to the right, I'd expect to see the right part of the document; if I moved the device down, I'd expect to see the bottom part of the document.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I'm not arguing the learning vs. intuition point. It's a waste of time. You're welcome to have whatever view you want on the subject.

I generally don't watch computer videos.

So you'd rather spend much more time commenting on a thread instead of playing with an iPhone or checking out a CES video for a few minutes (as you can easily jump through it to see some of the UI features, and the demo portion of the video is about 20 minutes and is extremely relevant to this thread)? Okay, have fun. It really doesn't make for a worthwhile discussion to me, then.

Thanks for answering my question about the Pre's scrolling model, even with the dig about it being the only "reasonable" metaphor.

It's not a dig. The implementation of list scrolling where the list moves in the OPPOSITE direction of which you swipe requires a complex acceleration model, and makes for incredibly difficult selection. The only situation in which it makes sense is if you're using a pointer or mouse model, which is precisely what text or list selection does.

--janak

[jeansonline]

First Let's see how much it costs.

[Macguy59]

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

I can't believe you would argue it's not intuitive.

I think too often people confuse intuitive with a previously 'learned' behavior.

[Macguy59]

Originally Posted by Pony99CA

Thanks for answering my question about the Pre's scrolling model, even with the dig about it being the only "reasonable" metaphor.

Originally Posted by Pony99CA

Nothing will kill the iPhone as long as there are Apple fanboys around.

Pot meet kettle

[Tim Williamson]

Originally Posted by Macguy59

Pot meet kettle

Why do you have to bump old threads? I thought we already came to a conclusion...Pony99CA was wrong and the rest of us were right.

[Macguy59]

Originally Posted by Tim Williamson

Why do you have to bump old threads? I thought we already came to a conclusion...Pony99CA was wrong and the rest of us were right.

I've been really busy of late and am just now getting around to some threads. Please carry on