[marlof]

Originally Posted by ptyork

First, what the heck does Socialism have to do with this?

I don't know. But to be fair: it's not Moaske that brought this into the argument. From the original post:

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Do we really need socialism on our computers?

[marlof]

Originally Posted by ptyork

First, what the heck does Socialism have to do with this?

I don't know. But to be fair: it's not Moaske that brought this into the argument. From the original post:

Originally Posted by Jason Dunn

Do we really need socialism on our computers?

[moaske]

Thanks Marlof....that's exactly what i was responding to...
Maybe i should have added on the bottom of my post: "start flaming"....

True, socialism didn't do the USSR much good, but then again we aren't talking about a little socialism here anymore... It's a comparison that just misses the target completely.

Leaving the market completely free and to itself ain't the way to go either... It makes companies too powerfull, and when a company grows too big it will stop competition merely by it's dominance alone, and eventually the day will come that they will misuse their position... (like the OPEC did).
Jason argued that this a technological issue... I think it ain't... This has to do with the EU's frantic efforts to reduce monopolies on a otherwise free market, and so just to initiate more competition. They do it to all our mobile operators as well; the EU sets maximum tarifs for data and speech and roaming... Until now that ruling generated only more players on the market; that's good ain't it?
It will never become socialism like the USSR, because the world has seen that system fail utterly... The only thing that makes it tech is this: socialism like the USSR model stops innovation, and that can never happen for a healthy competitive market... i agree!

I still think the Mobile part is a silly rule (aspecially because it's insane to reduce marketshare that's non-existent), but don't you guys on the other side of the Atlantic think that it's just US companies that get picked on by the EU....examples over here are numerous!

[Rahza]

I just don't understand what the EU's problem is!

For example, you don't tell a car company to remove the steering wheel from their cars, just because it isn't fair for companies that make steering wheels solely?

This whole affair is just laughable. If this continues we will have to buy stuff in seperate parts and solder them together ourselfs. Nice future prospect. But atleast all companies have "fair competition". Yeah right.

[griph]

I hope that you guys aren't inferring that everyone in the EU are "Morons", "Incompetent" etc. ;-) I am sure you wouldn't want us European Union citizens to be saying the same about the US!

[Gti]

This is a today news: the Anti Trust Italian autority want make under penalty of Eur 12.500.000 some maccheroni (pasta!) big industries. They are charged of an oligopolistic agreement to take expensive the maccheroni price. 12.5 Millions, only in Italy, just for pasta... They are the rules of a real free market.
Kind regards from Europe, Jason!

Link (google "translated"):
http://translate.google.it/translate...hl=it&ie=UTF-8

[Bob Christensen]

Originally Posted by Stinger

Don't mistake incompetence for malice.

No mistake... there is plenty of incompetence AND malice.

[doogald]

Originally Posted by Rahza

I just don't understand what the EU's problem is!

For example, you don't tell a car company to remove the steering wheel from their cars, just because it isn't fair for companies that make steering wheels solely?

This whole affair is just laughable. If this continues we will have to buy stuff in seperate parts and solder them together ourselfs. Nice future prospect. But atleast all companies have "fair competition". Yeah right.

I can't believe that I seriously need to remind people of this, but, here we go.

Ok, let's say that there is a company that, in Europe, sells about 95% of the controls that are used for automobiles. That company's (let's call it "Macrofirm") controls come with a joystick that the driver uses to control steering.

Along comes a company (let's call it "Grosspoint") starts selling this cool steering wheel that plugs into a Macrofirm control and allows you to steer the car with it instead of the joystick, if you wish. There are a lot of people who really like this idea; many people start buying Grosspoint steering wheels.

Suddenly, Macrofirm comes out with a new version of the controls, but they also allow you to add a steering wheel that they manufacture to replace the joystick. However, they add the steering wheel for no additional cost to their controls.

Since they have 95% of the market for auto controls, almost every control that is purchased is from Macrofirm. Their customers are very, very unlikely to pay extra for a Grosspoint steering wheel. Grosspoint complains to the authorities, saying that Macrofirm is using their control of the marketplace to kick Grosspoint out. Macrofirm is already operating under an agreement (agreement = they agree) to not use their market position to add features to their controls that other companies make, as they have done this very thing before. But rather than admit that they broke their agreement, they resist any sanction, they insist that they cannot sell a version of their controls without a steering wheel, despite the fact that plenty of experts show that it's quite possible to sell these controls without a Macrofirm steering wheel. Well, they lose their case, lose their appeals, and then, when their penalty is given to them - they must release to potential makers of other controls that could plug into the system exactly how pieces of it interact, so that they can create other pieces, to replace brakes, say, or gear shifters, and they must allow their customers to offer other steering wheels from other companies rather than just their own, as well as selling a version of the controls without the steering wheel - well, Macrofirm drags their heels on this as well.

(You can also replace Macrofirm and Grosspoint with BU&U and NDJ for another US example of this.)

That's what the EU's problem is. When you break regulations, break consent agreements, receive punishment for it, but delay taking the punishment, these are the consequences that you face.

And, yes, the Windows Mobile thing is dumb. But it's not like Microsoft has not earned these sanctions. They tried awfully hard to avoid punishment, stupidly, and they continue to pay the price.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by griph

I hope that you guys aren't inferring that everyone in the EU are "Morons", "Incompetent" etc. ;-)

I don't think anyone is saying that - I definitely wasn't. I think the universal rule is that politicians, no matter where they are in the world, share the same pool of brain cells for the most part.

[Christopher]

Oh... these are posts, now by JD, that really make me sad. And then the discussion contributions.

Hey, if you young people really think you are so smart... why don't you study economics or politics. The unfortunate thing is that you would probably see things a bit different afterwords.

I assume staying away from a this site is the best thing to do. You really make me sad.

[Jason Dunn]

Originally Posted by doogald

That company's (let's call it "Macrofirm") controls come with a joystick that the driver uses to control steering...Along comes a company (let's call it "Grosspoint") starts selling this cool steering wheel that plugs into a Macrofirm control and allows you to steer the car with it instead of the joystick, if you wish. There are a lot of people who really like this idea; many people start buying Grosspoint steering wheels. Suddenly, Macrofirm comes out with a new version of the controls, but they also allow you to add a steering wheel that they manufacture to replace the joystick. However, they add the steering wheel for no additional cost to their controls. Since they have 95% of the market for auto controls, almost every control that is purchased is from Macrofirm.

So by your logic, Macrofirm isn't allowed to improve their cars in any that competes with products that anyone else has made. They couldn't add CD players if a third party was making CD players for their cars. They couldn't offer better tires on their cars if someone else was offering better after-market tires. They couldn't add heated seats if someone else was offering it. Year after year the Macrofirm car would stay the same, never improving, for fear of someone getting angry with them and launching a lawsuit. How does that help me as a consumer? Lawsuits should never be launched to stifle competition.

Companies, of all types, will try to continue to improve their products. I want that. I like that. If companies such as Grosspoint want to get my money, they need to innovate and offer something better than what I'm getting for free. If they can't, they deserve to perish as a business. As long as Macrofirm isn't trying to stop Grosspoint's product from working in my car (which would be unfair, and if that happened, that should get slapped), why would I care about one company competing with another company? If it benefits me as a consumer, giving me a better product, more choices, etc., I'm all for it.

The numbers that the EU are demanding for payment are simply ridiculous, as are proposed "solutions".