WSJ Loves HD2 Hardware - Software Not So Much

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704133804575198212544757750.html' target='_blank'>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...2544757750.html</a><br /><br /></div><p>Walt Mossberg at the Wall Street Journal reviewed the HD2 from T-Mobile and has mixed feelings about it. He likes the hardware, especially the screen. When it comes to the software, including HTC's UI customizations though, he was less than thrilled.</p><p><em>"However, I found the HD2 to be significantly inferior overall to touch-screen rivals from Apple and Google, mainly because of its software, based on the aging mobile Windows platform from Microsoft. While HTC has added its own software overlay to dress up the design, I still found using the HD2 to be too often a chore. It looks cluttered, a patchwork of different interfaces. And, in my tests, it was prone to error messages and even freezing. Also, despite a fast processor, the software responded sluggishly too much of the time."</em></p><p>I think that about sums up the Windows Mobile experience in recent years as Microsoft has allowed (encouraged?) OEM's to tweak the WinMo user interface, or replace it entirely. Here's hoping Windows Phone 7 changes all of that and Microsoft once again takes control of the screen with a consistent and smooth interface.</p>

[randalllewis]

One of the constants of the universe is that Walt Mossberg won't like a Microsoft product. I don't expect that to change with WP7. "It's like looking through a Window at your interface instead of having all of your icons in neat and orderly columns." Or something like that.

I don't bother reading this columnist any more, so tell me, did he actually describe the phone he said he was reviewing this time?

[Jason Dunn]

I don't bother reading this columnist any more, so tell me, did he actually describe the phone he said he was reviewing this time?

It was pretty typical for Mossberg. He complained about the big clock and the fact that he could have only nine favourite icons on the home screen - and completely ignored all of the glanceable information that comes from the lock screen, the home screen, and HTC's incredibly powerful Sense interface. Basically, the best parts of the phone.

But he was right on the money about touch malfunctions, occasional sluggish performance and momentary freezes. As good as the HD2 is, it's still running Windows Mobile 6.5...

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

1200 apps? That's sloppy journalism; needs to state that's from the (underwhelming) Marketplace. He should know better than that! The very least he could do is to say that users will have to install them via other sources, which may not be the most accessible way, but will yield a lot more software.

And Sense is TEH awesome. Only reason that the HD2 is still worth getting, if you ask me.

[Jason Dunn]

1200 apps? That's sloppy journalism; needs to state that's from the (underwhelming) Marketplace. He should know better than that!

Yeah, it's one of the sucky parts of mainstream journalists covering technology; they generally don't understand things to the depth they should...they go with the easy answer. Walt probably knows that there are 50K+ apps out there for Windows Mobile, but it fits his narrative better to compare app store to app store. :rolleyes:

[Fritzly]

My HTC HD2 with 6.5.3 and Co0kie Home Tab is a much better than the original Sense UI.
I am not so crazy about the original Sense UI; in fact until I got Co0kie I used the original WM 6.5 interface but this is just a matter of personal preference.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yeah, it's one of the sucky parts of mainstream journalists covering technology; they generally don't understand things to the depth they should...they go with the easy answer. Walt probably knows that there are 50K+ apps out there for Windows Mobile, but it fits his narrative better to compare app store to app store. :rolleyes:

True, but consider his audience. People that read tech blogs don't read Mossberg for advice, if at all. The average joe does though, and the average joe will do no more than look at the competing app stores.

What does irritate me is the iPhone app store count. Some 20-30% aren't apps, but books. take that out and it is still 120,000 vs 1,200.

After having been open six months, the marketplace for Mobile has been a less than stellar success. I hope MS does something to stimulate development for WinPho7, like eliminate the fee, reduced their cut or both for a period of time until there are a plenty of choices for users.

[Ed Hansberry]

My HTC HD2 with 6.5.3 and Co0kie Home Tab is a much better than the original Sense UI.
I am not so crazy about the original Sense UI; in fact until I got Co0kie I used the original WM 6.5 interface but this is just a matter of personal preference.

I am not a fan of any of HTC's UI's, so you are not alone.

[Jason Dunn]

After having been open six months, the marketplace for Mobile has been a less than stellar success. I hope MS does something to stimulate development for WinPho7, like eliminate the fee, reduced their cut or both for a period of time until there are a plenty of choices for users.

I think the rather paltry number of apps is a direct result of the fragment nature of Windows Mobile; it's just too hard for developers to target every device out there and make money.

With the unified, kick-ass hardware platform that Windows Phone 7 represents, I think we'll see some GREAT developer pick-up.

[Jason Dunn]

I am not a fan of any of HTC's UI's, so you are not alone.

I wasn't either, generally because it was all so slow and more eye candy than real functionality; but that all changed for me when I got the HD2. HTC Sense just FLIES on the hardware, and the functionality is fantastic - HTC really did some great work hiding the ugliest parts of Windows Mobile 6.5.

[bitbank]

I find it interesting that many journalists/bloggers with a negative bias towards Microsoft keep jumping on the issue of "dead end" and "not upgradeable". In the last 10 years, when has upgradeability really meant anything for phones? By the time the phone needs a software upgrade, the hardware is obsolete or broken. I have an HD2 and I could care less that it's not upgradeable. I intend to use it as long as I find it useful and then sell it to get the next greatest thing. I'm also in no hurry to have a Windows 7 phone because I'll lose all of my native code apps :(.

I think all of the press emphasis on the OS deflects less technical users from making good choices. The 10 key ingredients for a modern smartphone (not in any particular order):

1) Does it work well as a phone? Reception, voice quality, bluetooth options.
2) Easily synchronize contacts?
3) Good email client?
4) Good web browser?
5) Good camera/photo/video experience?
6) Good multimedia experience?
7) Decent apps/games available?
8) Physical characteristics (keyboard, display, buttons, size/weight, battery life)
9) Supported by a good carrier?
10) Good data plan?

WM 6.5 does well on most of those points. A few GUI quirks doesn't bother me.

[doogald]

What does irritate me is the iPhone app store count. Some 20-30% aren't apps, but books. take that out and it is still 120,000 vs 1,200.

You should see the Android market. They say that there are 48,000 apps, but it seems that most of them are skins for various home replacements, or Steve Jobs "porn" apps.

[doogald]

With the unified, kick-ass hardware platform that Windows Phone 7 represents, I think we'll see some GREAT developer pick-up.


If there are ever any openings in Microsoft's marketing or PR team, you should consider applying.

I do wonder - will Microsoft need to sell a certain number of phones in order to lure developers to the platform? Will developers be willing to spend the time to develop for the platform with no guarantee that there will be sales going forward?

[Jason Dunn]

I find it interesting that many journalists/bloggers with a negative bias towards Microsoft keep jumping on the issue of "dead end" and "not upgradeable". In the last 10 years, when has upgradeability really meant anything for phones?

You're thinking "Operating System Upgrade", but the broader impact of device updates is felt in bug fixing and small feature updates/improvements. Every single Windows Mobile phone I've owned has had irritating bugs, and they NEVER get fixed because the carrier/OEM doesn't want to go through the hassle of fixing them. My Samsung Blackjack with Windows Mobile 6.1? Even when in silent or vibrate mode, reminders still chimed. HUGELY irritating! Never fixed.

I don't know if I buy the argument that OS upgrades don't matter though either; phone hardware from a performance perspective hasn't changed THAT much every 12 months...and now that these phones are coming with 1 Ghz CPUs and dedicated GPUs, they have the guts to last.

[Jason Dunn]

If there are ever any openings in Microsoft's marketing or PR team, you should consider applying.

I'm going to take that as a compliment, though that lack of a smiley likely means you meant it in the opposite way. ;)

I do wonder - will Microsoft need to sell a certain number of phones in order to lure developers to the platform? Will developers be willing to spend the time to develop for the platform with no guarantee that there will be sales going forward?

I'm not a developer, but something I've heard over and over again is that Microsoft isn't focused on saying "Develop only for our platform!" - they're saying "Take your iPhone or Andriod app and port it to Windows phone 7 - we have a great platform too!". It can be expensive to develop complex mobile apps, and if it's not much work to port the app to another platform, as a developer, why wouldn't you do that? More platforms = more sales. Also, there will be an interesting first-mover advantage on Windows phone 7...unlike the Apple App Store, with their 100K+ apps, it's easier to be noticed on a smaller app store.

[Fritzly]

More platforms = more sales.

Not exactly: You cannot verticalize all your development costs; For each platform you decide to port your apps to there are related costs that are specific for it. So it makes sense to do so only if the platform has or will reach, but this is a bet, an X value of popularity. If it does not the project could just reach the break-even point or, worse, be a loss.
I foresee an initial spark of interest for WP7 caused by the novelty factor; but then the users will begin to be affected by the artificial limitations and constrains MS set for the OS and this will create a negative image about it.
Hopefully WP8, or WP7.XX, will rescue Wp7 as Windows 7 rescued Vista.

[Jason Dunn]

Not exactly: You cannot verticalize all your development costs; For each platform you decide to port your apps to there are related costs that are specific for it.

OK, fine, if you want to go all Ferengi on this... :)

Profit = Sales - (Development Costs + Distribution Costs)

I foresee an initial spark of interest for WP7 caused by the novelty factor; but then the users will begin to be affected by the artificial limitations and constrains MS set for the OS and this will create a negative image about it. Hopefully WP8, or WP7.XX, will rescue Wp7 as Windows 7 rescued Vista.

Artificial limitations and constraints? As they relate to apps? How so? Games are the #1 selling category of app, and with XNA 4.0 for developing and the Xbox Live connection, Windows phone 7 seems to have all the pieces to be a premiere gaming platform, which developers are going to love.

If you're talking about native vs. managed code, the only apps users will see are the ones that get developed, so it's not like any user will be saying "Oh, darn, I really need to see some native apps here, all these managed codes apps are just no good!". :D

[Fritzly]

OK, fine, if you want to go all Ferengi on this... :)

Profit = Sales - (Development Costs + Distribution Costs)



Artificial limitations and constraints? As they relate to apps? How so? Games are the #1 selling category of app, and with XNA 4.0 for developing and the Xbox Live connection, Windows phone 7 seems to have all the pieces to be a premiere gaming platform, which developers are going to love.

If you're talking about native vs. managed code, the only apps users will see are the ones that get developed, so it's not like any user will be saying "Oh, darn, I really need to see some native apps here, all these managed codes apps are just no good!". :D

What relates to apps is how may devices will be sold, ergo no removable storage, no cabs apps etc. etc. will, in my opionion, affect mid/long term sales.

A for native vs. managed apps check how crippled is Pocket Informant Agenda for Apple compared to the one for WM......

But again, do not dispare! At the end of the tunnel there is the light; as I earlier stated from the ashes of WP7 MS will build something great and in the meantime you will enjoy the booming of your android site............................... :-)

[Jason Dunn]

What relates to apps is how may devices will be sold, ergo no removable storage, no cabs apps etc. etc. will, in my opionion, affect mid/long term sales.

But how many people do you really think care about that? Lots of people here on this site, but the general population? Nah.

My dad had a Windows Mobile Standard smartphone from the local CDMA carrier here (Telus) and no word of a lie, he didn't even KNOW he could install third party apps onto it. And why would he? It didn't come with an on-device app store, and there's absolutely nothing intuitive about knowing you should go to Handango or MobiHand and download apps. On the other hand, all on his own, he's found a bunch of apps on his iPhone that he enjoys. That's the reality of how things work with the general population.

A for native vs. managed apps check how crippled is Pocket Informant Agenda for Apple compared to the one for WM......

But, again, only the geeky few will know/understand that. Most people buying Windows phone 7 devices won't know what they're missing, so it's not going to impact them.

[doogald]

I'm going to take that as a compliment, though that lack of a smiley likely means you meant it in the opposite way. ;).

Oh, no. It was definitely a slam of Microsoft's historic "marketing" efforts. Your sentence implied an enthusiasm for WP7 that I do not expect to hear from Microsoft marketing. I know that their initial presentation was decent, and I know that Steve Ballmer will talk it up enthusiastically, but I am guessing that the official marketing will be more like a guy whispering in your ear, "Psst! Here's a cool new phone. Did you notice? No pressure to buy one, though!"

[Jason Dunn]

I am guessing that the official marketing will be more like a guy whispering in your ear, "Psst! Here's a cool new phone. Did you notice? No pressure to buy one, though!"

We were talking about apps though and developer evangelism - Microsoft is quite good at that overall...

I agree with you on overall marketing stuff - it's been SUPER weak historically. Also hoping that will change with WP7. :o

[Fritzly]

But, again, only the geeky few will know/understand that. Most people buying Windows phone 7 devices won't know what they're missing, so it's not going to impact them.

I am a MS shareholder so I hope you will be right but... all the people that use WM for business will note and geeks can be very vocal and have a big impact on the general audience; again Vista docet........

[maxnix]

Mossberg is a relic who thinks the best hand held device ever made was the original Palm Pilot. He is totally irrelevant, even to himself.

[maxnix]

Every single Windows Mobile phone I've owned has had irritating bugs, and they NEVER get fixed because the carrier/OEM doesn't want to go through the hassle of fixing them. My Samsung Blackjack with Windows Mobile 6.1? Even when in silent or vibrate mode, reminders still chimed. HUGELY irritating! Never fixed.

Don't know about that particular Samsung, but WM6.1 allows control of sound and vibration for each notification. Not even mentioning Phone Alarm with its profiles.

Almost every "bug" or inconvenience I ran across was fixed by some enterprising individual somewhere, and most fixes are free?

Anyone ever cooked or flashed an Android or Apple phone?

[maxnix]

I think the rather paltry number of apps is a direct result of the fragment nature of Windows Mobile; it's just too hard for developers to target every device out there and make money.
I totally disagree! I think is is because WM has always shipped a complete and compelling product. And the developers were there with free glitch fixes and application enhancements if required.

Who really wants to browse throught even 100 applications? I have neither the time nor the inclination. That target market is the jobless teenager or slacker who does not have to be productive.

Now I am going to go "clink" my phone to pass a contact. Puhhhlleeeeze!

[Jason Dunn]

Don't know about that particular Samsung, but WM6.1 allows control of sound and vibration for each notification. Not even mentioning Phone Alarm with its profiles.

Oh, trust me, this was a genuine bug. Hard resetting it didn't fit it, and no other WM 6.1 phone I had would manifest the same problem. Samsung screwed up the 6.1 build for Rogers, and no one would take responsibility and fix it. The OEMs and mobile operators have been screwing this up for YEARS and 2010 is when it all stops...with Windows phone 7. I can't wait!

[Jason Dunn]

I totally disagree! I think is is because WM has always shipped a complete and compelling product. And the developers were there with free glitch fixes and application enhancements if required.

Wait a second - you're saying that the reason there are only 1200 applications in the Windows Marketplace for Mobile is because Windows Mobile is just *so* awesome that it doesn't *need* applications? Are you serious? You can't be serious. :confused:

There are probably 50K Windows Mobile apps out there that have been created over the years - they're just not in the Marketplace catalogue. And they weren't created because Windows Mobile is or is not a "complete and compelling" product - developers like to develop, and no operating system can ever deliver everything someone needs/wants right out of the box.

Who really wants to browse throught even 100 applications? I have neither the time nor the inclination. That target market is the jobless teenager or slacker who does not have to be productive.

You do realize that Apple has distributed more than 1 BILLION applications so far? Hell, they did it in 9 months. You really think it's all jobless teenagers? Come on now...you can't be serious.

Your entire post is a joke, right? You're just pulling my leg? :confused:

[starstreak]

I think this smells too much like Windows vs every other OS thing. The moment someone hears windows, they chime in and say "it's slow. it crashes. the interface sucks." I've seen android. I've tried an iphone. Both of which are good now. The iphone I tried crashed. And some apps ran slow. How can he say the HD2 was cluttered? Has he used an iphone? It's starting page is a SMALL clock in the corner, with about a billion app buttons. Right...

I'm not saying the HD2 doesn't lag, or crash. But blaming it on Windows OS is BS. Unlike Apple which has one phone, MS for once allowed a billion combinations of phones to use the OS. And for that, it will come with issues. Same for the PC home computer. You have a choice on what to make of your system. Does Apple do that? Not really. So the OS is very tight. What happens when someone makes a new printer? Oh-oh. Apple can't use it.

It's too easy to blame the OS. And people need to stop doing that and saying that's why it sucks. If HTC got rid of the start button and window logos on the phone, 90% of people looking at the phone would've never guessed it was a windows phone.

True story. Someone asked me what new Apple phone I had. I said oh yeah, check this out. I have an app that allows me to change the front page to show a larger clock (HTC sense). And show my appointments. Showed him the compass, which he's seen on a iphone. a 5MP camera with 2 LED lights that can be used as a flashlight. I showed him the app (Pocket Informant) that gave me a calender with actual text on the dates to tell me whats happening instead of "dots". Nothing crashed. I showed him my GPS app(Co-Pilot) with voice for street names.
Then I busted out Microsoft Voice. I asked it what my battery life was, what time is it, what's my next appointment. I even asked it to dial a phone number by saying the numbers to dial.

He was blown away by it. He couldn't wait for that to be his next iPhone. Then I told him it was a HTC HD2. A windows mobile phone.

"Oh..I heard windows mobile is crap(replace with another word). Crashes alot and iphone blows it away. Wait till you see what Apple comes out next." I was like wait. You just saw the phone in action. He responded "Nah, I'll get a iPhone. Vista sucks ass, I don't trust MS."

The phone worked. But he had to chime in and start with the windows sucks.

Windows or Microsoft is far from perfect but people make it out far worse than what it really is.

[Bob Anderson]

I wasn't either, generally because it was all so slow and more eye candy than real functionality; but that all changed for me when I got the HD2. HTC Sense just FLIES on the hardware, and the functionality is fantastic - HTC really did some great work hiding the ugliest parts of Windows Mobile 6.5.

I agree that the WinMo interface has gotten a bit long in the tooth, but I just hate having these hardware manufacturers trying to "cover up" the experience. It usually ends up being inconsistent, parts with the new interface and parts without, hogs system resources that I would rather have dedicated for real "work" and seems like a total waste of time and energy by developers. The first thing I did when I got my Omnia II was disable TouchWiz... unfortunately the tentacles are still attached in places and I deal with what Samsung thinks is a good interface! (When I show the device to friends, the most often comment made is about the screen, then why the interface seems to change so much!) So, basically I agree with Walt on the "inconsistent interface" comments.

I'm praying that the WP7 experience not only includes a ground-breaking interface (which it looks like it will) but I also hope MSFT keeps it moving along (via upgrades) instead of neglecting it for so long.

[jason mazzon]

Smart Phones, Super Smart Phones... what nonsense. The business phone is dead. What passes for a smart phone today is nothing but an advanced communication device aimed mostly at the teen-agers market. Walt Mossberg has a lot to do with this trend. Walt Mossberg an oracle for the tech reviewers industry has a lot of push with what he says. The main problem with his reviews is that they are based on his propensity for brand allegiance and not on a deep, objective, technical look into the gadgets that he writes about. He has depended too much on the name that he has built in the industry for himself and with that all he has to do is give a superficial look at the ware that he's reviewing and wave his hands at it if he does not like it. This attitude and style of reviewing technical ware is picked up by the youngsters at tech blog sites such as gizmodo.com,engadget.com, etc. and it is done with an arrogant attitude that leaves a lot of the more knowledgeable audience out here gasping for air.

The HTC HD2 is not a phone for the average user, and the most that Mossberg could have said was that this phone is not for the average Joe instead of just dismissing it. God, it is hard to jump out of the box that you are in so that you can see that there are four walls outside also.

[Paragon]

I think the rather paltry number of apps is a direct result of the fragment nature of Windows Mobile; it's just too hard for developers to target every device out there and make money.

Rather paltry number? There are 10's, possibly 100's, of thousands of apps for WM. Just like most products available today, you can go to many different places to get them. You don't need to go to one single, controlled, place to get them, so keeping a running count is impossible. The reason that Marketplace has done so poorly is simply the fact that no one wants to jumping through the hoops, and pay the cost of putting their apps on a site catering to an OS with an end of life so close. Why bother?

Apps and hardware have very little to do with the success of WP7. It has everything to do with marketing. If they advertise the hell out of it, it will succeed. The most popular beer in any market area is always the one with the most exposure. The most popular car is the one that is advertised the most. The most popular laundry detergent is the one you see on TV the most. In the beginning the iPhone had very few apps, and limited features, but it sold like crazy because Apple knows how to hype its products. If Microsoft continues to leave it up to its partners to carry the advertising ball, it will flop. If they just do a so so job of advertising it, it will flop. They MUST push it hard in all their markets.

Dave

[Jason Dunn]

"Oh..I heard windows mobile is crap(replace with another word). Crashes alot and iphone blows it away. Wait till you see what Apple comes out next." I was like wait. You just saw the phone in action. He responded "Nah, I'll get a iPhone. Vista sucks ass, I don't trust MS."

Wow. Great story - it really shows how badly Microsoft has stumbled in the mindshare department; Microsoft let Apple beat them up - badly - with all their Mac vs. PC ads, and even though Vista was a perfectly fine OS with modern hardware, it got a reputation for being junk. I've seen this many times, sadly: people don't like Vista, yet they can't explain why.

Windows Mobile is kind of in the same boat: Microsoft let Apple, Google, and even RIM define the market and shape people's expectations of what a smartphone should be - TOUCH TOUCH TOUCH - and Microsoft got left behind in the dust.

That's really what Windows phone 7 is about more than anything else: a radical reboot of the whole mobile franchise to show the media and the world that Windows phone matters.

[Jason Dunn]

...but I also hope MSFT keeps it moving along (via upgrades) instead of neglecting it for so long.

This comment may come back to bite me in the butt later, but I really do believe that Microsoft has learned their lesson about being complacent in the mobile space and they'll keep putting big effort into it...unless they somehow capture a big chunk of the market and feel like they've "won", then they'll become complacent again. :rolleyes: But I doubt that will happen given their competition isn't Palm this time, it's Apple, Google, and RIM.

[Jason Dunn]

Rather paltry number? There are 10's, possibly 100's, of thousands of apps for WM. Just like most products available today, you can go to many different places to get them.

Dave, did you happen to read Walt's article? He was talking about the number of apps in the Marketplace store - and that's what I was referring to as well. It really doesn't matter if there are 100,000 Windows Mobile apps out there - if they're hard to find, it's a moot point. On-device app stores are the gold standard now, period, end of story.

Agreed 100% with you on the advertising issue; Microsoft has let their partners screw up the advertising of Windows phones for far too long - Microsoft needs to do it themselves, and do a great job at it. They need to take it to the level of Windows 7 - I see Windows 7 commercials on TV all the time, just like I see iPhone commercials.

[Fritzly]

On-device app stores are the gold standard now, period, end of story.


They are indeed for Apple, MS etc. etc.; for a customer? Not necessarily; considering the "remote kill switch" I woul add not at all.

Check how many iPhone are jailbroken in order to bypass the store; within three months we will see a jailbroken solution for WP7 too.

[Jason Dunn]

Check how many iPhone are jailbroken in order to bypass the store

Got any stats on that? I'd guess maybe 1%, no more. Not enough to matter. The general user market just doesn't care about stuff like that.

[Ed Hansberry]

Got any stats on that? I'd guess maybe 1%, no more. Not enough to matter. The general user market just doesn't care about stuff like that.

I'd be surprised if it even that high. Jailbreaking is something many talk about and few do, and most have never heard of. It is just the vocal fringe. Same reason Linux gets so much talk. A pittance of share on the desktop but boy to people talk about it all day long, even today, like it is ubiquitous.

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Hmm. I think I know about 30 iPhone users, both personally and not-so-personally. I think about 5 have done the jailbreak. I think 1-2% sounds about right.

[Ed Hansberry]

Hmm. I think I know about 30 iPhone users, both personally and not-so-personally. I think about 5 have done the jailbreak. I think 1-2% sounds about right.

I am surprised. The number may well be closer to 10%, not 1%. http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/wordpress/iphone-jailbreak/percentage-of-iphone-jailbreak-users-rising-at-almost-10

I never would have guessed.

[Jason Dunn]

I am surprised. The number may well be closer to 10%, not 1%. http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/wordpress/iphone-jailbreak/percentage-of-iphone-jailbreak-users-rising-at-almost-10 I never would have guessed.

There's no information about how they collected that data; if it's gathered via Web log statistics to certain Apple-focused sites, then what that says is that 10% of the types of people who visit those sites are using jailbroken phones...not 10% of the overall iPhone-using population.

That would be like me saying that based in a survey of Windows Phone Thoughts readers, the average Windows phone out there today has 25 third party apps installed on it. Overall in the market it's probably closer to 2-4 apps.

You know what they say about lies and statistics... :rolleyes: