Log in

View Full Version : Ballmer Takes Shot At Android


Ed Hansberry
03-07-2009, 10:00 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.1800pocketpc.com/2009/03/05/ballmer-confirms-wm7-in-2010-and-ridicules-android.html' target='_blank'>http://www.1800pocketpc.com/2009/03...es-android.html</a><br /><br /></div><p>Ballmer recently gave a talk at the Microsoft Public Sector CIO Summit in Redmond recently and took the time to rib Android just a bit.</p><p><em>"With that said, we did sell more Windows Mobile devices last year than Apple did iPhones - just an important factoid to have. Blackberry was a little bit ahead, and Google was nowhere to be seen, except in Silicon Valley, I'm sure. But we'll do our best to help you with that challenge."</em></p><p>Ballmer should spend less time ribbing the competition and look in his rear view mirror. Android only has one phone right now, but it won't be the last. Already there are <a href="http://marketshare.hitslink.com/mobile-phones.aspx?qprid=55" target="_blank">almost as many people browsing on the web with Android</a> with its small market share as there are with Windows Mobile, which sold over 20 million devices last year. People want browsing and as it gets out that Android has a good browser, just like the iPhone does, people will take a serious look at it.</p><p>I know, IE 6 mobile is on the way, but it isn't here yet, and until it is readily available, it means nothing.</p>

markkcurtis
03-08-2009, 12:49 AM
He should also spend some more time looking up the meaning of words before slinging them around in public...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoid

stuxstu
03-08-2009, 05:04 AM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><p>Ballmer should spend less time ribbing the competition and look in his rear view mirror. Android only has one phone right now, but it won't be the last. Already there are <a href="http://marketshare.hitslink.com/mobile-phones.aspx?qprid=55" target="_blank">almost as many people browsing on the web with Android</a> with its small market share as there are with Windows Mobile, which sold over 20 million devices last year. People want browsing and as it gets out that Android has a good browser, just like the iPhone does, people will take a serious look at it.</p><p>I know, IE 6 mobile is on the way, but it isn't here yet, and until it is readily available, it means nothing.</p>

Actually I think you off a little there. Yes, people who buy the iPhone and Andriod are surfing the net with the phone (mostly consumers). But that does not mean the Windows Mobile users are "internet surfers". I don't surf the net on a phone and have very little use for it. Outside of checking my personal email, I don't care to surf the net on a 3" screen. Internet surfing is a consumer interest and most business users have no use for surfing the web and most business want their employee's to work and not goof off on a phone. The Blackberry and Windows Mobile are for business, that is their main market.

No matter how cool an iPhone is, it virtually useless compared to the blackberry I used to have or WinMo (tilt) that I have now for business.

Though you are right that Microsoft need to catch up on the UI experience.

Rocco Augusto
03-08-2009, 05:53 AM
Internet surfing is a consumer interest and most business users have no use for surfing the web and most business want their employee's to work and not goof off on a phone...

Browsing the Internet has other uses besides goofing off. Windows Mobile customer don't browse the web because they're "business users," but instead because Microsoft offers the worse Internet browsing experience of any other smartphone platform on the market.

The closest self programmed solution Microsoft has to an okay browsing experience on a Windows Mobile device is their new browser which we were told almost a half year ago was going to be using the Internet Explorer 6 HTML rendering engine.

Microsoft has fallen greatly behind in the mobile Internet market and if they offered more up to date solutions then more of those 20 million customers they sold handsets to last year would browse the web. Business users or not.

virain
03-08-2009, 12:09 PM
Browsing the Internet has other uses besides goofing off. Windows Mobile customer don't browse the web because they're "business users," but instead because Microsoft offers the worse Internet browsing experience of any other smartphone platform on the market.

The closest self programmed solution Microsoft has to an okay browsing experience on a Windows Mobile device is their new browser which we were told almost a half year ago was going to be using the Internet Explorer 6 HTML rendering engine.

Microsoft has fallen greatly behind in the mobile Internet market and if they offered more up to date solutions then more of those 20 million customers they sold handsets to last year would browse the web. Business users or not.

There's more to the device than surfing the web. I own Android G1, and to be honest, browsing experience is not all that peachy. Few points, just off my head -
If you open website with a lot of links and lot of text, xda-developers.com for example. It is very difficult, almost impossible to hit the right link on a first try without resizing page a few times and then scrolling all over looking for that link. WM uses stylus, HUGE advantade on 3" screen! there isn't web address box on Google browser. so to put in something like: http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=703893 is pretty much imposible you have to navigate to it from the Google search. And forget about cut and paste from the web page, it is either all or none, no such thing as select text. Some newer web pages that use latest scripting tech , forms, etc are useless as you can't enter text in the text box! Just try Hotmail. I can go on and on..., but it's late already, and I need to get some sleep. As for me personaly... I don't see how Google's browser is better even compare to old Pocket IE. But everyone has his own needs. If I have a choice I pick IE.
Cheers.

Ed Hansberry
03-08-2009, 01:10 PM
I don't surf the net on a phone and have very little use for it. Outside of checking my personal email, I don't care to surf the net on a 3" screen. Internet surfing is a consumer interest and most business users have no use for surfing the web and most business want their employee's to work and not goof off on a phone.
Our business has a ton of need for web browsing. We access customer web sites, bank sites, government sites, the intranet, competitors sites, etc. The web is not just for consumers. There is a TON of business to business done online, at least in the US. That may be different in other countries. I suspect though that other countries have similar business web needs.

Gerard
03-08-2009, 01:27 PM
My sense is that for many current and perhaps also potential WM device users, once Fennec becomes a 'finished' product, Internet use will get a whole lot more tempting via these devices. Firefox isn't just another browser of many; it's created something more like a 'movement' where many users get it to be part of something, then find that it's actually more capable while also being safer than IE. And being free to use, there's no risk, no hindrance to adoption. While the same may also be said of Android, there's still the hardware needing to be bought to get it and also the fact that it's still really wet behind the ears. If Fennec proves to be more than a poor cousin to Firefox, by guess is that it will generate a major shift in consumer attention and probably help make a lot more money for Microsoft incidentally.

And yeah, while my business (I'm a violinmaker/restorer) may not be exactly mainstream, I find the web to be abundantly useful in helping clients in more ways all the time. And the better the service I provide for my clients, the more likely they are to stick with me and keep doing my advertising for me. Both as a direct resource-finder for musicians (who often lack search skills, though less so by the year) and as a research tool for my own side of the work, the Internet's value to my work is becoming essential. And while I do use my netbook to most of that stuff these days, the WM phone's browser comes into it on occasion for quick searches while talking with clients across the workbench.

Stinger
03-08-2009, 02:20 PM
I really don't see how Microsoft can compete against free in the long term. It's been reported that not only is Android license free but Google are offering free support to the likes of Motorola. If you're a manufacturer in a shrinking economy, it's almost a no-brainer to go with Android.

Personally, I haven't been very impressed with what I've seen of Android so far. I wonder about application compatibility between devices with different hardware specs. I wonder when they're going to add the features so obviously missing from the G1. Ultimately, it's the manufacturers and carriers, not the end-users, that Google needs to impress though.

Didn't Ballmer say something very similar about the iPhone before it was released?

Rocco Augusto
03-08-2009, 08:16 PM
If you open website with a lot of links and lot of text, xda-developers.com for example. It is very difficult, almost impossible to hit the right link on a first try without resizing page a few times and then scrolling all over looking for that link. WM uses stylus, HUGE advantade on 3" screen!

Well of course you're going to have problems with those pages, each one you mentioned was optimized for use with the inferior Windows Mobile browser and/or Microsoft products. A handful of sites are in no way an example for the Internet as a whole.

As a web developer, since the release of the iPhone, every project I have taken on one of the requirements have been the additional building of an mobile WebKit version of their site or that the site that was being built was WebKit friendly. Not once in my entire web development career has any company ever asked me to build a site that was Windows Mobile friendly or cellular phone friendly.

virain
03-08-2009, 09:53 PM
Well of course you're going to have problems with those pages, each one you mentioned was optimized for use with the inferior Windows Mobile browser and/or Microsoft products. A handful of sites are in no way an example for the Internet as a whole.

As a web developer, since the release of the iPhone, every project I have taken on one of the requirements have been the additional building of an mobile WebKit version of their site or that the site that was being built was WebKit friendly. Not once in my entire web development career has any company ever asked me to build a site that was Windows Mobile friendly or cellular phone friendly.
BTW, I understand you are the developer for this site as well. So my question is: How come website dedicated to Mobile devices and mobile internet experiences can not be used to full extend on a mobile browser, neither "inferior" PIE nor superior WebKit. I understand that WebKit is something new, but how is it superior to IE? Beats Me. I agree it is different, but superiority? I doubt it.
And one more thing, If Android browser so great, how come Opera Mini is one of the most popular downloads at the Android Market, number 4, last time I've checked?

Ed Hansberry
03-08-2009, 09:58 PM
My sense is that for many current and perhaps also potential WM device users, once Fennec becomes a 'finished' product, Internet use will get a whole lot more tempting via these devices. Firefox isn't just another browser of many; it's created something more like a 'movement' where many users get it to be part of something, then find that it's actually more capable while also being safer than IE. And being free to use, there's no risk, no hindrance to adoption. While the same may also be said of Android, there's still the hardware needing to be bought to get it and also the fact that it's still really wet behind the ears. If Fennec proves to be more than a poor cousin to Firefox, by guess is that it will generate a major shift in consumer attention and probably help make a lot more money for Microsoft incidentally.

Are you talking about a browser or something that will save all of the world's problems?

I think you <i><b>greatly</b></i> overestimate the power of a new flavor of a browser creating a movement among consumers.

Ed Hansberry
03-08-2009, 10:02 PM
I really don't see how Microsoft can compete against free in the long term. It's been reported that not only is Android license free but Google are offering free support to the likes of Motorola. If you're a manufacturer in a shrinking economy, it's almost a no-brainer to go with Android.

The same way they and every other capitalistic company does, by providing a quality product with good service. If MS fails against Android, it won't be because of the price. It will be because of the competitive process where Google bests MS at providing a superior product.

Rocco Augusto
03-08-2009, 11:00 PM
BTW, I understand you are the developer for this site as well. So my question is: How come website dedicated to Mobile devices and mobile internet experiences can not be used to full extend on a mobile browser, neither "inferior" PIE nor superior WebKit.

I am not a developer for this site, I am the Managing Editor for this site. By the time I joined Thoughts Media there was already an individual that handled design, development, and implementation of the different sites and forums.

To my understanding the problems with the mobile sites are being addressed but a lot of the individuals that are involved with Thoughts Media volunteer their time to the sites and are only able to do so much with the available amount of free time they have each day.

And one more thing, If Android browser so great, how come Opera Mini is one of the most popular downloads at the Android Market, number 4, last time I've checked?

Because it was available for free. Downloaded and used are not the same thing. There are plenty of apps I downloaded because I was bored and they were there. After playing with 98% of these applications for a few minutes they eventually get deleted. Opera Mini was one of those apps that fell victim to that. So was Pac-Man which is the number one downloaded game.

virain
03-09-2009, 12:14 AM
Because it was available for free. Downloaded and used are not the same thing. There are plenty of apps I downloaded because I was bored and they were there. After playing with 98% of these applications for a few minutes they eventually get deleted. Opera Mini was one of those apps that fell victim to that. So was Pac-Man which is the number one downloaded game.
Very weak point. Most Apps for Android are free. Google just recently introduced payment services for developers. And I don't understand how's PacMan is a "victim"? It's actualy a winner. I love this game and quiet often enjoy it on a subway, to kill time :). We can only guess what would happened if Android market was a paid service from the start. Maybe Opera was bestseller, maybe not, maybe Pacman was bestseller maybe not.....

virain
03-09-2009, 03:22 AM
The same way they and every other capitalistic company does, by providing a quality product with good service. If MS fails against Android, it won't be because of the price. It will be because of the competitive process where Google bests MS at providing a superior product.
Excellent point!

Rocco Augusto
03-09-2009, 03:36 AM
Very weak point. Most Apps for Android are free...

I don't understand how that is a weak point. Applications are free so users have nothing to use for downloading them and trying them out. Applications created by well known companies such as Opera are downloaded in large numbers. If as many people used Opera as the amount of people that downloaded it the percentage of "other" browsers would be considerably higher than 2.75%

Darius Wey
03-09-2009, 06:00 AM
BTW, I understand you are the developer for this site as well. So my question is: How come website dedicated to Mobile devices and mobile internet experiences can not be used to full extend on a mobile browser, neither "inferior" PIE nor superior WebKit.

I'm not actually sure what you're asking here, but the Thoughts Media sites are optimized for mobile browsers. If you've visited any of the sites in the past fortnight, you will have noticed a complete overhaul of our mobile templates. Readability has been enhanced, and we've enabled a way for users to view the full version of the sites on their mobile browser, if they wish to do so.

More changes are coming - they include improved compatibility with IE6 Mobile and other third-party browsers, a touch-friendly template for the iPhone and iPod touch, and a mobile posting interface.

As Rocco mentioned, the majority of those behind Thoughts Media volunteer their time to the sites, alongside what they put into their day jobs, families, and whatnot. But I assure you, progression is still occurring, even if it may seem a tad slow at times. :)

Deslock
03-09-2009, 10:19 AM
<p>Ballmer should spend less time ribbing the competition and look in his rear view mirror. Android only has one phone right now, but it won't be the last. Already there are <a href="http://marketshare.hitslink.com/mobile-phones.aspx?qprid=55" target="_blank">almost as many people browsing on the web with Android</a> with its small market share as there are with Windows Mobile, which sold over 20 million devices last year.</p>
Of the 20M+ WM devices sold last year, how many were touchscreen and how many were non-touchscreen? (I've asked this at thoughtsmedia before, but so far no one has known the answer)

Ed Hansberry
03-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Very weak point.

I don't think so. Most free apps downloaded from the Apple app store are abandoned after 24 hrs (http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/iphone/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=214502225&subSection=News). Many download just because they can. I suspect that holds true for most/all platforms, not just the iPhone.

virain
03-09-2009, 04:44 PM
I don't understand how that is a weak point. Applications are free so users have nothing to use for downloading them and trying them out. Applications created by well known companies such as Opera are downloaded in large numbers. If as many people used Opera as the amount of people that downloaded it the percentage of "other" browsers would be considerably higher than 2.75%

Itls quiet simple.really! What is the market share of Android compae to Other platforms in the smartphone market? Opera has established its dominant position with Simbian, Become browser of choice for high end WM device OEMs [HTC,Toshiba], So now it's claiming stake in a new platform that is still in its puberty, but with great potential. Other browsers are still in developmet, some stage of public testing, or just recently hit the market, and that's WM market. Remind me for how long WM have been around, and how many WM devices out there? It,s just not practical to develop a new browser for such a small market share while you still didn't finish your Major market version. Just business as usual. And I do agree with you that most apps. are deleted after few hours, maybe days, but do you have numbers on how many are left for use? Particulary Opera? I, personaly, prefer Opera Mini. It is faster, it has address box, and it is easier to use for me personaly. So there's no argument Android users have a choice now. If you like default browser it's your business, you prefer Opera, no argument there either. Both browsers have their own pluses and minuses.

virain
03-09-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm not actually sure what you're asking here, but the Thoughts Media sites are optimized for mobile browsers.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I was refering to ability to post on this website using mobile browser. and while I don't have a problem to do it using "victim" (according to some) Opera Mini, it is quiet imposible to do using "great" WebKit based Google browser. Unexpected, but yet another argument for Opera Mini.

Jason Dunn
03-10-2009, 01:09 AM
BTW, I understand you are the developer for this site as well. So my question is: How come website dedicated to Mobile devices and mobile internet experiences can not be used to full extend on a mobile browser, neither "inferior" PIE nor superior WebKit.

Before we merged the sites to the vBulletin back-end, we had full browsing and posting templates. After the merger, all that work had to be re-done, and we only managed to get the mobile reading templates up fairly quickly. The mobile posting templates never managed to get finished for a variety of reasons, but you may have noticed recently that there are new mobile reading templates - and the new mobile posting template is on the way.

Unfortunately I do not have unlimited developer resources, so things never happen quite as quickly as I hope they will. :)

Rocco Augusto
03-10-2009, 07:24 AM
What is the market share of Android compae to Other platforms in the smartphone market?

Well if we're talking about browser share, Android, with less than 2 million devices on the market as well as only being on the scene for less than half a year, has managed to steal 6% market share for web traffic. That in itself is a HUGE percentage of market share seeing as how Windows Mobile sold close to 20 million handsets and only has a slightly higher percentage than Windows Mobile.

This is why I made such a huge fuss over the summer of last year when Microsoft announced their next mobile browser would be based of IE6. IE6 was a joke on a development end and a user perspective end. As Android has proved with its large percentage of market share for the amount of devices in the wild, people want Internet browsing on their handset and they want as close to a desktop experience as possible. Until Microsoft learns that they will always be close to dead last in the mobile market share space.

Jason Dunn
03-12-2009, 08:16 PM
Of the 20M+ WM devices sold last year, how many were touchscreen and how many were non-touchscreen? (I've asked this at thoughtsmedia before, but so far no one has known the answer)

I asked a Microsoft spokesperson and the answer that was shared with me was:

"We typically don’t share the exact SKU mix but I can tell you generally that the mix is roughly 2/3 Pro (touch) devices and 1/3 Standard (non-touch) devices."

So there ya go. :)