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View Full Version : Is the iPhone Now More Unstable than Windows Mobile?


Rocco Augusto
08-14-2008, 04:00 AM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://mobilitysite.com/2008/08/is-the-iphone-now-more-unstable-than-windows-mobile/' target='_blank'>http://mobilitysite.com/2008/08/is-...windows-mobile/</a><br /><br /></div><p><em>"...Dare I say, Windows Mobile is not Unstable, it&rsquo;s the applications we flood the devices with. Bashing Microsoft for other developer&rsquo;s applications is something that has just become the 'cool thing to do', I guess. Windows Mobile is not perfect, but it&rsquo;s not the beast many want us to believe. Apple has 3rd party applications now. Nice right? Well, iPhone owners are complaining of lockups and having to reset. It could never be Apple&rsquo;s fault though, it&rsquo;s got to be the applications. Bad developers, bad apps, it could never be Apple&rsquo;s fault. So here we are, Apple iPhone locks up&hellip; Bad App. Windows Mobile Phone locks up, Bad Microsoft. Hmmm&hellip; Ok. Let&rsquo;s talk about the iPhone shall we?"</em><br /><br />I had a little internal battle with myself before releasing this. On one hand I am incredibly sick and tired of the constant barrage of articles comparing the iPhone to Windows Mobile. At the end of the day their differences and user experiences are so unique that it is pretty much useless to try and draw comparisons. These devices were designed from the ground up for completely different customer bases mean Windows Mobile will always be superior to the iPhone when it comes to the business side of things and the iPhone will always outshine Windows Mobile when it comes to user interface. <br /><br />Chris from Mobility Site does bring up an interesting point though. With the release of the new iPhone and application store there appears to be larger than average complaints from users about device lockups, hard resets, bricking from other the air application updates, and even the <a href="http://flickr.com/photos/earlysound/2756750007/" target="_blank">camera distorting images</a> - it looks as if Apple's little device that could is starting to experience some big boy growing pains like all the other mobile smartphone operating systems. So what do you guys think, are these all just isolated incidents or are any of you iPhone users experiencing any of these issues?</p>

caywen
08-14-2008, 05:21 AM
I'm a WinMo developer and constant basher of it. I bash it because, well, it sucks in some important ways. The user experience sucks. The performance sucks. The developer experience is so-so. If that sucked, I wouldn't develop for it. I want to love WinMo, but I just can't. The people at Microsoft who truly did their job are the marketers and bizdev folks.

And the base OS developers. One thing I can say about WinMo is that it's actually very solid against crashes and hangs. Though I can write some pretty good code, I also write some pretty awful code. Said code simply results in the application dying, but the OS still alive and kicking. I've had many debugging sessions where I would have unreleased resources, writing into random memory location, stack pointer corruptions, you name it. And I have had so few cases where I even had to soft reboot - it happens from time to time, but only in my most crack-smoking-code situations.

My friends who have the iPhone and have begun downloading apps have all complained that they had to hard reset their device several times. That doesn't sound very solid to me.

I'm still going to write apps for the iPhone, but I have to give Microsoft props on creating a very solid core OS. Now if they can just make the UI and the SDK suck much less, I'll be a huge WinMo fan again.

deanhatescoffee
08-14-2008, 06:02 AM
When I had the Moto Q, I probably reset it (or it reset itself) two to three times a week. With the iPhone 3G, it probably resets itself once a week. So, in my experience, the iPhone OS isn't nearly as buggy as WinMo. The BlackBerry Curve, however, had both of them beat; the Curve was practically invincible. I don't think I needed to reset the Curve once in the three months I had it. Ultimately, what I've found is that the most important thing is the user experience. That doesn't mean what crashes the least; it means what works the best. In that regard, I give my vote to the iPhone.

phoenixag
08-14-2008, 06:42 AM
I have an iPod Touch and it used to be the most stable device/ipod I have ever used.

Come firmware 2.0 and I click the buy button. After that, I have had nothing but trouble. It's unstable, there are times when I had to hard reset it not once, but 4 times consecutively. And its not jailbroken.

I have installed about 10-15 apps on it and it just feels so sluggish. Not like the old 1.1.4 firmware that ran smooth as butter.

If I had this experience on a phone, it would be horrible to use it on a day to day basis.

Anyway, I have been using WM phones since a few years and have seen them progress. WM is very stable out of the box. My mom uses my old WM phone and she doesn't know even 5% of the features, nor uses them. But its the most stable phone she's ever used and she absolutely loves it.

My earlier WM phone had over 80 apps installed and it was very stable. As long as you don't install random junk from strangers, there are little chances of it crashing.

Now I use a Nokia E71 (on the newest Symbian 9.2). It's very stable as well, as stable as my WM phone.

I love the iPod Touch (iPhone) interface. It feels slick and easy to use. It's intuitive and brilliant. But I am sick of people talking about it like its the holy grail or that its super stable.
Whatever it is, surely the word stable does not describe it.

Mikeisme
08-14-2008, 06:54 AM
I have been using PocketPC/Win Mo for years and still have a Q, and do not use it for anything more than texting and typing notes in the built in crappy checklist program. I just got tired of the instability and what I perceive horrible usability.

I got the Touch and it was rock solid stable and I think light years ahead in terms of usability. Now with the 2.0 release I have had several free applications crash and sometimes when launching one it makes my Touch reboot. Still no where as bad as my PPC/WinMO experience.

Rocco Augusto
08-14-2008, 07:25 AM
As far as stability goes, I have only had to hard reset my device once due to a weird system failure, that I was not the cause, in all my years of using the operating system. I have however owned a few problem phones like the Cingular 3125 and the Motorola MPx220 that would suffer due to hardware problems/malfunctions and there has been a few time when installing a 3rd party application kicked my phones face in 8 ways from Sunday. Both of these problems however weren't due to the stability of the operating system but due to the stability of the hardware or the programing of the 3rd party application that caused the error.

Stuff like this happens though when you have programs and hardware developed by 3rd parties. You can't expect every developer to put in the same time and care into testing an application as you would expect Apple or Microsoft to do (key word, expect ;)). I'm sure there would still be problems even if Microsoft took more aggressive control over Windows Mobile and started developing their own devices, but there would hopefully be a lot fewer and more far between.

RF9
08-14-2008, 07:56 AM
The iPhone 3G is my first iPhone. Since day 1 it has been very unstable. Recently I even did a full restore and only installed a few apps. The instability I experience appears to have nothing to do with the 3rd party apps.
I can reset the device, use it, never once launch a 3rd party app, and still have instability.

Only once every few days does the iPhone spontaneously reset. Most of the time it's just the web browser crashing on me, and it crashes very frequently (at least once every 5 minutes of use.) I almost threw it against the wall the other day when I was posting to a forum and the browser just closed (crashed) and lost all of my text entry. It did that 4 times that evening. I swear I give up trying to do forum posts from it, I'm always afraid it's going to crash on me at the wrong time.

So I've taken to forcing a reset every morning when I pull it off the charger. Usually at once sometime through the day. Any time I expect to use it for more than 5 minutes at a time, I'll reset it. Resetting it seems to make it more stable for the subsequent session.

I haven't had to do this kind of reset management since the Treo 600!

I have never experienced this kind of instability with WM (3 devices over 3 years of WM5/6.) In fact the Treo 750 could go for weeks without a reset.

I never understood what people talked about when they said that WM is buggy and/or unstable. Maybe coming from the rather unstable PalmOS, WM felt extremely stable.
Heck, even the blackberry crashed and rebooted (as rarely) as it ever happened to me on WM. (I had a BB for work for a year in a half in addition to my personal WM devices.)

I really HOPE Apple gets a handle on these stability problems. Now that WebKit seems to be coming to WM pretty soon, I'll have a hard time justifying any reason to stick with PalmOS.
I still have my Tilt and Treo 750, so it's no big deal to just put away the iPhone and go back.

surur
08-14-2008, 10:18 AM
A poll at macrumors say 1/3 of iPhones need to be rebooted at least daily (http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=654).

That makes me laugh, because Jobs was all about preventing this from happening (and he obviously failed miserably). I wish I could find his quote about not bringing down the west coast cellphone network.

Surur

Darius Wey
08-14-2008, 10:43 AM
Come firmware 2.0 and I click the buy button. After that, I have had nothing but trouble. It's unstable, there are times when I had to hard reset it not once, but 4 times consecutively. And its not jailbroken.

The 2.0.1 update fixed some, but not all issues. I still recommend updating to that, if you haven't already.

Back to the original question, I don't think it can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no" answer. It only takes one poorly-written and poorly-tested app to wreak havoc. The WM device I'm using now can't stop grinding to a halt, thanks to a handful of apps bundled with the device. It needs a couple of soft resets just to make it through the day.

phoenixag
08-14-2008, 11:17 AM
Uhm, when I said 2.0, I meant 2.01 :) I actually never wanted to buy the 2.0 upgrade, as I heard lots of reports about its instability. 2.01 was reported to have fixed a lot of the problems, but apparently for me, it still feels slower/sluggish if not outrightly crashing.

The only time WM has ever crashed on me is when I was using a custom rom.

Otherwise, its uptime is great. And I install a lot of stuff, with my today screen filled with spb diary, batterystatus, spb pocket plus, etc.

Stinger
08-14-2008, 11:29 AM
I find it funny that the officially sanctioned apps are causing all these problems but the unofficial apps on my jailbroken touch work just fine. :)

bacchus_3
08-14-2008, 11:32 AM
I would have to agree that Apple made a mistake here. Probably with making sure the quality of firmware 2.0 is as solid as 1.x firmwares. I stopped using WinMo over 2 years ago at WinMo 5 - the experience when I don't restart my phone daily, agonizingly SLOW! I do experience OS reboot in the iPhone but that is due to AppStore purchases and app updates. I've read a couple of findings off the web (e.g. iPhone Dev, et al) that there is a problem with Apple's software distribution system that is causing this.

The one good thing I can think of is Apple can fix this as soon as they can figure it out - hopefully, a real fix to these bugs by firmware 2.0 and 2.0.1.

Dyvim
08-14-2008, 02:24 PM
I have the 2.0.1 firmware running on an original iPhone. It's definitely slower and has weird lag issues compared to the almost rock solid 1.1.4 firmware (which took several months for Apple to arrive at). I've had some App Store apps lock up on me, but Apple fortunately includes a way to "end task" on hung apps (hold down the Home button for several seconds) and that almost always does the trick. While I have had to soft reset a couple times, it wasn't from 3rd party apps but rather using the built-in apps. I've not had to hard reset. The bright side of this is that I fully expect Apple to release progressively better firmware versions over the next several months that will address the stability issues (as they did with v1 firmware). Apple's firmware update system simply blows the WinMo experience away- first just by having it in the first place, second by making it a seamless user experience (you don't lose a single setting- not even your browser history). I've done multiple firmware updates on my iPhone (and my wife's as well): something like 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3, 1.1.4, 2.0 pre-release (for iPhone 3G- oops!), 2.0, and 2.0.1 and retained all my settings and info every time.

For me the push work email through Exchange and the push Calendar and Contacts via MobileMe (the email sucks for me but it's keeping my Contacts and Calendars in sync for me between a PC, a Mac, and 2 iPhones) of my desktop (non-Exchange) Outlook PIM info is worth the lag. I'm also digging the App Store. Nothing really earth-shattering but I've got several apps that I enjoy playing around with.

My Toshiba e830 was very stable (as was my e800), but then again it was WM 2003 and not a phone. My eTen M500, M600, and HTC Advantage x7501 phones all have been horribly unstable, rendering them useless as phones for all practical purposes. The Advantage is by far the worst of the lot- it is unstable out of the box with no 3rd party apps (other than what HTC builds into the ROM). Now that was an $850 disappointment of the highest order. (And people think the iPhone is overpriced!)

subzerohf
08-14-2008, 02:28 PM
The iPhone is definitely going through some teething pain, just like WinMo did a few years back. The major difference between the two is the update mechanism. In less than one month since the release of 2.0, firmware 2.0.1 is released and distributed to most iPhone users. With Apple, there is hope (for the next update). With WinMo, you are stuck - better luck with your next purchase, man!

acharn
08-14-2008, 03:25 PM
I made the jump to the iPhone the day 3G was released and haven't looked back. As far as WM being for business and iPhone for consumer, I disagree. I use the iPhone for my business. I don't use exchange, but Gmail IMAP works well. I also sync my calendar wirelessly using Nuevasync. All of this is free.
As far as it locking up, yes, it does, occasionally. But, not any more than my Blackjack.
The iPhone, as you know, is a completely different user experience than WM. The thing I appreciate the most is that I don't have to install a bunch of 3rd party apps to make the device usable for what I need. It just works, and the user experience is just delightful on the iPhone. Prior to this, I was a WM guy for 5 years, and people would ooh and aah over what I could do with it compared to a simple cell phone. All it took for me, though, was to experience the Safari browser and multitouch interface and I was hooked.

alcedes78
08-14-2008, 05:24 PM
When it comes to the stability of Windows Mobile it is difficult if not impossible to speak about the stability of Windows Mobile as a whole. As some have pointed out in other iPhone vs. Windows Mobile comparisons, you are essentially comparing a phone with only two hardware configurations (for now let's ignore the memory capacity) against a class of phones with dozens of variations.

Each one of those Windows Mobile Phones may provide a different experience than the others and may have different levels of stability. When an unstable one is found then whose fault is it? Is it the OEM's fault for using an unstable driver? Is the instability the cause of something in code that Microsoft wrote? When a crash occurs in a Windows Mobile phone it is hard to say that the fault is defenitivly owned by Microsoft, the OEM, or other third party without knowing why the crash occured.

I am inclined to think that a problem that occurs across all Windows Mobile Phones that have the same AKU is from faults owned by Microsoft and problems that occur on a specific phone model are from faults owned by the OEM.

txa1265
08-14-2008, 05:33 PM
Let us all remember that while the iPhone platform is just over 1 year old, Windows CE is more than *12* years old ... and the overwhelming majority of that time has been spent mired with loads of basic problems, many of which it has failed to shake.

That said, I noticed instantly that my battery life using WiFi dropped drastically when I upgraded my iPod Touch to 2.0.

Rocco Augusto
08-14-2008, 06:24 PM
With WinMo, you are stuck - better luck with your next purchase, man!

Windows Mobile phones can be updated and when there are problems most carriers are good about releasing updates for the device (e.g. Cingular 2125 radio problem)

Dyvim
08-14-2008, 07:00 PM
when there are problems most carriers are good about releasing updates for the device
That's a joke, right? Good one!

Ok, snarky comment aside, while I concede that if there is a specific concrete known and fixable issue, then carriers may choose to rollout updates, when have they ever rolled out updates because the device in general is slow and buggy?

Also, I never bought a carrier-branded WM phone, I always bought unlocked devices. Where would I look to for updates then? The OEM? Microsoft? (Ok, eTen was pretty good about ROM upgrades although the upgrade process was painful - hard reset every time.)

Although my iPhone is locked to AT&T, I don't look to AT&T for updates, I know to look to Apple for them, and so far they have been providing regular updates even though my device model is over a year old.

acharn
08-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Although my iPhone is locked to AT&T, I don't look to AT&T for updates, I know to look to Apple for them, and so far they have been providing regular updates even though my device model is over a year old.

Exactly. I have had my first upgrade from Apple in less than a month. For WM it is up to the carrier. How many days of bickering and complaining about the lack of the "official release" of WM 6.x do I have to endure on the AT&T forum? Heck, I'd even PAY apple as long as they keep the updates rolling, on schedule.

You are not going to get the kind of customer service for any WM products due to their lack of a single source for updates. It's like trying to govern the independent states of the former Soviet Republic!

Apple, keep giving me updates, keep offering me cool applications which AMAZE and DAZZLE me every time I open a new one, and I will stay loyal to you.

WM, Microsoft-- if you are still trying to convince us that the 4-color game Simon is the rage, then you need to watch Close Encounters of the Third Kind again. The real innovations took place in the space ship after they took off. Apple is currently delivering on that.

Rocco Augusto
08-14-2008, 09:44 PM
I think everyone will agree that the upgrade model for Windows Mobile can stand to use a lot of work and all I was trying to do was acknowledge the fact that their is one present. It is not as seemless as Apple's method and it does not occur as often but every single Windows Mobile device I have ever own has had at least one ROM upgrade made available for it during the time I have owned it.

Apple has upped the bar with every single other phone manufacturer and operating system maker because now customers are going to expect OS upgrades as the norm and that is fantastic. There is a downfall to that now and that is a situation that we have here with Apple. You release an update and it doesn't fix all the problems or creates new ones and everyone is up in arms.

In a perfect world we would have a mix of both. Regular software updates that given time to be tested vigorously instead of getting them out the door as quickly as possible.

rzanology
08-14-2008, 11:48 PM
i was never one to feel like microsoft should be held accountable for the apps on any of their platforms. They've developed a platform, set forth tools...everything else should be up to the developers to deliver the goods.

with that being said....even with all these 3rd party apps for winmobile, never once did i have an app just completely shut my device down. and i've been using winmobile for years now. i can't say the same for the iphone.

+1 for microsoft.

now...lets lend apple a hand here...lets say they went above and beyond to make sure that the developers are doing their job correctly. so they police the apps available and tighting up things on the sdk. AND YET!!!....these apps are bringing its platform to a knee....hmmmmmmm. that doesn't happen in a "sloppy" winmo environment.

+1 for microsoft.

so you pitch to me the BS about apple porting the mac os10 kernal to the iphone...well....did they forget to port the fine "security" they're always talking about? they can't seem to stop people from jail breaking and unlocking the phone....futher more get approved software to run. YIKES!

+1 for microsoft


it amazes me how know one is willing to speak on how unsecure the iphone is. If microsoft opened a "back door" on our phone...it would be hell to pay. they'd be the devil. but apple does it...and thats okay. riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


do i feel the iphone platform is unstable?? YES! but not for long. apple will sort it out very soon. i think the reason microsoft sits around on their hands all say is because they can afford too. well not any more. when apple turns this around...it will force microsoft to be much more forth coming with updates and such for the next platform. and i'm really looking forward to the windows mobile 7 platform. i think a lot of the "wrongs" that never really were wrong....will be righted. stay tuned folks.

Macguy59
08-15-2008, 01:02 AM
I've only downloaded 6 apps so far (kept 4 of them) with no issues using them on my 3G. No lockups or resets needed so far. My only issue is with battery life. With 3G, WiFi and Push off the battery still drains faster than my 2G did. However, my 2G became very unstable and sluggish when updated with 2.0

Janak Parekh
08-15-2008, 01:59 AM
I think everyone will agree that the upgrade model for Windows Mobile can stand to use a lot of work and all I was trying to do was acknowledge the fact that their is one present. It is not as seemless as Apple's method and it does not occur as often but every single Windows Mobile device I have ever own has had at least one ROM upgrade made available for it during the time I have owned it. ... and therein lies the problem. One upgrade is made available, at most, and that's it. The process is also not particularly easy. On the iPhone, even with a major upgrade, I docked my unit, it told me there was a new update, I hit a button, it upgraded, rebooted, and no reprogramming all the application settings! You can't do that with WM. Heck, when I got the iPhone 3G, I docked it, told it to restore my old iPhone's data, and that was it. I was late to a lunch appointment thanks to the damn Apple Store line, but I just let the 3G upgrade while I got ready, and grabbed it and went.

Sorry, Rocco, Microsoft's upgrade model is completely broken, and is consumer-unfriendly. Power users can live with it, maybe, except for the frequency and obscurity of updates. AKUs are a particular pain point: they were a HUGE step backwards from EUUs, which was the same for all devices, so I have yet to be convinced WM's taking a step forward.

This is why Apple gets a lot more leeway, for now: consumers have faith Apple's going to release a update and their phone will work with it. That said, if the stability doesn't continue to improve, you'll hear more complaints. ;) My experience with 2.0.1 is that it's less stable than 1.1.4, which was like a rock, so I'll be looking forward to more upgrades. But it's already a step forward since 2.0.

Comparing to WM is difficult. The iPhone's instability is in different areas. I'd say both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages.

--janak

ucfgrad93
08-15-2008, 02:14 AM
My iPhone is using the 2.0.1 firmware and so far is rock solid. I have only downloaded 5 applications, so I'm definitely not a power user. I have never used a WinMob phone, so I can't really compare the two.

whydidnt
08-15-2008, 04:19 AM
Great points made by several earlier commenters.

I think it's fair to say that Apple is finding that adding 3rd party apps to any device can lead to stability problems. My concern is that Apple is supposedly testing and approving all apps before releasing them. The apps ALL run on the same OS, at the same resolution and on the same hardware. What do they actually test? It's disappointing that Apple has been less than truthful about the approval process, which has little to do with making sure the app is stable, and everything to do with Apple controlling what you can and can't do with your device. It's also odd that there seems to be memory issues despite the fact Apple won't allow apps to run in the background.

My upgraded iPod Touch is not as stable since it was upgraded but I use it about 5x more frequently because there are now applications that I want, so the trade off is worth it to me (much like using WM despite some stability issues was worth it compared to Blackberry, Palm, etc.) The stability issues seem different than what I have experienced with WM as well. I have only had to force a soft reset once since upgrading, shortly after 2.0 became available, and haven't experienced any hard resets. However, I have had times where some of my installed apps have refused to run, they'd launch and then close. I also find Safari less stable. If I have many tabs open, or open sites with lots of data or tables, Safari often crashes and closes. When I have issues with WM it seems like the entire device gets slow or unresponsive, almost always resulting in need for a soft-reset.

From my perspective, I have much more faith that Apple will release updates to fix the stability issue than I do that HP will release updates to fix the stability and battery issues with my iPaq 910, and the fact that I can update the OS without having to reinstall everything, find and type in a myriad of registration keys, product activation hassles, etc makes the Apple experience miles ahead of anything HP or Microsoft will deliver with their current archetecture.

rlieving
08-15-2008, 04:28 AM
When Steve Jobs gave the keynote address at Apple and announce ActiveSync, I said, "That's what I want. Nothing holding me back now."

That is, until I test drove the new iPhone. I work in downtown Chicago - my WinMo device is an aging PPC-6700. We did a little Safari vs. PIE test to see which phone would load Google Reader faster. After typing, and retyping, and retyping the URL into the iPhone (Steve Jobs assures me I'll 'get it' after a little time with the phone), we tried the test.

Guess what? AT&T couldn't delive a decent signal. The PPC-6700 sailed right through.

After that, it was time to take a hard look. The problem with WinMo is it is horrible to look at and the total cost of fixing the OS is so daunting, I try to steer everyone away from it. Heck, after 5 years with a WinMo device, I STILL don't understand the memory scheme. (Why are there 2 memories again?) Out of the box, WinMo looks as bad as a Blackberry and Palm, with ugly UI, ugly calendars, ugly contacts.

So, the user is forced to buy software right out of the box.

Then, you have to configure the thing so it is usable. Turn off the click noises on the screen. Disable bluetooth so the battery lasts 8 hours. Etc. etc. By the time you are done, if you don't write it down (I keep a 50 point list), you can't get the 'old' configuration back if you (or it) hard resets.

I just find the whole thing so frustrating.

And the battery life it HORRIBLE!!! Especially when compared to Palms or Blackberries.

However, AT&T's tepid 3G signal is no match for Sprint. I cannot go with a company that doesn't have a signal inside the Chicago loop. It won't happen. An iPhone is worthless without a connection.

So - iPhone doesn't win. But I am very wary of buying another WinMo phone. If I can find software on another OS that can sync with Outlook OR Google - I am gone. MSFT lost me on this one.

Pete Paxton
08-15-2008, 05:10 AM
I have the iPhone 2G with 2.0.1 and so far it's been great. No lock ups of any kind. I definitely miss a good office suite but I think that's coming. Otherwise, it's everything my Dash was and more.

Janak Parekh
08-15-2008, 04:53 PM
I think it's fair to say that Apple is finding that adding 3rd party apps to any device can lead to stability problems. My concern is that Apple is supposedly testing and approving all apps before releasing them. The apps ALL run on the same OS, at the same resolution and on the same hardware. What do they actually test? It's disappointing that Apple has been less than truthful about the approval process, which has little to do with making sure the app is stable, and everything to do with Apple controlling what you can and can't do with your device. To be honest, I don't think they even do that. I really have no idea what they test, since they even released that tethering app on the App Store. :confused:

I will say that having a central repository for apps, despite its limitations, is pretty amazing.

--janak

Janak Parekh
08-15-2008, 04:54 PM
Guess what? AT&T couldn't delive a decent signal. The PPC-6700 sailed right through. Sounds like an excellent reason not to get the iPhone now. However, this will likely change as AT&T builds out their 3G network. It's pretty good in NYC now. Without a doubt, WM's carrier openness, while making it difficult to update, is really consumer-friendly in the perspective of carrier choice.

--janak

MattMojo
08-15-2008, 06:39 PM
I have used WM for years; from Dell axims to WM phones. The only phone I had an issue with being unstable was the Verizon xv6700 --- that thing was horrible. I have since moved to the Samsung I-760 and absolutely love this phone --- very stable; only have to soft-reset once a month --- if that.

The usual suspect for stability problems has been 3rd party apps --- except for the crappy 6700.

mojo

whydidnt
08-15-2008, 07:14 PM
The usual suspect for stability problems has been 3rd party apps

mojo

Which would seem to be the issue on the iPhone as well...Except Apple doesn't allow third party apps to run in the background. Seems odd that they would be the cause of system instability when they can only run one at a time, and are supposedly "vetted" before being available. Of course, we now are learning the vetting process really isn't happening, at least not in the way Steve Jobs indicated it would. I'm fine with that, but then tear down the artificial wall around the app store and just accept all submitted applications.

khoss
08-15-2008, 08:19 PM
I've used WM since it's inception and own an iPhone 3G. WM is software and Microsoft is a software company. iPhone is hardware and Apple is essentially a hardware company. You can't really compare. WM is suffering from being built on an old system that addressed the available hardware of the day. It is rediculous in this day and age to have only 128 MB of memory. The basic trouble is that WM is essentially open and the manufacturers of the devices it runs on either haven't figured how to build a modern device or are hampered by an OS that was meant to address past dinosaurs. I am hoping that Apple has forced MS to update WM so it can run on modern devices and that the manufacturers step it up. Yes, a closed system is almost always a more pleasant experience for the non-technical user but even some of us hackers get old and tired of the sport. I love my Treo 750, most stable WM device I ever used, but let's face it for my old eyes the iPhone really ups the bar. In answer to the original point: The 3G reception has been identical between my Treo and the iPhone. Take that with a grain of salt becuase I'm in the middle of NYC. The Treo required more reboots because of the anemic hardware, the iPhone reboots have been a matter of apparent instability (Safari or one of the other built in apps suddenly just closing). So .. you have a point. In terms of usability, though, the iPhone needs less maintenance day to day and I'm finding I get things done faster. I believe WM is very solid but has been overextended: it needs an update of great proportion to run on the hardware that's POSSIBLE to run today.

angler
08-16-2008, 06:19 AM
Microsoft only creates WM for different OEM such as HTC, HP, Samsung, Toshiba .... to launch pocket pc running WM os. While Apple directly creates its iphone with its latest os 2.01. WM device greatly depends on what the OEM makes the os for its device, but iphone is directly controlled by what Apple has made. There is a totally different performance of WM6 running in LG device than Palm Treo where the latter is famous in the stable performance inspite of installing any 3rd party software.

onlydarksets
08-16-2008, 02:42 PM
WM is suffering from being built on an old system that addressed the available hardware of the day. It is rediculous in this day and age to have only 128 MB of memory.
The iPhone has only 128MB (http://furbo.org/2007/08/21/what-the-iphone-specs-dont-tell-you/) of RAM. 3G appears to have the same (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6019344).

khoss
08-17-2008, 03:50 AM
The iPhone has only 128MB (http://furbo.org/2007/08/21/what-the-iphone-specs-dont-tell-you/) of RAM. 3G appears to have the same (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=6019344).


I hashed that, my bad. They both have around 128 MB of RAM (seems to be the best guess) but with WM the OS is pretty much limited to the 64-28 MB that is usually devoted to ROM and virtual space is also more limited while the iPhone's OS uses up a comforatable 700MB or so with considerably more virtual space (although just how much I haven't found out - they keep pretty close to the vest). At the end of the day ,used identically, the iPhones lasts longer before it's resources are swamped and after a dozen years it's frustrating that WM has not moved much beyond it's original specs or performance.

MattMojo
08-18-2008, 02:21 AM
I hashed that, my bad. They both have around 128 MB of RAM (seems to be the best guess) but with WM the OS is pretty much limited to the 64-28 MB that is usually devoted to ROM and virtual space is also more limited while the iPhone's OS uses up a comforatable 700MB or so with considerably more virtual space (although just how much I haven't found out - they keep pretty close to the vest). At the end of the day ,used identically, the iPhones lasts longer before it's resources are swamped and after a dozen years it's frustrating that WM has not moved much beyond it's original specs or performance.

I'm not exactly sure as to what you are referring about and I may be wrong as well --- but MS did make a radical change in their OS when moving from 2003SE to 5.0. Remember that the OS was stored and run all on RAM and the ROM was used to store a hard-reset image. Available storage space was allocated RAM and SD/CF cards. All that changed with 5.0 when RAM was used for executing programs/OS only --- ROM was freed for general storage and that lead way for no more battery drain worries. Also I was able to dump much more memory in my old (pre WM 5 &6) Axims than what was in there by default --- there where plenty of services available to do so.

I enjoy the fact the MS has made an incredibly powerful OS that remains quite small and mostly bloat free. And most programs (3rd party or not) do not need much space either. I have not investigated the iPhone storage requirements so I can not comment on it or other mobile OS requirements.


Mojo

khoss
08-18-2008, 05:29 AM
I'm not exactly sure as to what you are referring about and I may be wrong as well --- but MS did make a radical change in their OS when moving from 2003SE to 5.0. Remember that the OS was stored and run all on RAM and the ROM was used to store a hard-reset image. Available storage space was allocated RAM and SD/CF cards. All that changed with 5.0 when RAM was used for executing programs/OS only --- ROM was freed for general storage and that lead way for no more battery drain worries. Also I was able to dump much more memory in my old (pre WM 5 &6) Axims than what was in there by default --- there where plenty of services available to do so.

I enjoy the fact the MS has made an incredibly powerful OS that remains quite small and mostly bloat free. And most programs (3rd party or not) do not need much space either. I have not investigated the iPhone storage requirements so I can not comment on it or other mobile OS requirements.


Mojo

That is really just house keeping. Yes, it's nice to know that you don't lose your data from a drained battery but the limitation of the OS are still there OR maybe the hardware manufacturers are limiting it - I don't know but I'd guess that the limitation is in WM. I guess I disagree with it being a powerful OS. Some of the programs for it are pretty neat but given the number of times it needs to be rebooted something is wrong. I started with the Journada the day it was released and a dozen years later the today screen, programs, setting etc look the same as they did then with not much more capability. Don't get me wrong - I like WM but I'd like to see some decent hardware around it and I suspect it's the OS that prevents that. I could be wrong.

Cybrid
08-18-2008, 08:14 AM
Yes, it's nice to know that you don't lose your data from a drained battery but the limitation of the OS are still there OR maybe the hardware manufacturers are limiting it - I don't know but I'd guess that the limitation is in WM. I could be wrong. Yes, I do believe you are wrong :D
My HTC Touch is 128 Mb RAM, 256 Mb ROM and carries a 8Gb MicroSD card.

On some websites it performs better and faster than safari. Either with PIE or Opera and on some it does not.Whatever, that isn't the point.

This one exceeds it hardwarewise: http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=49524

The real limiting factor is really the consumer.

MS strategy "Only a Corporate Shill would pay $xxx ....for xxxxx features" They are Wrong.

Apple strategy " If we add a huge storage capacity and a few simple to use features. Make a device even an idiot can operate.. and every idiot will buy it. They are right. I bought one too.

khoss
08-18-2008, 01:23 PM
Yes, I do believe you are wrong :D
My HTC Touch is 128 Mb RAM, 256 Mb ROM and carries a 8Gb MicroSD card.

On some websites it performs better and faster than safari. Either with PIE or Opera and on some it does not.Whatever, that isn't the point.

This one exceeds it hardwarewise: http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=49524

The real limiting factor is really the consumer.

MS strategy "Only a Corporate Shill would pay $xxx ....for xxxxx features" They are Wrong.

Apple strategy " If we add a huge storage capacity and a few simple to use features. Make a device even an idiot can operate.. and every idiot will buy it. They are right. I bought one too.

I guess something snapped; it's 2008 and my experience with the Treo 750 running WinMo 6 was exactly the same as when I used the Journada (although I admit way better than being tethered to a Star-Tac :-)). Come to think of it I almost never had to reboot the Journada.
I am one of the iDiots that bought into the iPhone but I see the kids are pretty resistant. They seem to like WM but hate touch screens. I'm seeing the Blackjack and then the BB Curve as the sellers to the younger set. Be interesting to see what happens when this generation votes with their wallet ...

Torque
08-18-2008, 09:22 PM
I haven't used the iPhone so I can't comment on it's usability, interface, or it's stability directly. I can say that the out of the three Windows mobile devices I've owned and used, two were pocket PC's that never had to be hard reset or soft reset despite numerous application installs and uninstalls. The Refurbished Blackjack I've been using for over a year has only recently developed problems that weren't related to the WM OS. It's hardware related. It doesn't crash or require soft or hard resets. Since Apple has only one phone and they control the hardware and software, that can't really be compared to the dozens of devices and OEMs producing WM Smartphones, none of whom even operate the same way despite the common OS. Apple will fix the problems with the iPhone and Microsoft had better develop a better user interface and user experience with Windows Mobile 7 next year when my 2 year phone upgrade is due, or they will lose me to "another mobile OS vendor" if I can get a better user experience, WiFi/Bluetooth, replaceable battery, and a built in keyboard (not saying no vendor names... LOL)

alese
08-18-2008, 11:03 PM
I have only used iPhone a few times for couple of minutes, so I can't really compare the two systems, the one thing I can say is that iPhone's UI is incredible compared to WM even the new Touch Diamond while nice can't compare.
So I guess iPhone is nicer and it's browser is much better than PIE, although with new Opera Mobile and new VGA devices WM is better for browsing.

As for stability, I can't say much about iPhone, but saying that WM as system is unstable out of the box is simply not true. It can be that some devices have HW problems that make them unstable - I know my iPaq 3870 was such a device, that managed to hard reset on me few times without any reason. But out of 7 Pocket PC/WM devices that I used since 2000 none of them needed daily resets even after I have loaded all my programs - I use quite a few 3rd party apps and I usually do quite a lot of customizations on my devices. Sure I have to reset here and there, but once every few days is not much of a problem and not much different than most "non dumb" phones out there regardless the OS.

Oh and my HTC Advantage (X7500) is running just great with custom 6.1 ROM, no resets at all, great browsing, incredible little MID...

khoss
08-19-2008, 09:55 PM
I have only used iPhone a few times for couple of minutes, so I can't really compare the two systems, the one thing I can say is that iPhone's UI is incredible compared to WM even the new Touch Diamond while nice can't compare.
So I guess iPhone is nicer and it's browser is much better than PIE, although with new Opera Mobile and new VGA devices WM is better for browsing.

As for stability, I can't say much about iPhone, but saying that WM as system is unstable out of the box is simply not true. It can be that some devices have HW problems that make them unstable - I know my iPaq 3870 was such a device, that managed to hard reset on me few times without any reason. But out of 7 Pocket PC/WM devices that I used since 2000 none of them needed daily resets even after I have loaded all my programs - I use quite a few 3rd party apps and I usually do quite a lot of customizations on my devices. Sure I have to reset here and there, but once every few days is not much of a problem and not much different than most "non dumb" phones out there regardless the OS.

Oh and my HTC Advantage (X7500) is running just great with custom 6.1 ROM, no resets at all, great browsing, incredible little MID...
I don't know how you do it. So far I didn't see anybody say that WM is unstable out of the box. What I said was that WM would run out of resources and need a reboot while the iPhone 3G would need a reboot do to instability. Quite the opposite. But .. WM needs far more reboots. An hour on the web and the resources are usually down to about 3 MB. I can use an iPhone all day like that. Of course these are heavy graphics but still .. Having to track the memory and decide if you need to reboot before you start a task lest it freeze on you (like making a purchase) is a pain. I have never had a WM device that didn't need at least one reboot a day. Yes, I use them quite a bit but the only people I ever saw who didn't need to do this were pretty light users (phone calls and occassional non-communication apps). How you've manged is beyond me :-(
Regards,
Kurt

alese
08-20-2008, 06:36 PM
I don't know how you do it. So far I didn't see anybody say that WM is unstable out of the box. What I said was that WM would run out of resources and need a reboot while the iPhone 3G would need a reboot do to instability. Quite the opposite. But .. WM needs far more reboots. An hour on the web and the resources are usually down to about 3 MB. I can use an iPhone all day like that. Of course these are heavy graphics but still .. Having to track the memory and decide if you need to reboot before you start a task lest it freeze on you (like making a purchase) is a pain. I have never had a WM device that didn't need at least one reboot a day. Yes, I use them quite a bit but the only people I ever saw who didn't need to do this were pretty light users (phone calls and occassional non-communication apps). How you've manged is beyond me :-(
Regards,
Kurt

Well some people were complaining of resetting their device daily without anything installed...
As for resources - I have HTC Trinity (P3600) phone that has 64Mb RAM and true it's a pain to use with new Opera Mobile Beta or with iGO navigation, because it tends to run out of memory. But I don't use any of them all daily (browsing sucks on qVGA and I know how to get to work and home without GPS navigation - I tend to use Advantage for browsing and multimedia stuff) - so when I use this applications I usually end up doing reset - but normally during the day I use my device for mail (exchange sync), outlook (pocket informant), notes (PhatPad), reference (List Pro, EWallet), maybe reading some things on the go... I never run out of resources and I use it a lot (20% or less battery at the end of the day) with bluetooth and 3G always on.

whydidnt
08-20-2008, 09:25 PM
As for resources - I have HTC Trinity (P3600) phone that has 64Mb RAM and true it's a pain to use with new Opera Mobile Beta or with iGO navigation, because it tends to run out of memory. But I don't use any of them all daily (browsing sucks on qVGA and I know how to get to work and home without GPS navigation - I tend to use Advantage for browsing and multimedia stuff) - so when I use this applications I usually end up doing reset - but normally during the day I use my device for mail (exchange sync), outlook (pocket informant), notes (PhatPad), reference (List Pro, EWallet), maybe reading some things on the go... I never run out of resources and I use it a lot (20% or less battery at the end of the day) with bluetooth and 3G always on.

But isn't disappointing that 10 years after release, you still can't use a device built on the WM OS without having to worry about running applications such as this and having to reset? To me the hardware/software should have resolved past this point. It SHOULD be mature and stable, but really isn't.

Cybrid
08-21-2008, 07:15 PM
Stability? iPod Touch? Nope. I've had spontaneous Safari closures. All sorts of other wierdness.

Instability? HTC Touch... Like a rock! Of course it helps that I have 66% of 128Mb RAM free.

Here's whats happening. 64Mb RAM devices are under resourced = instability.

128Mb Devices run much better. Is that suprising?

Now a device with 128Mb RAM, 32Gb of storage should run just as well? or better? I seem to remember an earlier post re: 700Mb a OS cache.
D'you think that would cure most instability? Stares intently at Khoss :)
Yet in reality. I managed to get BlackSOD's, where the app closed and home screen didn't load.

Edited to clarify.

Torque
09-01-2008, 05:02 PM
But isn't disappointing that 10 years after release, you still can't use a device built on the WM OS without having to worry about running applications such as this and having to reset? To me the hardware/software should have resolved past this point. It SHOULD be mature and stable, but really isn't.

One thing I love about my Blackjack is that I actually have to remember to go into task manager to shut down the multiple programs I've opened that are all running in the background since Windows Mobile doesn't really shut anything down. I've never had to reboot or reset because of multi-tasking. Can the iPhone do that?