Do we Really Need a Zune Phone? [Archive]

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Rocco Augusto

07-30-2008, 10:22 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://kara.allthingsd.com/20080723/microsoft-ceo-steve-ballmers-full-memo-to-the-troops-about-new-reorg/' target='_blank'>http://kara.allthingsd.com/20080723...bout-new-reorg/</a> </div><img src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/600/zt/auto/1217452701.usr8.jpg" border="0" /> [What do you think? Is this what we really need? (Artist Concept)]There is a bit speculation going around the Interweb as of late that Microsoft is hard at work on a Zune based phone, or ZunePhone if you want to call it what all the cool kids are calling it. In a recent <a href="http://kara.allthingsd.com/20080723/microsoft-ceo-steve-ballmers-full-memo-to-the-troops-about-new-reorg/" target="_blank">memo</a> making the rounds at Microsoft, Steve Ballmer is quoted as saying the following: "In the competition between PCs and Macs, we outsell Apple 30-to-1. But there is no doubt that Apple is thriving. Why? Because they are good at providing an experience that is narrow but complete, while our commitment to choice often comes with some compromises to the end-to-end experience. Today, we’re changing the way we work with hardware vendors to ensure that we can provide complete experiences with absolutely no compromises. We’ll do the same with phones—providing choice as we work to create great end-to-end experiences."After reading this memo I did what any fan of technology would do - I ran to my nearest window to get a glimpse of the pigs flying because Microsoft is finally starting to take an Apple-like approach to things by taking more control with hardware vendors to provide a "complete experiences with absolutely no compromises" for their end user. While I applaud Microsoft for taking that first step in hopefully stopping the hardware vendors from providing us with sub-par systems cluttered with excessive junk that we will never need or use on both the Desktop and mobile arena, you have to stop and ask yourself two questions:<ol><li>Why the heck has it taken so long for Microsoft to step in to ensure a better user experience?</li><li>How angry are all the hardware vendors going to be over this news?</li></ol><MORE />To be honest, I'm not really even that concerned about how angry or upset Microsoft's partners would be about something like this. This is mostly because these vendors are a large part of the reason why things are not as great as they could be. With the exception of HTC my personal opinion is that the majority of Windows Mobile handset makers just 'don't get it'. Looking back over the last few years of handset releases no carrier has really gone out of their way like HTC has to bring us a truly great mobile experience. Sure Samsung dipped its toes in the water with their Samsung Blackjack variant with the pretty and WM 6.1ish nifty homescreen, but unless you wanted to install a cooked ROM onto your device there was no chance that we would see this hint of what Windows Mobile could be in any other Samsung Blackjack out there in the wild and with Samsung's recent releases of Windows Mobile handsets you probably could never tell that there was a creative bone in their bodies at all! This is incredibly annoying as some of my biggest complaints as an end user has always been the sheer lack of anything pretty to look at on our devices. Take for instance one of my biggest pet peeves with my Smartphone - super tiny contact images that would make Ray Palmer proud. According to Microsoft they left the ability for the handset makers to go in and tweak these to their liking as with almost everything else on the operating system but unfortunately no one ever took advantage of it. Instead what we received for years on end was the comforting knowledge in knowing that each company was just going to point the finger at the other and no one would take responsibility for leaving us with this horrible case of the uglies. This one reason alone is why I have stated many times that if Microsoft was truly serious about competing on this new mobile plane, one where in the past years consumers have shown us that they wanted smartphone like features in user friendly packages, Microsoft would have to take complete control of their mobile operating system. They would have to control every aspect from hardware design to software design. It is not like we're still living in the days of Windows 95. Microsoft has shown us in the past that when it comes to making things pleasant to look at they are not as inept as they once were. Take the Zune and Windows Media Center for instance. Both products are some of the most ascetically pleasing releases Microsoft has ever had. It is one of the benefits to having pockets as large as Microsoft. If you lack a skill such as design then go out and buy that skill! So that finally brings us to where we are now. Everyone seems to be convinced that Microsoft's recent memo about taking full control of the hardware and software will lead to the release of a Zune based handset and it probably could. My honest opinion is that as much as I would love to see Microsoft release a device such as this, it would just be way to confusing to the market place and would probably frustrate customers instead of making them happy be giving them what they want. I mean think about, do we really need a fourth Windows Mobile SKU?! I will be the first person to admit that when it comes to Windows Mobile we definitely need a change. However creating an offset version of it to address just a tiny fraction of what is wrong with the OS is not really the way to go. Let's face it, at the heart of the matter Windows Mobile is a broken experience. It is hands down my favorite mobile operating system out there, but it could be way better. Instead of just putting a band-aid on problem and hoping that everything will be okay, I would just love to see Microsoft tear the whole thing down and rebuild that bad boy up from scratch. Hopefully this is what we can expect Windows Mobile 7 will be, a complete redesign from the ground up, but Microsoft is so hush-hush on the subject that I am actually starting to worry that we will get just more of the same. There is a shred of hope however. As the memo states above Microsoft if finally starting to see the light when it comes to not allowing your their vendors to defecate on their products. Apple has finally started to force Microsoft into a different way of thinking and what comes out of these new thought processes I am confident will help shape all of our futures for years to come. What we need is something new and fresh and I finally feel that Microsoft is at the point in their game to give it to us. We as consumers need a new consumer friendly Windows Mobile operating system that allows us all to manage our media and information with ease. We do not however need the Zune software tacked onto current Windows Mobile devices, given a new name, and sent out there into the wild. At the rate we're going it feels like Windows Mobile is starting to turn into a game of Jenga and I'm afraid at any moment the whole thing is just going to fall down.Rocco Augusto is the Managing Editor for <a href="http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/">Smartphone Thoughts</a> and owns and operates <a href="http://www.skimbee.com/">Skimbee Studios</a>, a small Web Development studio located in Portland, Oregon where he currently resides. When he isn't tweaking code or playing with his one of his many gadgets, you will most likely find him spending time playing with his beautiful daughter and chasing his two small kittens off of the kitchen counters.

benjimen

07-30-2008, 11:20 PM

You probably coulda got this down to a couple paragraphs...

raulr

07-30-2008, 11:28 PM

@Rocco

I agree. They could just update their UI on Windows Mobile to be by default user friendly instead of expecting manufacturers to tweak it and make it usable. HTC is trying, but it would be so much better if MS just fixed the UI and made it the default. No need for a Zune phone just to have a nice UI.

A zunephone could have it's place if they just wanted to make it an extension of the Zune line though.

caywen

07-30-2008, 11:31 PM

I think WM7 will be a disappointment. Microsoft has never once made a subsequent OS work better with the given resources. Every new release with significant changes also require new hardware. WM7 will be no different. Given how slow and clunky WM6 and prior are, I have doubts about MS's ability to execute against iPhone.

MS needs to change the WM programming model *and* the UI model. The only pragmatic way, without asking for 1GB phones w/ desktop processors, is to throw out compatibility and *trust* developers to port their applications.

gmontem

07-31-2008, 12:37 AM

I read somewhere that Apple wrote in their iPhone SDK -- "only one iPhone application can run at a time". I'm pretty sure WM7 can run as fast as the iPhone if Microsoft did something similar.

JonDeutsch

07-31-2008, 03:09 AM

Ballmer is unfortunately a man without a vision. Ever since becoming CEO, MSFT has been adrift, and it's pretty astonishing how little he has been in the spotlight as the problem at Microsoft.

Microsoft will utterly fail at following Apple's lead in approach to total software+hardware control to ensure a great end-to-end experience. Why? Because Microsoft was not designed to be that kind of company. There is just too much cultural DNA to fight. The culture is great at some things, and pathetic at others. Front-end development, generally, is not MSFT's strong suit. Their background is primarily in application development tools, operating systems, office tools, networking, and information-rich consumer software.

The only time they successfully copied Apple was with Windows 3.0-XP.

Microsoft needs a VISION of how they will uniquely contribute to technology in the 21st century. And I don't think copying Apple constitutes a viable vision. Sure, the user experience is becoming increasingly important for all technology. So, nobody is going to argue with them focusing on that.

But, how should MSFT faciliate this? MSFT has a great philosophy of enabling innovation by shipping out basic software and having ISVs and VARs optimize the baseline technology. Distributed innovation is still the best way to ensure the best innovation.

So, what MSFT needs to do is not to become Apple II (get it?), but, rather thread the needle and use their stong suit, but evolve it to ensure user experience excellence.

How?

Set better and stronger standards and constraints on the baseline technology from which ISVs can innovate. Which also means build better templated tools within the baseline to make it easy to stay "inside the lines" and harder to go by the wayside in the experience.

It's templates, it's style guides, it's enforcement. When you give the development community better tools, they'll more readily stay within the standards.

Don't do a closed-room solve like the iPhone store. But give users the option to select "approved" applications. Just don't kill the open innovation culture that's out there today, which ensures your enthusiast audience stays interested.

People want choices. So, if MSFT is going to move toward the Apple model, they better keep some competitive advantages beyond the Microsoft "brand." That's not enough (see Zune v. iPod). The Zune is not successful because it tried too hard to be the iPod.

There needs to be some vision within Microsoft to not just be a bigger, badder Apple. Microsoft needs to have the vision to upgrade itself to be 21st-century compatible.

Jon

Underwater Mike

07-31-2008, 04:26 AM

After 8 years with WM, I bought an iPhone on MON. It's not perfect -- sealed battery, no card slot, incomplete BT profile -- and I miss some of the software on my HTC handset. But...

1) This thing is generally much faster and smoother-operating than any WM handset I've ever seen -- including viewing HTML email and Office attachments on email.

2) The graphics and UI touches are beautiful.

3) It's cheaper than any WM handset with comparable specs, at least on my contract.

If MSFT can come out with something that matches the iPhone's strengths while besting its weaknesses, I'd consider switching back. But, given the glacial pace of WM imrovements over the last few years, I'm not holding my breath.

Rocco Augusto

07-31-2008, 05:47 AM

There needs to be some vision within Microsoft to not just be a bigger, badder Apple. Microsoft needs to have the vision to upgrade itself to be 21st-century compatible.

Jon

I would say the opposite. I think Microsoft's problem is that they have too much vision and not enough attention span. There are a ton of really cool ideas floating around Microsoft and some of those ideas come out with a big bang (e.g. - Origami) but they quickly fizzle out as Microsoft jumps to the next 'big thing' project like a 10 year old with ADHD. It is probably one of the reasons I like Microsoft so much as I often do the same thing :D

Rocco Augusto

07-31-2008, 05:54 AM

3) It's cheaper than any WM handset with comparable specs, at least on my contract.

It is also less expensive when purchased out-of-contract then Windows Mobile phones of the same specs. I have been dying to buy a Touch Diamond lately (first Pocket PC I desperately wanted) but I just cannot stomach the retail price of $700USD. That's ridiculous. Growing up my first car cost $700 and the thought of paying as much for a phone as I did for a car (even if it was a junker) is unbelievable.

virain

07-31-2008, 08:16 AM

Ah, Excuse me, guys! But I don't think MS needs another Zune phone, or something like that at all... I mean Zune Phone would run Zune OS, wouldn't it? Not Windows Mobile? And why would MS bother with creating another phone? You said complete control over hardware, better user experience? Well believe it or not MS has it as of right now! it is called Sidekick! Yes! Good Old T-Mobile Sidekick, Paris Hilton's favorite! And it looks like MS just announced a new one. And it has everything you ask for, Better user experience, simple intuitive interface, you can download games and music directly from the web to the unit, Just like iPhone App. Store! But then again, if all you need from your device is just to listen to music watch a couple of flix, and play silly games (just like with iPhone ), but of course you probably despise that i-word thing. Then Sidekick maybe just what you are looking for. On the other hand if you need to be productive, complete some work, did some heavy emailings, and by the end of the day to relax to the sound of your favorite MP3, or any other standard, Tune, then WM, maybe clumsy, and not that easy to poke with your sausage like finger, but capable to accommodate you with all those tasks either separately, or at once, may be your best choice at this time. :)
T-Mobile Sidekick Review (Phone Arena) (http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/T-Mobile-Sidekick-Review-review-r_1984.html)

r@dimus

07-31-2008, 03:22 PM

Microsoft releasing a Zune phone would not surprise me. Windows Mobile is perilously close to becoming a dead brand walking. While Microsoft states that they are changing the way the work with their hardware vendors, depending on how the agreements are set up with their Windows Mobile device makers they may not be able to change those or change them quickly enough to keep Windows Mobile from going the way of Palm. To stay in the market they may have to create a new platform, with new vendor agreements, and start all over again.

Jon Childs

07-31-2008, 03:23 PM

After 8 years with WM, I bought an iPhone on MON.

Well I only had a WM phone for 5 years, but did have various flavors of microsoft based PDAs before that, and I made the jump last week also. My technically challenged wife had her 2G iphone since last Christmas and hasn't had to reset in once, and my 6 year old son actually figured out how to dial me specifically with her phone without anyone showing him. Which led me to believe it was stable as hell and easy to use. The iphone might not do everything my Tilt could do, but what it can do is easy and reliable. With push email supported and good GPS software coming I had just had enough of my current WM phone. Plus mobile safari itself is almost reason enough to change.

David Tucker

07-31-2008, 04:56 PM

Microsoft releasing a Zune phone would not surprise me. Windows Mobile is perilously close to becoming a dead brand walking.

This is a very misinformed statement, though. Microsoft has been outselling RIM for a while now and this fiscal year projects 20 million WinMo sales. Last year was 10 million. Far from being a dead brand walking, its thriving in the business world. That's not to let them off the hook. They need to radically shift the user experience on their phones. But the important thing is that they can do that without going the iPhone route. The iPhone has had to become more like the WinMo devices to be more successful in that its now a much more flexible platform. But if MS & its partners do what they need in the end user experience, then the plethora of choices you get with WinMo is a bit more compelling, imo, than the singular iPhone.

But this is about the Zune Phone. I don't believe that a special Zune platform is desirable. However, a consumer oriented WinMo device with Zune support on it would be a great offering. They should really replace WMP on all WinMo phones with Zune support. I mean...why not??

Rocco Augusto

07-31-2008, 05:37 PM

Ah, Excuse me, guys! But I don't think MS needs another Zune phone, or something like that at all... I mean Zune Phone would run Zune OS, wouldn't it?

If I am not mistaken I believe the Zune OS is running no top of Windows CE. If this is the case designing a Windows Mobile phone around the Zune concept wouldn't be that hard (in theory.) We would have the underlining OS with some of the Zune guys though (David? Jason? Adam? :D)

And why would MS bother with creating another phone? You said complete control over hardware, better user experience? Well believe it or not MS has it as of right now! it is called Sidekick! Yes! Good Old T-Mobile Sidekick, Paris Hilton's favorite! And it looks like MS just announced a new one.

I dislike the Sidekick so much. Using your phone shouldn't be like watching a Transformer go to work. Sure maybe it would be cool if I was still in high school (though I doubt it) but having a phone where one of the main features is the screen flipping around without a care in the world is just an accident waiting to happen with me. :p

Rocco Augusto

07-31-2008, 05:39 PM

...my 6 year old son actually figured out how to dial me specifically with her phone without anyone showing him. Which led me to believe it was stable as hell and easy to use.

Let's not forget your son being smart as well! Give the boy some credit! ;) :D :p

r@dimus

07-31-2008, 05:43 PM

David, please tell me how your statement jives with this:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/06/02/us-smartphone-market-share-down-for-apple-in-2008

And are those 20 million sales actual devices in consumers' hands or licenses Microsoft sold to the device makers? Are they all licenses for smartphones or are stand-alone PDA's and embedded systems mixed in with that? Everything I'm finding puts that number as licenses sold, which when it comes to actual devices on the street is meaningless. And how you can expect your statement about Microsoft outselling RIM to be believable when RIM holds almost half of the US market and is the biggest player globally next to Nokia:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/02/05/iphone-owns-28-percent-of-us-smartphone-market

It seems to me that Microsoft is possibily thinking about turning the Zune into a consumer-oriented phone that can better compete with the iPhone rather then as a replacement for WinMo. When the iPhone first hit the market, most of the people buying them were first-time smartphone buyers. These people had already passed on RIM, WinMo, Palm, etc. Apple hit the mark with these buyers and pushed WinMo to third place within one fiscal quarter. That was Microsoft's wake up call, and I hope they heed it. Maybe this is evidence that they are coming around.

David Tucker

07-31-2008, 06:06 PM

Smartphone is a very limited definition. WinMo devices outsold RIM. That's all that matters. If that metric doesn't capture that then its because its ignoring certain classes of WinMo devices.

Edit : I do however mostly agree with what you say there ;)

Frankie1

07-31-2008, 06:12 PM

stevew

07-31-2008, 06:54 PM

You know I don't even care anymore.

I was a PPC, PPC Phone and Smartphone user since they first hit the streets. It was great in the early days but as of 2 or 3 years ago the love just wasn't there anymore. I wanted a change and it wasn't happening with Microsoft or the vendors.

So after much thought I purchased an iPhone over a year ago. I'm very satisified. Is it perfect, no, but what it does it does very well.

When the 2.0 software came out I upgraded:

It was free
I didn't have to purchase a new phone to get it.
I didn't have to wonder if my phone was going to be upgraded or not.
I upgraded by syncing my phone with iTunes
It backed up EVERYTHING and after the upgrade it restored EVERYTHING.
I can get applications by syncing with iTunes not having to go to Handango.
My application upgrades are done by syncing and it's been flawless.
All the device settings are in one location not scattered all over the place.
I love the ease of use for listening to music and Podcasts.
The phone works perfectly.
The UI is excellent.
If something does go wrong I can restore to exactly the way it was. I don't have to reinstall everything from scratch and spend hours reconfiguring the device.

I'm not an Apple fanboy.
In fact I've always been very loyal to Microsoft.

But I don't care anymore.

Damion Chaplin

07-31-2008, 07:55 PM

Well, I just installed the WM 6.1 Beta on my Pantech Duo, and I had it fully installed and all my information and applications back on the phone within 15 minutes, so I'm not really that impressed with your experience with iPhone/iTunes. The hardware manufacturers are perfectly able to make the upgrade experience a pleasant one. If it's not, well, it's not Microsoft's fault, it's the phone's manufacturer.

BTW, the 6.1 home screen interface is fantastic, and something we've needed badly for years. Yes it seems like it's just a band-aid, but it's a huge step in the right direction. If they keep going in that direction and just step on the accelerator a littler harder, they could in fact make WM a decent competitor to the iPhone.

So really, it doesn't matter whether they try to make WM better or ditch it for a new and better operating system, as long as they keep heading in this direction.

Oh yeah, and fantastic article, Rocco. Ignore what that first poster said. :)

And hey, watch what you say about Transformers, K? ;)

virain

07-31-2008, 08:19 PM

If I am not mistaken I believe the Zune OS is running no top of Windows CE. If this is the case designing a Windows Mobile phone around the Zune concept wouldn't be that hard (in theory.) We would have the underlining OS with some of the Zune guys though (David? Jason? Adam? :D)

I dislike the Sidekick so much. Using your phone shouldn't be like watching a Transformer go to work. Sure maybe it would be cool if I was still in high school (though I doubt it) but having a phone where one of the main features is the screen flipping around without a care in the world is just an accident waiting to happen with me. :p

It is not a question of personal preferences, but existing facts. 15 y.o. girls and some that older (my example above) do like it, and not only girls, my friend's son, 17 y.o. now is on his 3rd Sidkick. And in IMHO Danger (now subsidy of MSFT) does something right. So why would MSFT develop Zune phone? It does seems redundant. From business point of view, and, frankly, logical, to continue improvement of Sidekick, adding new features, makes much more sence, that create a competition to yourself :)

Frankie1

07-31-2008, 09:27 PM

I'm not an Apple fanboy. In fact I've always been very loyal to Microsoft. But I don't care anymore.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

I have no immediate plans for switching to the iPhone, but your post makes complete sense. You sound as sincere as someone can be, and you everything you mentioned is accurate.

One of the main reasons I have not moved on to the iPhone is because of the Samsung Omnia, which seems as close to perfect as a phone can get (besides the dissapointing resolution).

Rocco Augusto

07-31-2008, 11:32 PM

Oh yeah, and fantastic article, Rocco. Ignore what that first poster said. :)

Thank you :)

And hey, watch what you say about Transformers, K? ;)

Ha, will do!

Jason Dunn

07-31-2008, 11:59 PM

You know I don't even care anymore.

Well thanks for continuing to post here anyway - it's always nice to get different opinions. :D

whydidnt

08-01-2008, 02:46 AM

It wouldn't surprise me if a Zune Phone or similar was released. We saw MS get trounced completely by Apple with their Media-OS and "Plays for Not Sure" device manufactured by third parties. They eventually got tired of it and went a completely different direction with the Zune. I haven't used one, but by all accounts it provides a MUCH better experience than the old devices we saw from Creative, Samsung, etc.

I've been harping on the OEMs lack of progress for years, and I have to believe MS feels the same way. Don't get me wrong MS shares some responsibility, as the OS has been stagnant as well, but too many WM devices are just reshaped offerings that we've seen several times and several years before.

After continuing to struggle with my "new" iPaq 910 while on the road this week. I am finding that I'm using my upgraded iPod Touch more and more. My primary usage while traveling is for media, internet and email (corporate and personal), calendar and note taking. The Touch is soooo much better at all of this except note taking and the calendar app, but as far as the calendar it's not a huge issue for me. I'm starting to wonder why I don't just bite the bullet and get an iPhone and carry one less item, charging cord, etc. The iPhone is definitely not just a pretty UI as some would have you believe. Opening up HTML email on the Touch using the same WiFi network as the Ipaq is about 3-4 times faster. I'm so tired of see the "message is loading" notification and being unable to scroll or do anything until it completely loads on the iPaq.

So having said that, I typically prefer the openness of the MS model, but in the case of phones, I'm starting to think that it's currently not working as well as I would hope. I'm hopeful that MS sees this too (not just licenses sold) and does decide to deliver a complete hardware/software package.

joker

08-01-2008, 11:32 AM

I am glad that Microsoft is restricting hardware vendors.
And imho Microsoft should kill HTC.

And yes, Rocco, nice article, but the follwong part is the most ridiculous:
With the exception of HTC ...

After the HTC Alpine aka Qtek 2020i aka o2 XDA 2i HTC somehow managed to f*ck up the user experience with any device, that's a fact.

I am going to get me an HTC Diamond. It's a crappy device - because of no memory expansion slot - but still, I am going to get it, because there is no better alternative and you either have to accept the industrial ripping off or live in the woods.

Jon Childs

08-01-2008, 03:29 PM

Let's not forget your son being smart as well! Give the boy some credit! ;) :D :p

Nothing warms a geek Dad's heart like a son who already likes random electronic gadgetry and is contantly bugging me about when we are going to see the next Star Wars movie.... Although I have mixed feelings about getting beat up at Wii boxing. :)

Rocco Augusto

08-01-2008, 07:48 PM

And yes, Rocco, nice article, but the follwong part is the most ridiculous:...

After the HTC Alpine aka Qtek 2020i aka o2 XDA 2i HTC somehow managed to f*ck up the user experience with any device, that's a fact.

Thanks joker! Yes but over the past year they have been trying to redeem themselves a little (at least I think so.) With Touch FLO and now the new snazzy Touch Diamond interface we are getting a lot more out of HTC then we are other hardware makers at the moment.

HTC isn't the end all of user interfaces and there is probably more HTC could do to make the device better but as a consumer I appreciate what they are doing more than anyone else in the market. They show us a glimpse of what Windows Mobile could be, and I dig it :)

Janak Parekh

08-01-2008, 08:41 PM

Well, I just installed the WM 6.1 Beta on my Pantech Duo, and I had it fully installed and all my information and applications back on the phone within 15 minutes, so I'm not really that impressed with your experience with iPhone/iTunes. The hardware manufacturers are perfectly able to make the upgrade experience a pleasant one. If it's not, well, it's not Microsoft's fault, it's the phone's manufacturer. Which phone manufacturer/carrier offers 4 software upgrades in 13 months (albeit, two of them were minor)? Out of curiosity, where did you get the beta from? :)

Even if you don't like what Apple has done with the iPhone, they deserve credit for regularly releasing OS updates. I understand the Microsoft model is different, splitting the device manufacturer from the OS vendor. However, I would much prefer a WM architecture that allows base OS updates from Microsoft itself, somewhat roughly akin to what happens on the desktop.

If they keep going in that direction and just step on the accelerator a littler harder, they could in fact make WM a decent competitor to the iPhone. I don't think anyone disagrees with this. However, people have voiced impatience with Microsoft's pace and the scope of their releases. Let's hope WM7 improves the latter, although the former still remains a problem.

--janak

Jason Dunn

08-01-2008, 08:51 PM

Even if you don't like what Apple has done with the iPhone, they deserve credit for regularly releasing OS updates.

No doubt. Apple has the model down pat - Microsoft's current model SUCKS. BAD. Unless you're willing to go the warez/ROM-remix route (I'm not) there are virtually no updates released on any regular basis for many Windows Mobile phones.

I really want Windows Mobile 6.1 for my Samsung Blackjack II. But where can I get it from, legitimately? Nowhere. :mad:

bubuschoeny

08-01-2008, 09:54 PM

I think the Iphone actually did MSFT a favor. They have been trying to bring touch based products to the maintream for years and failed. But thanks to the Iphone the touch screen erra is here. Would MS like to have been the first one sure, but its not the end, its the beginnng.

MS is learning and learning very quickly look at the drastic changes in the Zune 2 vs the Zune 1. Like it or hate it, it's a worthy Ipod alternative. Look at how much the Zune marketplace has changed and grown. Another question does the Zune need to outsell Ipod to make a profit in a word no.

I don't see a zune phone happening what I see is a zune marketplace on everything but the Iphone. Nokia is in talks with MS to produce a Zune market place for Symbian. I'm sure there are poeple at RIM that would consider the same idea. I could also see MS working with cell phone carriers to include the cost of a zune subcription in the monthly bill. I think a subscriptoin based model of some sort will ultimately win. Anyway thats my two cents.

Damion Chaplin

08-01-2008, 10:58 PM

Out of curiosity, where did you get the beta from? :)

Well, I don't think I should provide the link here, but let's just say I found it pretty easily by doing an internet search for "Pantech Duo 6.1 Beta"

Even if you don't like what Apple has done with the iPhone, they deserve credit for regularly releasing OS updates.

Oh, totally. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Though if you ask me 4 upgrades in 13 months just shows it was released too early... However, as a long-time WM user, I can tell you even one upgrade in a phone's life cycle is more than most manufacturers do, so yes, kudos to Apfel.

Janak Parekh

08-01-2008, 11:02 PM

Well, I don't think I should provide the link here, but let's just say I found it pretty easily by doing an internet search for "Pantech Duo 6.1 Beta" No, no link necessary. ;) Just making sure it wasn't an official beta or somesuch, as that would be a startling departure from the status quo in WM.

(Which, frustratingly, has gone backwards. In the era of the first generation Pocket PCs, there was an expectation that upgradeable firmware = one significant OS upgrade. This is nowhere near the universal case now; I'd consider it an exception. :( )

--janak

Jason Dunn

08-01-2008, 11:14 PM

Well, I don't think I should provide the link here, but let's just say I found it pretty easily by doing an internet search for "Pantech Duo 6.1 Beta"

But doesn't that kind of undermine your point about updates? How many average users are going to install an OS update on their phone from an unknown third party?

Damion Chaplin

08-02-2008, 02:19 AM

But doesn't that kind of undermine your point about updates?

To be honest, I'm not sure what point you're referring to. :confused:

How many average users are going to install an OS update on their phone from an unknown third party?

Well, zero, of course. Beta versions, especially leaked ones, are pretty much by definition not for average users. ;) However, rumor has it AT&T will be releasing WM6.1 for their current lineup of phones this fall (Moto Q, Blackjack II, Tilt, Pantech Duo), and I think most people would be OK downloading the official upgrade from AT&T's site.

Rocco Augusto

08-04-2008, 04:10 AM

But doesn't that kind of undermine your point about updates? How many average users are going to install an OS update on their phone from an unknown third party?

Working in a cellphone store I learned average users do not install official updates when they are available, let alone cooked ones. This is why I like Apple's us of iTunes as a central hub for all things iPod/Phone related.

If there was a way to have Windows Mobile Device Center notify you if their was an update available for your phone, then I'm sure more Windows Mobile users would install these updates. The average user isn't usually doesn't read sites like this so they have no way of knowing updates even exist for their handset.

The irony here is the lack of communication leads people to not updating but these are communication devices so their shouldn't be an issue with communication at all. :D

Jason Dunn

08-04-2008, 08:04 PM

To be honest, I'm not sure what point you're referring to.

Well, what you said was:

"Well, I just installed the WM 6.1 Beta on my Pantech Duo, and I had it fully installed and all my information and applications back on the phone within 15 minutes, so I'm not really that impressed with your experience with iPhone/iTunes. The hardware manufacturers are perfectly able to make the upgrade experience a pleasant one. If it's not, well, it's not Microsoft's fault, it's the phone's manufacturer."

So you're basically saying that Windows Mobile can be great at updates...but that's really only if people are willing to use cooked ROMs, and most won't - nor should they be. The upgrade/update story for Windows Mobile largely SUCKS right now...even if you're lucky enough to get a ROM update, it will wipe out all your info and settings, so you have to re-program your phone from scratch. That's why I stopped doing email for all my accounts on my Windows Mobile phone - setting up five (!!) IMAP accounts and one Exchange account after every ROM update was SO frustrating.

So given all that, I don't know how you can say that the iPhone/iTunes upgrade experience isn't light-years beyond what we have now as Windows Mobile users. :confused:

Jason Dunn

08-04-2008, 08:23 PM

Working in a cellphone store I learned average users do not install official updates when they are available, let alone cooked ones. This is why I like Apple's us of iTunes as a central hub for all things iPod/Phone related.

That's a great point - most users don't realize there's an update for their phone that will fix some of the problems they're having. With iTunes, the user docks their phone to sync some music or videos, and voila, they're notified about an update. That's just slick. That's the way it SHOULD be...either that or device-side update notices.

If there was a way to have Windows Mobile Device Center notify you if their was an update available for your phone, then I'm sure more Windows Mobile users would install these updates.

Great idea! I bet they haven't implemented something like that now because the upgrade story is so frickin' ugly...the first time a customer had an update and lost all their device information and had to re-install applications, etc., they'd swear off ever updating again.

stevew

08-04-2008, 11:46 PM

If there was a way to have Windows Mobile Device Center notify you if their was an update available for your phone, then I'm sure more Windows Mobile users would install these updates.

That would be a good step forward but I couldn't even get WMDC to work at all on my Vista Notebook, which was one of the main reasons I got fed up with WM. :)