pocketnow.com Compares QVGA and VGA Screens

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=portal_detail&t=news&id=5056' target='_blank'>http://pocketnow.com/index.php?a=po...&t=news&id=5056</a><br /><br /></div><i>"I've been wanting to this comparison for a while now, but in order for it to be a fair comparison, I wanted both devices in the test to share the same screen size. Recently I procured an E-TEN Glofiish X800 (which has a 2.8" 480x640 VGA screen), making it a good device to compare to the E-TEN Glofiish X500 (which has a more standard 2.8" 240x320 QVGA screen). As you can see in the video, the VGA screen may be considered a novelty by some unless you do a lot of internet browsing or map viewing on your device."</i><br /><br />Brandon Miniman from pocketnow.com has done an excellent job comparing a QVGA to a VGA screen - the video is below and shows some of the differences. All things being equal, I'll always prefer a higher-resolution screen - yet the trade-offs in battery life and performance can't be easily ignored. What's your take on VGA vs. QVGA - is it a must-have or a nice-to-have?<br /><br /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DAbpafh2Rjg&rel=1&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"width="425" height="355"></embed>

[buzzard]

Having owned a 4700 with VGA I really miss it and the 2795 I use now is QVGA. QVGA is acceptable but not as nice to look at. I plan on buying the new 210 (or whatever the right number is) later this year and the main reason is the VGA screen.

I'd rate it a nice to have until it comes time to buy, then it morphs into a must have. :devilboy:

[r90a22]

it's a nice to have feature, but I take performance and battery life over a VGA screen anytime. if I need to view something in VGA my laptop does a great job.

[starstreak]

That video is so wrong. It'll be hard to show it on a "you tube" type video. Everything is blurry. The X800 is a bad example of pointing out how "slow" having a VGA screen. From the start, the X800 is SLOW pda. Any way you look at the device. It was said by everybody who owned one. VGA WILL slow down the device, but alot of that was due to the unit being used. And as more and more pdas come out with dedicated GPUs, this will be a mute point.

Its like saying the windows mobile 6 crappy because it pauses and won't pickup all the screen taps on a TILT mobile phone. Its the TILT thats bad. WM6 wasn't at fault.

He should've showed the calender view of agenda with it showing text. Its soo much useable vs a qvga screen.

Again, commenting that the VGA was crappier because its not as bright is the fault of the X800. Not all VGA screens are dimmer. If it was a FACT, then all monitors for homes (which is made the same way) is going to be dimmer the higher the resolution. And that is not the case.

[alese]

I would take a VGA screen over the qVGA anyday, the only problem is that very few devices have VGA and they are mostly hard to get (or even impossible) and expensive.

[alex_kac]

One of the biggest issues with VGA screens is that they put a wonderful screen, but the same amount of RAM and video hardware behind it that a QVGA device has. With that in mind, no wonder its slower. The x800 may be slower overall even if it had QVGA, but this is a normal thing.

[starstreak]

Since they already have GPUs in the newest pdas, I wouldn't worry about it.

One of the biggest issues with VGA screens is that they put a wonderful screen, but the same amount of RAM and video hardware behind it that a QVGA device has. With that in mind, no wonder its slower. The x800 may be slower overall even if it had QVGA, but this is a normal thing.

[AndyH]

Since they already have GPUs in the newest pdas, I wouldn't worry about it.


GPUs are worthless unless it is supported by software. My O2 Flame (VGA) being a good example with the Nvidia GoForce 5500 GPU. It looks beautiful on a spec sheet but untill Coreplayer (or any other player) supports it, why have it?

[mmidgley]

I have had five QVGA devices, and especially when I moved to converged (so the screen size shrank so the dpi increased) I have never minded it--they look great. Compared to my Apple Newton that was 4bit greyscale they really look great. Then I saw a VGA Dell ppc and it was impressive. PI in month view with mini text is ok on QVGA but rocks in VGA. Then last year I decided it was time to move beyond a WM5 200 omap device. I got one of the first X800's and the screen was awesome! I had to return it as I couldn't make calls. I'm fine with this as I don't think 64 ram is enough (how long will it be before we demand 196 or 256 instead of 128?), no SDHC, and the processor/gpu really needs to support VGA.

I think VGA is just the future of all these devices. I look at my brother's Nokia N800 and N810 and the displays are fabulous. If gpu/cpu's can do better and batteries can handle it (like the 9502's big 1660mah?) then we'll all have these displays. HTC can't hold us back forever!

You can tell I'm watching the 9502. Its spec initially stated 18bit color but has been reduced to 16bit. That's either for processing efficiency, cost reduction, or both. I wonder how much of an impact this will have. The X800 did show banding and other graphic artifacts (even on their bootloader image--you'd think they'd spend a minute in photoshop to optimize it for 16bit color). Any comments on 16 vs 18bit?

m.

[Paragon]

I've owned VGA devices and I've owned QVGA devices. VGA devices are crisper, no doubt. However when you consider the preformance hit, and the necesary increase in RAM and battery size to run a VGA screen, I see little denifite for the minimal difference. When I want to view something that has a great crisp and clear screen I tend to use my 42" widescreen TV, not my sub 3" telephone. MY 2.8" QVGA screen is more than adequate for my viewing needs.

I thing VGA on a 5" screen found on the HTC 7500 ruuning in true VGA mode is absolutely spectacular. It is big enough that even in true VGA characters and icons are easily viewed. On a 2.8" screen everything has to be rendered larger to be viewed, undoing the VGA effect.

I'm all for progress, and I can see many devices using VGA screens in the future but at the moment I don't se a wide NEED for it. I'm quit certain that if you polled the millions and millions of mobile devices users and asked them what VGA is, not many outside of forums such as this would know or care about VGA, or wish the cost of their device be increased to support it.

Dave

[Kassad]

Last year I switched from a HTC Universal to an HTC Hermes and recently switched back, mainly because of the screen. The difference is huge, I just love the VGA screen. Also the Uni is much faster than the Hermes, so VGA doesnt have to have an performance impact.

[starstreak]

Talk about using a device for what it was for. This is a PDA. A personal digital assistant. You want information. Calender that shows the most information, Internet, phone, etc.
The PDA grew from that to include music/video/camera, etc.

If you take a PDA for what it was made for, it NEEDS the VGA for clarity. I don't play games on mine. I don't watch movies on mine. I have an ipod and a laptop to do that. I don't believe in watching a movie on the ipod, but many do. And that has a smaller screen than most pdas. Getting OT there. VGA will help everything as a whole.

If your worried about battery life, make a lager battery. Offset the vga useage,by adding less than an ounce of weight and 2mm? More than enough to compensate the measly 10minutes of battery you lost between qvga and VGA. Live with it.
Worried about speed? I'm sure like anything like computers, a GPU and fast CPU will offset that. And Nvidia and Qualcomm already have that covered. Worried about battery again? See previous paragraph.

Stop complaing about speed and battery, when thats the easiest thing to fix. Stop worrying that it'll make the pda too big. The TILT is on the verge of being too small. I would've bought it if it was a inch bigger. And a inch of battery is like hours of useage.

Heck, wait about a year and that 10x longer lasting litho-ion battery will be out. Then things will shift into high gear.

People who say they can live without VGA, either owned a palm for years or never had someone show them the proper use of what a VGA screen had to offer. In no way should a VGA be considered high-resolution. Sandard tv run 480i. Its just the beginning of things to come.

[mobilyazilar]

I have made a comparison of QVGA (3.5" iPaq 2490) and VGA (3.7" Axim X50v) screens in my blog: http://mobilyazilar.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-difference-between-vga-and-qvga.html

Sorry for giving a link in my first post! I am a reader of Pocket PC Thoughts, but I didn't contribute before.

[yet_another_guest]

...

You can tell I'm watching the 9502. Its spec initially stated 18bit color but has been reduced to 16bit. That's either for processing efficiency, cost reduction, or both. I wonder how much of an impact this will have. The X800 did show banding and other graphic artifacts (even on their bootloader image--you'd think they'd spend a minute in photoshop to optimize it for 16bit color). Any comments on 16 vs 18bit?

m.

yepp. Win Mobile in its current incarnation doesn't support more than 16bit colours. You can use screens that support more, but the OS will only address 16bit coulors.

I think that will change when Microsoft will pull the plug on Win CE and switch to the new, Windows7 microkernel that is said to be modular to empower a full blown server as well as a smartphone.
Watch out, the future will be cool. 8)

[Craig Horlacher]

I can't believe how many people are fine with, or actually prefer qvga screens. You're talking about performance hit and battery life?!?!?!? I need a device that works. The performance and battery life of mine is more than enough.

For me, it's not an option. I use my pda the most for my month view with text in pocket informant. There is no way that's physically possible with and reasonable amount of information on a qvga screen. End of story for me. Everything else is icing on the cake. Well, it's pretty much murder working with any spreadsheet or document at qvga too so I guess I have to take that back.

This will sound harsh but if you're using qvga you're really missing out on your mobile productivity.

Well, whatever works for you...but if you're saying anything negative about a vga device you're probably missing the reasons why some people require it every day in the same way some people do require a qvga device because text is too small at 480x640 on a 2.6" to 4" screen.

[netboy]

I don't se a wide NEED for it. I'm quit certain that if you polled the millions and millions of mobile devices users and asked them what VGA is, not many outside of forums such as this would know or care about VGA, or wish the cost of their device be increased to support it.

Dave

just because people dont know better doesnt mean there is no need for VGA! and if u show a pdaphone to millions and millions of people, they will ask "is that a iphone?" just cus the phone got a touchscreen on it!

[SteveHoward999]

I don't se a wide NEED for it. I'm quit certain that if you polled the millions and millions of mobile devices users and asked them what VGA is, not many outside of forums such as this would know or care about VGA, or wish the cost of their device be increased to support it.

Dave

just because people dont know better doesnt mean there is no need for VGA! and if u show a pdaphone to millions and millions of people, they will ask "is that a iphone?" just cus the phone got a touchscreen on it!

Not just that, but Microsoft has crippled the advantage of VGA since forever by insisting on scaling things instead of giving as a real VGA experience. For most native applications there realy is no advantage to VGA other than crisper text.

I better comparisson for this video would have been to compare the amount of data presented on screen with MS Fake VGA vs Real VGA. Those of us who love VGA already know and accept the performance hits of Real VGA, because we have different priorities. Compare Excel in VGA vs QVGA for instance.

I absolutely agree that the delay in Internet Explorer is frustrating. But then again, I remember lunchtime at school, spending 15 minutes loading Space Invaders from a cassette tape on a Comadore PET in 1980 ...

[SteveHoward999]

I have made a comparison of QVGA (3.5" iPaq 2490) and VGA (3.7" Axim X50v) screens in my blog: http://mobilyazilar.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-difference-between-vga-and-qvga.html



This is a great comparison, and confirms what I have been showing people for years. Thanks for sharing!

[netboy]

that video missing the most important part!
where is the remote desktop client comparsion?
remote desktop in VGA just like you looking at your home monitor!
remote desktop in QVGA is like blocking 75% of the screen monitor!, and u really cant do much with it!

[SteveHoward999]

that video missing the most important part!
where is the remote desktop client comparsion?
remote desktop in VGA just like you looking at your home monitor!
remote desktop in QVGA is like blocking 75% of the screen monitor!, and u really cant do much with it!

mobilyazilar's blog shows this.

I've used GoToMyPC with my E830. I can run it at 1024x768 resolution and do almost everything I need to do easily with only the occasional need to zoom in to full-scale.

[Rob Alexander]

The trouble with the comparison video is that the video quality is so poor that it really doesn't show you anything. You're just taking his word for what he sees. Mobilyazilar's still shots do a better job of demonstrating the difference between the two resolutions.

All other things equal, I'm sure anyone would rather have a VGA screen, but other things are not equal. It's not really about battery life or speed because manufacturers could take those into account and make devices that accommodated that. The real problem is that so few products are available in VGA that it must be considered just one of many features that drive your buying decision and you can't always let that override everything else.

Axims are not sold any more. For a lot of people, a larger 4" screen device, like on the iPaq 210, is out of the question. Some folks need a phone as part of their PDA and that creates other limitations. For example, Alltel is my phone carrier. I don't have a choice about that. Verizon and T-Mobile don't serve my area. AT&amp;T is very sparse here and doesn't reach my home. Some folks get Sprint, but it's dead between towns around here. So if I actually want a signal, I use Alltel. So someone who says I can't live without VGA, pop on over to the Alltel site and tell me what my VGA options are. (Hint: none.)

I love my 2.8" QVGA Touch. The screen appears sharp and crisp to me. I'm sure it would be even better in VGA, but it doesn't come in VGA so the last thing I want to do is to dwell on how much better it could be and make myself discontent with what I do have. Eventually, I'm sure I'll have a VGA option and then I'll probably take it. In the meantime, what I don't know really doesn't hurt me and I'm content.

[mobilyazilar]

I have made a comparison of QVGA (3.5" iPaq 2490) and VGA (3.7" Axim X50v) screens in my blog: http://mobilyazilar.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-is-difference-between-vga-and-qvga.html



This is a great comparison, and confirms what I have been showing people for years. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks Steve :) I'm glad you liked it!

[Sven Johannsen]

remote desktop in VGA just like you looking at your home monitor!
If you run your home monitor in VGA. Might be the case if you are managing a server, but TS into my 24" running 1920x1200, it doesn't much matter if you have VGA or QVGA.

Personally I would take a VGA over a QVGA if they existed. The hits don't bother me. The additional clarity is worth it, even if you don't get any more data on the screen. In fact, as was pointed out in the video, if your eyes aren't that great, the higher resolution, used in hi-res, may not even be readable without reading glasses for some of us.

I actually think referencing pixel density might be a useful spec. 320x240 on a 1.8" screen is a significantly different experience than 320x240 on a 3.8" screen. Certainly you can calculate it, but having it up front would be helpful. Think about your printer. It is spec'd in dots per inch, not just dots up and down. It would be easier to compare dissimilar sized screens.

[Craig Horlacher]

For me it's not clarity, it's screen real estate. I just have more room to see things and do things without scrolling all the time:)

[starstreak]

Remote desktop is a good example, but thats something most people wouldnt use. I thought I would mention that before someone whos rooting for qvga mentions it. :)

I just saw mobilyazilar screenshots. Oh yeah, sooo much better to understand what people are tlaking about. The auther on this board should get permission and post your pictures here. its a much fairer compairason

[Paragon]

I just saw mobilyazilar screenshots. Oh yeah, sooo much better to understand what people are tlaking about. The auther on this board should get permission and post your pictures here. its a much fairer compairason

Oh my God, I have no idea what font that guy is using in his QVGA samples. I have never seen anything so distorted in my life. I don't think that shows anything in reality. I'm fully aware of how much crisper VGA can be but I don't think I've ever seen any type of screen render text like his QVGA samples do. When one does a comparison, it really needs to be fair. I think the PocketNow video does this in a very fair way without manipulating the content to support their own conclusion.

Dave

[starstreak]

Ignore the first couple of examples then. I think its a normal font. Just looking at the webpage examples should be enough to see the details. I could NOT see any details in the video. Not anything that would make me want vga over qvga.

Update: I figured it out. He said "Word Mobile on the lowest zoom level:
" meaning its zoomed out to its max. Read: smallest print so you can see the most text. Not zoomed in at 100% but probably like zoomed out to 50% or something. Its a fair example because its of text of the same size. Just thats one in the UGLY qvga and the other is in VGA. :)

"Oh my God, I have no idea what font that guy is using in his QVGA samples. I have never seen anything so distorted in my life."
And that is why you should hate QVGA its unusable to zoom out. :)

[SteveHoward999]

Oh my God, I have no idea what font that guy is using in his QVGA samples. I have never seen anything so distorted in my life. It's a normal font, just very small. He's trying to show a direct comparison. I you drop standard fonts down to (I forget) 8 or 6 or 4 point or whatever, they look exactly like his images - illegible - when the screen does not have the pixels to show it.

You can show the exact same thing when comparing a 1024x768 screen nect to a 1920x1200 screen. The 1024 screen's text becomes illegible long before it is too small to actually read.

[mobilyazilar]

I just saw mobilyazilar screenshots. Oh yeah, sooo much better to understand what people are tlaking about. The auther on this board should get permission and post your pictures here. its a much fairer compairason

Oh my God, I have no idea what font that guy is using in his QVGA samples. I have never seen anything so distorted in my life. I don't think that shows anything in reality. I'm fully aware of how much crisper VGA can be but I don't think I've ever seen any type of screen render text like his QVGA samples do. When one does a comparison, it really needs to be fair. I think the PocketNow video does this in a very fair way without manipulating the content to support their own conclusion.

Dave

Its the default font, Tahoma. I set the zoom level to minimum (50%) on Word Mobile.

The graph is from Joel's Evidence Based Scheduling (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/10/26.html) article. Viewed using IE Mobile in "One Column" mode. It looks better in "Desktop" mode, but as you know you need to scroll horizontally in this mode. Please see this (http://bp3.blogger.com/_NPv_nmIu1M4/R7djMvkEKcI/AAAAAAAAAl8/qE8IdDtDSMY/s1600-h/DSCF0687.jpg) and this (http://bp0.blogger.com/_NPv_nmIu1M4/R7djM_kEKdI/AAAAAAAAAmE/E5uHW35p7T0/s1600-h/DSCF0688.jpg) photo for comparison. And sorry for the broken digitizer.

If I were trying to manipulate anything, I wouldn't mention the speed and battery life issues.

[Paragon]

I just saw mobilyazilar screenshots. Oh yeah, sooo much better to understand what people are tlaking about. The auther on this board should get permission and post your pictures here. its a much fairer compairason

Oh my God, I have no idea what font that guy is using in his QVGA samples. I have never seen anything so distorted in my life. I don't think that shows anything in reality. I'm fully aware of how much crisper VGA can be but I don't think I've ever seen any type of screen render text like his QVGA samples do. When one does a comparison, it really needs to be fair. I think the PocketNow video does this in a very fair way without manipulating the content to support their own conclusion.

Dave

Its the default font, Tahoma. I set the zoom level to minimum (50%) on Word Mobile.

The graph is from Joel's Evidence Based Scheduling (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/10/26.html) article. Viewed using IE Mobile in "One Column" mode. It looks better in "Desktop" mode, but as you know you need to scroll horizontally in this mode. Please see this (http://bp3.blogger.com/_NPv_nmIu1M4/R7djMvkEKcI/AAAAAAAAAl8/qE8IdDtDSMY/s1600-h/DSCF0687.jpg) and this (http://bp0.blogger.com/_NPv_nmIu1M4/R7djM_kEKdI/AAAAAAAAAmE/E5uHW35p7T0/s1600-h/DSCF0688.jpg) photo for comparison. And sorry for the broken digitizer.

If I were trying to manipulate anything, I wouldn't mention the speed and battery life issues.

Forget the mumbo jumbo. I've never seen a QVGA screen render text like that....never.

I'm not trying to put down VGA. For me, when something gets over sold I tend get turned off by it.

Let's face it.....if a new user of mobile devices was to look at those pictures they would be totally turned off of QVGA, thinking it is completely unreadable. It's far from that. Right!?

Dave

[mobilyazilar]

Forget the mumbo jumbo. I've never seen a QVGA screen render text like that....never.

I'm not trying to put down VGA. For me, when something gets over sold I tend get turned off by it.

Let's face it.....if a new user of mobile devices was to look at those pictures they would be totally turned off of QVGA, thinking it is completely unreadable. It's far from that. Right!?

Dave


I'm not trying to put down QVGA either. It is better in terms of battery life and speed.
An iPaq hx2490 is capable of rendering text like that. Just try zooming out.
It says "smallest text size" and "lowest zoom level" above the images.
So new users would think that companies are selling devices that can not show text?
but... You know what? I will not continue this pointless discussion of manipulation. You are free to believe anything you want Dave. Thanks for pointing out the problems in my blog post.

[hamishmacdonald]

I had a VGA-screen device and said I'd never go back.

You know what? I went back.

[Duncan]

Forget the mumbo jumbo. I've never seen a QVGA screen render text like that....never.

I'm not trying to put down VGA. For me, when something gets over sold I tend get turned off by it.

Let's face it.....if a new user of mobile devices was to look at those pictures they would be totally turned off of QVGA, thinking it is completely unreadable. It's far from that. Right!?

You are being very unfair there. His point is a clear and reasonable one - that at high zoom (to fit as much text on the screen as possible) VGA remains readable and QVGA doesn't. As the entire point is to compare VGA to QVGA, I fail to see how that is 'mumbo-jumbo'.

As for never seeing a QVGA render text like that - bit of a surprise that. You mean you've never zoomed in a document to 50% on a QVGA screen or pushed the text size slider to the far left in settings? 'Cos if you have - then you've seen text render like that.

I don't know whether you are suggesting that he's posted a false image, or just think he's trying to tell people that text in QVGA has to look like that, or something else again - but his images are clearly marked and clearly explained so what's the issue? That there might be someone dumb enough to see 'lowest zoom level' or 'smallest text size' and not understand what they mean?

[Duncan]

I had a VGA-screen device and said I'd never go back.

You know what? I went back.

So did I - but I found my irritation levels in using Pocket Informant, Opera, TextMaker/PlanMaker, imaging, videos etc. on a QVGA screen (and also, shudder, on a 240x240 screen) have led me to want VGA back all the more (and yes - I'll live with lower battery life and slower speed in order to get it).

i-mate 9502, SE Experia X1, E-ten V900, Gsmart MS808 - not sure which it will be yet, but I'm counting the days.

[wmm]

I had a VGA-screen device and said I'd never go back.

You know what? I went back.

So did I - but I found my irritation levels in using Pocket Informant, Opera, TextMaker/PlanMaker, imaging, videos etc. on a QVGA screen (and also, shudder, on a 240x240 screen) have led me to want VGA back all the more.

Same here. I left my Dell Axim X50v when Dell orphaned it and it began to get a bit flaky. I needed a converged device, and the best thing I could find at the time was a QVGA. I came within a hair of returning it, solely based on the resolution, but I decided I could tough it out.

I have, but I'm really looking forward to getting a VGA device again so I can see reasonable-sized chunks of my documents and web pages at once. I just wish they weren't so beastly expensive ($700 for an I-mate Ultimate 6150 -- ouch!).

[Mikey]

After you've had a Dell Axim x50v, it's nearly impossible to go to a non-VGA, especially the mainstream Treo 750, with its 240x240, awful!!! I can't wait to see the Treo with 320x320, might be OK for the switch.

[netboy]

just wish they weren't so beastly expensive ($700 for an I-mate Ultimate 6150 -- ouch!).

if it' worth the money, then money is nothing! i paid 880$ for imate 6150 with overnight delivery and sale taxes from mobileplanet.com, and WTF, they're not even located in California and they charge me sale taxes!

[netboy]

Let's face it.....if a new user of mobile devices was to look at those pictures they would be totally turned off of QVGA, thinking it is completely unreadable. It's far from that. Right!?

Dave

and let me face it, if u have a choice. 2 girls, 1 is cute, 1 is ugly, which one do u choose? haha

[starstreak]

OMG. I'm loosing faith in you, Dave. You never saw a screen like that? I just busted out my QVGA device and zoomed out as far as I can. To be honest. depending on the font I used, it was a bit better than what I saw on that screen, but I think his was the default font. I can't believe with 1000's of posts here, a user on the http://www.onppc.com and you never seen a screen like that.

Like everyone where (mostly everyone) I too went back to QVGA (my tilt) but only becuase I had no choice. I can't wait for soemthing liek the 9502 to come out.


Forget the mumbo jumbo. I've never seen a QVGA screen render text like that....never.

I'm not trying to put down VGA. For me, when something gets over sold I tend get turned off by it.

Let's face it.....if a new user of mobile devices was to look at those pictures they would be totally turned off of QVGA, thinking it is completely unreadable. It's far from that. Right!?

Dave

[Mikey]

Then I saw a VGA Dell ppc and it was impressive. PI in month view with mini text is ok on QVGA but rocks in VGA. Then last year I decided it was time to move beyond a WM5 200 omap device. I got one of the first X800's and the screen was awesome! I had to return it as I couldn't make calls. I'm fine with this as I don't think 64 ram is enough (how long will it be before we demand 196 or 256 instead of 128?), no SDHC, and the processor/gpu really needs to support VGA.

I think VGA is just the future of all these devices. I look at my brother's Nokia N800 and N810 and the displays are fabulous. If gpu/cpu's can do better and batteries can handle it (like the 9502's big 1660mah?) then we'll all have these displays. HTC can't hold us back forever!

m.

The Dell Axim x50v with the Pocket Informant Month View w/ mini text is why I hated the Cingular 8125 &amp; Treo 750 w/ 240x240. Maybe 320x320 will be OK. If the Treo will come out with enough memory, I will switch, just hate all the locking up that WM devices are known for. Until then, I am forced to use the BB Pearl (a great phone that gets email &amp; NEVER locks up!) along with my 3+ year old Dell Axim x50v. I stick w/ Pocket PC mainly for PI, Laridian PocketBible, &amp; Pocket Quicken.

[Paragon]

OMG. I'm loosing faith in you, Dave. You never saw a screen like that?

I have never seen a screen used in such a way. I can only think of one reason that I would adjust my text to the smallest font possible, then zoom it out again, and that is to exaggerate the pixels, because I couldn't do it in a real world everyday use....Why do you want to make something very small then expand it again, in that way?

Since you seem to know me, then you must know that I have spent countless hours and a good deal of my own money promoting Windows Mobile to new users. I have always keyed on newer users who come to forums such as this for solid information on purchases they are about to make. I think it is important that we show them an unbiased view, so when I see pictures such as those posted which can very easily confuse or mislead someone, I make an effort to point it out. How can you look at the picture of the small text that has then been zoomed out and not think that a new user would think this is how text normally looks on QVGA and it is totally unreadable.

....just give people real world info and let them make the right choice for themselves. If they decide on a QVGA device, fine. If they choose a VGA device, good for them. I just can't sit back and let them make a decision without seeing it in real world circumstances.

LIke mobilyazilar I too am finished with this discussion and I'm moving on.....have a good day. :)

[EDIT]

If you really want to see what small font looks like on a QVGA device then click on the thumbnail below. It shows a page using ereader, set at it's smallest font (7 point). It looks very readable to me, even considering the poor photograph. Nothing like the other image shown. It is not as crisp as VGA though....but I think it is a much fairer representaion

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5615/qvgagq0.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qvgagq0.jpg)

Dave

[johnm]

All this debate about VGA is really depressing. Comments like "There aren't that many out there yet", or "VGA devices are slow", or "When graphics acceleration comes...". Seriously, this is why I'm moving away from the platform. In 2004 I bought a graphics accelerated VGA devlce call the HP 4700. It was not slow. The battery life was (still is) great. At the same time Dell released a 640x480 accelerated device called the x50v. It also was not slow.

Here it is 4 years later (an eternity in computer time) and things seem to have taken a step backwards rather than forward. After 4 years all HP can bring is a re-hashed 4700 with a new OS image, a bit more RAM and from what I can tell NO video acceleration. The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous - especially in the post iPhone era. If you have ever owned a VGA device, or used one to surf the web or read an ebook, you'd never want to go back. Or better yet pickup an iPhone or iPod Touch (320x480 - 2x qvga), surf the web, and then tell me that 230x320 is good enough.

[starstreak]

320x320 problem is that the screen is smaller than most normal wm systems. so even though the fonts are readable, area will still still be tight.

The Dell Axim x50v with the Pocket Informant Month View w/ mini text is why I hated the Cingular 8125 &amp; Treo 750 w/ 240x240. Maybe 320x320 will be OK. If the Treo will come out with enough memory, I will switch, just hate all the locking up that WM devices are known for. Until then, I am forced to use the BB Pearl (a great phone that gets email &amp; NEVER locks up!) along with my 3+ year old Dell Axim x50v. I stick w/ Pocket PC mainly for PI, Laridian PocketBible, &amp; Pocket Quicken.

[starstreak]

This debate is not pointless, but you hit it right on the nose. Everything nowdays should be at VGA. But most companies don't want to release a phone that costs $800+. And only a small number of people would bay $500 for a very good PDA. I'm one who would buy it, but many people balk when a phone cost more than $200. And thats a problem. Way before when a good computer was $3k as a norm, people would buy a $500 pda because it sounded "right". Now when a suped up hoe pc can be built for under $2000, and cheap computers under $600, who would believe a $800 is worth it? And thats the problem

All this debate about VGA is really depressing. Comments like "There aren't that many out there yet", or "VGA devices are slow", or "When graphics acceleration comes...". Seriously, this is why I'm moving away from the platform. In 2004 I bought a graphics accelerated VGA devlce call the HP 4700. It was not slow. The battery life was (still is) great. At the same time Dell released a 640x480 accelerated device called the x50v. It also was not slow.

Here it is 4 years later (an eternity in computer time) and things seem to have taken a step backwards rather than forward. After 4 years all HP can bring is a re-hashed 4700 with a new OS image, a bit more RAM and from what I can tell NO video acceleration. The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous - especially in the post iPhone era. If you have ever owned a VGA device, or used one to surf the web or read an ebook, you'd never want to go back. Or better yet pickup an iPhone or iPod Touch (320x480 - 2x qvga), surf the web, and then tell me that 230x320 is good enough.

[SteveHoward999]

All this debate about VGA is really depressing.... In 2004 I bought a graphics accelerated VGA devlce call the HP 4700. It was not slow. The battery life was (still is) great. At the same time Dell released a 640x480 accelerated device called the x50v. It also was not slow.
....
Here it is 4 years later (an eternity in computer time) and things seem to have taken a step backwards rather than forward. After 4 years all HP can bring is a re-hashed 4700 with a new OS image, a bit more RAM and from what I can tell NO video acceleration.

Exactly.

The only significant standard hardware advances have been never-ending efforts to squeeze more and more radio devices into the handsets (tv, digital tv, FM, GPRS, EDGE, Wi-Fi, BlueTooth, HSDPA etc etc etc etc), with next to nothing done to improve the user experience. We can thank the iPhone for kicking the industry up the arse in that respect.

But the base PDA hardware is no better than it was 4 years ago. In computing terms, that is a lifetime and it is shocking.

Thankfully, it seems clear that manufacturers are on a new charge in terms of screen and interface technology. I'm in the market for a new device, but I am going to happily wait it out for a year or so to see what we end up with once all the 800x480 touch-screen devices are on the market ... :-)

[Duncan]

I have never seen a screen used in such a way. I can only think of one reason that I would adjust my text to the smallest font possible, then zoom it out again, and that is to exaggerate the pixels, because I couldn't do it in a real world everyday use....Why do you want to make something very small then expand it again, in that way?

Because at that zoom level VGA is usable and QVGA isn't. When I last had VGA I used text on maximum zoom/smallest size all the time, which I can't with QVGA.

Why is this so hard to grasp? It's a perfectly sensible and useful comparison to make.

Your attempts to suggest the guy is doing something dodgy is somewhat unfair and a little unpleasant.

How can you look at the picture of the small text that has then been zoomed out and not think that a new user would think this is how text normally looks on QVGA and it is totally unreadable.

By assuming that potential new users aren't stupid and can read?

....just give people real world info and let them make the right choice for themselves.

Real world info - such as the fact that you can read text at the smallest sized on VGA, meaning more information can be read on the screen, but not on QVGA. If you aren't telling/showing people this when you advise them - then you are doing them a disservice. It was certainly what sold me on VGA originally.

[Paragon]

Your attempts to suggest the guy is doing something dodgy is somewhat unfair and a little unpleasant.

I don't mean to imply anything was done intentionally. My apologies for coming across that way.

[Duncan]

Your attempts to suggest the guy is doing something dodgy is somewhat unfair and a little unpleasant.

I don't mean to imply anything was done intentionally. My apologies for coming across that way.

That's cool - easily done and all that.

I just don't get why you seem to reject that being able to show more text on a VGA screen, by being able to use a smaller font size, is a fair advantage to point out in a comparison with QVGA.

[Paragon]

I don't have a problem with VGA showing more text. That is one of its strong points. It is the manipulated QVGA shot that is misleading....shrinking the font size then zooming it is the problem. In effect showing QVGA on VGA real estate is never going to work nor is it realstic

[markvan]

What it ultimately comes down to is personal preference and what you want to get out of your Pocket PC.

Personally I want as much screen realestate as I can get from my Pocket PC, and VGA (and now WVGA) screens give this to me.

Anyone you has a VGA screen should try out a package like http://www.jaml.com/MvRTrueVGA/ and see if it makes their Pocket PC experience better.

Not everyone will like it, but if you are like me, you could never go back to QVGA.

Cheers
Mark

[starstreak]

Unless I read the pictures wrong, he did NOT pick a smaller font size like 5 or 4pts. He was probsbly using 8-10pt. which SHOULD be a good size font. WHat he did was zoom out, to prove that you can view a full page(close to) text thats readable (granted, if you had good eyes) with VGA. So besides making everyday windows work better with clearer text and fonts, it opens up more possibilites.


I don't have a problem with VGA showing more text. That is one of its strong points. It is the manipulated QVGA shot that is misleading....shrinking the font size then zooming it is the problem. In effect showing QVGA on VGA real estate is never going to work nor is it realstic

[Mikey]

320x320 problem is that the screen is smaller than most normal wm systems. so even though the fonts are readable, area will still still be tight.

The Dell Axim x50v with the Pocket Informant Month View w/ mini text is why I hated the Cingular 8125 &amp; Treo 750 w/ 240x240. Maybe 320x320 will be OK. If the Treo will come out with enough memory, I will switch, just hate all the locking up that WM devices are known for. Until then, I am forced to use the BB Pearl (a great phone that gets email &amp; NEVER locks up!) along with my 3+ year old Dell Axim x50v. I stick w/ Pocket PC mainly for PI, Laridian PocketBible, &amp; Pocket Quicken.

I remember thinking the Samsung i730 was awesome when it came out due to the # of pixels in such a small area. Too bad they never made a GSM version / Cingular/AT&amp;T never offered that phone. I think a 320x320 would be a lot better than 240x240 currently available, almost enough to switch to the Palm platform just to get good resolution. Guess that's why there are so many phones, due to all the differing opinions... Pixel count aside, I think Apple's iPHONE success proves my point that 240x240 Palm Treo's are way outdated as are the lack of WM VGA devices!!!

[netboy]

It is the manipulated QVGA shot that is misleading....shrinking the font size then zooming it is the problem. In effect showing QVGA on VGA real estate is never going to work nor is it realstic

y dont u do a manipulate, and show me VGA is junk/garbage compares to QVGA!

[Mikey]

All this debate about VGA is really depressing...

RIGHT ON JohnM!!!

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[Tanker Bob]

VGA and replaceable batteries are the main reason I switched from Palm to PPC several years ago. I find VGA indispensable. My old Palm T3 looked way better than any QVGA device even today. I just upgraded from my Dell X50v to an iPAQ 211 to get the newer OS, extra memory, and better WiFi support. Moving to a QVGA device was never an option. I'd be soldering a new battery into my T3 today if that was the only option.

I find the argument that QVGA is "good enough" humorous. That's exactly equivalent to arguing that no one needs more than 800x600 on a PC. Your display is your primary, if not only, interface to the device. It literally gets in your face every time you turn the PDA on. I think it's unconscionable that the majority of PDAs and SmartPhones are still using a display resolution that's over 10 years old. Batteries and CPUs have improved more than enough over that period to accommodate more modern displays.

If people like QVGA on their handhelds and 800x600 on their desktops, then that's their free choice. The world and technology has moved on, though.

[Mikey]

If people like QVGA on their handhelds and 800x600 on their desktops, then that's their free choice. The world and technology has moved on, though.

AMEN Again!!! On a different note, how long will the 3+ year old 624 processor &amp; 2700 graphics accelerator be top of the line???

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[ricoks]

For me, I would love to see a hybrid of a N810 with that of a tilt would be ideal. The screen and usable size/shape of the N810 combined with the keyboard and tilt of the AT&amp;T Tilt would be a really good fit in phone/internet device.
I dont understand why all these MIDs are coming out, better battery, better processor, a LOT nicer look (some of them) and there is no mention of phone use, and they're using Linux - MAN, we need some serious innovation in WM6.1 devices and WM7 needs to come FAST!!!
I really love the real estate the HTC Advantage gives you, but they are getting harder and harder to get, and they aren't cheap. The screen is incredible, but it's a tad too large for phone use. One thing for sure, is that WM needs to get away from 4:3 screens. WVGA seems to be the best for these type devices. Look at the response to the X1 - EVERYONE seems to be in awe, love, etc over this device, cause it's the first one to take the screen to a new 'wide' level. And the X1 is only, what, 3" ??

Sorry this is so long, but i really am looking for a device that fills the gap between my blackjack smartphone, and the UMPCs that wont last any longer than a standard laptop.
Ever since i 'lost' my hx4700 :cry: I've been looking for a replacement.
This is, of coarse, my opinion based on my use, but i'm hoping '08 is the year of the WM REVOLUTION :D

Ricoks

[yildi]

Hi,
One year ago I had to choose a converged device for professional reasons: I have replaced my 4" VGA HX4700 with a Hermes with 3" screen. I have installed the software I was happy to use on HX4700 on Hermes but a year later I can say that I never use them since I find it painful on Hermes's small screen and low definition. I have now a phone but I do not have anymore a PDA. Have I really converged? If yes, to what? ;-)

Yes, I would like to have a VGA phone device with a decent keyboard...

Best regards,

Murat

[Mikey]

Hi,
One year ago I had to choose a converged device for professional reasons: I have replaced my 4" VGA HX4700 with a Hermes with 3" screen. I have installed the software I was happy to use on HX4700 on Hermes but a year later I can say that I never use them since I find it painful on Hermes's small screen and low definition. I have now a phone but I do not have anymore a PDA. Have I really converged? If yes, to what? ;-)

Yes, I would like to have a VGA phone device with a decent keyboard...

Best regards,

Murat

I agree, which is why I can't converge. Obviously the manufacturers &amp; service provoders don't read sites like this one, or don't care. Unfortunately, most of the time, this site &amp; others send the wrong message, rating these devices we are complaining about with 4-5 Stars. Until more people boycott devices like the Treo 750 or the Tilt, we deserve what they give us. I do not plan on renewing my Pocket PC Mag subsciption because of its watered down content meant for the masses. Pocket PC's are just OK nowadays. Nothing new anymore, since the iPAQ 4700 &amp; Dell Axim x50v. How long has it been wince something innovative came out? And I'm not talking about FM or GPS on a device, the iPHONE is innovation. Seeing Google Earth on an iPHONE or the voicemail app or the screen or the fact that it doesn't lock up, etc. Come on WM!

[Jonathon Watkins]

After you've had a Dell Axim x50v, it's nearly impossible to go to a non-VGA...

I did - from a X50v to an O2 orbit. I lived to tell the tale. :wink: (Though I do miss VGA :? )

[Menneisyys]

Having owned a 4700 with VGA I really miss it and the 2795 I use now is QVGA. QVGA is acceptable but not as nice to look at. I plan on buying the new 210 (or whatever the right number is) later this year and the main reason is the VGA screen.

I'd rate it a nice to have until it comes time to buy, then it morphs into a must have. :devilboy:

At MWC, I had the chance to play with the HP 214. I was disappointed:

- it doesn't have the same screen than the hx4700 (this has also been confirmed by the HP rep there). Its color reproduction is FAR inferior to that of the hx4700. Fortunately, at least it seems not to have problems with the landscape polarization (unlike with the x50v / x51v).
- it feels really cheap (pasticy) in the hand - FAR worse than the hx4700.
- it's considerably thicker than the hx4700.

All in all, it was a disappointment for me. I hoped for something that is better than the hx4700 not only internally, but also externally (and have a screen of at least the same quality &amp; contrast &amp; color reproduction).

[Menneisyys]

That video is so wrong. It'll be hard to show it on a "you tube" type video. Everything is blurry. The X800 is a bad example of pointing out how "slow" having a VGA screen. From the start, the X800 is SLOW pda. Any way you look at the device. It was said by everybody who owned one. VGA WILL slow down the device, but alot of that was due to the unit being used. And as more and more pdas come out with dedicated GPUs, this will be a mute point.

Its like saying the windows mobile 6 crappy because it pauses and won't pickup all the screen taps on a TILT mobile phone. Its the TILT thats bad. WM6 wasn't at fault.

He should've showed the calender view of agenda with it showing text. Its soo much useable vs a qvga screen.

Again, commenting that the VGA was crappier because its not as bright is the fault of the X800. Not all VGA screens are dimmer. If it was a FACT, then all monitors for homes (which is made the same way) is going to be dimmer the higher the resolution. And that is not the case.

100% agreed.

1. first, the Sony LCD in the iPAQ hx4700, HTC Universal and the Pocket Loox 710/718/720 (they all share the same high-quality screen) is WAY better, color repreoduction- and constrast-wise than ANY QVGA screen.

2. the video drew generic conclusions on VGA's speed "only" based on how the E-Ten device behaved. Should have they tested a Dell Axim x50v / x51v instead, they wouldn't have seen so big differences in scrolling / zooming.

3. finally, battery consumption. Many think a VGA device consumes WAY more power than a QVGA one just because of the 4 times more pixels to move around. It's just not true. I've made quite a lot power benchmarks on both QVGA and VGA devices in a fully comparable manner and I've found out most VGA devices don't have a much worse battery life than QVGA ones. Take, for example, the iPAQ hx4700 or the Pocket Loox 720. (OK, the Dell Axim x50v / x51v already has a crappy 1100 mAh battery so let's forget about it in this comparison.) They both have stellar battery life.

[Menneisyys]

Since they already have GPUs in the newest pdas, I wouldn't worry about it.


GPUs are worthless unless it is supported by software. My O2 Flame (VGA) being a good example with the Nvidia GoForce 5500 GPU. It looks beautiful on a spec sheet but untill Coreplayer (or any other player) supports it, why have it?

He meant hardware-based bit blitting and similar functionality. For example, in the Dell Axim x50v / x51v, most graphics-intensive stuff (games, emulators etc) run at least with half the speed as on QVGA devices (I've made a LOT of benchmarks - see my games reviews - and I do know what I'm speaking about.) Not so with the non-GPU-enabled Universal, hx4700 (OK, this device does have an old ATI GPU but it doesn't result in any kind of a speed improvement) or Pocket Loox 720.

All in all, more advanced GPU's do speed up gaming / zooming / scrolling. The living examples are the Dell Axim x50v and the x51v.

[Menneisyys]

I don't se a wide NEED for it. I'm quit certain that if you polled the millions and millions of mobile devices users and asked them what VGA is, not many outside of forums such as this would know or care about VGA, or wish the cost of their device be increased to support it.

Dave

just because people dont know better doesnt mean there is no need for VGA! and if u show a pdaphone to millions and millions of people, they will ask "is that a iphone?" just cus the phone got a touchscreen on it!

Not just that, but Microsoft has crippled the advantage of VGA since forever by insisting on scaling things instead of giving as a real VGA experience. For most native applications there realy is no advantage to VGA other than crisper text.

I better comparisson for this video would have been to compare the amount of data presented on screen with MS Fake VGA vs Real VGA. Those of us who love VGA already know and accept the performance hits of Real VGA, because we have different priorities. Compare Excel in VGA vs QVGA for instance.

I absolutely agree that the delay in Internet Explorer is frustrating. But then again, I remember lunchtime at school, spending 15 minutes loading Space Invaders from a cassette tape on a Comadore PET in 1980 ...

Don't forget it's a 2.8" screen... you'll hardly ever want to use native VGA on such small a screen... a iPAQ hx4700 / 214 / the Advantage/Athena are different beasts, of course.

[Menneisyys]

that video missing the most important part!
where is the remote desktop client comparsion?
remote desktop in VGA just like you looking at your home monitor!
remote desktop in QVGA is like blocking 75% of the screen monitor!, and u really cant do much with it!

mobilyazilar's blog shows this.

I've used GoToMyPC with my E830. I can run it at 1024x768 resolution and do almost everything I need to do easily with only the occasional need to zoom in to full-scale.

I'ver also posted several screenshots in my Remote Desktop Access Bible, comparing QVGA and VGA rendering.

[Menneisyys]

I'm not trying to put down QVGA either. It is better in terms of battery life and speed.


But not THAT much. Onm a cleverly-designed device with a capable GPU (like the x50v / x51v), you won't see the difference most of the time.

[Menneisyys]

I had a VGA-screen device and said I'd never go back.

You know what? I went back.

Probably because most (all?) newer devices are all QVGA-only and there aren't real, up-to-date replacements for the 2-3-year-old "big" names? ;) That is, you WERE forced to go back to QVGA to have something newer.

[Menneisyys]

i-mate 9502, SE Experia X1, E-ten V900, Gsmart MS808 - not sure which it will be yet, but I'm counting the days.

My personal preference list, after playing with some of these devices at MWC, is as follows:

1. Gsmart MS808 (pros: up-to-date, PXA310 CPU - not the old PXA270 as in the 9502; DVB-T and H; might be able to fully record phone conversations; cons: hard to purchase in Europe)
1. V900 (pros: a new and pretty advanced Samsung chipset; DVB-T and H; cons: build quality issues(? this was the case with older models))

2. i-mate 9502 (cons: old PXA270; pretty much useless thumbboard; pros: not THAT bad)


I still can't list the X1 in here because it's still not known what it will have (video / 3D drivers, for example), how it will behave etc.

[Menneisyys]

In 2004 I bought a graphics accelerated VGA devlce call the HP 4700. It was not slow. The battery life was (still is) great. At the same time Dell released a 640x480 accelerated device called the x50v. It also was not slow.

Here it is 4 years later (an eternity in computer time) and things seem to have taken a step backwards rather than forward. After 4 years all HP can bring is a re-hashed 4700 with a new OS image, a bit more RAM and from what I can tell NO video acceleration. The fact that this is even a debate is ridiculous - especially in the post iPhone era. If you have ever owned a VGA device, or used one to surf the web or read an ebook, you'd never want to go back. Or better yet pickup an iPhone or iPod Touch (320x480 - 2x qvga), surf the web, and then tell me that 230x320 is good enough.

1. the video acceleration of the hx4700 and the x50v isn't comaprable. The latter is definitely faster at everyday tasks (NOT only at 3D!) like emulation / gaming /scrolling.

2. the HP 214 does have a video accelerator - AFAIK, it's just an ATI GPU, just like with the hx4700 - if they don't use the built-in accelerator / bit blitter facilities of the PXA310. That is, it won't be slower than the hx4700, I'm absolutely sure. (Again, remember that the hx4700 WAS slow at gaming, unlike QVGA devices or the VGA Dells.)

[netboy]

3. finally, battery consumption. Many think a VGA device consumes WAY more power than a QVGA one just because of the 4 times more pixels to move around. It's just not true.

some people do believe if you put 1 person in a room, it use less energy from light bult, but if u put 4 people in a room, the light bult will use more energy! haha

[Menneisyys]

1. V900 (pros: a new and pretty advanced Samsung chipset; DVB-T and H; cons: build quality issues(? this was the case with older models))


Note that I've thoroughly elaborated on the capabilities of the new Samsung chipset in the V900 at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=449858 - DEFINITELY worth a read.

[wseto]

I have never seen a screen used in such a way. I can only think of one reason that I would adjust my text to the smallest font possible, then zoom it out again, and that is to exaggerate the pixels, because I couldn't do it in a real world everyday use....Why do you want to make something very small then expand it again, in that way?

If you really want to see what small font looks like on a QVGA device then click on the thumbnail below. It shows a page using ereader, set at it's smallest font (7 point). It looks very readable to me, even considering the poor photograph. Nothing like the other image shown. It is not as crisp as VGA though....but I think it is a much fairer representaion

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/5615/qvgagq0.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qvgagq0.jpg)

Dave

You've obviously never tried to edit or view formatted-for-business MS Word or Excel documents on your QVGA Pocket PC then. I do this quite often and QVGA is a pain in the butt, having to constantly scroll left and right. VGA would be better, but the higher res 720x480 WVGA screens would be best.... however they are a bit large.

IMHO you're the one manipulating things with your example.

I can't really see how eReader is equivalent to Pocket Word. You've purposely chosen an app that reformats the original document to flow better for reading. Word CANNOT and SHOULD NOT do that else the layout of the page gets bunged up.

Definitely on a 2.8" screen, VGA is probably not that much better since the pixels will be TINY, but on a 3.2" or 3.5" screen, I'd definitely go for one. I can only hope that HTC or one of the other WM OEM's would build a WM phone with similar to iPhone specs including accelerated graphics DRIVERS.

[Jason Dunn]

I find the argument that QVGA is "good enough" humorous. That's exactly equivalent to arguing that no one needs more than 800x600 on a PC.

It's not exactly a fair comparison - I run two 24" monitors, 1920 x 1200 resolution each, so believe me when I say that I'm a BIG believer in the value of high resolution displays.

But...

If having these displays meant that my PC had to be 2x a big, and the graphics performance of my displays were sluggish and slow...I'd probably have stuck with my dual 20" monitors at 1600 x 1200. High-resolution is GREAT but not if it comes with a lot of baggage.

When I was in Amsterdam I was sitting across the dinner table from John Wang, one of the head guys at HTC, and we had a great conversation about VGA devices. I'm going to see if I can interview him and maybe his perspective will help explain why we haven't seen more VGA devices from HTC.

If people like QVGA on their handhelds and 800x600 on their desktops, then that's their free choice. The world and technology has moved on, though.

But it really hasn't - there are far more brand new QVGA devices shipping every month than VGA devices. VGA devices are in the minority.

[Paragon]

IMHO you're the one manipulating things with your example.

Geez.....I manipulated nothing. In an attempt to show what small text actually looks like on a 2.8" QVGA screen, I simply opened an an app that shows lots of text, set it to its smallest font size and took a picture of it....a very poor quality picture, which I did nothing to improve its quality. I then posted it in ACTUAL size, to show that small font is not distorted to the point it is in the photos....that's it!

You know.....I saw a few pictures that I knew that potential new users would find confusing and took time out of my day to try to point this out, nothing more. For that I've gotten nothing but flack from a few of you for it. Argue amongst yourselves from this point on. I'm moving on.

Dave

[netboy]

If people like QVGA on their handhelds and 800x600 on their desktops, then that's their free choice. The world and technology has moved on, though.

But it really hasn't - there are far more brand new QVGA devices shipping every month than VGA devices. VGA devices are in the minority.


of course there far more brand new QVGA coming out then VGA when "some" people think QVGA is good enought! i'm sure QVGA panels is cheaper too! meaning they make more money selling QVGA then VGA!
i just dont understand all the raves on Tytn II, or Touch cruise, if it' QVGA, i'm not interested! PERIOD!

[Jason Dunn]

By all means, let the discussion continue, but please try to limit your quoting of other messages to a few lines - remember that people with mobile devices are accessing these forums, and when you quote a 40-line message and put one line of your own at the bottom, that's really irritating on a mobile device. :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

Geez.....I manipulated nothing. In an attempt to show what small text actually looks like on a 2.8" QVGA screen, I simply opened an an app that shows lots of text, set it to its smallest font size and took a picture of it....

I understand the point you were trying to make Dave. :mrgreen:

[Duncan]

2. i-mate 9502 (cons: old PXA270;

The PDF spec sheet says it has a '400 MHz Qualcomm MSM 7200' CPU. Confirmed by this: http://www.ultimates.biz/uploads/newbb/72_47b36ab574a0d.jpg

[Menneisyys]

2. i-mate 9502 (cons: old PXA270;

The PDF spec sheet says it has a '400 MHz Qualcomm MSM 7200' CPU. Confirmed by this: http://www.ultimates.biz/uploads/newbb/72_47b36ab574a0d.jpg

You're right, I've mixed this up - the x502 models are Qualcomm-, the x550 models are PXA270-based.

This means the 9502 is a better buy than I've originally thought. Apart from the sub-par (analogue) video (TV) output, in which the 8150 (XGA digital VGA output) is way better.

[Mikey]

But it really hasn't - there are far more brand new QVGA devices shipping every month than VGA devices. VGA devices are in the minority.

Jason, I think what our point is that we know &amp; agree the world has concluded that VGA is unnecessary, BUT our opinion is that VGA &amp; faster processors ought to be more available 3 years after the HP 4700 &amp; Dell Axim x50v came out. Heck, Apple is still innovative with the iPHONE. Where's the innovation from WM, without mentioning GPS dumbed down slow phones or WM phones with an FM receiver so you can play the radio, who needs that?

Blackberry is still king of email because they are innovative with continuing to improve their products AND their phones work without constant lockups or delays. I for one, do not feel the new iPAQ 210 is much better than my Axim x50v, in some areas, not as good. How is this possible, &amp; why are more of the die hard community like this website not raising more of a stink? Perhaps it is true that only about 2,000+/- people who come to your site, myself included, are the only ones who would pay $500+ for a powerful VGA AT&amp;T subsidized device, with enough memory to avoid constant lockups. Who knows... but I think we all agree that there are very few new VGA devices coming out, that was not the point of most of the posts IMHO, the point is we have a problem that so few powerful / VGA devices come out each year.

[Duncan]

the point is we have a problem that so few powerful / VGA devices come out each year.

Far fewer than QVGA, yes, but upcoming or recently released VGA and WVGA devices:

Gigabyte GSmart MS808
Gigabyte GSmart i350
Gigabyte GSmart t600

E-TEN Glofiish X500+
E-TEN Glofiish E800
E-TEN Glofiish M900
E-TEN Glofiish V900
E-TEN Glofiish X650

HTC Advantage 7500 (and branded versions)
HTC Advantage 7510 (and branded versions)

I-Mate Ultimate 6150
I-Mate Ultimate 8150
I-Mate Ultimate 9502

HP iPAQ 200

Amoi N800

O2 XDA Flame

Toshiba Portege G900
Toshiba Portege G910
Toshiba Portege G920

Sony Ericsson Xperia X1

Innovations include new and better processors, digital TV, improved keyboard arrangements, more advanced GPS, new UIs etc, Wide VGA.

So though VGA is still a lot less common that QVGA, the choice of advanced VGA models is actually wider than it has ever been. Indeed - most of the biggest names, Toshiba, HP, I-Mate and Sony Ericsson, are all pushing VGA or WVGA models as their flagship devices. Even HTC has obviously seen the Advantage as successful enough to release an update.

[Mikey]

the point is we have a problem that so few powerful / VGA devices come out each year.

So though VGA is still a lot less common that QVGA, the choice of advanced VGA models is actually wider than it has ever been. Indeed - most of the biggest names, Toshiba, HP, I-Mate and Sony Ericsson, are all pushing VGA or WVGA models as their flagship devices. Even HTC has obviously seen the Advantage as successful enough to release an update.

I'd like to see you carry the Advantage as a phone. Taking one line out of context, what I's like to see is a subsidized phone from the big carriers like the phones you mentioned above.

[Duncan]

I'd like to see you carry the Advantage as a phone.

I wouldn't - but then there are plenty of alternatives.

Taking one line out of context, what I's like to see is a subsidized phone from the big carriers like the phones you mentioned above.

I didn't take one line out of context. I quoted the line you said summarised your point:

the point is we have a problem that so few powerful / VGA devices come out each year

Subsidies from phone companies are another matter. Generally phone companies will subsidise those devices that meet their customers' needs. Cameras, GPS, keyboards, email, SMS, MMS etc. - these are what the majority of the billions who buy mobiles want. VGA is not high on most mobile customers' needs - so VGA devices are usually sold to a smaller market unsubsidised. That won't change any time soon.

That said - I-Mate have a deal with Telstra in Australia, HTC have their Advantage with several companies, O2 have the XDA Flame and the Xperia X1 will no doubt be available with phone companies everywhere.

[netboy]

Cameras, GPS, keyboards, email, SMS, MMS etc. - these are what the majority of the billions who buy mobiles want. VGA is not high on most mobile customers' needs - so VGA devices are usually sold to a smaller market unsubsidised. That won't change any time soon.


50 years ago, millions of people are buying Black and White TV, i guess people want/love B&amp;W tv?
10 years ago, all cellphones are BIG AS BRICK! i guess people love cellphones big as BRICK?

[Duncan]

50 years ago, millions of people are buying Black and White TV, i guess people want/love B&amp;W tv?
10 years ago, all cellphones are BIG AS BRICK! i guess people love cellphones big as BRICK?

You're rather missing the point - which is that the features that consumers are demanding, and using (thus providing revenue to the phone companies), are cameras, GPS, keyboards, email, SMS, MMS, music playing etc.

There is no great demand for VGA, as VGA doesn't notably improve any of those features. Hardly anyone is going into phone stores and saying 'I want a high resolution device'. It's 'I want cameras' or 'can it play music' etc.

Even for those who want to watch films - in general people are perfectly happy with the HVGA iPhone and QVGA WM devices for that (and, frankly, there isn't much value in encoding a movie at VGA rather than QVGA on a small screen anyway).

The value in colour TV over black and white is obvious and clear to all. The same for smaller phones that are easy to carry. Outside of business people, or tech geeks, how do you sell VGA to them?

Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of VGA. My next PPC will be VGA. I just can't see any pressing reason for phone companies to get behind VGA right now - when the things that are driving mobile phone adoption don't need VGA.

Now when the Xperia X1 is released, then we may see more VGA devices from phone companies in it's wake.

[Menneisyys]

O2 XDA Flame

BTW, speaking of the Flame, I asked the O2 folks at Barcelona about the long-promised Flame 2. Nothing is known as yet...

[wseto]

Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of VGA. My next PPC will be VGA. I just can't see any pressing reason for phone companies to get behind VGA right now - when the things that are driving mobile phone adoption don't need VGA.


The fact that Apple has sold more iPhones at more than $300 a pop than all the WM phones put together since it came out SAYS something to the phone companies. It may be the slick interface, the slimness, the nearly indestructable screen, the great battery run time, fast video performance or the higher resolution screen... or all of them put together. The age of the low res screen in a "high end" phone is over because the bar has been raised... maybe not to VGA standards yet, it's only half VGA, but QVGA doesn't cut it anymore.

Also note that your average touch screen WM phones aren't the low end "free" phones.

BTW I'm about the farthest from an Apple freak as one can get, I have owned NO apple products, but have owned several pocket pc's, two MS Smartphones and two WM QVGA touchscreen phones, but appreciate how the iPhone is not only well engineered hardware wise, but how well the software and its UI are integrated as well... especially compared to my WM6 Sprint Mogul.

[Mikey]

The fact that Apple has sold more iPhones at more than $300 a pop than all the WM phones put together since it came out SAYS something to the phone companies. It may be the slick interface, the slimness, the nearly indestructable screen, the great battery run time, fast video performance or the higher resolution screen... or all of them put together. The age of the low res screen in a "high end" phone is over because the bar has been raised... maybe not to VGA standards yet, it's only half VGA, but QVGA doesn't cut it anymore.

Also note that your average touch screen WM phones aren't the low end "free" phones.

BTW I'm about the farthest from an Apple freak as one can get, I have owned NO apple products, but have owned several pocket pc's, two MS Smartphones and two WM QVGA touchscreen phones, but appreciate how the iPhone is not only well engineered hardware wise, but how well the software and its UI are integrated as well... especially compared to my WM6 Sprint Mogul.

I agree with all that wseto &amp; others have said in this post. My point is that Apple raised the bar with HVGA. IMO, all WM phones like the Treo 750 &amp; the Tilt are high end phones. I think WM developers should take heed to the iPHONE. I also think carriers should subsidize a great WM phone that doesn't lock up. That phone would be either:
- Treo design w/ at least 256 mb of RAM &amp; ROM, at least 624 processor, at least 2000 mah battery, at least 320x320 screen, OS that works without locking up, email that works &amp; is as easy to set up for the common folk as Blackberry Web Client (not the aftermarket add-on like was available for the Nokia E62, it would NOT sync with BB very well)... OR
- Tilt design w/ at least the specs above... OR
- Samsung i730 design w/ at least the specs above.

On a side note, Thanks to Duncan for putting together that exhaustive list of current &amp; soon-to-be released VGA phones. Anyone know how well ETEN's devices last? I've owned several Blackberries, &amp; currently use the Pearl, &amp; none of them has ever quit, I just got tired of them. I also have carried a Dell Axim x50v since it came out, as it replaced the iPAQ h5550. Thanks again to Duncan for the list &amp; reminding me that there are devices out there.

[Mikey]

Oh, &amp; on the other two devices, instead of the 320x320 screen, at least HVGA, but preferably VGA. Sorry for the moittance on the previous post.

[Mikey]

[quote="wseto"]

The fact that Apple has sold more iPhones at more than $300 a pop than all the WM phones put together since it came out SAYS something to the phone companies.

REMEMBER: Apple sold a ton of iPHONE's in the 1st weekend at $500 a pop if I remember correctly. People were camping out to pay $500 due to how great that phone is.

When was the last time someone camped out for a WM phone because of how oftne it locks up or how mediocre the screen is or how archaic the music player is...? That's my point!

WM phones just get by &amp; stopped innovating about 3 years ago IMO. They, like Palm, were on top, only to lose to Apple &amp; others because they began to settle...

[Mikey]

Duncan &amp; others...

After reviewing the ETEN 800, it has several things missing that I really want in a HIGH END device:

1) 624 or faster processor
2) missing a typing keypad like either the Tilt or the Samsung i730
3) still quite a bit thicker than the iPHONE considering the form factor is the same with no keyboard
4) OK battery at 1530, but for $600, oughtta be at least 2000+
5) 64 mb RAM???? Come on!!!! Another website noted that this stifled performance.

Is there a device out there that meets the above problems? &amp; also, how good are ETEN devices on long lasting? Thanks, Mike

[netboy]

There is no great demand for VGA, as VGA doesn't notably improve any of those features. Hardly anyone is going into phone stores and saying 'I want a high resolution device'. It's 'I want cameras' or 'can it play music' etc.


just because most people dont know anything about VGA or there is VGA pdaphone avail, this DOES NOT means there is no demand for it!
do u see people asking about ColorTV 50 years ago?
or did u see people asking about "do u have any cellphone half the size?" 10 yeas ago?

[Mikey]

I do agree with Netboy, the public didn't know it wanted an iPHONE or an iPOD for that matter, until it came out. HVGA on a tilt sized screen would be awesome as would 320x320 on a Treo. I believe these ought to be minimums nowadays. I also believe that WM should solve the locing up problems by mandating OR at least encouraging at least one major carrier to put out a phone that works. As it stands, I do not trust WM as a phone after owning the Cingular 8125 &amp; the Treo 750. Just my 2 cents!

[wmm]

Duncan &amp; others...

After reviewing the ETEN 800, it has several things missing that I really want in a HIGH END device:

1) 624 or faster processor
2) missing a typing keypad like either the Tilt or the Samsung i730
3) still quite a bit thicker than the iPHONE considering the form factor is the same with no keyboard
4) OK battery at 1530, but for $600, oughtta be at least 2000+
5) 64 mb RAM???? Come on!!!! Another website noted that this stifled performance.

I'm not quite in the same boat for what I'm looking for. In particular, I don't want a hardware keyboard; I never use the one on my Cingular 8525, so from my perspective a keyboard just takes up unnecessary space/volume.

My list includes VGA, decent speed, and quad-band GSM/tri-band 3G connectivity, along with no keyboard (i.e., small package). (I had counted the X800 out because of early reports that it was a real dog in video speed, but recent postings indicate that using the newest ROM image and not installing the default bloatware make it perform quite well. I am disappointed with the 64MB RAM, but that's not a total deal-breaker for me.)

As far as I've been able to tell, there are only two currently-shipping devices that meet these criteria: the Eten X800 and the I-mate Ultimate 6150. The X800 has GPS and is about $100 cheaper, but it only has 64MB of RAM; the 6150 has video out instead of GPS and 128MB, but costs more. Although I would use the video out occasionally, the GPS would be more often useful, so I'm tending to favor the X800 at the moment.

Are there any others that are currently shipping or will very soon (that eliminates the SE Experia X1, which is too far away and will probably cost too much anyway) that meet these criteria? Any tips on things I've overlooked would be welcome.

[netboy]

Eten x800 advertised as triband 3.5G hsdpa, but u will only get regular 3G umts speed at 384k!
Imate 9150 should be out in March or April. VGA, 128mb ram, build-in GPS, tri-band hsdpa, and keyboard.

[JamesS]

I too swore I’d never leave VGA.. and then bought a Tytn II.

Now I love my Tytn II dearly but really miss VGA, particularly for web browsing and Pocket Informant / Plan Maker / Text Maker.

In 12-15 months when I look to upgrade I’ll be looking for the same specs in terms of good-sized RAM, slide-out keyboard, tilt screen (love that), GPS, HSDPA, wi-fi and bluetooth. BUT would like bigger screen area, WVGA, faster CPU (it can be sluggish), decent GPU, longer battery life, and smaller / lighter device. And a 60Gb hard disk would be nice so I don’t need my ipod.

Not too much to ask is it?

[Mikey]

And a 60Gb hard disk would be nice so I don’t need my ipod.

Not too much to ask is it?

60 GB HD??? Now you're dreaming, who do you think MS is... Apple? People don't want or need VGA or even 1GB or a device that has enough power to avoid constant lock-ups or a good battery...

[Cybrid]

yepp. Win Mobile in its current incarnation doesn't support more than 16bit colours. You can use screens that support more, but the OS will only address 16bit coulors. Incorrect.
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/09/07/462187.aspx
The cons would be slower processing and resulting lower battery life. Plus a cost increase. If an OEM chose to, it could go to 24 bit color.

On the rest of the topic.
Personally I intended to go converged from the X50v (3.5" VGA) to the Apache (2.8" QVGA) and found I hated it. Incredibly so. I remain semi-convergent with the HTC Touch and X50v.

Overall the font/ text argument seems overblown to me simply because on a VGA screen. IT is waay too small. It may be legible to many others but I cannot forsee myself living with needing a magnifying glass every time I decide to read. The real importance of VGA for me personally is the multimedia.
View a VGA sized photo on QVGA and you either scroll or zoom out. View a QVGA sized photo on a VGA device and you get a tiny pic that really illustrates the advantage of VGA or zoom in to view a pixelated picture.
The effect is also present on movies. VGA wins.
Admittedly this is not scientific in any way since I do not have two devices with similarly sized screens but there is a notable quality difference. Sorry Dave.

As to iPhone:
This is a 520 Mhz device with 128 Mb RAM (approx 8 Mb reserved for GPU?). Take a Toshiba e-830, add a 32Gb CF card, purchase a pretty VGA icon theme pack from say...Juno (http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/sp/iphonelandscape.html) and really what advantage does the iPhone have?
The accelerometer...yes...innovative...yes. This helps with battery life too since Jobs is right. You don't need the screen on when its next to your face or in your pocket.
A decent browser...yes... again not insurmountable...even surpassable.

Ease of use? Gimme a break. That came at the expense on multifunctionality. NO slots. No useable BT profiles other than a simple headset? http://www.myitablet.com/iphones-bluetooth-is-dumb-purposely-crippled-or-both-151188.php
No lotsa things.

The iPhone is the pretty blonde you meet at the party and have some fun with. Imagine being married to her 8O

PS I just bought an 8 Gb micro SD card for that Touch!

[Mikey]

[quote=yet_another_guest]

The real importance of VGA for me personally is the multimedia.

No lotsa things.

The iPhone is the pretty blonde you meet at the party and have some fun with. Imagine being married to her 8O

PS I just bought an 8 Gb micro SD card for that Touch!

Like the post &amp; the blonde joke... but for me, I can't converge due to all the locking up along with my desire to view the month at a glance using mini text on Pocket Informant. Try that on QVGA. Either way, we may have differences for liking VGA. I still would like to see a device that is powerful, 256MB RAM/ROM, at least HVGA (iPHONE), WM without all the glitches, with a good battery &amp; not a brick to carry. Until then it's a BB Pearl &amp; a 3+ yr old Axim x50v.

[Dyvim]

As to iPhone:
This is a 520 Mhz device with 128 Mb RAM (approx 8 Mb reserved for GPU?). Take a Toshiba e-830, add a 32Gb CF card, purchase a pretty VGA icon theme pack from say...Juno (http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/sp/iphonelandscape.html) and really what advantage does the iPhone have?
The accelerometer...yes...innovative...yes. This helps with battery life too since Jobs is right. You don't need the screen on when its next to your face or in your pocket.
A decent browser...yes... again not insurmountable...even surpassable.

Ease of use? Gimme a break. That came at the expense on multifunctionality. NO slots. No useable BT profiles other than a simple headset? http://www.myitablet.com/iphones-bluetooth-is-dumb-purposely-crippled-or-both-151188.php
No lotsa things.

The iPhone is the pretty blonde you meet at the party and have some fun with. Imagine being married to her 8O
And what's so wrong about marrying that pretty blond? The first Pocket PC device I really fell in love with was Toshiba's e800. I continued that love affair with its successor the e830, but honestly that device is nearly 4 years old (and was really just a .dot upgrade to the e800 which will turn 5 this year). Ever since 2005 I have been increasingly disillusioned with Windows Mobile and what I perceive as its lack of progress and innovation. So last Fall I met that pretty blond (introduced her to my real wife actually (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57130&amp;) and fell in love in the process) and decided to jump ship for something that meets my needs better.

You can take your arguments against the iPhone and invert them depending on your perspective: Multifunctionality in Windows Mobile? Sure, but that came at the expense of ease of use. One thing that continues to amaze me about the iPhone (and which WM has never worked out) is the tight integration of all the apps. It's super easy to email a photo or set it as your wallpaper or assign it to a contact. Google Maps integrates really well with the Contacts app, etc. These simple no-brainer operations require complex series of taps in WM using the built-in apps. The WM mail program cannot even render html emails properly or show photo attachments inline.

Yes, the iPhone has a limited feature set compared to WM. But what it does, it does really well. WM is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Each will appeal to different users. And BT on my e830? Sure it has more profiles than my iPhone, but I could never really get any of them to work without pulling my hair out.

And what advantages does the iPhone have over the e830 with a 32 GB flash card? The e830 is a great PDA, but gimme a break. How about:
phone
EDGE
802.11g WiFi
camera
much better media player (even with half the pixels)
higher color resolution screen
smaller form factor
tougher form factor (glass screen is scratch resistant and awesome)
infinitely better built-in apps
support from the manufacturer- multiple firmware updates that actually add new functionality to the device (like the ability to rent movies (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=32368), no more struggling to convert DVDs to playback on your mobile device)
oh and it's actually available for purchase new

To be fair you need to at least compare it to a fellow phone device like the Universal or better yet one of the new VGA phone devices coming out.

[Cybrid]

And what's so wrong about marrying that pretty blond? Sure. Discuss your long range 401k plans with her.

You can take your arguments against the iPhone and invert them depending on your perspective: Multifunctionality in Windows Mobile? Sure, but that came at the expense of ease of use. One thing that continues to amaze me about the iPhone (and which WM has never worked out) is the tight integration of all the apps.Ok. Provide some real life examples. I've seen the iPhone for less than 30 min. Maybe I missed how I had to press home to get to another app.


It's super easy to email a photo or set it as your wallpaper or assign it to a contact.
Examples please.. I've found that super easy on my Touch.

Google Maps integrates really well with the Contacts app, etc.You mean like how PI has a right click to "find on google maps"? button. OMG!

These simple no-brainer operations require complex series of taps in WM using the built-in apps.
Examples please.
The WM mail program cannot even render html emails properly or show photo attachments inline.
insurmountable? no...even surpassable ?

Yes, the iPhone has a limited feature set compared to WM. But what it does, it does really well. WM is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Yessum. iPhone is master of what trade specifically?
Each will appeal to different users. Yes. You are very right there.
And BT on my e830? Sure it has more profiles than my iPhone, but I could never really get any of them to work without pulling my hair out.
Never had that much trouble meself. Except for my Toshiba Hopbit.


And what advantages does the iPhone have over the e830 ... How about:
my comments in italics
phone Yes, insurmountable? no
EDGE The cellular equivalent of dialup?
Brag when you have HSPA or EVDO
802.11g WiFi The advantage of which over 802.11b on a mobile device is? You don't slow the rest of the network. I'm sure that's important to you on the iPhone.
camera Ok. Reserved comment for later.

much better media player (even with half the pixels)Ok. Reserved comments
higher color resolution screen "
higher color resolution screen" See my previous post on color in Win Ce and why the 18 bit color screen is misleading. Are you getting all the color you paid for?

smaller form factorOk. conceded .
tougher form factor (glass screen is scratch resistant and awesome)Ok. conceded .

infinitely better built-in apps Examples please
support from the manufacturer- The price of your ROM upgrade? Toshiba did WM2003SE for free. Apple take you for $20 yet?
rent movies, no more struggling to convert DVDs to playback on your mobile device.
Compare apples to pinecones and get pineapples?
A: Download a movie, advantage neither.
B: Convert a DVD movie,
advantage neither.

oh and it's actually available for purchase new.Shiny! Gotcha, . I'll concede that one too.



To be fair you need to at least compare it to a fellow phone device like the Universal or better yet one of the new VGA phone devices coming out.
You'd lose. Run your own comparisons of a HTC Touch, O2 Flame vs. the iPhone.

My HTC Touch has a replaceable battery. Smaller form factor. An 8Gb micro SD card. 2Mp. camera and a cellular connection faster than 200kbps.
My new BT GPS will be arriving soon. I can map without needing cell connectivity. Kinda important out in the bush.

O2 Flame has TV Out, VGA, USB host? but is big.

[Dyvim]

Whatever, Cybrid ... yawn... :roll:

And yes, you seem to have missed quite a few things about the iPhone ... (as have many other Windows Mobile fans who are too quick to dismiss anything that is not Windows Mobile), but this time I'll skip on the many opportunities to enlighten you and leave it to someone else with more patience.

[Mikey]

Whatever, Cybrid ... yawn... :roll:

And yes, you seem to have missed quite a few things about the iPhone ... (as have many other Windows Mobile fans who are too quick to dismiss anything that is not Windows Mobile), but this time I'll skip on the many opportunities to enlighten you and leave it to someone else with more patience.

AMEN! That is my problem with many posts similar to Cybrid on this website. It is obvious the iPHONE is innovative in many ways, yet many on this site are TOO die hard to WM to look around &amp; will NOT stop defending WM, like they work for Microsoft or something? The iPHONE's sales prove your original post, Dyvim, to which I agree 100%. I've been on with a PDA since the Palm Pilot, followed by numerous Jornada's, iPAQ's, converged devices, etc. None have been as easy to set up as the Blackberry on email &amp;/or the iPHONE on what it does well, which is music, phone, email, &amp; internet. Cybrid's attitude is obviously similar to the development teams at MS &amp; Palm, which is why they are struggling behind Apple &amp; Blackberry, even though they were 1st in the game. WM is NOT as easy to use as the iPHONE for most of America.

[Cybrid]

Whatever, Cybrid ... yawn... :roll:
Sure. It's off topic anyway.
...Attitude... Attitude? No, Merely a viewpoint. Not necessarily the right one... simply having played with one for 30 min was enough to convince me that it wasn't what best satified my needs. If it does it for you... then best wishes. The flaws I find in it personally are too many to ignore. Too many compromises for little gain. I'd end up carrying a PPC to compensate. Same with a blackberry too btw. Again Off topic.

[Mikey]

Whatever, Cybrid ... yawn... :roll:
Sure. It's off topic anyway.
...Attitude... Attitude? No, Merely a viewpoint. Not necessarily the right one... simply having played with one for 30 min was enough to convince me that it wasn't what best satified my needs. If it does it for you... then best wishes. The flaws I find in it personally are too many to ignore. Too many compromises for little gain. I'd end up carrying a PPC to compensate. Same with a blackberry too btw. Again Off topic.

Cybrid, do you really think an iPHONE has not been truly innovative? What Pocket PC competes with it that can be bought new today for $300? Can the average college grad set up a Pocket PC on their wireless network at home? The iPHONE is easier in many areas. My point is that WM &amp; Palm would be smart to learn from the strengths Apple has instead of attacking the weaknesses. As I read your post, it appears you think WM is superior in every way to the iPHONE which seems awful one sided.

[Cybrid]

Mikey,
Rather than hijack this thread. Lets continue this conversation here:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=450048#450048
Dyvim, and anyone else interested in seeing how an iPhone isn't "so easy to use"?

[Cybrid]

Just remember Dyvim, "flatbed scanner".

[Menneisyys]

Guys and gals, I’ve just posted a HUGE roundup &amp; quick review of i-mate’s all four new devices to http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=450156

[davea0511]

I must agree with those comments that say that this comparison is absolutely meaningless for 3.5" and larger screens. The smaller text is absolutely useless on 2.8" and smaller screens, VGA or QGA.

But you move up to 3.5" or larger, that 25% increase in font size is enough to make small text which QGA can't do well very useful on VGA devices.

It also seems like there's always been a strong inclination by some to want to shrink screens to make devices smaller despite the fact that often there's tons of potential screen real-estate wasted between the screen and the device edges. This is pure lunacy imnsho (no offense).

Let's start stretching the screen to the device edges so we can have 3.5" and larger screens on small devices, where VGA makes a huge difference, not recognized in this comparison of 2.8" screens. Comparisons like this miss the picture entirely and thwart progress. Instead of saying, "thptpt! no good." we should demand that screens be stretched to device edges so VGA can provide some serious benefit.