Burned By Your Kaiser's Video Driver?

[Jon Westfall]

"Taiwaneese PDA giant HTC released their latest flagship PDA phone called HTC TyTN II (also known as Kaiser, Tilt and MDA Vario III) but recent discoveries show that maybe it's not so much a powerhouse after all. Due to lack of proper driver support for the video part of the Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset users are left with a seriously handicapped unit with very poor support for gaming, video and photo.Granted, the phone is mostly intended for business users who will rarely see the effects of these issues but it's still leaving thousands of customers who want to fully utilize the phone with a slightly bitter taste in their mouths."

For those who aren't familiar with the debate on Kaiser/Tilt/TyTNII/Vario/Whateveryoucallit video drivers, the original thread (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339173) at XDA-Developers may help shed some light on what the above paragraph mentions. In a nutshell, some Kaiser owners have noticed that the display drivers provided with the device are not fully optimized to take advantage of the hardware. Videos, games, and other high-graphics intensive applications seem to be choppy or fail to run. While the concerned netizen that sent us the above admits that business users (the device's target audience) will rarely notice the problems, the debate still seems to have enough steam to cause 3660 people to sign an online petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/tytn2vid/) asking HTC to provide better drivers for the device.

I'm not signing. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see HTC appease the power users and the business users alike. My thoughts on this may go against power users (of which I'd classify myself), so at the risk of being flamed, here's my take: The Kaiser was never designed to be a gaming device or multimedia powerhouse. Sure it can do those things, but when HTC set out to create it, it was never an intended goal. I've watched videos on my device, and I've played games and have not noticed any unacceptable lags. And I have a hard time holding HTC accountable for something they never advertised (http://tytnseries.htc.com/htctytn2.html).

So what should be done? Well, 3660 is a large number, and efforts are already underway at XDA-Developers to hack together better drivers. This seems to be a much more productive way of fixing the situation, rather than signing a online petition. What do you think? Should HTC be compelled to release better drivers to appease a relatively small segment of their user base, or should the responsibility rest at the hands of the "hackers" who, to date, rarely let the power-user community down?

[whydidnt]

I disagree. The device runs Windows Mobile6. WM6 is advertised as a do everything device - play music, videos, games, etc, with a FAST processor.

However, I believe the most common issue that would be addressed by proper video driver support has nothing to do with multimedia. My understanding is that a proper video driver would solve the significant delay most of us experience when switching from portrait to landscape by opening the keyboard. Having to wait for 3-5 seconds before the keyboard is usable is not acceptable and should be addressed.

[Brad Adrian]

While I'm always in favor of tricking out my device to get it to do as much as possible, to me this issue is best handled by a group like XDA-Developers. It's an enhancement that was never part of the claimed specs, not many people will need it, and it'll probably get fixed a lot quicker that way.

I've gotten to really love my Tilt, but not as a super-duper multimedia device. I like it because it's the best WM-based response to the Blackberry that I've seen.

[stmcgill]

I agree that they have not specifically advertised the graphics capabilities but the HTC marketing machine does boast somewhat regarding the TyTN II power-

"More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before, the HTC TyTN II takes global connectivity to the next level."

"...positions the touch screen perfectly for reading and creating e-mails, using applications, or even just playing games."

As it happens I was writing an article about the little things manufacturers sometimes forget this afternoon and the TyTN was included-

"Everything works on the TyTN II, apart from very poor video playback (apparently due to some problem with video drivers), a delay every time I open the keyboard (no one quite knows why this happens at the moment), having to turn the phone off and back on after a phone call to get it working again (someone did release a small third party fix for this though which helps) and some other smaller inconveniences which can start to annoy after a while. For a top of the range device, the overall performance is marred somewhat by these small issues that should have been solved long ago. Millions of dollars are spent on design, manufacturing and marketing but once released the investment appears to stop completely."

HTC is IMO the best WinMob manufacturer today, but small things like this will annoy power users. I see no issue with a petition if it helps the customer, but can see the point that maybe the II is not technically an entertainment device. It is when the issue affects other parts such as opening the keyboard that the problem can start to damage the entire TyTN II experience.

[alex_kac]

I think the issue is looked at the wrong way. I think HTC *should* be forced to bring about better drivers for a few reasons:

1) HTC is notorious within the OEM/Carrier community for providing poor drivers and poorly written software. I've spoken directly to the carriers and I've been told specifically that this is why HTC devices typically take longer to go to retail than other manufacturers because they keep finding major issues with the "extra" stuff that HTC puts on their devices plus poor drivers. Anyone remember the issues with SD card drivers and the like? So just for the sake of sending a message that software is just as important as the hardware I think HTC needs to provide quality drivers. This is even more important for the business user.

2) As apps and system utilities and even the OS itself begin to provide more high end user interface features better graphics drivers are going to make a huge difference in the perceived speed of business apps.

This has nothing to do with what HTC advertised or the fact that its useful for gaming. Its simply taking HTC to task for providing quality drivers.

[Menneisyys]

I think the issue is looked at the wrong way. I think HTC *should* be forced to bring about better drivers for a few reasons:


Yup - but they are pretty unlikely to listen. I've been bombing them with the 2.8" TI / Samsung / Qualcomm 7200 2.8" touchscreen CPU usage bug for two years but they still haven't fixed it... It is a MAJOR bug... They got it right in the 6700 (the only Xscale-based 2.8" device) but nothing else.

[Menneisyys]

This has nothing to do with what HTC advertised or the fact that its useful for gaming. Its simply taking HTC to task for providing quality drivers.

Many of us have been REALLY waiting for the Qualcomm 7200 platform because of the built-in 3D support - now that the Intel 2700g is no longer used in any contemporary model and the GoForce 5500 is only used in some mid-range, PXA-270-based (that is, heavily outdated) devices, that'd be our ONLY way to get proper hardware 3D support.

This would have been a great opportunity for both Qualcomm and HTC to attract a lot of people to the platform. They have messed it up royally - a lot of (also) gaming-oriented people are abandoniing the platform and going for either Nokia (N95, N82, or even the older N93i) or PSP / DS.

[paschott]

I have mixed feelings on this one. If the updated driver would solve the delay in switching from portrait to landscape and back, then it's HTC's responsibility to fix. If it's purely for gaming, then I'd leave it to the XDA-Dev community. I tend to trust the stuff XDA comes up with and they're more interested in making a device usable than HTC or the carriers. Who else would support WM6 on a Wizard? The carriers want you to buy a new device. HTC listens to them instead of the users (after all, that's where they get their money, not from us directly). Thus, no updates even though the device is quite capable.

I'd like to see HTC support their devices a little better - it seems that they throw something out the door and might possibly patch something if their direct customers push for it, but that's about it. The rest of us have to deal with re-mixes after that.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, though. I'd love to get a Tilt, but can't justify AT&T's upgrade price for one at this point. Even worse when new service would get me a Tilt for about $100 less than AT&T's upgrade plans. :(

-Pete

[Menneisyys]

While I'm always in favor of tricking out my device to get it to do as much as possible, to me this issue is best handled by a group like XDA-Developers. It's an enhancement that was never part of the claimed specs, not many people will need it, and it'll probably get fixed a lot quicker that way.

Hopefully it will :) There're several ongoing "hacking" projects; see http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=355345 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=351986 . Of the latter, I've too reported on my blog.

[omikron.sk]

I am one of the first TyTN II owners and I've paid insane amount of money for it.
One of the main reason for me for buying it was that it includes "powerful" Qualcomm MSM7200 chipset. Which is dual-core chip with standalone graphic chip. If you google a bit you will discover that Qualcomm claims this chip fully supports Direct3D Mobile as well as OpenGL ES on Windows Mobile. None of these is supported on Kaiser.
What did I pay my money for then? My 4 year old HP iPaq h2210 is much much faster with old Intel Xscale PXA255 CPU.
It plays movies with ease, unlike TyTN II.
You can scroll in the Start/Programs with ease, unlike on TyTN II which takes ages to scroll.
I am absolutely mad when someone says that HTC should do nothing about it and that they didn't advertised for it. It's like if you bought a new Porsche and then found out that it takes 30 minutes to open the door to get in it. Porsche didn't advertise for fast-door opening so why would they care, right?

[volwrath]

As Menneisyys correctly points out, its not just the Kaiser, but also the Mogul and the Sprint Touch. It is also not just for gaming, but anything that uses direct draw. Hence TCPMP suffers as well as slingbox. This is an issue with HTC and it should definitely by them.

[JonnoB]

The poor video driver is the only major complaint about the Kaiser. I love it otherwise. HTC does in fact advertise the game aspect of the device as someone already pointed out. See here (http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_tytn_II.htm)the following text

Communicating on the go is easier than ever with an innovative, ergonomic LCD design that positions the touch screen perfectly for reading and creating e-mails, using applications, or even just playing games.

The video driver problem affects for than games... but standard media items such as watching videos - something that was smoother on much older and slower devices. If the petition gets HTC to focus on improving the the Kaiser, I think they will have learned to not shortcut future devices in something as common as the video department.

[bearxor]

Anyone who has been on the WM scene for a while and expected HTC to deliver a device to fuction as good as the hardware makes it out to be needs to be shot.

HTC consistently delivers nice hardware couple with really ****ty software support. This is why I've switched to a Treo 700wx and why my month with both a HTC Mogul and HTC Tilt couldn't drag me away. The Treo 700wx may look like a dog on paper but because of the significant software enhancements Palm provided for the device it runs circles around either of those phones for most people in day-to-day operation.

Looking forward to a Treo 800w :).

[PdaAddict]

I am not convinced this is purely a "driver" issue. My Mogul is sluggish in other applications as well. Hermes with its single core Samsung CPU and ATI GPU was a much faster device in all aspects, video and non-video. I had a chance to play with the new IPAQ 110 and boy is it fast. Qualcomm chipset looks fantastic on paper, but I do not see any advantages to this hyped dual core architecture. I will take any PXA or Samsung CPU (even old models) any day over this Qualcomm junk.

[naio21]

I, for one, welcome our online petition overlords. In my opinion it IS HTC's responsibility to deliver proper drivers indeed.

[Non-Geek]

My Kaiser does not seem to have lag when the keyboard is open. It is almost instantly usable. About the videos/game lag, can someone please post a link of a sample video for me to try out. My machine plays youtube with keyboard being used and I don't see any lag. Maybe you guys are talking about different types of videos.

[Shaun Stuart]

Jon - this is really depressing - I am a long time pocket pc user and believe in converged devices which is what smartphones have become.

While I believe that it is fine for particular devices to excel in some ways more than others (i.e more focus on an excellent camera or an excellent music player) all windows smartphones should be able to handle all basic functions at least resonably well.

If the kaiser cant handle video, this is a massive backward step - windows mobile devices or pocket pcs from 4-5 years ago could handle video - why should we expect any less today. The cost of the device alone suggests the feature should be included and above all else if there is a video player on the device when it is sold - surely customers should expect the bloody thing to work.

People have often questioned why I carry a WM phone - they tend to be bigger phones than most and not as fashionable. I am always happy to justify my choice by showing them what it could do. The Kasier is a cool device but a brick compared to a lot of phones today - now its a brick that has a video player that doesnt work.

Unhappy customers should return their devices and rightly expect a fix or a refund. HTC as the manufacturer ARE responsible, be it a driver or hardware problem, but microsoft need to get their act together and force manufacturers using their OS to meet a higher standard of performance. While I remain a fan of windows mobile I have lost count of the number of forums I have read where customers have been left with poor support, lack of upgrades and shoddy performance. I think manufacturers and microsoft have got away with it in the past because their devices still offered more functionality than competitors - this is no longer the case.

I have always carried two devices, one symbian 60 (currently Nokia N95) and one Windows mobile (HTC Artemis). Up until a year ago symbian was my back up OS and I used my Windows mobile device 90% of the time - since the introduction of the N95 and the lack of what i believe is real innovation in windows mobile over the last two years my Nokia n95 has become my main smartphone. While it is not perfect it is quicker to use, more stable, more pocketable, the screen is smaller but the web browsing experience is better. It has a great camera, plays and records video.

I viewed this as a temporary change until the HTC Polaris (Touch Cruise) was due to be released. It was rumoured that the Polaris would have a VGA screen more memory, a better processor and quality camera - but the poor performance of the kaiser (which i understand is the basis of the Polaris) has put me off - and probably explains why the VGA screen did not make it in the final version of the polaris.

I am sure that microsoft will continue to improve the OS but they need to get a move on if they are to make a bigger dent in symbians worldwide market share and stop apple from becoming a dominant player. Having windows mobile devices on the market that cant handle basic video functions only does damage to the os reputation.

I am astonished that you believe this is somebody elses problem to fix.

[DaleReeck]

Any device should have proper working drivers that take maximum advantage of the capabilites for ALL the hardware in it. It is irrelevent what the device was "designed for".

[Brad Adrian]

...having to turn the phone off and back on after a phone call to get it working again (someone did release a small third party fix for this though which helps)...

I've only had this problem intermittently. But, do you recall where I can find the third party fix you mention?

[Jon Westfall]

Jon - this is really depressing...I am astonished that you believe this is somebody elses problem to fix.

I understand your points, and I suppose part of my reasoning has to do with the pragmatic nature I've taken with official fixes and upgrades - it may simply be easier to fix the problems within the community (especially a problem that many users would consider minor), than hound the ODM to fix it proper. And it may send the wrong message to the ODM, namely: Make everything work extremely well and precise before you release the device. If this message took hold, we would still be waiting for the Kaiser to be released.

At some point you have to give manufacturers the benefit of the doubt - they can't get everything right on the first pass.

So to clarify my position:

Yes, HTC Should fix it, however I understand it may take substantially longer for them to fix it than for a hack to be developed. In light of this, maybe efforts should be more spent on the hack than on the petition.

[RF9]

I don't play games at all I barely watch video, and I can say that in general the graphics performance of the Tilt sucks even just doing the web/email stuff I do most of the time. There are delays and lags just scrolling web pages.
It's really not that bad, but it's not so good. And I have no idea how they plan to support AT&T video share on this (as advertised) without optimized video drivers.

I always assumed that with the video share update that they'd fix the video performance problem.

Yes, fix the darn video driver to take the graphics work off the CPU so it doesn't choke on graphics. The way it is now it's simply unfinished and to me that mens it's not delivered as advertised.
We'd never let Palm get away with it, I don't expect we should let HTC get away with it.

[winthropdc]

I upgraded from an i-mate K-JAM (Wizard) to a HTC TyTN II (Kaiser) in November 2007. While I love almost everything about the phone, the video perfomance has been very disappointing. The camera is unusable, there is too much delay between pressing the shutter button and the photo being taken. Video recording frame rate is way too slow. The video playback drops so many frames that it is not worth watching. The video files are the same files which worked fine on the K-JAM. It is disappointing that a device which is two generations and two years later performs worse than an old device.

David

PS: I did sign the petition.

[volwrath]

HTC consistently delivers nice hardware couple with really s****y software support. This is why I've switched to a Treo 700wx and why my month with both a HTC Mogul and HTC Tilt couldn't drag me away. The Treo 700wx may look like a dog on paper but because of the significant software enhancements Palm provided for the device it runs circles around either of those phones for most people in day-to-day operation.

Looking forward to a Treo 800w :).

That is most certainly not the case. The 700wx looks like a dog on paper and you know what, it is a dog. I went from the 700wx to the HTC Touch/Vogue (gave the 700wx to my wife), and it pains me to a) look at the horrib 700wx screen and b) to wait on it.

The video driver issue on the HTC is an irritant at best to me. Sling still works, although it could be better, and TCPMP you just need to turn off direct draw.

[starstreak]

I signed it. I was told this could improve the camera. Its one of the worst in lag. It NEEDS a better video driver. It makes the camera almost useless. I dont care for games but I use the camera.

[Menneisyys]

I have always carried two devices, one symbian 60 (currently Nokia N95) and one Windows mobile (HTC Artemis). Up until a year ago symbian was my back up OS and I used my Windows mobile device 90% of the time - since the introduction of the N95 and the lack of what i believe is real innovation in windows mobile over the last two years my Nokia n95 has become my main smartphone. While it is not perfect it is quicker to use, more stable, more pocketable, the screen is smaller but the web browsing experience is better. It has a great camera, plays and records video.s more than others (i.e more focus on an excellent camera or an excellent music player) all windows smartphones should be able to handle all basic functions at least resonably well.


Exactly my sentiments. Before the N95 (particularly with the v20 firmware), I found Symbian handsets definitely inferior to the (then, current) Windows Mobile models. With the (v20) N95, this has completely changed. It's just far more pocketable, far lighter, far snappier, has definitely better A2DP, incomparably better camera (with VGA video recording!) and pretty nice battery life than any current Windows Mobile device out there. (Note that I'm speaking of MY preferences: multimedia (both A2DP and using the built-in speakers) playback, Web browsing, mailing, camera, in this order. The N95 is perfectly suited for these four tasks. Someone that needs a device for, say, remote desktop control will state the opposite - there, the lack of the touchscreen is a showstopper. Also note that I also keep my ThinkOutside Stowaway keyboard with me so textual input isn't a problem - and it's way better than any built-in thumbboard, even that of the Universal.)

I catch myself going out (to church, to walks with the wife, to concerts etc.) with only one "real" computing device nowadays: the N95. (I also keep an additional phone with me all the time, the HTC Oxygen / s310 MS Smartphone, but I only use it for phone purposes and nothing else - apart from reviewing the 176*220 / s310 compliance of MS Smartphone software. I have a Vodafone SIM card in my N95 with an unlimited data plan, which can't be used for voice calls.) I just leave my Windows Mobile Pocket PC's at home - I can do, in most cases, the same on the N95 as on them. It's only when I do know that I will definitely need a VGA or a touchscreen that I take my Universal (or (some) of my other WinMo handhelds / phones) with me.

I really hope HTC (and other phone manufacturers) start to bring out something revolutionary. Something MUCH better than the, in my opinion, with the current drivers, pretty much mediocre Kaiser. Up until them, I stick with the N95 as my main PDA.

[Sven Johannsen]

At some point you have to give manufacturers the benefit of the doubt - they can't get everything right on the first pass.

Problem is Jon, when was the last time you saw a decent attempt at a second pass from the current crop of OEM/ODMs. Back in the day when Compaq, HP, and even Dell were making Pocket PCs, you could count on 2 or 3 updates (not upgrades ;) ) over the life of a device, that actually fixed things and improved others. It seems that these days with the converged device, which are one more step removed from the consumer, there is no longer any incentive for the manufacturer to fix anything. Their focus is to get a new model out the door for their partners.

I'm afraid that HTCs hands may be as tied as MSs were in the beginning. Not an excuse, just an observation. Just as MS wasn't selling the OS to the consumer, but rather to the manufacturers, HTC is likely listening to AT&T more than to us. I bet there are a lot more $300 AT&T Tilts out there than $800 TyTn IIs. If AT&T doesn't ask for the fix, and potentially won't even provide it to their customers, what incentive does HTC have in creating it. On that note, I would suppose a petition to AT&T indicating a lack of support for their video and media services without enhanced Tilt drivers would have more efect than a petition to HTC.

Be that as it may, I'm really looking forward to the new devices from HP. So far I have not seen any indication they are looking to partner with any particular carrier. Maybe that will mean they will be more responsive to the consumers that buy the device. Remains to be seen, but I recall HP actually doing pretty well releasing updates to their devices in the past.

[Menneisyys]

Be that as it may, I'm really looking forward to the new devices from HP. So far I have not seen any indication they are looking to partner with any particular carrier. Maybe that will mean they will be more responsive to the consumers that buy the device. Remains to be seen, but I recall HP actually doing pretty well releasing updates to their devices in the past.

Me too, mostly because they use the new Marvel Xscale PXA-3x0 series of CPU’s, which are WAY better than the highly outdated PXA-27x series. (Frankly, I don’t understand why for example i-mate and some other manufacturers are still releasing PXA-27x-based devices – it’s so inferior to current architectures…)

[omikron.sk]

@all: Two new sites explaining TyTN II's issues and suggesting what to do about it have been created: http://htcclassaction.org/ and http://www.htcdriver.com/