Open Letter to Warez Sites from Alex Kac Regarding Software Piracy [Archive]

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

06-19-2007, 08:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?s=7c5317a05ae84814ac6bb4ab9a83e2ea&showtopic=11368&st=0&p=61900&#entry619003' target='_blank'>http://www.pocketinformant.com/Foru...00&#entry619003</a> </div>"Myself and a band of software devs here have found a *very* large pirate warez site which I will not link to. They have cracks for almost everything imaginable. They have our software on there with download ratios in the TENS of THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than I see on our own download servers. I've calculated that even if we only lost 10% of those downloads that could have been sales its a pretty major hit... The fact is that piracy hurts those who pirate. They want our software obviously. Some just use it for a "test", but we offer a two week trial and with a bit of work you can probably get 2-3 months free usage of our products a year. And we don't sell for a large amount of money. Just wait and you can usually get our software for a steal - without actually stealing. I don't think paying $9.95 is such a huge issue if you need an app like VoiceMinder. Its barely a lunch and drink. But the reason piracy hurts those who pirate is because they are like vampires slowly killing the company that they are sucking the applications off of." If any of you have been with us long enough, you know that we roll our eyes constantly at all the DRM / anti-piracy actions taken by entities such as the RIAA and MPAA that infringe upon the rights of real customers. The flipside though is that piracy cuts into the "bottom-line" of all companies. In the case of the Windows Mobile community and awesome third-party developers such as WebIS, it can be especially painful, particulary if they have to shut down, which helps no one (personally, I can't even imagine life without such great solutions such as Pocket Informant or FlexWallet). Now, we know the vast majority of us here appreciate great software and are willing to pay for whatever we use. However, for the minority of people out there that have taken advantage of software pirating opportunities, we here at Pocket PC Thoughts and the entire family of Thoughts Media would humbly request that you provide the monetary support necessary to help sustain these wonderful companies and individuals. Please feel free to visit the provided link to understand the ramifications piracy has on companies such as WebIS.

dommasters

06-19-2007, 08:16 PM

The vast majority may appreciate good software but I think only a small minority now pay for it. Pirated versions are free, easy and everywhere ...

burtcom

06-19-2007, 08:55 PM

Jason Dunn

06-19-2007, 09:05 PM

Gerard

06-19-2007, 09:45 PM

In testing hundreds of softwares for developers over the years and reporting problems, I've had occassion to engage many of them in conversations around licensing procedures. Many programs have rather simple, 'transparent' registration procedures, making it a painless matter to get the program fully registered. Some use more arcane methods, such as not allowing pasting in of long strings of numbers (forces the user to write them down on a piece of paper for later writing into the registration dialogue, introducing human error potential and greater need for support responses when the user becomes frustrated), or worse, sending in forms full of personal information and device information to then wait a day or a few for an unlock code. It's plain from an end-user perspective which of these is preferable; simpler is better.

I understand the developers' side of this stuff, and completely empathise. I'd not want people walking into my workshop, taking the products of my labours, and just walking off without so much as a 'thank you.' It's just rude, and hey, we all have bills to pay! But in my experience, it is very rare that a registration procedure prevents piracy of any software. It's actually hard to avoid stumbling across warez sites, and in my sort of situation it's especially difficult; the forum I moderate regularly gets postings linking to such sites, and in the process of checking originating IP addresses for blocking and tracking links, I've become aware of many such places. I've seen collections where tens of thousands of titles and versions of practically every PPC software ever written are available as crackz. What does this tell me? A) that there will always be some clever little punk out there who's only too happy to crack software, and B) that locked registration of software is predominently useless, a waste of developers' efforts.

So my conclusion for now is that developers ought not to waste too much time on this. The kiddiez will do their nasty little work, and the more effort/time a developer spends trying to prevent that the greater will be his/her frustration when a crack is posted in umpteen locations. I test for Conduits and Resco, for a couple of examples, and lately have seen no more than a 3 day lag between releases of new versions officially and the release of the cracked versions on one site (also apparently in Eastern Europe, and as mentioned by someone else, asking for donations rather boldly), usually more like one day after release. How can a developer fight this? Well, they can't.

One fellow, an excellent programmer whose CECam I use daily to run my FlyCam 1.3Mp CF camera, has gone to the extra trouble of using the lengthy user/device info form, having the user submit a file generated by this form, then personally creating a registration code around that file and emailing it back to the user. He uses this for his much more popular remote control application as well, apparently (I don't need that, and haven't tested it). In a few email exchanges regarding this issue, he's outlined his position quite clearly. Quoting this developer:

Regarding the copy protection: In the past I have tried to publish software with a simple registration key.
This key was posted on some cracker websites one week after the software release. Also one of my products was cracked and distributed by unauthorized parties tree years ago and the revenues was decreased by 60%

I have had two choice decisions:
1. Stop all further sofware developments for the public.
2. Make the software uncrackable and use a user dedicated key.

I have decided like other sofware publishers to go the second way. I hate to do this, because the creation of the registration keys is a huge effort for me too.
But this method has an advantage: All upcoming releases (esp. RemoteControl II with weekly or monthly updates) are free for registered users.

Again, I understand. However, on two occassions his registration protocol has cost me between a day and several days' use of my CF camera, when I've obtained a new model of PPC. The software has no trial period, and as such simply does not allow use of the camera with it - and the native software, by the now-extinct IAStyle, is a complete farce, not really usable for making halfway decent photographs. This inspires considerable anger when it happens. I feel similarly frustrated when apMemo or some other similarly difficult to register title isn't functioning for me based on saved registration codes. If there must be protection for the developer, surely there must be a way to allow for that while avoiding inconveniencing the consumer so much!? With so many clever software developers out there, hasn't someone come up with a practically bullet-proof method? This style of per-device registration smacks to me of Windows Genuine Advantage and Trusted Computing, which are both oxymorons... and of course have both been cracked multiple times by the kidz.

So, speaking from an idealist's perspective, I'd like to see actual trust involved in this whole affair. If developers trusted their customers to pay, if we could somehow build an atmosphere of shared understanding of needs and wants, would it not be possible to make everyone happy without all this DRM/licensing stuff in the way? My sense is that given the current societal model where money is king and morality runs somewhere well back in the pack, the answer is 'no.' I hope for improvement in that territory before I get too old and just give up on people. I know the effort it takes to write good software. It's not so different from what it takes to make a good musical instrument, which is to say a LOT of skilled effort and time. I often ask my customers what my work is worth to them. About a quarter of the time, the answer is higher than the figure I have in mind, and they offer this difference as an un-billed tip. The rest of they time they're happy to pay what I ask, as they know it's not an unfairly high price. They know that other shops charge more, for work not as good as what I offer. Fostering greater understanding of what's involved, educating my clients, has helped build my reputation as a good workman charging a fair price. I hope that this sort of attitude can be brought to bear in other fields... but yeah, digital information is different from woodwork... and without face-to-face contact there is less obviously another actual person being victimised. Somehow we've got to muddle through this time of flux in computing information and find solutions which allow for a healthy environment for all.

PPCRules

06-19-2007, 10:17 PM

"... download ratios in the TENS of THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than I see on our own download servers. I've calculated that even if we only lost 10% of those downloads that could have been sales its a pretty major hit...

(Underlining mine)

I'm not suggesting that pirated software (/music/movies) doesn't result in some net loss of sales (can't prove either way), but as long as the music/movie industries and software developers use "downloads" in their arguments, they will continue to present a weak case.

I can't prove these numbers either, but I will confidently suggest that much less than one percent of material downloaded is ever used (think about it: life isn't long enough to make use of all that people can/do easily download from these kinds of sites; much is downloaded for bragging rights). So no lost sales among those downloads that are never used.
And much of what is ever "used" at all (remember, very, very little of what is "downloaded") does not continue to be used - rather, a self-produced "demo"; just downloaded as a curiosity. So it is not a lost sale either.
Add to that (subtract from that?) the exposure that these "demos" give the product, and the mindshare and free publicity when the product gets in front of people and keep them from buying the competition instead.

This all makes these download-based arguments not very convincing.

My favorite case in point for this last point: for the oldtimers, Lotus 123 would never had achieved it's category dominance if people couldn't have copied it for free; all those people (most at least) would have purchased one of the many cheaper alternative category products instead, breaking up the market over a dozen competitors and exposing people to a variety of alternate products. Same with music: if people weren't comsuming free music from the industry-signed "stars", they'd be downloading free music from independent musicians and being exposed to a whole 'nother universe of musicians.

So, from that perspective, these people had better be careful about what they hope for.

dommasters

06-19-2007, 10:28 PM

Edited ... oops I can't say that!

tchart

06-19-2007, 10:35 PM

Yes, this is a sad reality of software development :(

Originally my applications had custom registration routines but this means an additional overhead for me as well as delays in customers getting their registration numbers. Hence I switched to the RPN method in order for Handango, PocketGear etc to generate the keys directly for the customers.

Its much better for the end user but it is much easier to crack.

Most users are comfortable with be serial number being generated for a specific user/owner name but Ive even had a few who dont like this as they reckon it is problematic. How many people actually ever change their owner name? I am happy to resupply keys for genuine users but having non-specific serial numbers is just asking for even more trouble.

Ive seen several warez sites with my application posted on it that have 100's of replies of peole saying its a nice program and thanks for the crack.

That kind of thing defintely doesnt motivate me to add new features.

Unfortunately I dont see any end for this. Like Gerard said, if you shut down shop the crackers will just move onto something else.

Not that Im going for the sympathetic vote here, but being a single income family with two kids, the software I sell literally pays for the food on the table.

Regards
Trevor Hart
Tchart Development

lanwarrior

06-19-2007, 10:39 PM

JamesS

06-19-2007, 10:55 PM

If there's one thing that this digital age has shown me, it's that morally, most people are quite immature. They will avoid things if they think they'll get caught - meaning they won't steal from a retail store - but if there's no fear of repercussion, they're all too happy to take something. That's the level of morality that a child operates on - they won't disobey their parent by taking a cookie if the parent is in the room and they know they'll get caught, but if they can get that cookie later when no one is around, they'll take it.

We live a sad, sad world.

I think this gets right to the heart of the issue of piracy.

No matter what extra anti-piracy measures are put into applications, some bright person will find a way around them and pirated versions will become available.

The only way piracy will decline is if people recognise piracy is wrong and make conscious decisions to do the right thing.

I'm hopeful Alex's letter will make a difference if it's widely read amongst the PPC community. It clearly spells out the situation and highlights the implications of the choices people make.

But in many cases individual choice will boil down to "what can I get away with?", even when the implications of piracy are understood. IMO this is moral immaturity.

Jason Lee

06-19-2007, 11:00 PM

I agree with many of these people. No matter how good your copy protection is, someone WILL crack it eventually. So you are only hurting your paying customers.

There are several software packages that i have refused to buy just because of their activation methods. Tom Tom for example. Even games. I refused to ever buy Half life 2 because of its activation. I loved the first game and really wanted the second.. But not if i have to activate it online.

The people who steal your software were never going to pay for it in the first place. Plus as pointed out above many of those downloads are never used or only used for a short time. This leave almost no actual loss in sales.
Yes i know it is very frustrating. It would make me very angry too. But that is what happens. Windows mobile has reached main stream. Years ago you couldn't find a hack or a crack for any WM software. Now that is it popular your software will be cracked. That is the way of things.

Gerard

06-19-2007, 11:02 PM

Another point I neglected to mention in my rather long-winded diatribe; what if a developer vanishes? This may seem a small risk, but I've experienced it in one case where it was a fairly major setback. Remember GigaBar? Gene Knight intended to make it shareware or something along those lines, and as such back in about 2003 implemented an online registration code generating page. It worked fairly well, though he did have some problems with the server/script at times and had to maintain that, and a support forum to help keep track of when this happened and whether it was resolved. GigaBar and his other products have dropped out of existence apparently. Gene must have moved on to other interests. Those of us who had for years been using the program were left with no way to register it on new machines, even though he'd never got around to collecting any actual money for it!

Now, if Frank of CECam dies or decides to do something else or whatever, regardless of his intentions, those of us still needing his software may well be stuck, even after having paid his license fee - which including related expenses cost me over USD$40 for this great program. I'm not complaining about price! But I wish that license meant that so long as my FlyCam still works, I can still use it. Simple and logical, right? But chance isn't like that. Things happen. That's why I keep valid registration codes in text files on several different types of storage media. I don't want to have to try and track down developers later, who may or may not have codes for me, if they can even find a record of my having purchased the software.

dommasters

06-19-2007, 11:06 PM

Mr Gigabar would no doubt still be in business if more people had purchased rather than ripped off his apps.

JonMisurda

06-19-2007, 11:07 PM

Note: the following does not condone any action which is illegal

How is distributing warez different than making a freeware version of the same program?

Both take a level of technical know-how. Both are trading time (to develop or crack) for money. Both allow one person's effort to not need to be redone by distributing the resultant work. Both derive the original creator of a commercial application of their money by reducing sales.

Half of the freeware programs I've written are because I saw a program that does something I wanted to do, saw how much it cost, and said "wow, thats expensive, I bet I could do that and possibly learn something along the way." Am I behaving in an immoral way?

What is moral or immoral about copyright protection anyways? It seems culturally relative since if we live in a communist society, there would not necessarily be any such protections.

/end devil's advocate :devilboy:

applestar

06-19-2007, 11:18 PM

I am quite sure I know the site you are talking about. And yes, it is really frustrating to see thousand of cracked PPC applications there. Still, I do not believe, people downloading from there would ever be your clients. Some non-professionals stuffing their PPC with a lot of applications just because its free. In my opinion the game developers suffer most since these non-professional users are probably their main target group.

Open Letter to Alex:

A couple of months ago I bought two licences of FlexMail from you. After using the trial for a couple of days and some testing.

Shortly after buying the software all my eMails and my eMail settings disappeared. After some reading in your forums I realized its a bug that was quite common. And quite a lot of people complaining.

I asked you to refund my money. Well, you denied the refund and asked for log files in return. I spent already hours in restoring the devices, there were not logfiles anymore. You made it clear you would NOT refund as long as you did not get logfiles and detailed error descriptions.

In the end it was Handango that refunded one of two licences.

Alex, I bought roughly a hundred PPC shareware products. And only in three occasions I asked for a refund. In your case it was the only time a developer did not react properly to the refund request.

I know your products are very well known, used by quite a lot of people and very well rated. Still, in my case it was the attitude of your company that really gave me a huge disappointment. Even if the bug would be caused by another third party software (which I frankly do not believe in this case) - a refund should be always possible.

End of story? I ordered VoiceMinder a couple of weeks later and I am happy with that product. No problems so far :)

Conclusion? Alex, its all about upgrades and customer service. That is the KEY reason I spent thousands of dollars on PPC shareware. I happily pay my upgrade prices unless they are not over exaggerated (e.g. SOTI) and I love to participate in feature requests etc.

Gerard

06-19-2007, 11:52 PM

Mr Gigabar would no doubt still be in business if more people had purchased rather than ripped off his apps.

How do you figure? There was no "Mr Gigabar' - the guy's name, and it was legendary among loyal PPC using fans of his brilliant software, was Gene Knight, as I said. And he NEVER CHARGED A DIME for GigaBar, as I also said! For whatever reasons, and he never posted them publicly, he always offered GigaBar as a freeware. Only in the last year or two did he set up a registration process, but this was always free, preparatory to his *possibly* one day charging for use. So please, before making such rash statements as though they were fact, read the truth. If he had ever asked money of users, I would happily have paid, as GigaBar was, and would be still if possible to use on a more modern OS, the single most important program I ran. It did far more than any other taskbar replacement yet invented, and included among its many, many features a brilliant and customisable notepad called GigaPad.

Jason Dunn

06-20-2007, 12:06 AM

Half of the freeware programs I've written are because I saw a program that does something I wanted to do, saw how much it cost, and said "wow, thats expensive, I bet I could do that and possibly learn something along the way." Am I behaving in an immoral way?

If you do the work to create a freeware program, then decide to give it away, that's your right to do so - and of course there's nothing immoral about it, because you're making the decision to give away the fruits of your labour.

The issue here is that someone else is TAKING AWAY that choice from the devleoper - FORCING their work away from, to be given away without their permission. That's immoral - a creator should always be able to control his creation until such time as he gives it away.

What is moral or immoral about copyright protection anyways? It seems culturally relative since if we live in a communist society, there would not necessarily be any such protections.

I think if you were to look at communist societies, you'd see a stark difference in terms of patents, inventions, and general creativity. In a society where no one can earn a reward for their innovative work, few do any innovation. Besides, this is all theoretical since there never was a "true" communist society where all resources were fairly distributed amongst the people. Human nature makes that an impossibility.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

06-20-2007, 12:17 AM

How is distributing warez different than making a freeware version of the same program?
Pretty clear to me. Whatever version you create is NOT the same program! It may provide the same functionality and even look the same, but it's your program, NOT the program of the original developer.

If someone spends time cracking software, what he or she ultimately delivers is that same software solution that was the result of someone else's valuable time conceiving, designing, testing, and supporting his/her software.

If this line of thinking was allowed to legitimize what we consider piracy today, very very few sane developers would bother expending their time and energy delivering value-add solutions to us... what we'd have instead of companies such as WebIS, Ilium Software, PhatWare, Laridian, etc. is a bunch of people skilled in cracking software as opposed to developing it.

I'm not saying there isn't great functional freeware available. There is, but there's no doubt that majority of the best applications that have delivered the most value was born out of a commercial endeavor from a group of developers looking to make a living.

We're hurting ourselves if we allow this type of thinking to be rationalized.

JonMisurda

06-20-2007, 12:29 AM

The issue here is that someone else is TAKING AWAY that choice from the devleoper - FORCING their work away from, to be given away without their permission. That's immoral - a creator should always be able to control his creation until such time as he gives it away.

While obviously I agree that a creator should have a say in how their creation is used, and certainly I'd like people to make a living via creating software, my point was that neither copyrights nor patents protect an idea. And if the cracker wanted to create instead of alter, nothing is stopping he or she from doing so.

Additionally, with your last statement, I take issue with the word "always." The point of giving a creator any protection via the law for creating a work is the agreement that after a sufficient time, that work will become part of the public domain. I know this idea has been nearly forgotten, since no work made since 1923 has entered the public domain in what? decades?

The problem with software as opposed to something like literature is that even if a piece of software comes into the public domain, it is not in an immediately useful form: i.e., without source code.

But realistically, those people pirating software are not doing it because of some moral outrage over the state of intellectual property rights, but a much simpler issue of economics. If I remember anything from econ, it is that the higher an item is priced, the more of a black market will be created. Price an item low enough and people will buy it on impulse. Isn't this the whole argument behind digital media files?

What prompted my devil's advocate reply is simply that I take great issue with someone claiming what is immoral or moral in such absolute terms. If we take a ethical framework such as utilitarianism, we might easily conclude that the right of software developers to profit from their creations takes a back seat to the good that people as a whole get from using it.

As a developer, I've decided to forgo the whole issue and only release freeware. But I fully recognize and support that not everyone has that luxury.

Jon

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

06-20-2007, 12:33 AM

I can't prove these numbers either, but I will confidently suggest that much less than one percent of material downloaded is ever used (think about it: life isn't long enough to make use of all that people can/do easily download from these kinds of sites; much is downloaded for bragging rights).
You make a great point that we can't prove how many of these downloads are actually being used which is why Alex, in his letter, estimates that about 10% of those downloads may have been legitimate sales had the cracked version not existed. Of course that number is difficult to prove as well, but consider this, the Warez site is very popular judging from the sheer number of downloads. There are several legitimate sites where users can download trial versions. Someone went through the trouble to crack those titles and load them up to this site for a reason... and I'd safely guess that the majority of users who visit the site understand that "benefit"... especially if some siteowners are actually asking for (and receiving) donations to support the site.

if people weren't comsuming free music from the industry-signed "stars", they'd be downloading free music from independent musicians and being exposed to a whole 'nother universe of musicians.

So, from that perspective, these people had better be careful about what they hope for.
Apples-to-Oranges comparison. The alternative in this case is freeware utlities and programs. For many of these titles, if better options existed, they'd be dominant already in my opinion. It's possible someone could decide to create freeware alternatives if current software companies decided to shut down, but I'd venture to guess I'm not in the minority by stating that I'd prefer that the original companies remain profitable, stick around and continue supporting their great titles.

Gerard

06-20-2007, 12:41 AM

Besides, this is all theoretical since there never was a "true" communist society where all resources were fairly distributed amongst the people. Human nature makes that an impossibility.

Perhaps more productive not to be quite so pessimistic about human nature.

I prefer to maintain a slightly less jaded view of human/animal nature, that with the right stimulus, namely a real education - not a rubber stamped one, framed and nailed on the wall and ready for The Enterprise, but a deep and moral education based on complete disclosure in a non-hierarchical, anti-authoritarian learning environment - we can hope for a better tomorrow.

{edited: made a comment in bad taste, then thought the better of it}

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 01:12 AM

If there's one thing that this digital age has shown me, it's that morally, most people are quite immature. They will avoid things if they think they'll get caught - meaning they won't steal from a retail store - but if there's no fear of repercussion, they're all too happy to take something. That's the level of morality that a child operates on - they won't disobey their parent by taking a cookie if the parent is in the room and they know they'll get caught, but if they can get that cookie later when no one is around, they'll take it.

I would tend to agree with you here, Jason, however, there's one thing I'd add to that. To those that argue that pirating is easier, there's examples like WebIS, whose software is quite easily to obtain legitimately, arguably even easier than pirating it. I think that in conjunction with being able to get away with it is not just that people can get away with it, is that many people don't budget for software. They'll budget for food, rent, utilities, a car, etc. but they don't plan for software. Combined with a desire to have, but not having the capacity to pay for it, they turn to pirating. Part of the solution must include a way to help educate people on setting aside part of their budget to purchase the software they want/need, and/or learn to live with what's available freely. And I mean, legitimately free. Without that, there will always be too much of a temptation to "keep up with the joneses" but not being able to afford it leaving the only avenue left to them, piracy. :(

JamesS

06-20-2007, 01:33 AM

I think that in conjunction with being able to get away with it is not just that people can get away with it, is that many people don't budget for software. They'll budget for food, rent, utilities, a car, etc. but they don't plan for software.

Someone may not budget for a new shirt, but they wouldn't walk into a clothes shop and steal it. Why is downloading a pirate version of PI any different? I believe it still comes down to the fact that they think they can get away with it.

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

ScottC

06-20-2007, 01:40 AM

I don't know how to say this without insulting Alex, because I think he is one of the better developers out there. But in this day and age you just can't have your cake and eat it.

You can't hate piracy and drm/license protection at the same time.

If all you rely on is a simple key then you make it too easy. I've seen too many developers go the "be nice" route, only to lose 1000's in revenue.

I'm afraid that nowadays you pretty much HAVE to install some pretty decent copyright protection on your software.

One thing he of course has to keep in mind is that not every theft of his product = loss of revenue. The vast majority of these thieves would never have become a paying customer anyway, he just makes it easier for them to become one.

Another major factor in todays piracy is the influence of file sharing sites like Rapidshare and Megashare. These sites are the new FTP.

In the old days warez sites would have to scour the web for some ftp space to use, nowadays they just use these sharing sites. And don't be fooled, despite the "we don't tolerate illegal software" warnings, they don't care. They are in it for the traffic and really couldn't care less what you are uploading.

I've spent almost $700 in PPC software for my 2 devices, and will continue to do so as long as people like WebIS deliver quality software, but unless he (and the rest of the development community) do something about piracy the problem is only going to get larger.

In an ideal world Microsoft would implement some form of application privacy protection on their devices, something that all developers can use, that isn't intrusive to users.

virain

06-20-2007, 01:47 AM

Part of the solution must include a way to help educate people on setting aside part of their budget to purchase the software they want/need, and/or learn to live with what's available freely. And I mean, legitimately free. Without that, there will always be too much of a temptation to "keep up with the joneses" but not being able to afford it leaving the only avenue left to them, piracy. :(

I can agree add disagree with this statement at the same time. You can educate people as much as you'd like, still Darwin's law of nature will apply here, I mean - Survival of the fittest. So if someone offers you either to pay or get for free the same item. Most of us (less educated) will choose free. That goes for the fight for "survival" between commercial developers and warez. If anyone want's to survive in the market place such as software, should consider not super locks and regestrations for their product, but "premium content" such can be a customer support. Because people will gladly pay to feel themself special, after all we leave a tip in a restaurant not to a chef who makes the food, but to a waiter who serves it. And that's why people gladly donate to pirate download sites.

As for a topic above about Communism, the reason it has failed that it goes against the laws of NATURE, we only humans as long we compete and create. Long Live Capitalism! :wink:

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

Gerard

06-20-2007, 02:05 AM

...Darwin's law of nature will apply here, I mean - Survival of the fittest.
Darwin wrote of and studied 'survival by adaptation' - survival of the fittest is a misconstrual of his science, and unfortunately a rather popular misrepresentation. Creatures adapt to new conditions, or they tend to fail. In that sense, to 'fit' is to adapt, but 'fittest' in the common parlance today has a more mundane meaning. It's usually interpreted as 'toughest' which has nothing to do with evolution at large. Often it's the tiniest and most obviously 'weak' organisms which thrive best, depending on the environmental factors at hand. Witness the aphid. Thriving to a ridiculous degree, and yet they're so easy to kill it's practically funny.

virain

06-20-2007, 02:10 AM

Darwin wrote of and studied 'survival by adaptation' - survival of the fittest is a misconstrual of his science, and unfortunately a rather popular misrepresentation.

So, you pretty much proved my point. Some small time "pirate" with cheap loptop can be more succesful in distributing software, than big well established developer. And make money of donations at the same time. Thank you
And by the way, did you noticed that species that lock in size, most of the times gain in numbers. It gives room for more changes in Behaviour and genetic makeup. That's why cockroaches outlived dinosaurs. In nature, size doesn't matter

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 03:25 AM

Because people will gladly pay to feel themself special, after all we leave a tip in a restaurant not to a chef who makes the food, but to a waiter who serves it. And that's why people gladly donate to pirate download sites.

Yeah, unfortunately, most people will choose free when provided with the option, and there is minimal or no immediate apparent impact. In that, I mean that in pirating software, a grand majority of the time, people don't get caught, and there's usually no immediate feedback saying "Hey, you pirated! The keystone cops are the guys knocking on your door!"

One example of what I was trying to say, is that our desires outstrip our means, much like how many of us live in debt. Mind you, there are people who are in debt for honourable reasons, but there is a portion of us, and I'd say a large chunk, who are in debt because we sometimes can't say no. If we can reinforce a culture which discourages this, not likely, I think it would help reduce, not eliminate piracy.

But that doesn't disagree with your argument though. Still, with no immediate, apparent repercussions, most people will choose free over fee. I don't think that "premium content" is the solution though. Well, not for everything, and perhaps not for much in terms of Windows Mobile software, except maybe those which require constant developer/customer interaction, like a news service. Otherwise, an application like a shopping list, can just as easily be made "premium" as it could be pirated if it was all or nothing.

As for a topic above about Communism, the reason it has failed that it goes against the laws of NATURE, we only humans as long we compete and create. Long Live Capitalism! :wink:

I don't think it goes against all the laws of nature as I see "hives" as natural and successful. Yes, I know, it's not pure Communism. But we humans, yah, Capitalism definately is more successful.

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

nosmohtac

06-20-2007, 03:34 AM

I understand exactly where Alex is coming from, and I don't want to see his software not continue to develop. I recently purchased Flexmail for my Moto Q. Alex offers a two week evaluation (which for a product like flexmail is IMHO plenty of time to trial) and I decided to purchase his software over another that had a 4MB download limit before having to purchase. Depending on which day I try to sync my email, I might not have gotten one full email before the trial was over. How do I get a real feel for a piece of software with a limitation like this.

I liked some of the features of the other program better than flexmail, but I couldn't give my money to that developer over WebIS strictly on the issue of trial period. I'm not going to pay for a software program that I don't get to trial and see if It works for me as claimed by the developer.

I have spent hundreds of dollars on WM software, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I have also downloaded and used cracked software. Do I know that it's stealing? Yes! Do I consider myself a thief? No!

I get quite frustrated with some of the developers out there offering ridiculous trials or no trials at all. The other frustration, as others here have mentioned, is the horrible registration procedures for software I paid for. I won't purchase Tom Tom and others for this very reason. That is not to say that I run a cracked copy of their software either.

I have used cracked software to try out programs beyond the trial period for a few reasons: 1 The trial period, although likely long enough for many people, didn't give me enough time to realize if the benefits of using the program justified the purchase of it. 2 The program looked really good but the developer only allowed a couple of days to try it, only allowed you to open the program a couple of times or only allowed you very limited functionality with the trial program.

I do believe that most of the downloads of cracked software never get used on a daily basis (if they ever actually get installed on a device) and don't result in lost sales as they were never going to become sales.

I know people who have 50,000 + songs all downloaded from file sharing sites, but they will likely never listen to them all. I beleive they do it for bragging rights, and I believe that the majority of cracked software downloads are the same way. They don't get installed but are on many people's hard drives for bragging rights.

I, on the other hand, can honestly say that using cracked software has actually caused me to spend more money on WM software than if I had never used the cracked software. Why? Because after using a software program for a while, if it is a program I decide I want to leave on my device, then I purchase it. I don't care if this is not acceptable in your eyes. It's not that I don't care about the law, but I'm not going to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on software that looked good but i will never use again. A previous post explained the difficulty that is often faced when trying to get a refund on software downloaded over the internet.

I know that I may be in the minority in this situation, but I am not the kind of person who needs to one up others and has to download every available piece of software and carry it around on my phone even if I only use it once a year to show someone what my phone can do! I only purchase and install software that I am going to use frequently.

alex_kac

06-20-2007, 03:50 AM

Open Letter to Alex:

A couple of months ago I bought two licences of FlexMail from you. After using the trial for a couple of days and some testing.

Shortly after buying the software all my eMails and my eMail settings disappeared. After some reading in your forums I realized its a bug that was quite common. And quite a lot of people complaining.

Here is my side on that. From what we can see on our end, the reason behind emails and settings going away for *most* people had *almost* absolutely nothing to do with our software, but with the data being on a storage card. Now I say almost because what the problem was was that we kept those databases and files open for reading/writing and frankly Windows Mobile can totally destroy those files if they are open when you put your device to sleep. We put in quite a bit of work to try and make sure this didn't happen, but finally we had to tell people to simply put all their data and settings in Main Memory. When people did this, 90% of them told us their issue was solved for the data. For the settings file some still had the issue, but we couldn't reproduce the problem. We also wrote a decent explanation for this in the docs. It took months to deduce this issue as it was different for every PPC/SD card combination. And as I said, it still happened for a few people after that.

This is one of the major reasons that why for the next release we decided to get rid of the settings file and rework the databases so they didn't have to be open while the app is open. It has a nice by-product of starting much faster too.

I asked you to refund my money. Well, you denied the refund and asked for log files in return. I spent already hours in restoring the devices, there were not logfiles anymore. You made it clear you would NOT refund as long as you did not get logfiles and detailed error descriptions.

You are right, we rarely initiate a refund in most cases because we offer a trial for two weeks and many years ago we got hit by too many people who would buy the software and then ask for an immediate refund and then continue using the software. So our support won't do refunds most of the time.

In the end it was Handango that refunded one of two licences.

Alex, I bought roughly a hundred PPC shareware products. And only in three occasions I asked for a refund. In your case it was the only time a developer did not react properly to the refund request.

I know your products are very well known, used by quite a lot of people and very well rated. Still, in my case it was the attitude of your company that really gave me a huge disappointment. Even if the bug would be caused by another third party software (which I frankly do not believe in this case) - a refund should be always possible.

Actually it is. If the request comes to me (forwarded from support), 90% of the time I'll approve a refund. Honestly we only get a handful of requests a month total and our support guys can be pretty hardline on that because we're afraid of being taken advantage of. Is it a great process? No. I used to grant refunds for anyone who asked no questions asked (well if they purchased less than 2-3 months before - some guy used PI for something like 18 months and then asked for a refund because it didn't support his new device a couple years ago). But when we got bit by the refund-but-use scam that time I decided we had to put in an obstacle course to make sure it was worth a refund to the person. I don't like it, but when you deal with unscrupulous people everyone seem to suffer in some way. I'll be quite open about it and tell you that I'd really like to offer a 30-day money back guarantee but I'm really gun-shy because people will take advantage of easy-to-use refund processes.

End of story? I ordered VoiceMinder a couple of weeks later and I am happy with that product. No problems so far :)

Conclusion? Alex, its all about upgrades and customer service. That is the KEY reason I spent thousands of dollars on PPC shareware. I happily pay my upgrade prices unless they are not over exaggerated (e.g. SOTI) and I love to participate in feature requests etc.

And I agree.

virain

06-20-2007, 04:10 AM

Yahdie

06-20-2007, 04:20 AM

Some Thoughts:
There are a lot of places in the world were $20USD is a lot of money,and before you ask what are people doing with a windows mobile device, if they can't afford software at that price level, consider the possible perfectly legitimate ways.
People in these locations often don't have the ability to make an online payment if they wanted to - no credit cards.
Also, they rationalise (without considering the impact of their actions, in aggragate) that who in this prosperous nation of ours will even notice the loss of $20 of revenue?
So, without defending, anyone maybe offering the product with local pricing, may be worth examining....

Finally, I'm the happy& satisfied owner of copies of Alex's organiser apps for my Smartphone & my PPC Phone Edition WM5 devices, for PI I am on my 3rd upgrade, I think.
Developers, keep it up, we appreciate your products, and we your customers will keep coming back for more.

Pixelnose

06-20-2007, 04:22 AM

Yep -- it's bad and getting worse. I recently found one site, based in eastern europe, that provides warez, yet has the gall to ask for donations to keep the site going.

Soon nobody will be able to earn a living programming for Mobile platforms, and the only software will be open-source projects, or small apps written by hobbyist programmers, or spyware/trojans writtten by the underworld.

And shareware? nah! I once wrote a nifty app for OSX as shareware, and got only one payment, despite hundreds of thousands of downloads.

So, what is the solution?

Yup, I know that site. What we can do about such sites is complain to the Payment systems providers. I'm pretty sure charities for Warez sites is against the TOS. As for the webhosting, those people aren't bothered at all.

It's nothing more than a minor annoyance for such sites, but it's better than doing nothing.

I was cruising one such "discussion forum" and they are very complimentary of my husband's (Juni) skins. Gee thanks, and not one of you bought it. 4 stinken' euros and somehow you can afford to donate to the good cause of piracy, and not afford the product you seem to enjoy using.

Talk about a backhanded compliment. Any developers ever have someone ask for support from whom it was apparent that they were using warez? We have.

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 04:29 AM

Yeah, unfortunately, most people will choose free when provided with the option, and there is minimal or no immediate apparent impact. In that, I mean that in pirating software, a grand majority of the time, people don't get caught, and there's usually no immediate feedback saying "Hey, you pirated! The keystone cops are the guys knocking on your door!"

So you beileve that scaring people to scaring people to submission is the way to go? Pay or byte a bullet? Check back with the history, how many times prohibition fail? ALWAYS! Every action create equal reaction.
That's what help to take off Microsoft 25-30 years ago and win majority of the market over Apple. "You FREE to build any hardware you like as long as it meets minimum reqs for our software" And it still works. Look an PPC success.

I do not think that negative reinforcement is the only option, but it is an option that I do think should be used in conjunction with many other methods (like, uh, positive reinforcement) to create an environment that encourages the grand majority of people to follow the desired "path".

History is replete with examples of how prohibition can fail and succeed. For every failed prohibition in the United States in the 20's, there's the concept of sins within almost every religion. Each is successful to a degree. I do think there is a place for it, in so much as if people believed that there we no repercussions for their actions at all, society would be severely compromised.

As for "premium content" I didn't say long term support, updates and so on. I said "make people to feel they are speacial" That is the difference, as it is not Necessarily requires long term comitment.

If I may paraphrase, you're talking about good customer support. In that, I'll say I completely agree that it's definately a huge incentive to pay for software.

And going to "hives".... We are not that type of species. We pass that period already. It works for bees, as they have their place in their bee society based on birth If you born a working bee you are untill you dead. In human society we had something like that during feudalism. If you born a king you are born to rule, if your parents are pesants, that's your destiny.
And I am for the right of choice

My reference to hives was to illustrate how there are examples in nature that mimic much of what Communism is about, and thus, could be considered just as much a natural process as is Capitalism. And yeah, I don't think that being "born" into a particular role is necessairily a good idea. But by the same token, I was born male Asian. Barring certain surgery, I can't change either of those (and genetically, I still wouldn't change.) but that should NEVER stop me from at the very least, trying to be an artist, developer, manager, fry cook or CEO, as what someone is "born" as should never stop them from aspiring and attempting to be who they want to be.

virain

06-20-2007, 04:45 AM

My reference to hives was to illustrate how there are examples in nature that mimic much of what Communism is about, and thus, could be considered just as much a natural process as is Capitalism. And yeah, I don't think that being "born" into a particular role is necessairily a good idea. But by the same token, I was born male Asian. Barring certain surgery, I can't change either of those (and genetically, I still wouldn't change.) but that should NEVER stop me from at the very least, trying to be an artist, developer, manager, fry cook or CEO, as what someone is "born" as should never stop them from aspiring and attempting to be who they want to be.
As bees from any other bee families have oportunity to collect pollen from all flowers not only from one kind of them. That is a social structure issue not racial. Don't change the subject

And as far as Communism goes. Simple example:If that many people create same amount of software doing the same function who would decide which is the best and should be implemented? In capitalism society it is open market, What about communism? Bunch of old guys? "elected" buy other bunch of old guys who believes they have that right for one or another reason? And what happens with other developers whos software didn't pass the test? In Capitalism, again, market decides, some will work for more successful developer others move in a different fields based on their abilities and FINANCIAL needs so they still become a useful members of society. And in Communism? As everyone is intitled to everything, they will continue to produce useless stuff with no benefits for society. Or maybe you would force them to sweep street instead?

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 05:11 AM

As bees from any other bee families have oportunity to collect pollen from all flowers not only from one kind of them. That is a social structure issue not racial. Don't change the subject

I'm unsure, but I think we're not on the same page then. This is what I was referring to:

As for a topic above about Communism, the reason it has failed that it goes against the laws of NATURE, we only humans as long we compete and create. Long Live Capitalism!

My comment with regards to that portion of the post was that there are examples of Communism like behaviour in Nature both reinforced genetically and socially, and thus I disagreed with your statement that Communism goes against the laws of nature. Difference of interpretation, that's all. In fact, I agree with you in that Capitalism, at least with human societies, will beat out Communism almost every time. :)

Jason Dunn

06-20-2007, 05:46 AM

...my point was that neither copyrights nor patents protect an idea. And if the cracker wanted to create instead of alter, nothing is stopping he or she from doing so.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. I'm not saying that because developer ABC created "Digital Wallet ABC" that someone can't come along and create a freeware version called "Digital Wallet XYZ". Piracy and copyright/patent issues are very different in my mind. If someone wants to create a freeware version of a popular commercial app, I say go for it! The developers who make commercial apps will have to just work harder to earn our money - but I don't think you'll find any of them complaining about that.

The issue is someone taking their product, without their permission, and without compensation.

...I take great issue with someone claiming what is immoral or moral in such absolute terms.

I think that, as with most things in life, it's impossible for any of us to really understand or appreciate what a commercial developer goes through as they deal with piracy. It's easy for you to say it's not a big deal because you're a student (presumably) and develop freeware. In all of the nay-saying in this thread and over at Smartphone Thoughts, I haven't seen a single commercial developer say that piracy "isn't a big deal" like some people here are saying. Classic armchair quarterbacking - it's not a big deal until the developer who makes the software you like using goes out of business...

Jason Dunn

06-20-2007, 06:15 AM

Hey, this is a great discussion and all, but please: have some respect for people reading this thread on a mobile device and trim your quotes. Some of you are quoting two and three messages before adding your own. Please, trim your quotes down to the bare minimum. Thank you.

applestar

06-20-2007, 08:04 AM

We put in quite a bit of work to try and make sure this didn't happen, but finally we had to tell people to simply put all their data and settings in Main Memory. When people did this, 90% of them told us their issue was solved for the data.

Alex, thank you for being that clear. In my case it happened even with the database on the device. And yes, there could have been thousands of good reasons why that happened, not necessarily FlexMail.

You are right, we rarely initiate a refund in most cases because we offer a trial for two weeks and many years ago we got hit by too many people who would buy the software and then ask for an immediate refund and then continue using the software. So our support won't do refunds most of the time.

There are probably a lot of people doing that. Well, since I buy most of my software via the big software resellers they would find out quite soon if I try that.

Still there is a point in this and probably the best solution to all: activation codes for installation. Has to be entered for the first installation on a new or cleared device and will be read and online-checked from the device at every update. So its still a one-time manual entry only.

The activation code would not be device or user-name specific. And the developer would see how many activations were made. This in conjunction with a hardware device identifier could even be used by more than one developer: if an activation code gets used way too often, all corresponding hardware-IDs could be blocked for other vendor products. This would never hurt a legal customer - and keep people from trying out other codes.

And for my special case with FlexMail: At a refund you just revoke the activation ID completely. No more "refund-but-use" guys.

Well, of course this could be "cracked" - but then every update has to be cracked as well.

I see a got point with Rescos key system. You get 1 year of free updates, then you pay again. sometimes I skip a new version but then after some time I go for the update. Weakness of their scheme: Its a key, not an activation code.

tabenate

06-20-2007, 09:07 AM

I think people pirate software because they're tired of not getting the right customer support when the software doesn't work.

I had an issue once with syncing my Quicken software with a finance program on my WM5 and the answer I got is "We currently do not support your version of Quicken".

Did you not try the software out before buying? If not, you really have yourself to blame.

Second, if you didn't get good customer service AND moreover the software didn't satisfy you, why is that an argument FOR piracy?
To me it's more the reason to abandon that software instead.

Oh, I get it now... it's a preemptive strike on your part! Since you are not certain that the software will function like you want, and perhaps the support won't be great - at least you won't have lost a dime.

How cynical.

martin_ayton

06-20-2007, 09:51 AM

We can spend a lot of time and bandwidth debating the rights and wrongs of this, but none of that energy is likely to change the situation in any significant way, or for any significant time. My point is that, at this stage in the Windows Mobile life cycle (as in any other relatively mature, large software market) the pay-per-licence model is broken.

Don't get me wrong: Developers deserve to be paid for what they produce, and if what they produce is good enough, they deserve to do well out of it. However, charging for a licence is just not working as a means to provide that income stream. Sadly, people will steal if they feel they can get away with it {Jason's point} or if there is no face-to-face interaction {Gerard's} so rather than crying about it let's do what good developers and engineers do: Come up with a different and better solution.

Here's my (non-original) suggestion: Make the software free, but charge for support. No more free support forum access. No more free 'phone calls. No quick response via e-mail unless you pay. Do a nice deal with the initial software download: "If you buy the support package up front along when you download the software, we'll give you 6 months support forum access for the price of 3." People are less likely to give away their support access because it isn't reproducible, and even if they do, who cares? It's time or usage limited. If I'm paying for it though, the support had better be stellar!!

Dom is at least trying to re-engineer the model with his suggestions of web apps, although I personally think that idea is premature: Coverage is too patchy, and bandwidth not wide enough. Yet. He would also have to come up with a smooth, non-intrusive revenue model too: I sure wouldn't use a web app if every time I connected I had to login with my credit card details (to use an extreme example).

Somebody out there has even better ideas. Can we discuss those?

[Edit: Changed a word to make it make more sense :) ]

Cybrid

06-20-2007, 10:47 AM

I should say;
All businesses are vulnerable to shrink. I work retail formerly at Seven-Eleven, now with a large drugstore chain. I've seen flea markets selling cheap batteries with 7-11 price tags still on them.
Recently a team of "pros " hit us three days in a row...clearing out entire shelves. Finally caught part of the team. Forced him to remove all the merchandise hidden in his shirt... nearly a $1000 worth of makeup. This one guy alone has probably cost us $60,000plus. Hard to imagine but very true. Is this guy using that makeup? Not likely. He's reselling, to a market of greedy consumers who'd rather pay 1/2 price for stolen merchandise than think of the moral and economic consequence. Who's it hurt? Some big company with money coming out the Wazoo? This same mentally defective reasoning applies to software piracy. They are unable or unwilling to see how this crime has a victim.
If you'd ever like to lower your opinions of humanity, try the Flea Markets, Seedier parts of town and look at the "too good to be true" deals.

How $60,000 you say?
Example: Item costs $2.50 wholesale, is now sold @ $5.00. $2.50 gross profit pays everything from building lease, lighting and most importantly wages (mine :)). Realistically a store would be lucky to make 0.5% Net but lets figure 5% Net.
Item gets stolen...our costs (95%) remain the same...It takes 19 other sales to make up for one stolen item. 5%x19=95%. So 20x the investment to break even. Where did that money come from?
People don't see/ understand that.

As far as copy protection and all that...All the expensive stuff is now locked up...pretty signs request that "Please ask at counter"...sales for said items since...$0 or close to.

Alex, Your software is amazing. Please continue developing. I have every confidence that you'll be able to find a balance between copy protection and excellent customer service.
I can only hope, that after sampling warez some of these consumers will develop a taste for quality and understand how that comes with a price.

Down8

06-20-2007, 11:08 AM

... or small apps written by hobbyist programmers...Those are the best ones. :)

-bZj

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 03:25 PM

Here's my (non-original) suggestion: Make the software free, but charge for support.

I like the idea, but I think that even the free customers would require some nominal level of support, so where does one draw the link? Hopefully, if the software is good enough, it won't require much support, but if it's complicated, a new user, who tries out the software without any support could get frustrated with it, and then think that the software is horrible.

I think the software is free, charge for support would work if your software is targeted toward businesses, but for individuals, I think that the costs in providing the software would outstrip the revenue. Some professionals would pay for the support, sure, but a lot would either try to find alternate means of support (Google) or just giev up on the software. Sort of like how RedHat manages things.

I agree, that the pay-per-license model is broken, or at least, only works to a very limited degree. It tends to punish and provide annoyances for legitimate users over illegal ones, and adds to the development cost. I'm wary about any sort of "phone home" solution as well. Privacy, connectivity, etc. rear their heads with that idea.

Maybe if some nominal support was provided for free, but advanced support, professional services, newsletters on improving their use of the software, discounts on other software, very easily done upgrades, etc. All manner of value added services in addition to support could be enough of an incentive?

jgrnt1

06-20-2007, 03:46 PM

It is a moral and legal issue. If somebody creates something, whether software, other intellectual property or something physical and chooses to sell it to others, you have two correct choices -- buy it or don't buy it. Stealing it is morally wrong, even if a particular country doesn't have laws against it.

There was a time when I hadn't thought this through and behaved differently. When Napster (the illegal version) first came out, I thought it was cool that I could download a bunch of music that I might not go out and purchase, often because I wanted just one song from an album. I downloaded a lot of songs. I didn't distribute them. I didn't allow others access to my music collection. However, I downloaded stuff I should have purchased. It was a continuation of the 70's and 80's, when people would copy others' albums to cassettes. I used to have a bunch of them. I have two young boys. When file sharing became a hot topic in the news, but before the RIAA began suing people, I took a long look in the mirror and had to decide what kind of example I wanted to set for my children. I deleted every song I downloaded. Since that time, I paid for and downloaded some tracks I just had to have and then, several months ago, I bought a Creative Zen Vision M and decided to sign up for a Napster subscription. I have a bunch more music now and pay for it every month with my subscription fee. I do not have a single music track I have not paid for. When my children, who see this issue in the news and have friends with loaded mp3 players, ask about this (they are now 11 and 8 ), I can show them the example their father has set and feel good about it.

We have become a "me" society. Many people do things to benefit themselves, regardless of the moral or legal issues. It is a matter of what's right and wrong, not what benefits you.

martin_ayton

06-20-2007, 04:28 PM

Maybe if some nominal support was provided for free, but advanced support, professional services, newsletters on improving their use of the software, discounts on other software, very easily done upgrades, etc. All manner of value added services in addition to support could be enough of an incentive?

There you go - I'd pay for some of that, particularly some tutorials sent by email which could start out with basic hints and tips at initial registration and then get progressively more 'power user' oriented as time went by. And if the initial software download from legitimate sources came bundled with an initial support package for a reasonable fee (which is likely to be lower than what is charged up-front for software at the moment) then I think that answers your identified need for some support to everyone but also provides an obvious benefit to steer people towards legitimate rather than warez sites. Also, the sort of thing you describe lends itself to an annual / repeating fee, which might smooth cashflow for developers: When you think you really know a piece of software, stop paying for support. When the developer releases an upgrade, sign up for support for another period until you've got the new features sorted.

Now, how about some other ideas?

gt24

06-20-2007, 04:43 PM

Two things seem to trip up our "interesting" friends out there. I don't know if they could be implemented without headaches.

(A) Fear of Updates... and many updates...
So, if you have a pirated version of a software program and then you try to update said program... it doesn't work anymore. It throws a fit. Now, this version can be cracked... true... but, that involves finding the new crack. Updates come, add features a person wants, and they cannot get that version for "free". So, they eventually could pay up to stop dealing with these issues.

The problem? Well... other than potentially snaring legitimate users... it takes more effort to manage this type of system.

(B) Inaccessible Updates
Your program on your site is version 3.52 Trial (for an example). Once a person has purchased the program, they can download the actual program from a "members only" area. Updates are only in this area as well. Those updates might still conform to the above idea. So, you once again make updates a bit more difficult to obtain. Also, if one IP address is downloading upteen million copies of your program from the member area... you could inquire as to why.

The problem? Users have to jump through some hoops.

----

Anywho... updates are key. Every new version of your program can be a "new crack" needing to be applied. I'm not sure how difficult this will be. For those that don't use a crack, it shouldn't be a problem... but for those that do, it will be. For those that use a "magical" code on the internet, you can try and blacklist just that code. You are not going to stop piracy this way but you will cause a waiting period to be introduced for pirates... one where they really really want some key features of a new version. Just do your best to advertise what features they are missing out on.

At least, I figured I would present this idea.

Jason Dunn

06-20-2007, 07:59 PM

Here's my (non-original) suggestion: Make the software free, but charge for support. No more free support forum access. No more free 'phone calls. No quick response via e-mail unless you pay.

I appreciate you thinking of solutions, but what if the software doesn't require support? Heck, I consider software a partial failure if I have to email tech support about anything - good software should be stable, trouble-free, and intuitive. So somehow I don't think this would work...

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 08:09 PM

Jason Dunn

06-20-2007, 08:10 PM

When file sharing became a hot topic in the news, but before the RIAA began suing people, I took a long look in the mirror and had to decide what kind of example I wanted to set for my children. I deleted every song I downloaded.

Good for you! Interestingly enough, exactly one year ago today I published this on Digital Media Thoughts:

http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,10527

martin_ayton

06-20-2007, 08:12 PM

I appreciate you thinking of solutions, but what if the software doesn't require support? Heck, I consider software a partial failure if I have to email tech support about anything - good software should be stable, trouble-free, and intuitive. So somehow I don't think this would work...

That is, clearly a major problem with that proposal, though it *might* be overcome by the newsletter idea proposed above. I am certainly not wedded to this solution above all others, but I can't believe that the collective brainpower and demonstrated ingenuity of the PPCuser and develoer community can't come up with an alternative model. Heck, if the RIAA can't enforce copyright this way, what chance do Alex and Dom have?

Here's another proposal: Take a leaf out of Apple's and Motricity's books and embed the users credit card details in the functional download. I wouldn't go posting that info on a warez site! Perhaps, though, this too is too easy to hack...

Hooch Tan

06-20-2007, 08:18 PM

Joking around here, but what if you buy their software, and Alex and Dom automatically add you as friends on your MySpace/Facebook account? :lol:

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

06-20-2007, 09:02 PM

...I can't believe that the collective brainpower and demonstrated ingenuity of the PPCuser and develoer community can't come up with an alternative model.
I just wanted to comment that I really like this sentiment. Personally, I'm a little frustrated with the numerous posts that take the tone of "it can't be fixed and it's not really a problem so get over it!"

The chances of any of us coming up with the solution is slim BUT it shouldn't prohibit any of us from making suggestions or sharing ideas if we have them. Innovation to me is simply an great idea that no one else had thought of previously and we have enough great minds here to at least engage the problem.

Cybrid

06-20-2007, 09:41 PM

How about countermeasures?

These pirates aren't doing it as part of a non-profit charity. What do they gain? How do you deny them that?

While not a fan of the Pocket Mechanic incident. I do think that attempting to collectively undermine large scale piracy efforts could help.
A certain site that I know of and not necessarily the one in question is selling Tees & Hoodies as an additional revenue stream. Why not amuse ourselves by freely distributing stencils of their "work" over their own site. Wouldn't that be appropriate...:?
Planting user comments on file torrents inviting users to go legit.
Planting blizzards of trial software obfuscating the cracked. Finding creative means to attack their revenue, their raison d'etre.
A collective threat to their payment processing company. Support piracy and we will boycott!

psyjohn

06-21-2007, 12:03 AM

Several people here have mentioned support as being an important factor in the user's perceived value of software. What has not been as overtly discussed is the sense of community around some software.

I used to scour the web looking for free apps that would perform the same function as the commercial alternatives. The problem with the freeware was there was no web community around it to turn to for advice, hints, tricks, etc.

The reason I began purchasing my software was the support from developers and fellow users coming together to discuss every aspect of the application. SBSH, Resco, Spb, DinarSoft, and Lakeridge are just a few examples of companies that provide and support a feeling of a shared experience.

A case in point: early last Sunday morning I got up and posted a query regarding PocketWeather on the SBSH forum, expecting to have some useful advice in 2 or 3 days. In less than 10 minutes I had 2 valuable replies, and continued with a dialogue for the next 24 hours. THAT KIND OF SUPPORT is what makes it worthwhile for me to spend hundreds of dollars on software.

One of my favorite apps is HandyShopper, but it is freeware with no support and no updates. I am anxiously awaiting the development of commercial software that can do what that program does. I would gladly pay for something that is nearly an exact copy of what I have for free if I knew it would come with a community support structure.

One final note. What you find with the model I am describing is talented people adding to the software with skins, etc. instead of putting their efforts into cracking it.
:D

06-21-2007, 06:58 AM

Living in a country which is considered as the top-10 intelectual properties offenders, I don't see how the real developers would get our moneys.

Since I also moderate a PPC forum, I see less & less honest people buying softwares. The main reason is because Handango stops accepting credit cards from my country. No matter how much cencorship we put on the warez topics, it will keep on popping up every week.

All big hardware manufacturers now sell millions of smartphones each year. Most of these consumers are quite 'Naive'. These customers won't be yours since most of them don't even have connections/computers to hook them up to the net. Even if you give them free warez they are too inexperience to use them. Instead, now there are many gadget stores who installed warez to the devices either for free or charged.

All of these stores get the softwares from warez sites. They are more than happy to donate to get access to the warez. To ensure continuous supports, some of them buy the softwares legally and then resell them to make profits.

As an example, users are required to pay at least $1 to get an MP3 loaded as ringtone. The going rate for software is about $1 to $2 per application. Sometimes, users are asked to pay up to $100 for a yearly membership fee for an instant access to warez and supports.

Even for ROM updates which are readily available for free, the same 'Naive' users are willing to pay $20 to get their device upgraded.

Like it or not, you can't complain that most paid customers are from US. US users get all the supports they can get. For others, they are more than happy to pay warez resellers for the support.

The bottom line, price is not the real issue, but convenience/service is!

Cheers!

virain

06-21-2007, 11:00 AM

Couple points:
1. More and better service cost money, so it will lead to increase in prices for soft. And we (end users) don't want it.
2. All complicated registrations, check ups during updates, super locks (that you think cannot be broken :wink: right!) will only drive paying customers away.
But I did see few interesting points that worth to be mention:
1. Go after pirates, hit them where it hurts. How? I don't know Put a bug into their server, make site unavailable (that if you can't do anything legal) Fight fire with fire.
2. Convinience - that's a BIG thing, Huge!

Hooch Tan

06-21-2007, 03:19 PM

Thanks SJ for a peek into how things work in another country. (I'm not from the US, but Canada, but it's pretty much the same thing.) I had no idea that things could operate like that, and I find it fascinating how that culture has developed. I couldn't figure out who would donate to warez sites. Now I do.

For virain's points:
1) I agree wholeheartedly that complicated registrations, etc. don't really deter pirates as pretty much almost every copy protection can be cracked. It just makes moer hoops for legitimate customers.
2) As for going after pirates, one possibility, but that's doing it vigilante style, would be to use the same kind of resources that the priates/spammers have. That is, to create a network of zombie computers and blast the DNS servers, or some other sort of DDOS attack. From what I've seen in the news, they, meaning spammers in particular, have enough computing resources to take down almost any site they choose, like what they did to BlueFrog. I'm not advocating it, as I don't know the legality of trying something like this, but that's probably the best route to go if one wanted to do it.

Oleander

06-21-2007, 11:46 PM

First off, I would like to state that I buy all the software that I use. Heck, I'm even the owner of PI 2007 and FlexMail 2007 (updates from earlier versions). Somewhere I have Flexwallet despite never ever having used that one (eWallet rocks!) and not using either PI or FlexMail. I've updated the above, because they are dirt cheap and on the off chance that someday I might need them. Besides, I think we really need cool programs like that and just that is worth paying for. I also currently have 6000 pts on my Handango account and steadily working towards the 10000 pts. :)

Being from Europe, I'm also the proud owner of a US mail address (not electronic) and a matching telephone #. I even had a US Visa matching the address once (cancelled in the aftermath of 9/11). Why?
Because like SJ, not being from the US, I've been "hustled" more times than I care to remember. The "fun" part is, that the only thing that's dead sure is the payment. When I tried to get the software or support, nothing! Some have even been so "kind" as to tell me that they don't sell "overseas". Uhm, ok, then why did you take my money?

I never have had that kind of hassle happening to me when I bought software from Russia (no, I mean the legit stuff), the Czech Republic or somewhere in asia where I hardly understand their homepages..

Although I don't condone of it, I can totally understand why people won't go thru the hoops to get a chance to buy their software, but instead are just choosing the path of least resistance....
I'm pretty sure I would go ballistic if Handango some day in the future decided to cancel my account due to the fact that my credit card was from an "unsafe place".

I don't think that there's anything that can be done to get totally rid of pirates and I really think that DRM is a very stupid step in the wrong direction. You don't win over people by using the stick, it's the carrot thingie that's needed.
I have more than once bought products that were useless (non compliant cd's and unplayable mp3's) wich just makes me check the label extra carefully now, and if it's not usable, then that's a lost sale.

Instead, please, oh please! Just make it easier to gain access to the software and give the best support possible, and then I believe people will gradually come.

A bit off topic, but an excellent example of something that would probably just be easier to go grab off some warez site...

Right now, I'm trying to get a chance to pay for this program:

http://www.s-gps.com/gps2ge/

All 3 resellers don't seem to have it anymore (can't buy it) and Schloen does not respond to emails. Anyone here who knows a reseller or an alternative program?

Cybrid

06-22-2007, 07:29 PM

2) As for going after pirates, one possibility, but that's doing it vigilante style, would be to use the same kind of resources that the priates/spammers have. That is, to create a network of zombie computers and blast the DNS servers, or some other sort of DDOS attack. From what I've seen in the news, they, meaning spammers in particular, have enough computing resources to take down almost any site they choose, like what they did to BlueFrog. I'm not advocating it, as I don't know the legality of trying something like this, but that's probably the best route to go if one wanted to do it.Not legal. Taking down a DNS server affects legitimate customers too. Also not sustainable and subject to retaliation.

A site I've seen, is a torrent site. It isn't monitored by who runs it. Asks for donations, sells merchandise with their logo. How to attack them quasi-legally?

Load tons of legit trialware. If it took you 30+ downloads to find a specific cracked software...would you revisit the site? Eats bandwidth$$$
I've seen comments on some files, *virus! crapware! spyware!* Some up loaders are spammers/ other criminals hoping to snare naïve users.
How about "Caution: This stolen software contains atleast one virus trojan.verA.bad nasty thing. The person who did, did this to steal CPU time/ credit info/ personal data from you.
I'm the real developer of software, I didn't do it, don't like who did...I'd like you to be careful and purchase from ww.my site.com. Guaranteed virus free. only $9.95." Advertises you. Educates users. Gives them one last chance to do good.
Site sells site branded merchandise. How about uploading 100's of how to's on making your own similarily logo'ed shirt? Or cheap iron on stencils for a fraction of the "official pirate site" price. Watch a pirate suddenly support copyrights and trademark. :)
Find their hosting, support network, payment processing companies. Contact others who use same services. Organize a protest against...Don't publicly advertise but if you found several companies whose business those hosting, support network, payment processing companies value and convinced them to apply pressure...
E.g. I find hosting company has client A,B and C, who've been upto now unaware they've been sharing servers with pirates (possibly being affected by them too.) I convince all to leave hosting company, giving eloquent reason why. How long before a hosting company suddenly gets the idea hosting pirates=bad for business? Similar pressure on all aspects of online business would put a crimp on a pirates ability to operate.

Nothing illegal, mostly...But lets see a pirate claim intellectual property rights. :lol:

Hooch Tan

06-22-2007, 07:46 PM

Not legal. Taking down a DNS server affects legitimate customers too. Also not sustainable and subject to retaliation.

I was apprehensive about its legality, but thanks for clearing it up.

A site I've seen, is a torrent site. It isn't monitored by who runs it. Asks for donations, sells merchandise with their logo. How to attack them quasi-legally?

To add to your list. One possibility, though it would be kind of tricky, would be the poison the torrents. I know that torrent chunks are checked by hash, but hashes are not 100% verification, and if one sent an invalid chunk with the same hash, it could help invalidate that torrent for everyone trying to pirate. Similar to how the RIAA/MPAA would seed the older P2P networks with bad files.

Nothing illegal, mostly...But lets see a pirate claim intellectual property rights. :lol:

That would be funny to see! But if they're getting most of their revenue from donations, we'd need to find a way to attack that. But again, going this route, while I think is necessary, just goes into an arms race. We'd still need to find many more ways to encourage people to go the legit route. I guess sending out a picture of "Every time you pirate software, god kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens." wouldn't work either.

virain

06-22-2007, 11:33 PM

SJ made a good point. From some "unsafe" countries it is hard to make a payment to "safe" retailer. Why not to try to work with pirates from those places first, Offer them to go legit, as a distributor first, and if it doesn't work, hit them where it hurts. This worked in securities market. Joe Kenney, notorius insde trader was put in charge of SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) and did a great job cleaning up market practicies. I f you pirate see that he can make more, legit, and have some perks, he would be your guard dog agains other pirates, as he wants to protect his domain. And who if not a pirate knows better, how to do that? "send a thief to catch a thief"

mightymission

06-23-2007, 03:07 AM

You know what? I honestly don't care. You whine about piracy for your Voiceminder @ 9.95. I bought that POS program from you guys and you offered NO SUPPORT whatsoever. No pages where a customer could find out how to get it to work and when I emailed for help you guys basically told me to get lost. So I don't feel bad for your company at all.

Cybrid

06-23-2007, 08:52 AM

dsilver

06-23-2007, 11:12 AM

As a longtime software addict, I have given this subject much thought over more years then I care to own up to. I have sampled cracked software and have always wound up purchasing what I use on a regular basis. I'm not claiming to be a poster child for software etiquette, but I do feel that my behavior is typical of many users. I have purchased many programs that I wind up not using at all after a short period of time - because I am often "gui-struck." If it looks pretty, it must be good. Silly me.

Software developers need to keep economic reality in mind. Though many people may like and desire a program that costs $35 - $40, many will not pay that much for software - no matter what the intrinsic value. It seems to me that if licensing costs are "reasonable," legitimate purchases will increase. I can certainly appreciate the amount of time that goes in to developing a quality program, and I definitely feel that the author(s) should be compensated for their efforts. Unlike the pharmaceutical companies, they shouldn't expect to recoup all efforts in several hundred registrations. Why do people purchase drugs from Canada and other more reasonable sources? But, I digress...

Another reasonable compromise that I have found personally convicting is to offer a trial period of the the full product that shrinks to a limited feature version after the trial period. I have seen this done many times and have found that most authors don't know how to do it properly. When you look at feature comparison pages - full vs light - only a few advanced functions differentiate the two. In the case of a program like FlexMail, after the first 2 weeks, let people view their email from that period - but not send or receive any future messages. To show off the beauty of Flex, include a gorgeous html message in the initial download/installation that contains every feature the program has to offer.

Just a few droppings from a mind with major continence problems...

sofene

06-23-2007, 03:07 PM

I would like to sympathise with programmers on the issue of pirated apps but my experience as a legit user leaves me not so sympathetic.

I often upgrade my hardware and some of those times I find I need to re-download and re-install a few of the apps I own only to find that I cannot because it's been more than 3 months since I paid for it. I am asked to pay some more to redownload.

Recently I paid for Wordbook from Transcreative for my Jasjar and found I could not activate it because I had paid for the smartphone version instead. All mails to Transcreative went unreplied even though I had bought two other apps from them earlier. I had no alternative than to install the smartphone version that has no touchscreen surport.

These are the type of practices that would lead people to seek for cracks.

bnycastro

06-27-2007, 07:58 AM

This might be slightly off topic: I reside in the Philippines. A 3rd world country with high cases of credit card fraud, intellectual property rights violations (my company is a victim of this since we have a license to produce/sell some int'l brands) and piracy.

After 3 years (since 2004) of being a Handango customer. I always bought from them, tried PocketGear once or twice too but kept coming back to Handango. I guess you could say I trusted Handango and I like their site and how I could see all my purchase history. Today, I was trying to purchase SPB Traveler and got this message.
Error FSS3: 'We're sorry, but your order cannot be fulfilled because your country is on Handango's U.S. export control list.

The funny thing is I just bought SPB Mobile Shell from Handango last Jun 19, 2007 about 8 days ago and the order went thru!

I admit I have used cracked software before I stopped when my device got stuck and had to do a hard reset with no backups so I've learned my lesson.

Now I purchase my apps, I do it for the support and peace of mind, the problem is... now it seems I cannot purchase my apps anymore. Other apps I have on my device all have software stores linked to Handango [Resco, Ilium, SPB, SBSH]. I wrote Handango but have not gotten a reply yet [they have a 2 day workaround for emails]. I hope their response is positive.

I'm giving the vendor another chance since the developer SPB has washed their hands on this issue [they have it in their FAQ to contact Handango about Error FSS3].

Not everyone thinks like me though most people would say: 'Screw it I'll just download the cracked version instead!'