Palm Releases the Foleo Mobile Companion: Diamond or Dud? [Archive]

View Full Version : Palm Releases the Foleo Mobile Companion: Diamond or Dud?

Jason Dunn

05-30-2007, 08:09 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilecompanion/foleo/index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.palm.com/us/products/mob...oleo/index.html</a> </div>"With its 10-inch screen and full-size keyboard, the Palm Foleo mobile companion connects wirelessly with your smartphone to help you do more on the go. Unfold it, press a button, and it's on instantly—while just one touch brings your email to the big screen. Use your Foleo to view attachments, type longer emails, or to get a bigger look at web pages and photos you'd normally view on your smartphone. And with up to five hours of battery life packed into such a compact design, you'll do big things wherever you go." <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/palm-foleo-may30.jpg" /> Here's the scenario that Palm has created this product for: you have a Palm smartphone (a Pocket PC) and on it you have all the applications you need to stay productive on the go. The problem is that your device has a small screen, and a small keyboard - so while that's fine for short email messages and basic triage on the go, it's not practical for tackling a big work load. The Palm Foleo is designed to replace a laptop, to do more, faster, with a bigger screen (10" wide-screen) and a keyboard. Battery life is apparently five hours, and the Foleo has built-in WiFi. It uses the Palm as a modem if you're outside of WiFi range, and uses Bluetooth to do a one-button sync with the device so all your email and data is the same on both devices. It has a connection port for VGA out to a projector for doing presentations, and <a href="http://www.dataviz.com/news/press/pressreleases/Detail.html?id=174&product=">Documents To Go has been updated</a> to allow better functionality with Office documents. It has a scroll wheel and a nub-mouse. Other specifications are unknown: no word on memory card slots, CPU, USB ports, local storage capacity, whether Flash is supported in the browser (big mistake if it isn't), and there's no mention of an IM client, or anything else beyond the basic productivity pitch. There is a photo viewer, a file manager, a PDF viewer, a terminal application (command prompt?) and of course a Web browser. So that's what the Foleo is. Now here's my take on it.<!> I like seeing companies break new ground, and the Foleo is a bit different than anything I've seen before. Sure, we've seen small and light clamshell devices with keyboards - back in 1996 we called them Handheld PCs and it was Microsoft's first foray into the realm of mobile computing. Back then, they were too expensive and too limited in functionality to ever become popular. Now here's Palm, a little over a decade later, pitching essentially the same thing. There are a few key differences: the introductory price of $499 USD is decent (shame on them for doing a $100 mail-in rebate though) but if it goes much higher than that they'll start to lose interested buyers. The way that the Foleo links up with a Treo is interesting and ultimately bridges the gap between being in a location with WiFi and being in the middle of nowhere but still having a cellular signal. The idea of having a device with a bigger keyboard and screen, enabling you to do more work, is a valid one. Most of us call those laptops, but as a big fan of small and light laptops, there's no laptop on the market with a 10" screen and five hours of battery life that costs $499 USD. I'm just finishing up my review of an LG C1 Tablet PC and it sells for around $2500 USD. Yes, you can buy a laptop for around $500 now, but laptops in that price range are thick, heavy, will likely only last two hours on a charge, and adding Bluetooth to replicate the functionality of the Foleo plus Treo adds to the cost. In some ways though, it seems like the Foleo is an admission from Palm that mobile devices can't be used in all the scenarios we need. For instance, check out this quote from the Palm site: "After your last meeting of the day, you open up your Gmail account to find an invite to a restaurant opening. You get directions using Google Maps, which are easy to read on the big screen, and send an email out to a few friends. Subject: It's been a good day. Let's celebrate." The core scenarios there are checking Gmail, looking up a restaurant, getting directions, and sending an email with those directions. Aren't those scenarios covered off fairly well with something like the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,52745">Windows Live Search</a> client? There are some things that would make me interested in buying a Foleo: if it has a USB port and can be charged via USB, that means no bulky power adaptor and travelling ultra-light becomes viable (USB adaptor + USB AC power adaptor). If it can work with other devices beyond the Treo (Jeff Hawkins said that was a goal), that also appeals to me because right now the Treo isn't the best device for my needs. They say five hours of battery life, but that probably means three to four hours under normal circumstances: if they can hit five hours battery life under heavy use, that would be superb. And if they open up the platform to allow other sorts of applications to be installed - say, a basic photo editor - I could see myself using this device in a variety of scenarios where I might not want to bring my laptop. I'd worry a lot less about damaging/losing a $500 Foleo than I would a $3000 ultra-portable laptop. One thing Palm may not have thought about is that there may be a market of non-Treo owning people that would want to buy this product sole on it's own merits: when I was in my last year of college I used my Velo 1 HPC to take notes in class, and it was extremely useful. Laptops have come a long way since then, and many students already take laptops to class, but again the functionality and pricing sweet spot of $500 makes this a compelling alternative for some people. Only time will tell, but I think the Foleo is an interesting foray for Palm that may bear fruit. Jason Dunn owns and operates <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com">Thoughts Media Inc.</a>, a company dedicated to creating the best in online communities. He enjoys mobile devices, digital media content creation/editing, and pretty much all technology. He lives in Calgary, Alberta, Canada with his lovely wife, and his sometimes obedient dog. He likes the Foleo more than most people it seems!

unxmully

05-30-2007, 08:35 PM

I like the look of it and it's a brave move by Palm to do something completely different. I can't see it replacing my MacBook though, there are still too many things I need a "grown up" computer for and this won't have them.

It's very close though and I'd be interested to see some specs which seem to be sadly lacking from the site.

pocketpcadmirer

05-30-2007, 08:36 PM

Any detail on the storage media it is using and its storage capacity?

atttreo

05-30-2007, 08:51 PM

Its still just a little too expensive. If I can get a laptop for $500 or less that is way more functional, then I am having a lot of trouble justifying the foleo.

CTSLICK

05-30-2007, 09:01 PM

I guess I just don't see how this raises the bar that far to be called innovation. I mean the Vadem Clio (now Data Evolutions's Clio NXT) doesnt miss this spec by far. I guess I need to see just how thin it really is and read some reviews before passing judgement. And the price point...seems ok but only because I already have a bluetooth phone with a data plan that hooks up at EVDO speeds. Otherwise that price point might just be the tip of the iceberg.

There are SO many unanswered questions which surprises me.
Can it do any multimedia, i.e. could I put a movie on it for travel entertainment?
Can I put my own apps on it? If so who is developing those apps?

jalm1

05-30-2007, 09:12 PM

If it has a decent browser and will enable me to sync with exchange, i just might take the plunge. I have been eyeing the nokia tablet, but it just wont quite cut it. I see potential for it being used for 1) around the house when you dont want a full computer (ie, me sitting on a couch wanting to look things up,, surf the web and be all synced up with exchange. Or for those weekend getaways when you dont want a laptop, just want email, web browser, maybe some media and reading material. That said, fairly limited in scope.

burtcom

05-30-2007, 09:30 PM

I'll withhold judgement till we get more details -- for example I'd like to know what OS this thing runs -- is it Windows Mobile, Linux, PalmOS?

EDIT :; Ah ha -- InformationWeek says it's Linux

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199703590

Paragon

05-30-2007, 10:32 PM

It's dud!

It is essentially a UMPC, and a very big one at that. UMPCs are dropping in price, so I don't see a big price advantage. The biggest problem with the Foleo is that it's in the same category as UMPCs They are no longer playing with fledgling mobile OSs as competitors. They are butting heads with the world leader...no the world dominator in OS development.....Foleo or Vista, which is more functional? Which is more compatable? Vista of course. Microsoft are going to drop one of their new coffee table PCs on this insignificant little Foleo and it will never be heard from again. ;)

Dave

whydidnt

05-30-2007, 11:14 PM

It's typical Palm, in that it's too little, too late. This "could" have been an innovative device, but instead they skimped everywhere possible to give themselves room for 4-5 future Foleo models.

It's too big and heavy to be any more portable than an ultralight notebook. They skimped on internal memory. There are virtually no applications for it right now. It's questionable whether the email app will work on it's own, or if it requires the smartphone to acquire mail. I haven't heard how fast the processor is, but I'm not

What if if they had shrunk this down to a 1.5 lb package with a keyboard that folds out, so that it would fit in a large pocket? Then included 16 GB of Flash RAM, included a Palm OS or WM emulator so you could run your favorite applications? How about including a portable media player, so you could watch movies, or listen to music while traveling. How about building in GPS so you can use it for that while traveling.

This is simply a Windows CE Handheld Pro device with EVEN less functionality and fewer applications available for it. That market failed, why would anyone think this will be any different, especially since Palm has not shown much marketing muscle?

Finally, if they really wanted to go with something cheap, they should have simply built a docking shell that enabled you to dock your phone, use a keyboard and higher resolution screen and battery, but count on the mobile device for all apps, storage, processor etc. This would probably rule out Palm OS devices, but WM could function very well in this environment.

mikehilton

05-31-2007, 12:03 AM

I have read people's responses that it is not innovative, but who else has this. The idea of creating an "instant on" device that acts as a companion terminal to a powerful mobile phone is fantastic. This is exactly what I need in my life today. Alternatives (when you look at small, instant on and good battery life) are products like the HTC Advantage. But what about those times when you want a small device that you can carry on your hip or pocket, so you will probably have a second phone anyway with the Advantage. Remember, no one seems to complain about the $1200+ price tag for the HTC Advantage. So even $1000 for this device is good. This is precisely what I am looking for.

A mandatory requirement is Mobile 6 or CE as the operating system. Nice to haves include the 5 hours of heavy use as Jason suggests as well as a really nice to have would be the abile to folder over into a note taking mode and handwrite notes.

Timothy Rapson

05-31-2007, 12:15 AM

There has never been a successful handheld that was smaller than a laptop but too big to fit in you shirt pocket. Never. Not one.
My big question is. What does this do that the superb (but also failed and gone) Psion subnotebook? What was that called, the Psion 8? If that excellent device couldn't make it whether it had EPOC or Windows CE this one won't either. How sad for Palm.

whydidnt

05-31-2007, 12:27 AM

Alternatives (when you look at small, instant on and good battery life) are products like the HTC Advantage. But what about those times when you want a small device that you can carry on your hip or pocket, so you will probably have a second phone anyway with the Advantage. Remember, no one seems to complain about the $1200+ price tag for the HTC Advantage. So even $1000 for this device is good. This is precisely what I am looking for.

Search for Jornada on eBay and pick up a 820 and you have a 5+ year old device that is essentially this running Windows CE. Okay, you need to add a WiFi or bluetooth CF Card, and it's only VGA. But, it's more than 5 years old and essentially the same thing. ++ There are hundreds of software applications available to run on it. What makes the Foleo innovative when you compare it this?

The Advantage is much smaller than the Foleo, weighing less than 1 lb, yet it has more memory, a built in camera, GPS, 3G, etc. Of course it costs more. The Foleo has two advantages - a higher resolution screen and full keyboard. The trade off is in size and functionality.

For what it's worth, I agree - I'd like to see a Windows Mobile vendor do a similar device, with hi-res and full keyboard, but they'd have to do it better than Palm has to interest me. It would have to be smaller, lighter, and include better specs. Then I'd pay $1,000 for it.

Mark Kenepp

05-31-2007, 01:11 AM

Ever since I had my Erocsson MC218 and Ericsson CF788, I wanted a solution like this. The MC218 made a great terminal for the CF788 to synchronize phone numbers and send and receive SMS.

When I got an Ericsson r380i to compliment my MC218, I was very disappointed they did not work together very well. Why couldn't the MC218 read the data in the r380 and allow me to manipulate it like it was just a "dumb" terminal?

This seems to be exactly that, a "dumb" terminal to manipulate data on a "smart" phone.

A small sub-notebook like device (admittedly, I think the Foleo is a bit large for my tastes) that would allow me to access all the functionality of my "smart" phone would be great. I don't need the "terminal" to contain any data. Why should it, it is already stored on my phone!

Reading the information on the Palm site, however leads me to believe that it is for use with the Palm OS Treos, if only because that is what appears to be on the screen of the treo in the pictures. The disclaimer says that it requires a compatible Bluetooth enabled phone but does not specify which are compatible.

mbranscum

05-31-2007, 02:22 AM

http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=2217

FROM THE ARTICLE ON PHONESCOOP...
"...The device will sync with both Palm- and Windows Mobile-based Treos, and Palm says that other Microsoft Windows Mobile products should work wth the Foleo with minimal extra steps. Palm also says other smartphone platforms, like BlackBerry OS, may be compatible with the Foleo."

geneb

05-31-2007, 02:56 AM

Hmmmm.....a wireless docking station for a smartphone. Interesting.

bnycastro

05-31-2007, 03:13 AM

why didn't they go with a more popular os like xp or vista is a mystery to me. also interested to see the specs but ATM it's not that interesting, if I'd like a companion for my Treo it'd be a UMPC with all the bells and whistles [I have a VAIO UX280P now but plan on getting a HTC Shift when that comes out if I can afford it that is hehehe]

Sven Johannsen

05-31-2007, 04:35 AM

why didn't they go with a more popular os like xp or vista is a mystery to me. Why is that such a mystery? They went free and customizable. I'm sure there was some up front development to do, but have you tried to fit XP or Vista into a limited memory space, either storage or operating? Windows CE might have been a reasonable choice to build a dedicated small footprint device on, but you still have the per unit licensing.

Nurhisham Hussein

05-31-2007, 04:41 AM

why didn't they go with a more popular os like xp or vista is a mystery to me.

Simple - price. They'd never get the price point down to US$500 with licensing costs, plus having to add the hardware to support an x86 processor and OS. The Foleo from what I've read uses an RISC processor, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually running a PXA270.

bnycastro

05-31-2007, 04:46 AM

I see I watched the webcast and it looks really thin. What doesn't makes sense is the internal slot for CF, so it's for memory only not I/O devices? IIRC most I/O CF accessories have protrusions bigger than the CF card itself

heliod

05-31-2007, 05:24 AM

Too little, too late, too hyped.

He actually "invented" a very limited laptop.

It is a treo on the big screen, and it can do whatever the Treo knows how to do. It would be lacking most of the functionality I need if I want to go around with something that size.

Today I go around with a Jasjar, and when someone says something about its size I say "now try to find a notebook in my bag"; when they understand that the place I come from is substituting the notebook, they understand that the JJ is rather small.

Then, at those moments I need a full fledged computer (when I travel abroad, for example), I want a full fledged computer, and not a computer wannabe. In this cases I either take a notebook or my UMPC which have a full fledged operating system, storage on disk and all the software I am used to use at the office.

BTW, Jason, the fact that it charges from USB..... do you intend to take a notebook with you as well in order to charge it, or to ask from the people in the table nearby at the cafe if you can charge your device from theirs? I don't see how this can be an advantage. The only advantage is that if it can charge from 5V source your charger can be lighter, but I doubt if you will ever go out of home without a charger for it.

Just my two cents....

alese

05-31-2007, 05:27 AM

We really need to get more information about it before giving the final judgement.
On one hand it's an interesting idea to have mobile "terminal" for your mobile phone, capable of more "real" work than the phone.
And comparing it to HPCs is a bit of a strech. If I remember corectly no HPC was ever "just" $600 (not counting the rebate). They were allways around $900 and the price came down only on clearence offers...
Also you don't know the specs and what Folio can actually do. Having Linux means that a lot could be hacked/installed on it, much more that it was ever possible on HPC.
But...
On the other hand, I don't see who is the target audience for this. The mobile professionals carry their notebooks with them, just because you need more than just a smartphone to do the job. And Folio can't really compare to a "real" notebook.
Also having Linux device in mostly Windows corporate environment means a lot of compatibility and functionality issues. Just as HPCs and now HTC Advantage could not replace notebooks, because they couldn't do enough, I guess the same will happen to Folio...

ADBrown

05-31-2007, 07:58 AM

Other specifications are unknown: no word on memory card slots, CPU, USB ports, local storage capacity, whether Flash is supported in the browser (big mistake if it isn't),

Internal CompactFlash slot, plus SD. Some USB, unclear whether it's Host or Device or both. Local storage 256 MB, with an unknown amount removed for the OS, plus whatever memory cards you have. Flash is supported, but the processor isn't really fast enough to run it well, particularly online video sites, according to the maker.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that the price is such an attractant. Best Buy has three laptops of various makes for the same or less than the Foleo, and they all run the full Windows XP or Vista rather than a stripped down mobile Linux with no platform base.

Really, I think all the hype they gave this was disasterous for it. It probably wouldn't have been a smash hit in any case, but they deliberately made it sound like it was a revolutionary device, which it is not in the least. They also disillusioned a bunch more of their loyal fan base as to Palm's ability to innovate.

I'd have loved to see something like this--at a much smaller size, say 4-5" screen and maybe a larger 7" sibling, plus a much more significant increase in battery life, and a recognizable OS like Windows Mobile. That would actually show a reason for giving up full laptop hardware: insanely long battery life, a solidly established OS with plenty of software, and significant size savings.

sixftunda

05-31-2007, 12:12 PM

WOW! I got done watching the promo and was wiping the drool off of me and then I started reading the comments here and at another site. Guess I am in the minority. Personally I dont need a fully functional laptop to take with me on the go. I might switch to Palm for this.

sesummers

05-31-2007, 01:34 PM

If we extrapolate the trends, it's obvious that in another 10 years or so, our "cell phones" will have enough storage capacity and communication bandwidth to hold all our "stuff". We're going to want to be able to sit down at any console (screen, keyboard, and whatever other I/O we like in 10 years) and access it all, live, without having to plug anything in, with good performance levels.

Something like this device- a "dumb laptop" with a decent screen, decent keyboard, and decent pointing ability, and a high bandwidth / short distance connection to our pocket size storage and communication devices, could be a useful, portable console for use while traveling, especially on planes with their limited workspace.

Unfortunately for Palm, we're not there yet. Storage capacity on the "communicator" side needs to be in the many gigabytes range. It isn't yet. Transfer speed between the storage device and the console needs to be WAY more than Bluetooth, and it can't require doing a "sync" - it has to be live.

Most important, the rest of the infrastructure needs to be in place. None of us are ready to move our computing environment into our portable device and access it through "consoles" because the portable devices aren't up to it and the consoles don't exist. A Treo and a low performance laptop aren't going to be the catalyst that the industry reconfigures itself around.

I predict it will fail, but 10+ years from now, it'll be looked at as an interesting predecessor to the idea we'll all be embracing.

jlp

05-31-2007, 07:40 PM

felixdd

05-31-2007, 09:04 PM

Jason Dunn

05-31-2007, 09:04 PM

BTW, Jason, the fact that it charges from USB..... do you intend to take a notebook with you as well in order to charge it, or to ask from the people in the table nearby at the cafe if you can charge your device from theirs?

I don't know that it charges via USB - that was just a hopeful guess on my part. USB to AC power adaptors are very small, much smaller than most laptop power bricks - one of those plus a retractable USB cable makes for a small overall carrying package.

Jason Dunn

05-31-2007, 09:42 PM

Anyway, I'm not convinced that the price is such an attractant. Best Buy has three laptops of various makes for the same or less than the Foleo, and they all run the full Windows XP or Vista rather than a stripped down mobile Linux with no platform base.

The cheapest Dell laptop I can find is $599, so let's say it's basically the same price as the Foleo without the rebate. The big difference I see is that the Dell laptop is 6.19 pounds, 210.67 cubic inches in total size, and will probably last two hours on a battery charge. I can't seem to dig up the actual weight and dimensions of the folio, but I suspect it's at least 50% lighter in weight, 70% smaller in total size, and lasts for five hours with WiFi + BT turned on. I don't know about you, but small, lighter, longer-lasting mobile devices are ALWAYS appealing.

I'm fully willing to concede though that quite often people are willing to put up with more weight, hassle, and frustration in order to have more functionality - so it will be interesting to see if the Foleo draws the kind of customer that Palm wants. Me? I think I might like to own one.

caywen

05-31-2007, 09:58 PM

I think the Foleo is close but no cigar. I think users still kind of want Windows or Mac OS on these devices. However, Vista is way too huge and Microsoft has a real problem on their hands.

Microsoft needs to pare down Vista to a very basic set of services, and get it to run well in 512MB. It needs to run phenomenally well in 1GB. And it needs a way smaller footprint to allow flash-only device integration. Perhaps one thing they can do is have 0 extraneous drivers on the device and require a disc insert / network cable to install new USB devices. If they can get the OS to fit in 1GB...

Paragon

05-31-2007, 11:15 PM

If you read through this thread one thing is very apparent. The only advantage anyone sees in this device is hardware related. The OS has made ZERO impact. Given that, what happens next week if Sony, Dell, HP, HTC, Averatec, Acer or a plethora of other manufacturers come out with a similar piece of hardware with a real OS?....and they will. ;)

I still say this thing is a big dud! It may have accomplished one thing, and that is inspire others to do it but do it right. ;)

Dave

jlp

06-01-2007, 01:41 AM

I'm not sure most people understand this device clearly:

1) it's NOT a notebook replacement: it's not meant to do heavy stuff, just email, web, office docs, plus 3rd party Linux apps (could it run OO.o??)
2) it's NOT a UMPC, rather a MID: Mobile Internet Device
3) but it's even more than that in the fact it does sync with a smartphone, Treo and others too
4) it IS able to be used ALL on its own as it includes BT, USB, CF and SD slots plus VGA and audio out

1) It's too big to not be one.

Size do not a function make; specs and therefore features do.

My Intermec 6651 can do all this can, and more, and it's half the size by volume.

Then you have information that none of us here have. I went throughout Palm's site, googled around: no information about size.

And did your Intermec have a 10" screen at 1024*600 too?

When it worked, could your Intermec sync with a smartphone? and do Word, Excel and PowerPoint?

Not to mention when it was still working, the intermec had double its battery life.

With BT and Wifi on? Not sure it had any...

And what about its price, I believe it was around $1500 or above.

2) MIDs have failed. I can't remember but I believe HP made one that flopped majorly. There have also been MIDs in the tablet format that prety much died before they were launched.

I guess you refer to the Jornada 820?!

Things have changed ENORMOUSLY in about 10 years.

Wait until I finalize my analysis entitled "17 Capital Changes Since the Days of Jupiter/HPCs" to understand why I think the Foleo should be successful.

3&4) Aside from the large screen, I don't see how lugging a 10" device would be better than a PDA, a VGA output adapter, and a portable keyboard.

...plus a mouse.

Mabe the word "integrated" should ring a bell?! and you said it yourself, a large screen... that's one of the key feature. (your quote reminds me of the guy who says to his wife: besides his money, beauty, intelligence and fame, what does Peter have more than me... :roll:)

jlp

06-01-2007, 01:50 AM

Also too many people here and on other boards look at the Foleo thru geek's glasses.

This is NOT the be all do all for all.

It's only (mainly) aimed at the average business traveller who complains about their smartphone keyboard and screen size. That's why it's called a mobile companion. It does basic things only and do it very well. This has always been Palm philosophy.

You might ditch it for being low power, and it's not for you then, NO need to call it a dud.

When IT support people in corporations will see that it's simple (much less support needed; users won't fool around installing everything and messing things up), low priced, lighter (users won't complain about back aches; doesn't need to lug miles of cords and an adapter around, especially if you can recharge it thru USB), etc. they will order it by the thousands.

This is Palm's target, not geeks.

ADBrown

06-01-2007, 02:18 AM

The cheapest Dell laptop I can find is $599, so let's say it's basically the same price as the Foleo without the rebate. The big difference I see is that the Dell laptop is 6.19 pounds, 210.67 cubic inches in total size

Yes, but so? Realistically, if a device isn't pocketable, it might as well be a laptop. If you're going to be carrying a bag anyway, why not step up the rest of the way to a real laptop with full desktop compatibility, rather than a device like the Foleo which has no software base, and can only do email when attached to a Treo? I'm sure some people are willing to make the compromise, but I suspect not enough people to make the Foleo viable. If the UMPCs can't make it, why would a slightly larger device without the XP compatibility find a market?

jlp

06-01-2007, 02:23 AM

Don't Panic!

06-01-2007, 02:37 AM

Paragon

06-01-2007, 02:52 AM

OT: LOL! I wondered where you've been Paragon. I guess I was just looking in the wrong places.

Crud! If only the RCMP were that easy. :D j/k

I've been at Hofo mostly Bobby. Longtimers like us never seem to go away do we?! ;)

Don't Panic!

06-01-2007, 03:04 AM

After being assimilated I'm still looking for a PPC with hi-speed internet action. Those PPCPE devices were cool and speedy once I started using VZW; But they left me hanging on the screen real estate front. The Foleo from PALM is pointing in the right direction. Twice the screen size of any PPC or WiMPE device I've ever seen. 8O

I've been on a UMPC and laptop kick lately. Hanging out in a lot of UMPC and the only HP zd7000 forum I've found.

Paragon

06-01-2007, 03:10 AM

After being assimilated I'm still looking for a PPC with hi-speed internet action. Those PPCPE devices were cool and speedy once I started using VZW; But they left me hanging on the screen real estate front. The Foleo from PALM is pointing in the right direction. Twice the screen size of any PPC or WiMPE device I've ever seen.

Yes, we look at your assimilation as one of our bigger achievements. ;)

As for screen real estate have you checked out the Advantage? Personally I see it as much more viable than the Foleo. They just have to work on the price and keyboard for the next generation.

Dave

Don't Panic!

06-01-2007, 03:16 AM

The HTC Advantage with its 5 inch screen is half real estate available on the ALM Foleo. (Who thinks up these names?)

heliod

06-01-2007, 05:25 AM

I don't know that it charges via USB - that was just a hopeful guess on my part. USB to AC power adaptors are very small, much smaller than most laptop power bricks - one of those plus a retractable USB cable makes for a small overall carrying package.

Oh, I thought you knew it for sure. Anyway, regarding the size and weight of the chargers, I fully agree with you. Regarding of charging it directly from USB, I doubt when we would be using that.

I am very skeptic about the success of this thing, I mean someone can get an HTC Advantage (and let's just state, to be fair, that I DON'T like the Advantage - I believe it is too big to be my phone and too limited to be my computer) and do the same with one device instead of two.

I do agree with you though, that the hype has been very bad for it. The size of the expectations, the size of the disappointment. One wise man one said, if you have an important message shout it out loud, if you don't you might better shut up. If they would release it quietly as a PALM Treo companion (an accessory instead of the next big thing), it would be received nicely, probably.

Helio

tal

06-01-2007, 11:51 AM

Firstly let me state that I fall in the category of people not thinking the Foleo is anything new or revolutionary. Its just a Linux-based Web-terminal with limited smartphone syncing and which needs a smartphone for real wireless connectivity. Its not that different from what I use my hx4700 for (or the old Jornada clamshell anyway) but they put a nice marketing spin to it (that's what Palm always was good at :) ) which might help selling it.

Although I don't like their solution, I really like their concept of the smartphone companion a lot! What would be great in my opinion would be a much simpler "big screen+keyboard device" in a "laptop formfactor" like Foleo (or smaller) BUT without any computing power or storage memory, ...

Just plug your (Windows Mobile) smartphone into this device and you get a decent MID / limited scope laptop with the same familiar applications, same data (no syncing!), ... just on a bigger screen and a real keyboard. Since this companion would be much simpler than the Foleo price and weight should be lower than the Foleo really bringing it into the "accessory" category.

Thorsten

felixdd

06-01-2007, 01:04 PM

Seems like I touched a nerve....

Regarding your response to 1)...if two forms of hardware offer the same in functionality in every way besides size, then what else can they be compared on? How is a criticism of size moot? The existence of UMPCs is proof in an of itself that such a demand exist.

More about the Intermec 6651 -- when it came out, smartphones didn't exist yet so it's a bit anachronistic to say it can, but nonetheless there are software solutions for synchronizing with other devices (although through IR). And yes...it can do word/excel/powerpoint. And it did not come bundled with wifi, but even using my wifi card, yes my battery went longer than 5 hrs. Not to mention that I doubt the Foleo's "5 hr" figure was measured with wireless on either.

And finally, why are you listing screen estate (hence size) as a functionality? ;)

In regards to 2, what I initially had in mind was the 3com Audrey, but I must concede that it's not quite mobile. However, the Nokia 7710 is a good example...it never quite gained full market acceptance.

In regards to integration...so taking size into account...yes I think that's the only thing going for it -- that some people would want a bigger device. Nonetheless, I am still not convinced that the Foleo brings enough to the table for widespread acceptance. The problem is that its functionality can already be fulfilled by existing devices on the market: a tech savvy might say, "oh I can do this with a PDA and some accessories", while an average buyer might say, "why don't I just buy a cheap laptop so I can run what I have on my desktop computer on it as well?" I can see a few niche purchases, but that's about it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the HPC form factor (which is what this device reminds me off), but I just don't see it taking off. One way that it CAN gain widespread acceptance is if it markets to the education sector...and one thing going for it on that front is its size. But aside from that, I don't see this lasting terribly long.

Pity though, if I had the bucks, I would snatch one up to play with.

I'm not sure most people understand this device clearly:

Long quote snipped by mod JR

Paragon

06-01-2007, 01:22 PM

The HTC Advantage with its 5 inch screen is half real estate available on the ALM Foleo. (Who thinks up these names?)

And a laptop has 50% more than a Foleo. Which brings up a very important question: When exactly does a device stop being a mobile device and become....something else? I think it stops at that 5" screen. I think the Advantage takes it to the very limit. Anything any bigger and it now become much more of a laptop regardless of functionality, because you can't put it in your pocket. You need a bag to carry it around in, no different than a laptop. Then the difference is that a laptop is fully functional whereas the Foleo is severely crippled. As for this Smartphone connectivity or companionship some have mentioned in regard to the Foleo, I think a laptop or UMPC far exceed anything this Foleo does.

It's still a dud! ;)

Dave

jlp

06-01-2007, 01:44 PM

The HTC Advantage with its 5 inch screen is half real estate available on the ALM Foleo. (Who thinks up these names?)

Still forgetting that twice the diagonal is FOUR TIMES THE SURFACE?!!!

That's 400% the screen real estate for the mathematically... should I dare... challenged :D :wink:.

Then it's PALM Foleo, akin to Portfolio.

PeterChenoweth

06-01-2007, 08:39 PM

That's precisely what I thought of when I first saw these Foleo announcements. I've seen this before...

Yup, a Jornada 820.

It flopped for HP. I don't hold much hope for Palm. Palm tried 'breaking the mold' business before with the Audrey, and it flopped. I suspect the Foleo will meet the same fate.

Palm, is this really the best you can come up with? No truly new product designs in 2 or 3 years and this is what you give us?

Sigh. :cry: It's a shame. Palm had it ten years ago, then they lost their way. Having owned more than a half dozen Palm PDA's over the years, it's sad to see the company continue on their downward spiral. I hate to say it, but if this is the best Palm can do, I suspect their days are numbered. I hope I am wrong.

Search for Jornada on eBay and pick up a 820 and you have a 5+ year old device that is essentially this running Windows CE. Okay, you need to add a WiFi or bluetooth CF Card, and it's only VGA. But, it's more than 5 years old and essentially the same thing. ++ There are hundreds of software applications available to run on it. What makes the Foleo innovative when you compare it this? ...

reidme

06-01-2007, 09:48 PM

reidme

06-01-2007, 09:57 PM

The only advantage anyone sees in this device is hardware related. The OS has made ZERO impact.
The biggest advantages I see are a direct result of the OS: instant on and off, small memory footprint, low power draw, and low cost.

Flynn Arrowstarr

06-01-2007, 10:35 PM

Sounds like a potentially nice device. However, I'd just prefer something like a Compaq Aero 8000 with an updated CE OS or XP Embedded. Built-in WiFi would be nice, but not entirely necessary if it has a PC Card slot. A necessity is a multi-format card reader, a USB port that can accept 2.0 low-power devices (mouse, memory, etc.), Ethernet (through PC Card or built-in). 512 mb of flash ROM and 128 mb of RAM would work. Display can be anywhere between 7 and 10 inches, either 800x600 or 1024x768 and touchscreen can be optional.

With the emphasis on business and productivity applications, power gaming isn't necessary. The processor should be fast/powerfull enough to run emulators such as PocketDOS or DosBox at a decent clip. Graphics should be able to handle 16-bit color depths (24-bit and above is unnecessary). I could see such a device replacing both my ancient laptop and my ePlate.

Flynn

Paragon

06-01-2007, 11:29 PM

The biggest advantages I see are a direct result of the OS: instant on and off, small memory footprint, low power draw, and low cost.

If you really think about this device, instant on really isn't that important. If it's main function in life is to be a Smartphone companion you are checking your email on your Smartphone. You are really only going to use this thing when you want to sit down and take a bit of time to compose a more lengthy reply, or spend some time doing heavier web surfing. The Smartphone is taking care of the instant on needs.

Low cost, I think is a temporary issue that it will soon loose. First the price is $100.00 more than quoted because of a mail in rebate. Secondly I think they are trying to buy their way into the market now and will have price increases later. Thirdly, now that the gauntlet has been dropped, in the next few months we will see its competitors who are making UMPCs and sub-notebooks meet the hardware specs of the Folieo and be much more competitive in price.....Sorry, I still think it is a dud! It's going to get clobbered. ;)

Dave

jlp

06-01-2007, 11:47 PM

reidme

06-02-2007, 12:08 AM

If you really think about this device, instant on really isn't that important. If it's main function in life is to be a Smartphone companion you are checking your email on your Smartphone. You are really only going to use this thing when you want to sit down and take a bit of time to compose a more lengthy reply, or spend some time doing heavier web surfing. The Smartphone is taking care of the instant on needs.

Low cost, I think is a temporary issue that it will soon loose. First the price is $100.00 more than quoted because of a mail in rebate. Secondly I think they are trying to buy their way into the market now and will have price increases later. Thirdly, now that the gauntlet has been dropped, in the next few months we will see its competitors who are making UMPCs and sub-notebooks meet the hardware specs of the Folieo and be much more competitive in price.....Sorry, I still think it is a dud! It's going to get clobbered. ;)

Dave

I really thought about it, and instant on-off is still important to me. Also, an efficient OS will always use less memory, power, and $$ than an inefficient one. It's a niche product, but a niche I'm firmly in. :D

Timothy Rapson

06-02-2007, 01:03 AM

My big question is. What does this do that the superb (but also failed and gone) Psion subnotebook?
I guess you meant to add "didn't do" and the answer is Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, full-size keyboard, and much larger screen. I agree it was a superb device, but ahead of it's time. Actually, the ripples on the surface of the Foleo remind me very much of the Psion Series 3.

What was that called, the Psion 8? If that excellent device couldn't make it whether it had EPOC or Windows CE this one won't either.
It came in two flavors. The Psion Series 7 ran EPOC and the Psion Netbook ran WinCE.

The Netbook/Series 7 is what I was referring too. This does not have that much larger a screen or keyboard than the Netbook, or the Clio, or the HP Companion or whatever they were all called. Anyway, they all failed. There is no market for this size product whether it has Wi-Fi or not. Just not market for it. It has been tried to death.

BrotherDave

06-02-2007, 01:06 AM

I’ll dove tail on Paragon’s point. Given the size and the fact that it’s actually expensive, it can’t really be anything but a severely crippled UMPC.

I believe there is a market for a cheap and dump accessory (which some have described) that you could plug your device into to get a bigger screen and a real keyboard. But it has to be cheap (about $150 or less.) This would be a pain free way to solve the same problem that Palm is trying to solve but it wouldn’t require all the trouble of a new OS, new updates, and potentially some loss of fidelity/time through sync/replication - and it wouldn’t cost $500.

The Folio is essentially a small $500 laptop with the cool feature of instant on but with no with little to no software.

For those temped, if the size cost ratio is what appeals to you the question is how much more would you pay for a similarly sized UMPC that could run the full gamut of Windows software? (assuming instant on doesn't trump everyting.)

I still say this thing is a big dud! It may have accomplished one thing, and that is inspire others to do it but do it right. ;)
I hope so. I believe doing it right is the accessory described above.

-Dave

alese

06-02-2007, 01:55 AM

...
The Netbook/Series 7 is what I was referring too. This does not have that much larger a screen or keyboard than the Netbook, or the Clio, or the HP Companion or whatever they were all called. Anyway, they all failed. There is no market for this size product whether it has Wi-Fi or not. Just not market for it. It has been tried to death.

While it's true that pretty much all the devices in HPC segment failed, we have to be fair.
All of the HPCs (and Psions also) had a starting price between $800-$1000, quite a bit more than Folio.
Yes they didn't do much, yes they were big and you couldn't really put them in your pocket, but I'm pretty sure their major shortfall was drastically too high price.
I remember when (I think it was in 1999) IBM discontinued their z50 HPC and the price dropped from $1000 to I think it was $500 - they were sold out in couple of days, so maybe (just maybe) if Palm keeps the price at $500 they could sell reasonably well. At least until UMPCs drop in price...

sixftunda

06-02-2007, 05:56 AM

What would be great in my opinion would be a much simpler "big screen+keyboard device" in a "laptop formfactor" like Foleo (or smaller) BUT without any computing power or storage memory, ...

Just plug your (Windows Mobile) smartphone into this device and you get a decent MID / limited scope laptop with the same familiar applications, same data (no syncing!), ... just on a bigger screen and a real keyboard. Since this companion would be much simpler than the Foleo price and weight should be lower than the Foleo really bringing it into the "accessory" category.

Thorsten

You hit the nail on the head for me. I rarely use a BT headset with my i730, so I could have the device you described open to either take notes or check calendar/tasks while talking on the phone. That would be the shizznit for me. Basically it would be a BT keyboard with a screen. Kinda like remote access.

Timothy Rapson

06-03-2007, 12:38 AM

[quote=Timothy Rapson]
...so maybe (just maybe) if Palm keeps the price at $500 they could sell reasonably well. At least until UMPCs drop in price...

That is a big maybe when you compare current prices. That $800 was less than you could get a Windows laptop for in those days by some $200-400. This Foleo seem cheap compared to those failed models, but it is about the same price or more than a current full Windows notebook.

Moreover, a PPC pocket model was $500 then, and top of the line Palm PDAs were $400. Nowdays a Windows Mobile PDA is $300-400 and a nice Palm TX sells for $270. Most people are buying phone PDAs that are $200-300 (Before contract, but $0-$100 after contract).

Desktops are now selling in smaller numbers than notebooks but are down around $300.

All of this makes the $500 Foleo more expensive than those old HPCs relative to other current information electronics.

This is not to say that your point is not valid. I didn't buy an HPC because it was just too much. The way I decided that is by comparing it to other comparable mobile devices. I bought a Clie and a folding keyboard for less than what he HPC I wanted costs. I saved both money and pocket space.

While there is no way to get that big Foleo screen on a PDA, I can already compare the keyboard to my IR Stowaway. The bottom line is that I would be paying $500 for a big screen. That is a lot of money for that one feature.

reidme

06-03-2007, 02:08 AM

I think most of the initial buyers of the Foleo will already have a laptop and a Treo, and will want the Foleo because of their laptop's shortcomings. At $500 it will be almost an impulse buy.

palmsolo

06-04-2007, 03:53 PM

And a laptop has 50% more than a Foleo. Which brings up a very important question: When exactly does a device stop being a mobile device and become....something else? I think it stops at that 5" screen. I think the Advantage takes it to the very limit. Anything any bigger and it now become much more of a laptop regardless of functionality, because you can't put it in your pocket. You need a bag to carry it around in, no different than a laptop. Then the difference is that a laptop is fully functional whereas the Foleo is severely crippled. As for this Smartphone connectivity or companionship some have mentioned in regard to the Foleo, I think a laptop or UMPC far exceed anything this Foleo does.

I completely agree with you here Dave. The Foleo is too big to be pocketable and thus you must make a decision to carry it in a bag along with your smartphone. As long as you are carrying a bag, then why not just carry a laptop or UMPC that doesn't limit you at all? I think most mobile professionals already have a laptop/UMPC and a smartphone so where in the world does the Foleo fit in?

I know when I had a Samsung Q1 UMPC it woke up almost instantaneously so I don't think the instant on/off is really that big of a deal anymore if a UMPC/laptop works like it should.

If Palm is looking to provide a larger display and keyboard, then an innovative product would be something like a Stowaway Bluetooth keyboard with a foldable display that pops out and props up to connect and display your smartphones display on a larger screen.

I was a bit excited when I first saw the device, but reality set in after more thought and it looks like Palm is really reaching with this device targeted towards a small niche in a small smartphone market.

Perry Reed

06-05-2007, 01:46 AM

First a confession... er, some background. I was once a very happy Jornada 820 user. I'm still an 820 owner, but I haven't pulled it out in quite some time. I'm also a Tablet PC user and a UMPC fan.

I love the idea of the Foleo. And I want to love the device. I'm just not sure... I think if they had made it a bit smaller, and a lot cheaper -- say about $100 or so -- it'd be a no-brainer. I'd buy one tomorrow at that price.

But at 2.5 pounds and $600 is really is competing with UMPCs. And I don't think it matches up very well. For a couple of hundred more I can get a system running XP or maybe Vista that runs everything I run on my Tablet or desktop. Which is really the primary selling point of UMPCs -- I can run all of the software I already know and use on a device that I can carry anywhere. The Foleo is roughly as portable as many UMPCs, although a lot less portable than some, and it has a full-size keyboard, which at times is very useful, but it doesn't run my software. That to me, means it's a PDA, which isn't a bad thing, but PDAs being less useful to me than a full PC, need also to be less expensive and smaller. Mostly less expensive, and I guess that's what it all boils down to.

Lower the price -- A LOT -- and it'd probably be pretty successful.

I do, however, agree with whoever it was that suggested that this thing is geared towards corporations who would rather outfit their road warriors with a safer alternative to a laptop. If, and it's a big if, you can get the corporate users to accept the thing, I could see an IT staff making a big push for it. But its ability to run Office documents had better be bullet-proof with FULL two-way compatibility with Office.

Nurhisham Hussein

06-05-2007, 04:38 PM

I think the Foleo is now dead in the water. Check out this Engadget post (http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/via-intros-nanobook-ultra-mobile-device-600-ultraportable-lap/)!

reidme

06-05-2007, 06:49 PM

Or this:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/asus-new-eee-pc-701-joins-the-laptop-lite-fray-with-a-bang/

Paragon

06-05-2007, 09:26 PM

I think the Foleo is now dead in the water. Check out this Engadget post (http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/via-intros-nanobook-ultra-mobile-device-600-ultraportable-lap/)!

Or this:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/asus-new-eee-pc-701-joins-the-laptop-lite-fray-with-a-bang/

Good bye Foleo! We knew for such a short time. ;)