HP Removes Microsoft Outlook from iPAQ Getting Started CDs

[Darius Wey]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c00906357&dimid=1016489527&dicid=alr_mar07&jumpid=em_alerts/us/mar07/all/xbu/emailsubid/mrm/mcc/loc/rbu_category/alerts' target='_blank'>http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...category/alerts</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20070325-hp.jpg" /><br /><br />HP has officially announced that Microsoft Outlook (the heart and soul of all Windows Mobile-based devices) will no longer be included in the Getting Started CDs of all HP iPAQs manufactured after March 2007, and to rub salt in the wound, no official announcement has been made regarding an accompanying price reduction. Excluding Outlook essentially kills the "out of the box" experience for consumers new to Windows Mobile. No one should have to purchase a new car and acquire the wheels separately from a tyre shop, and so no one should have to purchase a new iPAQ and be forced into acquiring Outlook separately from their local software store. HP simply cannot assume that Microsoft and PC manufacturers will satisfy the other half of the equation. There are still versions of Office 2007 (<a href="http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/suites/FX101635841033.aspx">albeit one</a>) that do not include Outlook, and there are still new PCs that do not ship with Office. Add in the millions of people who already have PCs without Outlook and you can start to see a gaping hole in HP's policy.<br /><br />If you're a consumer, remember that there are plenty of fish in the sea. Shop wisely. HP isn't your only option.

[ctmagnus]

Also, some OEMs ship PCs with trial versions of Office installed. More than once, I've had to explain to individuals that the version of Office that they had been using without issue for 30/60/90/however many days after they received the computer but suddenly cannot anymore, had been using a trial version that they did not actually pay for.

[crimsonsky]

What in the world is the rationale for this? I really can't fathom why they would do such an apparently foolish thing.

For years, the only version of Outlook I ever owned was the copy that came with my PPCs. Boy, I sure hope other vendors don't follow suit here.

[jdhill]

:( Dumb, HP! Very, very dumb!!! Exactly what do they expect the customer to sync with ???

[haesslich]

Either HP wants to start selling iPhones, which do not require Outlook to sync with.. or else they're trying to get rid of Windows Mobile devices from their inventory, since MS explicitly requires Outlook (not Outlook Express) to set up and sync contacts and appointments and all. Or else someone's a complete retard, who wants to save $20-30 per license and in doing so risk not selling a $300-500 device because nobody wants to buy it and THEN spend more money on Outlook so they can SYNC the PDA (which was part of the selling point of the PDA in the first place).

"Well, by not including Outlook, we should save some money per unit... even if we don't bring the price down."

"Great. So how do they connect the PDA to the computer?"

"Well, they install ActiveSync, which is supposed to handle it, and which IS included in the CD."

"... which is a great idea, except that ActiveSync requires a copy of Outlook to be on the system before it can be installed. Not Outlook Express."

"... maybe they'll forget about that requirement and just use the thing out of the box."

"So how do they add contacts?"

"Um... they tap them in. After reading them from their Outlook Express address book."

[ctmagnus]

Or they assume everyone has access to an Exchange account.

[Paragon]

If you're a consumer, remember that there are plenty of fish in the sea. Shop wisely. HP isn't your only option.

Who said this was an HP decision? There is the possibility that this is a MS decision. I'd be careful about trying to blacklist HP on something like this till you see where the rest of the OEMs go in the coming weeks and months.

Who among us laymen know what reasoning there might be behind MS not wanting to have a continual supply of out dated versions of Outlook still being introduced into the environment, or what the plan is when it is no longer available on the CD. Perhaps they have decided they have given too many versions of Outlook away for free. Now that the platform is verging on mainstream with many millions of devices sold yearly they may feel that it is enough, and it's time for the consumer to pay up. They may also feel that the platform is strong enough that it doesn't need the added bonus any longer.

Just consider for a moment the fact that they are now flooding the market with millions of free copies every single year. I'm sure the folks in charge of Office sales can't be too happy with that. Microsoft do seem to have some alternate plan for Outlook. The version of Office "Student and Teacher" 2003 included Outlook. The new 2007 version excludes Outlook. They have packaged things in such away that you now have to buy the more expensive "Standard" version in order to get Outlook.....All this considered I think there is a larger force at play here than HP simply pulling the plug.

Dave

[hx2210]

Bad customer service can be tolerated. Bad repairs can be fixed and their carelessness can be understood (to an extent). But a brand new device with no sync functionality out of the box?

HP needs to wake up and do something right!

And unless I am mistaken, Outlook 2007 can't be brought on its own in Australia. For those of us that already have a copy of office 2007 this is completely unacceptable from HP!

Well this is the last straw! After several bad experiences with HP over the last few weeks I have decided that my next device will be from another company.

[Jon Westfall]

While I can't agree with this practice (I think Outlook should be included to really show the power of the sync relationship between a Pocket PC and it's computer mate), I do have to admit that I've installed Outlook from a pocket-pc-provided disc only once in the past 4 years. That one time wasn't even for pocket pc sync purposes but because I needed Outlook on an additional machine and had run out of licenses.

I suspect that for many power users, Outlook is already on the machine, and those with Outlook already in some form may already be the majority of users (after all, who users Pocket PCs? Business folks who generally have access, maybe Students who usually already have Office thanks to Academic Pricing, etc...) So in the end, while I disagree in principle, I'd be really interested to know the true percentage of individuals who install Outlook from the Pocket PC's install disk. I'm betting it may be lower than we believe.

[Gerard]

I manually entered (not 'tapped' but wrote, using Character Recogniser as it was called in 2000) my first 120 or so contacts into my first Casio. Didn't occur to me to install Outlook on the PC for quite a while. I only got a PC months after getting a PPC, when it was proving impossible (things have improved, somewhat) to install software to the Casio without one. Sometime about 6 months after getting my PPC I installed Outlook on my PC, and tried to synch Contacts... bad idea. They were gone, from the PPC and with no trace of them on the PC. Activesync or Outlook just deleted them. And since Casio Backup was poo, there was no way to get them back.

I learned from this painful experience, and have since built up over 700 contacts entries, many with extensive notes and multiple phone numbers and email addresses, and do not try to synch with Outlook any more. I've run most of the time without Outlook installed on the PC. Entering contact data manually on a PPC is very handy, not a headache at all. I guess PC-centric folks just jot things down on paper, huh? So long as Sprite Backup keeps protecting my databases, I see no reason to trust Microsoft's buggy synch software and way-too-complicated PIM software, especially since my PC spends most of its life turned off, in a closet. PIM data on a PC? Why? Unless one must do it that way for company reasons, a standalone use pattern with a PPC just makes more sense.

So in my opinion this move by HP is rather meaningless. I wouldn't buy any HP PPC (or whatever they're to be called now), but not because they are no longer including Outlook; no, it's just that they're not making any interesting PPCs.

[isajoo]

whats outlook for? i have it on my ppc, anyone want to buy my LEGAL copy...maybe i will ebay it. LOL

[Mark Larson]

Gerard, that's really funny, because I was hooked on Smartphones because of their integration with Outlook. I always back up my contacts to my PC because then if my phone decides to give up the ghost, gets run over by a car (happened once), goes on the fritz and I have to send it in for a warranty replacement, etc etc, I have a backup on the computer.

I sync to get the contacts uploaded to my computer and to charge. Have done so since my first Bluetooth phone.

[Gerard]

That's another way of keeping PIM databases backed up, sure, if it works for you. Great. But making regular copies of backup files to second and third cards, and to an external hard drive, and keeping these in separate and in a couple of cases more secure locations works for me. I also upload my backups on occasion to a secure FTP server, in case everything else goes sour. That way all I need is internet access, an FTP client, and a PPC, and I can download my passworded self-extracting backup file and install to the same or a new device. Takes a few minutes.

Outlook restores from a PC via Activesync, on the other hand, and if they work at all with a new device, take a looooong time. And of course if the PC fails, well, that's one useless backup. And backups on a PC take ages and are usually less reliable than Sprite, at least in my experience, and I have tried a few. Backups of my PPC take less than 3 minutes. Restores less than 2. Simple, effective, reliable, and most importantly for me... independent from that clunker of a PC.

But yeah, to each their own. I'm just saying Outlook is no great loss, there are other ways of doing things. And they are often simpler, and arguably better.

[nutzareus]

The "new" HP way. See a pattern here? Jornada product line.. dead.. Carly Fiorina.. fired.. absorbed Compaq iPAQ product line.. life support... soon to be dead...

Not bashing HP 100%, I still have my Jornada 420 and 720 and iPAQ 3835, but this is rediculous? Even though I personally never installed Outlook or ActiveSync from the included CD, there are plenty of non power users that probably do install from it. Heck, there are plenty of users out there who still use Act! for contact management.

[Rod3]

I don't consider myself a "non-power user" and I have always, forever, since my first Jornada, installed Outlook from the PPC disk. I hate Office. I use Textmaker on some of my computers, and OpenOffice on others. I would have no access to Outlook at all if it weren't included on the disks. I think this is the dumbest idea I ever heard of. I like syncing my contacts and calendar over my several computers and too many to name Pocket PCs, and I do that with Outlook. I even sync my four Zauruses and several Palms to Outlook through Intellisync. This really sucks. Of course, I'm sure I'm way behind times. I've given up on using a convergent device, and hope to get rid of my cingular 8125 soon and find a Pocket PC that will be the Final Toy. And that's probably a joke! :roll: I'll just have to use an older copy of Outlook if it's not included. bummer....

[scoopster]

I agree with he who said it may be related to MS (and Vista) as much as HP --i.e. MS doesn't want "old" versions of Outlook being shipped...remember they now ship 2002 not even the 2003 version. [is 2002 even compatible with Vista?]

My guess: MS doesn't want to give out Outlook 2007 just yet, as it's too new (i.e. valuable in their mind to "give" away). My expectation -- expect to see MS push greater integration with Hotmail and their Windows Live online thing -- based on the fact that nearly all PPCs these days have connectivity built-in (WiFi at minimum, but increasingly WWAN).

[x51vuser]

The version of Office "Student and Teacher" 2003 included Outlook. The new 2007 version excludes Outlook. They have packaged things in such away that you now have to buy the more expensive "Standard" version in order to get Outlook.....

This is not correct. I presume you talk about Home&amp;Student version but did not notice that H&amp;S can be bought by any individual and installed on 3 PCs. You can still buy discounted versions of various Office 2007 suites for students and teachers at so called academical pricing. You just have to show edu institution ID to the retailer. Well not every retailer demands such ID but that is another story.

I think the HP's decision was due to tremendous number of bugs in Outlook and its overall poor design. If HP kept selling OEMs version of Outllok (any version), HP would also had to provide customer's support and that would be very costly. I bet we will see same decision from other WM PDAs, smartphones manufacturers.

[Darius Wey]

i.e. MS doesn't want "old" versions of Outlook being shipped...remember they now ship 2002 not even the 2003 version. [is 2002 even compatible with Vista?]

Outlook 2002 is compatible with Windows Vista and the Windows Mobile Device Center. Dave's suggestion (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=433092#433092) is a plausible one, although I have yet to hear whether that is indeed the case and I'm aware of a few new devices shipping from other manufacturers this half year that still include Outlook on their respective companion CDs.

[ScottC]

Put me in the category of people that can understand them not delivering it anymore. I too have at least 10 PPC cd's here with Outlook on them that I never used.

But to just tell people to go buy it from Microsoft seems pretty silly. They should at least offer a discounted version, or some other way to get it for lower than the normal price.

I'm guessing that HP pays anywhere between $10 and $25 for each license, so from a business point of view they probably feel they are making sense.

[Paragon]

The version of Office "Student and Teacher" 2003 included Outlook. The new 2007 version excludes Outlook. They have packaged things in such away that you now have to buy the more expensive "Standard" version in order to get Outlook.....

This is not correct. I presume you talk about Home&amp;Student version but did not notice that H&amp;S can be bought by any individual and installed on 3 PCs. You can still buy discounted versions of various Office 2007 suites for students and teachers at so called academical pricing. You just have to show edu institution ID to the retailer. Well not every retailer demands such ID but that is another story.

I happen to own a copy of "Office Student and Teacher 2003" as it is called here in Canada. Anywhere that offfers academic discounts will discount this as well, which still leaves a price gap between this and the "Standard" version which includes Outlook.......anyway...I think we are getting off topic. ;)

[Paragon]

But to just tell people to go buy it from Microsoft seems pretty silly. They should at least offer a discounted version, or some other way to get it for lower than the normal price.

I think a good workable idea that would cutback on the number of free copies floating around and would narrow it down to those that would use it, would be to include a coupon for a free download of Outlook 2003. That is, IF the scenario I mentioned of it being a Microsoft decision is true.

@Darius

Have you guys asked any of your contacts at Microsoft about this?

I can easily see a situation where this is staggered throughout the list of OEMs. I'm sure they all buy bulk quantities of Windows Mobile licenses and their "supply" runs out at different times. You would think that the logical cutoff point would be shipments of WM6.0 devices....but who knows what evil works in the minds of..............;)

Dave

[Darius Wey]

Have you guys asked any of your contacts at Microsoft about this?

I've asked, although I'm not expecting a response until the start of the working week. Even then, I can't guarantee a follow-up in this thread if the information provided is NDA'ed. But I'll do my best. ;)

[Paragon]

Cool. :)

[moonlonely]

Maybe this means HP will start providing BirdieSync so that users can synchronize their data with Thunderbird? Okay, it's a longshot, but one can dream.

[TOCA]

This sounds like a bad and too early april fools day joke :roll:

I know there's a calendar program of some sort build in to Vista, and a contacts list too, but afaik it's only updated versions of MS Works.

Maybe the new Vista device center can sync those data with WM6???

Oh...hold on, I've got it :!: :idea: HP don't want single users to buy their PPC's, they are for big companys only, who can afford Windows Servers, and buy no less than 20 devices at a time 8O :evil:

[Pdaholic]

I am among the group that is not affected by this decision from HP. I use phatnotes for my notes, and I keep my contacts divided among certain notes. My datebook has not been synced in 5 years, without problems (knock on wood). I personally can't help but support HP--my 6945 is the best PDA I have owned since, well, my last HP :?

[TOCA]

I am among the group that is not affected by this decision from HP. I use phatnotes for my notes, and I keep my contacts divided among certain notes. My datebook has not been synced in 5 years, without problems (knock on wood). I personally can't help but support HP--my 6945 is the best PDA I have owned since, well, my last HP :?

8O Errhmmm...you do have access to a PC, right? :?

Da** I sync at least twice a day, and I still don't remember how I got along before I got my first PDA :?

[whydidnt]

This would make sense if MS would make the Mobile Device Center in Vista work with the included Contacts, Calendar and email programs. If you look at the MS website, it indicates you need Outlook 2003 to work with the Device Center. Some are reporting 2002 doesn't work, but I see Darius says it does. I agree with Dave that MS very well could have changed the license costs with the release of WM6 and HP decided it was too expensive based upon the number of users who don't even use the software.

I personally think it's a short sighted decision, MS has ALWAYS positioned WM as a PC companion device, hence we've had crippled office apps, limited e-mail support and a less than capable browser. Now HP or MS or whoever decides you get the companion, but can't actually sync it with your PC without the purchase of another expensive piece of software. Very Strange....

[Pdaholic]

8O Errhmmm...you do have access to a PC, right? :?

Da** I sync at least twice a day, and I still don't remember how I got along before I got my first PDA :?

A PC? What's that?

LOL, I just don't take the time to sync. I backup weekly using spb backup, and I never put my pda in the cradle anymore.

[virain]

Before I've got "hooked" on WM, I didn't had any need for Outlook as phone contact book and web mail did the job. I've installed it when I bought my first NEC with Windows CE, That's when I really start appreciate the convinience of SYNC :!:

[minimage]

0X
On the one hand, I can see HP's side of things. They're selling PDAs to users. I don't guess there are any rules which state they have to make sure the devices share info with the PCs, but they did so in the past. Still, I cannot support this, though I really don't have any stake in this. I got a copy of Office 2007 for attending a Vista launch, my employer does have an Exchange server (and we have Ofc 2007 + Work at Home), and I rarely use Outlook to sync, but I really do think that others should have the option to do so without paying extra.

I do recall the Tablet MVPs denouncing the announcement that the Student Ofc version would not have Outlook. I was denouncing it, too.

[T-Will]

Sorry, but I don't understand the people that don't sync with their PC, what happens if/when your device breaks or you want to upgrade to a newer device? How will you restore your backup if the new device is running a newer OS than the older device? You have to plug in to charge, so what makes it more difficult to plug into your PC? Do what you want, but I would highly recommend against not syncing with your PC.

[Gerard]

Sorry, but I don't understand the people that don't sync with their PC, what happens if/when your device breaks or you want to upgrade to a newer device? How will you restore your backup if the new device is running a newer OS than the older device? You have to plug in to charge, so what makes it more difficult to plug into your PC? Do what you want, but I would highly recommend against not syncing with your PC.

If/when my device breaks and I need my databases and files on a new device... I restore those files and databases to my new device. Sprite handles it just fine. Software I can re-install mostly from CAB files, standalone executables, or in rare cases install from the PC. Installing SoftMaker Office requires a PC for the initial install... but after that one can simply make a new shortcut to the EXE files.

I have taken the same Contacts, Categories, and Appointments databases from PC2000 on a Casio EG-800 to WM2002 on an iPAQ 3835, from WM2002 on the iPAQ 3835 to WM2002 on a Dell X5, then from WM2002 to WM2003 on the Dell X5 on which I upgraded the OS, then from WM2003 to WM2003 on a Toshiba e800, then from WM2003 to WM2003SE on the same Toshiba e800 when I upgraded that device. No problems. The only loss of PIM data I have EVER experienced was due to Activesync and Outlook spontaneously deleting it, without so much as a 'hey, we're wiping your data, do you care?'

I plug into a jack, with my Toshiba's USB 'Presentation Pack', where I also plug in my USB keyboard or external hard drive. Plugging into a cradle (if I had one - only 2 of the 11 PPCs I've used had cradles) would be more effort, as it'd mean booting my PC in the closet. That's just silly, for me. For you or others who want to do it that way, great, do so.

As I said, to each their own ways. I'm only pointing out that there are alternatives, that we needn't be tethered to PCs just because it's possible to use a PPC as a gadget tied to a PC as a dependent satellite. From my perspective, my PC is a media encoder and feeder for the PPC, and little else.

[blueboy]

I would have to agree with those that think its related to Vista for the following reasons.


1. HP is not that stupid.

2. It makes sense that MS is going to provide the ability to sync with the windows vista based contacts, calendar ect.. therefore eliminating the need for Outlook unless your really require the advanced functions in which case, you pay for it. (MS wants to make profit)

3. Helps to move users to Vista.

4. Windows mobile needs to appeal to the ordinary consumers who currently stay away for wm devices. Especially with the iphone and other more advanced phones with pda functions on its way this year. It makes it easier for everyone if an additional program is not required, you simply plug in or wirelessely connect your phone to the computer and it syncs with the built-in windows contacts, calendar, ect.. (assuming you have Vista)

[Paragon]

Excellent points blueboy.

After thinking about this for another day or two I've come to the conclusion that Micrsoft has to be involved in this event it some manner. The CD that contains Outlook is developed by Microsoft. The core of that CD is identical on every WM device sold. Outlook is a MS product. WM is a Microsoft platform. Partners all agree to Microsoft's partnership program. How could something like removing Outlook from packaging of a Windows Mobile product not involve Microsoft in some way?

Dave

[nutzareus]

Paragon, if you really believe this, how come HTC, Samsung, i-mate, Motorola, ETEN, etc. aren't doing this? Please explain, because I'd really like to know. If the other vendors are doing the same very soon, then I will agree with you. Otherwise, wrong answer!

[pocketpcadmirer]

Paragon, if you really believe this, how come HTC, Samsung, i-mate, Motorola, ETEN, etc. aren't doing this? Please explain, because I'd really like to know. If the other vendors are doing the same very soon, then I will agree with you. Otherwise, wrong answer!

Very well said indeed. What about the people, who are still not ready to jump to vista(and are XP users)?

[Paragon]

Paragon, if you really believe this, how come HTC, Samsung, i-mate, Motorola, ETEN, etc. aren't doing this? Please explain, because I'd really like to know. If the other vendors are doing the same very soon, then I will agree with you. Otherwise, wrong answer!

Well, as I mentioned earlier, there could easily be a traggered response to this. OEMs obviously by licences in bulk, and would therefore run out of those licences at different times as their supply runs out. HP could very easily be just the first to announce it. If true, some may not even announce it. They may just stop including it and make no mention of it on the box......MOST IMPORTANTLY we don't know till we hear Microsoft say one way or the other. Till then anything I or anyone else says is just speculation....and could very well be the wrong answer. We just don't know. There is evidence to support either view. I just happen to believe there is more supporting Microsoft's involvement

And I'll repeat what I said in my first post:
Who said this was an HP decision? There is the possibility that this is a MS decision. I'd be careful about trying to blacklist HP on something like this till you see where the rest of the OEMs go in the coming weeks and months.

Dave

[MLO]

If you're a consumer, remember that there are plenty of fish in the sea. Shop wisely. HP isn't your only option.


What options are those?

I've needed to upgrade my iPAQ 4100 for some time now and I can't find a comparable, affordable device except the rx2950 which is offered by, yes, HP.

Dell's Axims are apparently going away, Treos are too expensive and, if I'm not mistaken, don't have touch screens...which is a problem because I've got apps installed that need a touch screen.

Unless there's another company out there making nice looking, affordable Pocket PCs, I really don't have an option other than HP.

NOTE: Apparently I don't have the rx2950 as an option any more; it is no longer on HP's website. :(

[Gerard]

... Treos are too expensive and, if I'm not mistaken, don't have touch screens...which is a problem because I've got apps installed that need a touch screen.

I think you're mistaken. Looking at several articles about the Treo 650 snd 700 models I found dozens of comments about aspects of the 240 x 240 touchscreen. I don't know about too expensive... that would depend on whether or not you got one with a cellphone contract. They're often quite cheap that way, and if you shopped around, there are some reasonable contracts to be had.

[tnelson2000]

This is all so confusing to me. Currently, my hx4700 crashed and burned. It won't hard or soft reset. My guess is that it gave up trying to sync my contacts as I use BCM 2007 and Vista. I will be sending it off to PPC Techs today. :roll:

Bottom line is that I have not found a way to sync my business contacts since moving to BCM 2007. And like MS Money, I doubt if M$ will provide a way to sync BCM 2007 contacts. But maybe if I move up to MS CRM I can sync my contacts? But then that will cost me lots of $$$, and M$ wouldn't want me to send them my hard earned money would they?

[Jason Dunn]

The real problem here is that ActiveSync nor WMDC provide sync conduits to Outlook Express/Windows Mail, or the Calendering application now in Vista. Without Outlook, even an older copy, there's no way for a buyer to sync with their desktop. This is an ugly, broken scenario.

[MLO]

... Treos are too expensive and, if I'm not mistaken, don't have touch screens...which is a problem because I've got apps installed that need a touch screen.

I think you're mistaken. Looking at several articles about the Treo 650 snd 700 models I found dozens of comments about aspects of the 240 x 240 touchscreen. I don't know about too expensive... that would depend on whether or not you got one with a cellphone contract. They're often quite cheap that way, and if you shopped around, there are some reasonable contracts to be had.

Unfortunately I already have a contract with T-Mobile and their handheld offerings are sparse at best :(.

[Gerard]

The real problem here is that ActiveSync nor WMDC provide sync conduits to Outlook Express...

Does Activesync work with Outlook Express? It never used to. What version of Activesync brought OE synching?

[Paragon]

This is an ugly, broken scenario.

Ugly? Yes! Broken? No. not really. It would be broken if there was no way to sync. There is a way, we just have to pay for it now. Perhaps we have been spoiled by having it included all these years, now we have to pay for it...so, ugly, yes. Broken, no.

Dave

[T-Will]

Gerard, good to know you can backup PIM then upgrade from an old OS to a new one, I was assuming the databases would be too different to allow that capability.

[Gerard]

Well, bear in mind that my tedious listing of database transfers does NOT include WM5.0... nor of course 6.0, so I don't have first-hand experience of whether that is at all viable. Sprite Backup does include a device-upgrade mode, utilising upgrade profile files available from their site. I tried once, going from WM2002 to WM2003, but it didn't work. A straightforward restore, skipping the upgrade-mode option worked just fine. I hope they have that all ironed out when/if I do go to a newer OS... though really, I don't see anything attractive for me in either WM5 or WM6. Frills, bubblegum, the odd added bit of functionality for those afraid to add third-party software. Nothing motivating otherwise. I'm more likely to go to an Origami sort of device next, ir anything.

[Magallanes]

A pocketpc without outlook is too broken like a windows (home or workstation use) without office. Also a outlook without the rest of office application is all but broken (specially Word).

IMHO the outlook cd was all but just a decorative stuff, i bet how many people own a pocketpc and don't have office.

[Gerard]

A pocketpc without outlook is too broken like a windows (home or workstation use) without office. Also a outlook without the rest of office application is all but broken (specially Word).

IMHO the outlook cd was all but just a decorative stuff, i bet how many people own a pocketpc and don't have office.

Not sure I follow... the Outlook CD was decorative, non-essential in your opinion... but Office (of which it's a part) is necessary?

If you're saying that Word is essential, it's likely you haven't tried TextMaker.

[Darius Wey]

The real problem here is that ActiveSync nor WMDC provide sync conduits to Outlook Express...

Does Activesync work with Outlook Express? It never used to.

It doesn't work with Outlook Express. The word "neither" before "ActiveSync" in Jason's statement would have made more sense.

[Gerard]

Whoops, my mistake. That makes more sense. I was just wondering... because the other day I told a newbie on pocketpcfaq that OE synch wasn't supported, and hoped I hadn't spoken out of turn. There may be an alternate route for synching OE, but yeah, Activesync ain't it.

[x51vuser]

It doesn't work with Outlook Express. The word "neither" before "ActiveSync" in Jason's statement would have made more sense.

it was optional becasue he used 'nor' not 'not'

*** Quote trimmed by DW. ***

[x51vuser]

A pocketpc without outlook is too broken like a windows (home or workstation use) without office. Also a outlook without the rest of office application is all but broken (specially Word).

IMHO the outlook cd was all but just a decorative stuff, i bet how many people own a pocketpc and don't have office.

true it was more like a promotion from Redmond and only for 2002 version. Plus Office 2007 turns out cheaper than 2003. HP removed outdated 2002 Outlook. I am not aware any Pocket PC manufacturer included newer version than 2002. On Pocket PC you do not have just Pocket Outlook but also Pocket Word, Excel, Power Point so actually HP's decision makes sense. It is hard to expect they funded all these apps on the CD that comes with device. Most PC users already have Office.

[Darius Wey]

it was optional becasue he used 'nor' not 'not'

Actually, "nor" is a conjunction and is used to continue the force of a negative (except in the case where it follows an auxiliary verb), so a correlative preceding "neither" in this particular instance is grammatically correct.

On that note, this is really off-topic. ;)

[Janak Parekh]

Ugly? Yes! Broken? No. not really.
Sorry, Dave, I disagree. Vista comes with PIM tools out of the box and a mobile sync infrastructure, but with no way to connect them. That's simply broken. Other operating systems (in fact, ones that served as inspiration for Vista's calendaring and address book applets) also comes with a well-evolved sync infrastructure right out of the box. Moreover, I can't tell you how many times I've seen requests for a non-Outlook sync solution from end-users. Many people would be thrilled if there was sync support for the "simple" apps. It just makes sense.

--janak

[Paragon]

Ugly? Yes! Broken? No. not really.
Sorry, Dave, I disagree. Vista comes with PIM tools out of the box and a mobile sync infrastructure, but with no way to connect them. That's simply broken. Other operating systems (in fact, ones that served as inspiration for Vista's calendaring and address book applets) also comes with a well-evolved sync infrastructure right out of the box. Moreover, I can't tell you how many times I've seen requests for a non-Outlook sync solution from end-users. Many people would be thrilled if there was sync support for the "simple" apps. It just makes sense.

--janak

Yeah, I understand all that Janak, and I even agree with most of it, but it doesn't change the point I was trying to make, which is that it still works as well as it ever did, except now you have to pay for it. Janak, there are dozens of parallels that can be shown were there is no sync, or connection out of the box. WM devices have the ability to sync using Exchange, yet MS does not offer a free Exchnage service. Yes, others do, but it's not out of the box. The same goes for Word and Excel, are they broken as well, since there is no way to sync them out of the box. Desktop versions of Excel and Word have never been included.

I think this development hampers the ability to sync for some people, but it is far from breaking it......and by no means am I saying I agree with removing it, I and others have just offered some rational reasons as to why this may be happening.



Dave

[Janak Parekh]

[Yeah, I understand all that Janak, and I even agree with most of it, but it doesn't change the point I was trying to make, which is that it still works as well as it ever did, except now you have to pay for it.
Sorry, I don't understand you at all. :? Vista was supposed to revolutionize the sync experience. It comes with a calendaring app, one that did not exist before. It also comes with a new sync "product", built-in. Please tell me how you can even pay for a sync solution between the Vista calendar and a Pocket PC.

WM devices have the ability to sync using Exchange, yet MS does not offer a free Exchnage service.
This comparison doesn't make sense. Vista doesn't come with Exchange service, nor an Exchange client. It does come with an Address Book and a Calendar.

The same goes for Word and Excel, are they broken as well, since there is no way to sync them out of the box. Desktop versions of Excel and Word have never been included.
Right -- but other apps are included.

...I and others have just offered some rational reasons as to why this may be happening.
I'm trying to make a different point here, which was specifically stated by Jason. The fact that Vista can't use its built-in sync to sync to its built-in apps is inexcusable and broken. Sorry, but I don't think that's rational on the part of Microsoft.

--janak

[Paragon]

Sorry, I don't understand you at all. :? Vista was supposed to revolutionize the sync experience. .

Your confused? Imagine how I feel. ;)

What the heck has Vista got to do with it? We are talking about Outlook being removed from the WM CD, and the effects of that....at least I thought we were. :)

Dave, now states that he agrees to disagree ( he thinks) and moves on...:)

Dave

[Janak Parekh]

What the heck has Vista got to do with it? We are talking about Outlook being removed from the WM CD, and the effects of that....at least I thought we were. :)
Jason's post, the one you replied to that started this little mini-thread, said:

The real problem here is that ActiveSync nor WMDC provide sync conduits to Outlook Express/Windows Mail, or the Calendering application now in Vista. Without Outlook, even an older copy, there's no way for a buyer to sync with their desktop. This is an ugly, broken scenario.

I agree wholeheartedly with Jason. The whole situation is pathetic. Anyway, I think I've said my 2 cents on the matter, so we can put it to bed.

--janak

[Mark from Canada]

I saw a few questions regarding Outlook on Vista, and here's the scoop:
Outlook 2000 - forget abuot it. It starts, but is not really useable.
Outlook 2002 - here's where the fun begins. It is not officially supported under Vista. It does seem to run almost flawless, but you have to enter your e-mail passwords every time Outlook starts. If you have 10 accounts, enter 10 passwords. That can get annoying, and I understand why HP doesn't want to ship software that doesn't work with Vista - that's a lot of phone calls to answer.
Outlook 2003 - that's when it starts working in Vista.
So - every PPC would need to be shipped with Outlook 2003 to be able to operate properly under Vista.

I am only using Outlook that came with my devices. I don't have Microsoft Office, I don't want Microsoft Office. I prefer the WordPefect suites. I only like Outlook. And it syncs.
So for me it is a big deal that Outlook does not come with HP devices any more. I don't want to pay $150 (CDN) in addition to my device. So at this time, I keep entering my passwords in Outlook 2002 every day...
And it is going to be very interesting what will happen with the other companies. Upgrade to Outlook 2003 on the disks?

Mark

[Paragon]

I just picked up a new P4000 aka 6800 from Telus today. The CD only contains a trial for Outlook 2007. As suspected it is not only HP pulling Outlook 2002 from the Windows Mobile CDs.

Dave

[patrickwest]

:( Dumb, HP! Very, very dumb!!! Exactly what do they expect the customer to sync with ???

Windows Vista of course. It doesn't need Outlook to sync with a PPC so ....

[whydidnt]

Windows Vista of course. It doesn't need Outlook to sync with a PPC so ....

Unless I'm missing something - this isn't really true. You may be able to install programs to your PPC, but you cannot sync Vista's calendar or contacts with Windows Mobile - they aren't an option in the Windows Mobile Device Center. Since it appears MS has decided that Outlook is no longer included with WM, it would be nice if they provided the option. We are starting to see the what the lack of true competition from Palm has done to WM. As long as Palm was somewhat competitive and provided Palm Desktop MS included Outlook. Since Palm is now a non-factor they no longer include it. Just one more reason I can't wait for ALPS or Palms new Linux OS to be released so I can leave MS and their monopolistic ways! :evil:

[TOCA]

We are starting to see the what the lack of true competition from Palm has done to WM. As long as Palm was somewhat competitive and provided Palm Desktop MS included Outlook. Since Palm is now a non-factor they no longer include it. Just one more reason I can't wait for ALPS or Palms new Linux OS to be released so I can leave MS and their monopolistic ways! :evil:

Oh comon, this was not a MS decission, but a HP blunder, and Neither Linux nor Blackberry will ever become a serius competition for WM, Symbian is the only one, that gets eaven close, and it su*** comparred to WM, on most issues except for teenagers, who could care less for Office apps.

[patrickwest]

I'm not sure what, if anything, you are missing.

I'm not running Vista, but I was shown a laptop running Vista where the owner had Sync-ed a VX6700.

I also noticed that some versions of MS-Works have contacts and Calendar appear in ActiveSync.


Windows Vista of course. It doesn't need Outlook to sync with a PPC so ....

Unless I'm missing something - this isn't really true. You may be able to install programs to your PPC, but you cannot sync Vista's calendar or contacts with Windows Mobile - they aren't an option in the Windows Mobile Device Center.

[Janak Parekh]

I also noticed that some versions of MS-Works have contacts and Calendar appear in ActiveSync.
This is not possible. Works has never been supported with ActiveSync. It's far more likely the machine came bundled with a copy of Outlook, which is the only PIM platform that ActiveSync (and WMDC for Vista) has out-of-the-box support for.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Oh comon, this was not a MS decission, but a HP blunder
As Dave posted recently in this thread, HP is no longer the only vendor that is omitting Outlook. At first, it did seem like HP was at fault, but there seems to be a broader change at the platform level.

--janak

[patrickwest]

This was an XP machine with Outlook 2003 but ActiveSync had two extras which were the Works Calendar and the Works contacts.

I also noticed that some versions of MS-Works have contacts and Calendar appear in ActiveSync.
This is not possible. Works has never been supported with ActiveSync. It's far more likely the machine came bundled with a copy of Outlook, which is the only PIM platform that ActiveSync (and WMDC for Vista) has out-of-the-box support for.

--janak

[whydidnt]

Oh comon, this was not a MS decission, but a HP blunder, and Neither Linux nor Blackberry will ever become a serius competition for WM, Symbian is the only one, that gets eaven close, and it su*** comparred to WM, on most issues except for teenagers, who could care less for Office apps.

Actually, I think you might want to do some research, Paragon reported a new non-HP device he purchased only included a trial of OL2007. I have read reports on other boards that the brand new Uber Device from HTC, the Advantage also only has the trial included. I am quite inclined to believe MS made a change in their licensing terms.

FWIW, I wouldn't have a big issue with them leaving Outlook out if they provided an alternative way to sync with their standard non-Outlook apps, but of course they don't. However, without any true competition they have taken a typical MS monopolistic stance and removed a previously provided feature with no replacement. They WOULD not have done this if there was still real competition.

[Janak Parekh]

This was an XP machine with Outlook 2003 but ActiveSync had two extras which were the Works Calendar and the Works contacts.
This is highly weird. 8O A Google search suggests that Works sync may have once existed, but I don't know if it exists any longer. The AS 4.5 download states, as part of its requirements:

Microsoft® Outlook® XP, Microsoft® Outlook® 2003 or Microsoft Outlook 2007® messaging and collaboration clients required for synchronization to the desktop or portable computer of e-mail, calendar, contacts, tasks, and notes. (Outlook 2007 is recommended)

Nevertheless, Vista's Calendar and Contacts do not support sync with WMDC.

--janak

[TOCA]

OK, I stand corected, HP is not allone on this one :oops:

But I'm not that worried, so far, I can sync with Google mail and calendar, and in a near future, I belive that the rest of Google Office will get there too 8)

Later Yahoo will have to follow up on that one, and then I have two services to choce from, for free 8)

Then maybe MS will wake up, and provide me with another free alternative :?

Maybe we should all send a request to the nice people behind Open Office, and ask for WM support? Now THAT would be too cool 8)

[patrickwest]

This was an XP machine with Outlook 2003 but ActiveSync had two extras which were the Works Calendar and the Works contacts.
This is highly weird. 8O A Google search suggests that Works sync may have once existed, but I don't know if it exists any longer.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309501

http://www.smartcomputing.com/editorial/article.asp?article=articles/archive/G0909/49G09/49G09.asp


.

[Janak Parekh]

I also googled and saw those two same articles. ;) However, both of them are quite old, and I find few, if any, more recent references.

--janak