Sorry, Not Even Close

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/10/05/The-Emperor-Has-No-Close.aspx">http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/10/05/The-Emperor-Has-No-Close.aspx</a><br /><br />Mike Calligaro has written up a blog post called "The Emperor Has No Close." It is the latest apologetic work :wink: on why the Pocket PC has a button that looks like a close button but is really nothing more than the equivalent of the minimize button.<br /><br />Over three years ago I wrote an article about the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13460">lack of a close button</a> and except for the logo requirements changing, the article and most of your comments are right on point. I don't really see a need to rehash all of the points brought up in that thread, though <i>you</i> are certainly free to do so. :devilboy: I do know from a user point of view, the memory management is not any better than it was then - at least from my observations. I have to forcibly kill PIE at least once a day to get my K-Jam back up above 2MB of free RAM, which seems to be the magic point at which it runs like it has a 16MHz 286 processor with the "turbo" switch off.

[elbowz]

2Mb? What are you running. I've just popped up the task manager on my XDA mini s and it has 10Mb of program memory free with the following applications open: activesync, calendar, excel mobile (twice!) file explorer, haali reader, internet explorer, notes, outlook email, task manager and tcpmp.

I've found that it copes much better with the day to day load of programs than any other Windows Mobile device - and I've not ever had to reset/force close apps.

Not that I disagree with you mind, I'd like to be the one that decides whether a program is closed or minimised and not leave it up to the OS...

[Ed Hansberry]

Right now, it shows 3.1MB free.

Running apps are:

ActiveSync (syncing with Exchange 2003 SP2)
Pocket Informant
Internet Explore
Inbox is running

That's it. I have Resco's Today plugin instlled and in use. That's it. Note - I have no doubt if I did a soft reset and relaunched these same apps, I'd have over 10MB free, but after a few hrs of launching apps and using the device, I'd be right back where I am, fighting with the OS to close things so I can work.

[posiedon7]

Ed do you have a lot of contacts stored on your device. If you do, this is known to be a huge memory hog, especially on the KJams. Buddy of mine had the KJam with over 5,000 contacts (realtor) and the unit crawled. He widdled away at the contacts and got it under 1200 and now the unit runs at a decent speed.

Hope that helps.

Rick

[SteveHoward999]

ActiveSync (syncing with Exchange 2003 SP2)
Pocket Informant
Internet Explore
Inbox is running


I've always found ActiveSync to be a resource hog. I always kill the process. Still only running WM2003SE, though, so I don't know if it's still as bad on WM5

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed do you have a lot of contacts stored on your device.

less than 700.

[BugDude10]

Back on topic...

(1) Is there anyone on God's green Earth who doesn't already know that the "Close" button doesn't really close anything without a third-party app installed, and that the WM OS is supposedly watching your memory for you? Did we need another article about this subject?

(2) Isn't there enough evidence already that WM should have a real "Close" button? I use Spb's Pocket Plus, set to close things when I click the "Close" button, so this isn't an ongoing issue for me. Whenever I poke around the Pocket PCs at the local Comp USA or Best Buy or whatever, the devices always have 16 apps currently running. Whether or not those apps are actually doing anything at that precise moment, and whether or not the device still has memory and horsepower to do more, shouldn't WM be closing down some of these things over time?

[Janak Parekh]

I've always found ActiveSync to be a resource hog. I always kill the process. Still only running WM2003SE, though, so I don't know if it's still as bad on WM5
You need ActiveSync running if you're using it for push email, as I do...

Anyway, I agree with Ed: this article is apologetic, but not particularly insightful. When Microsoft's own bundled programs do not work correctly without the ability to close, their credibility is shot on this discussion.

--janak

[whydidnt]

The scary part of the blog posting is this line from Mike in the responses:

"Zacho, I know you feel strongly about this, but I'm sorry to say that the chance of the icon being changed is pretty small. A more likely long term change is to move toward the Smartphone and Symbian model (yes, Symbian doesn't let you close apps either) where there's no button at all and the only way to put the app away is to navigate to a different one."

So, it sounds like they are thinking about taking a bad decision and making it worse by not even giving us a button to gripe about -- or modify to CLOSE for that matter. I've never used a Symbian device, so have no idea if they do a decent enough job of managing memory that this isn't an issue. But I've owned close to a dozen PPC/WM devices and I have yet to find one that does it acceptably. Sounds like MS is intent on dumbing down the OS enough that no power user will even want to buy a device running it.

[SteveHoward999]

You need ActiveSync running if you're using it for push email, as I do...


Yes I know. But a resource hog is a resource hog, no matter what work it's doing.

[Chairman Clench]

Back on topic...

(1) Is there anyone on God's green Earth who doesn't already know that the "Close" button doesn't really close anything without a third-party app installed, and that the WM OS is supposedly watching your memory for you? Did we need another article about this subject?

Yes, pretty much every single new user of a WM device. A new user would assume that a little "X" in the upper right corner would mean close. That same user would not imagine that someone in Redmond is so twisted as to not make it do so.

[Paragon]

I don't know what all the discussion is about....Microsoft knows much better how to manage our deviices. They must, they've told us so, many times. :devilboy:

[Ed Hansberry]

You need ActiveSync running if you're using it for push email, as I do...


Yes I know. But a resource hog is a resource hog, no matter what work it's doing.

Yes, I know. But a necessary process is a necessary process no matter how much of a hog it is.

[Janak Parekh]

Sounds like MS is intent on dumbing down the OS enough that no power user will even want to buy a device running it.
Not quite -- it's a lot more complicated than that, and ties into Microsoft's vision of future mobile devices. Alas, I can't tell you what that means. :? It is very cool though, and if they can fix memory management, the assertion that we shouldn't have to manage memory makes sense.

And, of course, I'd hope that no matter what Microsoft does, third-party close tools will exist.

--janak

[k1darkknight]

Whether or not those apps are actually doing anything at that precise moment, and whether or not the device still has memory and horsepower to do more, shouldn't WM be closing down some of these things over time?
You know, now that you mention it, it DOES seem like that was one of the capabilities they touted with the "new and improved" memory management...being able to close unused apps, that is...But who ever accused Micro$oft of actually keeping their promises?
That same user would not imagine that someone in Redmond is so twisted...
Well...unless they've used OTHER M$ products for any length of time.
Hey, they actually tried to SELL Windows ME for a while!


...until they realized they couldn't even GIVE it away... :p

[jickbahtech]

I just dont understand why we can't have close and minimize buttons. That would seem to make more people happy then one or the other...

[malcolmsharp]

Not quite -- it's a lot more complicated than that, and ties into Microsoft's vision of future mobile devices. Alas, I can't tell you what that means. :? It is very cool though, and if they can fix memory management, the assertion that we shouldn't have to manage memory makes sense.

--janak

Here is the key problem....

Even if they somehow got the small chip in my handheld to magically get memory managment pefect, there is still one problem left.....

I, and only I, knows when I'm done using an app. And when I'm done, I want for it to go away. Do you think that your desktop, with tons more resources, will know better than you when you are done with a task?

This is dumber than Apple not having a two button mouse. Even Mac users that accept they don't need more than one button understand minimize and close. And nobody that isn't that hip on computer use isn't going to get a PDA.

This is just a bad idea, that somebody at the top says is law, no matter what reality is.

[Lex]

On my laptop MS Office apps have minimize, reduce and close buttons. That would have been logical functionality for the MS PPCs. It's senseless the way it is. But I like Wisbar Advance anyway.

[whydidnt]

It is very cool though, and if they can fix memory management, the assertion that we shouldn't have to manage memory makes sense.

And, of course, I'd hope that no matter what Microsoft does, third-party close tools will exist. --janak

Of course some of us cynics might say that we are now on the 5th version of this OS and MS STILL hasn't gotten that memory management right. What would make any of us think that they'll get it right in version 6 or 7 or 99? :devilboy:

I think most third party close tools map the X button MINIMIZE function to a CLOSE function, correct? If MS removes the X button, how will a third party enable us to directly close an application. The best we could hope for is a pop-up style task manager that would allow us to select the program from a list and close it.

[ppcsurfr]

I think the biggest mistake isn't really the function of that particular icon just minimizing an app... It's the icon itself!

If you used an arrow down icon instead, or some other character, I think less people would actually complain about it.

If it had the letter "M" on it instead of the "X" would you think that it was a close button?

Anyway, the most logical thing that ever happened came from SPB... Pocket Plus... Tap and hold on it... it drops down a list of running apps, tap on it, it closes, tap and drag down it minimizes...

[Janak Parekh]

I, and only I, knows when I'm done using an app. And when I'm done, I want for it to go away.
I understand exactly what you're saying, and I wholeheartedly agree that humans have been better judges than Pocket PCs. I know, I close apps all the time. However, I can't speak more to the future without giving out NDA material, so we'll stay in agreement over this for the time being.

Even Mac users that accept they don't need more than one button understand minimize and close.
Actually, the red X on a Mac does not close applications 99% of the time. :P You have to command-Q, choose Quit from the menu, or press-and-hold on the Dock and choose Quit. Apple's philosophy is that you close windows, not apps, and that common apps should stay open to enable rapid reuse. Clicking the dock icon for an app that's running but not closed (as evidenced by the triangle) tells that app to pop up a new work window. (There are 1% of apps that are single-window, and will close when you hit the X, but that's the exception, not the rule.)

Now, a Mac has tons more memory than a Pocket PC, and you still have that option to quit. It's just interesting to note that it doesn't behave as you suggest. ;) And, if you haven't noticed, all Mac desktops ship with right-click-enabled mice today. And, as a Powerbook owner, I can attest to the fact that the unit is not critically hampered with just one button on the trackpad, even though I primarily use it with two-button mice.

And nobody that isn't that hip on computer use isn't going to get a PDA.
For Pocket PCs, that's mostly true. For Smartphones, that's not. The Smartphone runs a lot like a cell phone, and as such doesn't have a close button. I do understand you're referring to the former specifically, though...

This is just a bad idea, that somebody at the top says is law, no matter what reality is.
Well... that's not entirely true. Should Microsoft make the Start menu optional, for instance? That is to say, who defines what reality is and isn't? Were there thousands of people during the PSPC days clamoring for a top-down Start menu instead of a bottom-up cascading Start button? I understand your point perfectly, but Microsoft has a vision of these devices, however flawed, so they do want to execute on that.

I for one am glad that, at least, there are good third-party applications to modify that behavior when I don't see eye-to-eye with Microsoft. That flexibility is the key as to why I'm a big fan of Windows Mobile.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Of course some of us cynics might say that we are now on the 5th version of this OS and MS STILL hasn't gotten that memory management right. What would make any of us think that they'll get it right in version 6 or 7 or 99? :devilboy:
I've certainly been one of them.

I think most third party close tools map the X button MINIMIZE function to a CLOSE function, correct? If MS removes the X button, how will a third party enable us to directly close an application. The best we could hope for is a pop-up style task manager that would allow us to select the program from a list and close it.
Have you used Magic Button (http://www.trancreative.com/mb.aspx)? It adds buttons and several task management facilities to a different spot on the Start bar. Pretty cool, actually. :)

--janak

[karlth]

The main problem for me personally is not the memory issue but rather that the application doesn't close, to be restarted again.

Microsoft thinks all of us use "applets" instead of applications. An applet doesn't start or end, it just is there like the Contact and Calendar applications.

The problem is that a lot of the major application's don't behave like that. Games being probably the best example. You don't want a game to go into a background when you close it. You want it to Close.