Cingular 8525 Gets Closer to Release

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/10/04/8525-caught-roaming-on-cingular/' target='_blank'>http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/...ng-on-cingular/</a><br /><br /></div>There's always the telltale signs when a device starts nearing release -- namely, more blurry pics of the device found in the wild. (Seriously, will <i>someone</i> teach the world how to use macro mode? It's not hard!) This is also the case with the Cingular 8525; Engadget Mobile reports a sighting of the device on, and live.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20061004-Cingular8525.jpg" /><br /><br />There's another shot on Engadget Mobile's site that clearly shows Cingular's logo. Timeframe? Rumored to be within the next 30 days. I'm seriously tempted to get one of these. :)

[bvkeen]

If you get one, I'd love to see your review. This is the one I'm thinking seriously about. Tried to get in on the beta of it, but was too late in showing my interest in it (approval is still pending but not likely happen with release so near). With the beefed up specs from the 8125, I'm pretty sure this one would meet my PDA needs, so I'd personally be most interested in reviews of phone quality and the 3G network.

[kzemach]

If you get one, I'd love to see your review. This is the one I'm thinking seriously about. Tried to get in on the beta of it, but was too late in showing my interest in it (approval is still pending but not likely happen with release so near). With the beefed up specs from the 8125, I'm pretty sure this one would meet my PDA needs, so I'd personally be most interested in reviews of phone quality and the 3G network.

I believe this is the same (or slightly modified) as the HTC TyTN, which I have had on the Cingular Network for almost a month now. Overall, I'm not all that impressed, but that may be because I switched to it from a PalmOS Treo. I've gotta say, even at 400 MHz, compared to the old Treo 600, this device is SLOW, buggy (hangs a lot), freezes requiring resets, and is far more difficult to use. I suppose I should have expected that (kinda like the switch from MacOS to Windows....), but overall my experience with the TyTN has been disappointing. I'll keep it, and start looking around for 3rd party apps to lay on to make it more user friendly.

Since you're probably used to the oddities of a WM5 device, then the annoying things for you would be the MicroSD (I mean really, am sure they could have fit an SD in there), the system hangs (unless that's normal for WM5), and the ridiculous fact that if you want a wired headset, you're stuck with a proprietary connector, and can't charge and talk at the same time! It really FORCES you to get a BT headset.

[bmcbride_81]

I've gotta say, even at 400 MHz, compared to the old Treo 600, this device is SLOW, buggy (hangs a lot), freezes requiring resets, and is far more difficult to use. I suppose I should have expected that (kinda like the switch from MacOS to Windows....), but overall my experience with the TyTN has been disappointing.


Why oh why did you switch?

[kzemach]

Why oh why did you switch?

Well, several reasons:
1. My Treo600 died, and our group uses a lot of WM5 software for demo purposes.
2. I travel international a bit, and thus a GSM cell was a good idea
3. Unfortunately Sprint does not have coverage in either Yosemite or up at the ski area I go to, making weekends all year long a complete communications blackout

Don't get me wrong, Sprint has horrible customer service, but I'm finding out quickly that the same goes for Cingular. And for the record, Cingular drops my calls even MORE than Sprint, although I didn't think that would be possible.

On the bright side, tethering the TyTN on a UTMS connection makes for a slow but usable modem option. Oh, and on a UTMS connection, Skype for PPC actually works, which is nice for international calls wth SkypeOut. Doesn't work for crap on a regular 3G connection though. Haven't used any of this for almost two weeks though as Cingular has screwed up my data plan and hasn't been able to get it working again yet...

[bvkeen]

I believe this is the same (or slightly modified) as the HTC TyTN, which I have had on the Cingular Network for almost a month now. Overall, I'm not all that impressed, but that may be because I switched to it from a PalmOS Treo. I've gotta say, even at 400 MHz, compared to the old Treo 600, this device is SLOW, buggy (hangs a lot), freezes requiring resets, and is far more difficult to use. I suppose I should have expected that (kinda like the switch from MacOS to Windows....), but overall my experience with the TyTN has been disappointing. I'll keep it, and start looking around for 3rd party apps to lay on to make it more user friendly.

Since you're probably used to the oddities of a WM5 device, then the annoying things for you would be the MicroSD (I mean really, am sure they could have fit an SD in there), the system hangs (unless that's normal for WM5), and the ridiculous fact that if you want a wired headset, you're stuck with a proprietary connector, and can't charge and talk at the same time! It really FORCES you to get a BT headset.

Hmmm, sounds like I at least ought to start thinking about what else to do with the money. Will keep my eyes open for other reviews. As for the overall speed, I had gotten somewhat accustomed to a bit more slowness when I had a 700w with Verizon (only very recently sold it off), and I didn't really have very many problems with WM5, except for intial activesync and appointment alarm problems (former fixed with 4.1, latter fixed with MemMaid). I'm not thrilled with WM5, but did get accustomed to it - it does have some advantages. But, I can understand your disappointment after switching from a 650: that was the best phone I ever had. Shame it couldn't multi-task.

[Janak Parekh]

I believe this is the same (or slightly modified) as the HTC TyTN, which I have had on the Cingular Network for almost a month now.
Well, keep in mind that the ROM on the TyTN may differ from the Cingular one; fixes may have been issued; that's one reason I generally wait for the carrier's release. There's also the possibility that applications may be interfering with your device's stability. I have to say that none of my WM devices in the last 5 years froze more than once a month on average (unless RAM was at a premium, as it is sometimes on the Treo). I also have had zero speed issues with my 312MHz Treo.

the MicroSD (I mean really, am sure they could have fit an SD in there)
It is annoying, but I'll deal with it. microSD prices are dropping anyway. :)

the system hangs (unless that's normal for WM5)
It's not. My Treo is generally quite stable on a day-to-day basis. Either there's a problem with your ROM, the device, or an application being used on it.

and the ridiculous fact that if you want a wired headset, you're stuck with a proprietary connector, and can't charge and talk at the same time!
Hmm. The lack of a headset port is a little unfortunate, although I presume you can find an adapter. Since I have a Bluetooth headset anyway, which I find far more convenient, I use that. :)

--janak

[netboy]

Engadget Mobile reports a sighting of the device on, and live.




how do u define "live"? if u look carefully at the screen, there is no SIM CARD inside the 8525?? y is that?

[kzemach]

Well, keep in mind that the ROM on the TyTN may differ from the Cingular one; fixes may have been issued; that's one reason I generally wait for the carrier's release. There's also the possibility that applications may be interfering with your device's stability. I have to say that none of my WM devices in the last 5 years froze more than once a month on average (unless RAM was at a premium, as it is sometimes on the Treo). I also have had zero speed issues with my 312MHz Treo.

--janak

Janek-

Interesting thought. For the first several weeks I added ONE, and only one program: coPilot for GPS tracking/mapping. All the hangs and required resets happen in the standard applications, such as address book and calendar. I have to be very careful not to try to open one, then the other too quickly. There are also sometimes delays of more than 10 seconds for the screen to rotate when I'm in Contacts. Sometimes not. I have now added a second program (BatMemTime), and that's it so far.

So perhaps you're correct that Cingular has made mods and corrections... it sure needs it.

Then there are the other annoying WM5 things which make you wonder if anyone at MS actually usese the OS. For instance, on the Today screen, the upper right hand button (below the screen) maps to open the contacts, whereas the left opens calendar. If I open the phone app, the left button is now the contacts, and the right the Menu. In another view of the phone software, the contacts mode moves to a soft button, and the left hardware key turns to something else. I realize I'm being really nitpicky here, but why not keep a consistent access button for the contacts, instead of moving it all over the place depending upon what screen you're on? The left/right switch alone is annoying.

One other thing I hope the fixed on the Cingular is the backlighting on the keyboard. Say it's dark, and I want to type in a contact to look for them. So I open the contacts, and THEN (this is apparently what I shouldn't do) slide open the keyboard to type in a contact name. But the keyboard doesn't light up until you press a key, but since it's dark, inevitably, the first key you hit will be the wrong one. Luckily, the keyboard lights up at this point, so you can find and hit the delete key and then type the key you wanted to.... If I open the keyboard, it's really likely I'm going to USE IT, so why not light it up? I find stuff like this pretty annoying.

[Janak Parekh]

If you get one, I'd love to see your review.
Me too. :lol: It may happen, but I have to be honest: it may take some time. I'll be getting a new job in January if things go as planned, and I'll probably do a carrier switch, etc., at that point, making sure my phone works both at work and at home.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

All the hangs and required resets happen in the standard applications, such as address book and calendar.
8O Unless the Copilot added some startup program, this is not a good sign, and definitely not WM5's fault. You may want to try the device "entirely clean" to see if the problem goes away. If it does not, you might even have a hardware issue.

I have to be very careful not to try to open one, then the other too quickly.
That's just nuts. I never think about this -- I start programs as I want to, no crashes. 10 second rotation also sounds too long. Is that literally 10 full seconds (one-one thousand, etc.)?

Then there are the other annoying WM5 things which make you wonder if anyone at MS actually usese the OS.
Well, WM5 is the first Pocket PC OS that supports one-handedness, and indeed there are quirks (the most famous being mailbox switching in Messaging cannot be done without touching the screen). From what I've heard, some of the issues with one-handability will eventually be corrected. In the meantime, your finger will probably learn the current idiosyncratic behavior. No, it's not ideal, but it's a lot better than pre-WM5.

One other thing I hope the fixed on the Cingular is the backlighting on the keyboard. Say it's dark, and I want to type in a contact to look for them. So I open the contacts, and THEN (this is apparently what I shouldn't do) slide open the keyboard to type in a contact name. But the keyboard doesn't light up until you press a key, but since it's dark, inevitably, the first key you hit will be the wrong one. Luckily, the keyboard lights up at this point, so you can find and hit the delete key and then type the key you wanted to.... I find stuff like this most annoying.
Interesting. The Treo 700w tends to light the keyboard at almost every opportunity, so I haven't had that issue. We'll see if the Cingular version fixes it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. What you could do is to "finger-memorize" the location of a harmless key (say, Shift) so you can toggle it to get the keys to light up. I've done that on other devices in the past.

--janak

[bvkeen]

If you get one, I'd love to see your review.
Me too. :lol: It may happen, but I have to be honest: it may take some time. I'll be getting a new job in January if things go as planned, and I'll probably do a carrier switch, etc., at that point, making sure my phone works both at work and at home.

--janak

Good luck with the job change, and the carrier change as well. I recently dropped Verizon, only because I retire at year end and continuing to have two carriers (them plus Cingular) no longer made sense - not traveling enough now to justify it. I dropped Verizon only because they were they more expensive of the two plans I was carrying. Time will tell if this was the better move. I know I do miss the Treo 700w. Very nice device. Small screen was a pain in the butt at times, but all converged devices have some tradeoffs involved with them.

[alese]

The reviews and opinions on HTC Hermes are quite positive, so hangs and slowdowns are very probably problem of this specific unit (maybe HW or maybe ROM).
Like Janak said, WM5 is not perfect and has it's share of strange "sollutions" but it really does not hang and even on my Wizard with 200MHz CPU the speed is bearable.

In any case I guess Jason could shed some light on how good/bad Hermes is since he got one on Mobius.

[andydempsey]

I'm a little dubious about this one actually. I currently have an 8125 which I picked up back in Feb through the biz channel (no more access sadly). Not that long ago, but I am having serious problems with screen alignment an even sometimes a complete failure of the digitizer, requiring a soft reset.

After doing some research on the xda developer forums, it appears to be a common occurance on not just the 8125 and its bretheren, but also the 8525 and its bretheren! Appears to be a HTC problem.

It has to a large extent, put me off pocket PC phones to the point I am considering switching to a smartphone such as the samsung i607 which is rumored to be coming to cingular. You have no idea how frustratin a misaligned or dead digitizer is, until it happens to you at a critical time and you are forced to soft rest....

grrrrrr.

[cswindell]

".....I believe this is the same (or slightly modified) as the HTC TyTN, which I have had on the Cingular Network for almost a month now."

I was just wondering if you like the backlight on your TyTn....I have read a ton of reviews on this lil gadget for quite some time now and I have not seen any body comment on the keyboard backlight. I understand that you have to push a button to make the keyboard light up but I just haven't seen any comments on what color they are....are they bright.....please elaborate.

[kzemach]

".....I believe this is the same (or slightly modified) as the HTC TyTN, which I have had on the Cingular Network for almost a month now."

I was just wondering if you like the backlight on your TyTn....I have read a ton of reviews on this lil gadget for quite some time now and I have not seen any body comment on the keyboard backlight. I understand that you have to push a button to make the keyboard light up but I just haven't seen any comments on what color they are....are they bright.....please elaborate.

The backlight, when it's on, is blue, and really quite nice. Plenty bright enough. You will have no complaints about this.

[Janak Parekh]

I'm a little dubious about this one actually. I currently have an 8125 which I picked up back in Feb through the biz channel (no more access sadly). Not that long ago, but I am having serious problems with screen alignment an even sometimes a complete failure of the digitizer, requiring a soft reset.
I'm sorry to hear about your trouble. I don't regularly read xda-developers, but I've heard a lot of people are happy with their 8125s, so I don't know what percentage of users are having trouble. Additionally, I haven't heard of any standard "HTC trouble" via the various forums I trawl, including MS MVP groups. I don't mean to discount the problem, but I do know there are plenty of happy Wizard users. It's also worth pointing out HTC has a lot of experience in touchscreens; the Treos are manufactured by HTC as well.

As a minimum, you should get the unit replaced -- the behavior you describe is unacceptable. Even if it's a biz channel unit, why wouldn't you be able to process the replacement through regular channels? Also, if you don't currently have any, consider screen protection. I'm not sure that's relevant to your problem, but it can't hurt.

--janak

[Jeff Song]

After having used PDAs (wm and pos) for a while now, I have to say that there is a steeper learning curve to wm. I personally enjoy it but others that aren't as experienced might get frustrated. There's usually a reaon for massive slowdowns on a device. I find that doing a soft reset once in a while helps tremendously. I have spb backup do its thing once a week...the end result is an automatic soft reset. I find that most weeks, this one reset is good enough but other weeks I might reset again midway, especially when I use ie mobile excessively. However, I will confidently state that I won't be using another pos device unless a brand new os is released (like that will ever happen). even with the quirks, I think I can say that wm is Far superior (for MY needs) than pos.

[dh]

I'm looking at the 8525 with some interest.

After using my Zaurus C860 for a couple of years, I bought the SP5 as my first converged device. While it has some nice features, the whole experience has not been thrilling. I really want to get something with a larger screen and better keyboard.

The 8525 certainly has some good specifications, but I am somewhat afraid of poor HTC quality and I'm not sure I really want to stay with WM, although I might not have any real choice.

So right now, the 8525 is on my list, along with the E61/62. The fact that Papyrus will soon be available for the E62 makes it an attractive proposition and I'm sure it's more stable than WM. I was in the Cingular store yesterday and would have bought an E62 if they had actually had one in stock. As it happened, the bloke had no idea what I was talking about.

[Janak Parekh]

After having used PDAs (wm and pos) for a while now, I have to say that there is a steeper learning curve to wm.
Did you use PalmOS first?

I found that I had a steeper learning curve to Windows Mobile primarily because I was used to PalmOS, and my hand would keep on going to the parts of the screen corresponding to PalmOS features, not WM features. Once I managed to retrain that, I found WM easier. Now, I find PalmOS hard by comparison. ;)

Also, in terms of stability, PalmOS used to be stable, but recent devices seem to have stability problems. My mom has a TX that was given to her by her work, and it soft-resets automatically randomly, about once a week, sometimes more. :? Nothing special installed, either.

--janak

[Underwater Mike]

Then there are the other annoying WM5 things which make you wonder if anyone at MS actually usese the OS. For instance, on the Today screen, the upper right hand button (below the screen) maps to open the contacts, whereas the left opens calendar. If I open the phone app, the left button is now the contacts, and the right the Menu. In another view of the phone software, the contacts mode moves to a soft button, and the left hardware key turns to something else. I realize I'm being really nitpicky here, but why not keep a consistent access button for the contacts, instead of moving it all over the place depending upon what screen you're on? The left/right switch alone is annoying.

This is actually my number one complaint with the 8125 (I figure all the call drops are Cingular's network, not the device). It seems like there was absolutely no usability testing here. It drives me nuts! :silly:

[bvkeen]

Also, in terms of stability, PalmOS used to be stable, but recent devices seem to have stability problems. My mom has a TX that was given to her by her work, and it soft-resets automatically randomly, about once a week, sometimes more. :? Nothing special installed, either.

--janak
Janak,
Although the PDA I use is a WM5-upgraded 4700, I also have a TX that I dabble with from time to time. If your Mom's IT folks will allow the installation of software on her TX, I would suggest adding a freeware utility called RLock. It can "lock" selected applications so that they behave properly in NVRAM. Palm's NVRAM implementation suffers in some regards, and particularly with some apps. I seem to recall you mentioning that you set her device up to do WiFi syncing, and I _think_ the wifi connection software is probably the software that needs to be locked. I know that the TX web browser must be locked with Rlock before it has a chance of working without hanging the device up.

Like you, I have found that Palm has "devolved" somewhat in its usability as compared to WM5. This was particularly evident to me when I had the Treo 700w, and the one-handed operations made the device very, very easy to use. The one-handedness has a ways to go, both within the OS and with a lot of apps (although Alex is doing great things with it on PI 2007), but it is a step forward that Palm hasn't made.

Anyway, the Rlock utility might help your Mom out, might not ... I don't know for sure, but it is probably worth a try.

All that aside, I am still looking forward to the release of the 8525. I have a couple of friends who have been happy with the 8125.

[Jason Lee]

I find my 8125 waaaaaay more stable than my k-jam ever was. Cingular does very rigorous testing on their new devices. That is why it took 6 months after the other wizzards came out for cingular to release theirs.
The same is true with the 3125. The HTC and Qtek versions are riddled with bugs and lockups. So far the 3125 has been rock solid. I am very impressed with the stability of cingular devices. Which was not the case with my old sx66... :lol:

But the new ones are doing well.

Those having trouble with their 8125s make sure you have the latest rom update that was released a several months ago. There are still some devices floating around out there in the stores that come with the old rom. You thing they would open the box and update that in the store. :)

[Janak Parekh]

Although the PDA I use is a WM5-upgraded 4700, I also have a TX that I dabble with from time to time. If your Mom's IT folks will allow the installation of software on her TX, I would suggest adding a freeware utility called RLock.
Thanks, I'll check it out. Her IT folks are clueless, so the device hasn't been locked down.

I know that the TX web browser must be locked with Rlock before it has a chance of working without hanging the device up.
Right -- about 50% of the time she launches Blazer (or whatever it's called now), the device reboots. :?

Like you, I have found that Palm has "devolved" somewhat in its usability as compared to WM5. This was particularly evident to me when I had the Treo 700w, and the one-handed operations made the device very, very easy to use.
Well, the 700w in particular is probably the best one-handable WM5 device, thanks to the additional Palm customizations. Since it doesn't use the phone screen, it doesn't have that weird Contacts/Calendar weirdness the other devices exhibit. I hope HTC eventually takes Palm's lead and builds a customized Phone experience that works better than the out-of-box WM5 setup.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I find my 8125 waaaaaay more stable than my k-jam ever was. Cingular does very rigorous testing on their new devices. That is why it took 6 months after the other wizzards came out for cingular to release theirs.
That's very informative. Let's hope the same is the case with the 8525. :)

You thing they would open the box and update that in the store. :)
No, not consistently. When I bought my i600 Smartphone from Verizon a few years back, the unit actually was upgraded to WM2003 -- I was pleasantly surprised at that -- but the bundled CD came with software for PPC2002. :? I obviously didn't touch it, but I wouldn't have been surprised if some folks would have been very confused by that.

--janak

[bvkeen]

Well, the 700w in particular is probably the best one-handable WM5 device, thanks to the additional Palm customizations. Since it doesn't use the phone screen, it doesn't have that weird Contacts/Calendar weirdness the other devices exhibit. I hope HTC eventually takes Palm's lead and builds a customized Phone experience that works better than the out-of-box WM5 setup.

--janak

Amen! Perhaps in the interim, Spb or some other enterprising developer that reads these forums can come up with a Today plugin that at least captures 90% of the customization that Palm did. There would probably be folks "standing in line" to get such a utility.

[Mona13]

I have the 8125 and although I love it, I'm anxiously awaiting the 8525.

The built in GPS really appeals to me. I get lost constantly and this sounds really awesome.

Mona

[Mona13]

Is the 8525 the same size as the 8125? I have a great case that you can use the keyboard without taking the phone out of the case.

I would hate to have to buy a new case. It's one of the Fortte ones, really soft, etc.

Mona

[JMac]

...I'm sorry to hear about your trouble. I don't regularly read xda-developers, but I've heard a lot of people are happy with their 8125s, so I don't know what percentage of users are having trouble. Additionally, I haven't heard of any standard "HTC trouble" via the various forums I trawl, including MS MVP groups...
--janak

Janak,

I have a serious love/hate relationship w/ my 8215!

The keyboard backlight is one of the most frustrating issues. It does not light up upon sliding it out; only if you press a key. And then it stays on for exactly five seconds. Then you need to press a key again to light it up. Plus, the keyboard light is not completely helpful because the characters are very light gray on a darker gray background. But the characters requiring the function button to be pressed are a somewhat light red color and not very bold, so even lit up I find that I often must turn the device toward a light source to find, say, the tilde symbol - numbers and symbols btw are not above the same letters that they are on a PC keyboard.

Keyboard visibility is really must-have improvement for me to consider another WM device w/ a hardware keyboard.

Other than that, the slow processor speed is tough to get used to, especially coming from an Axim X50v with the 624 processor. I can overclock, but even using all that I can find on the xda-developer site I find that it often resets to factory speed after a soft reset.

Another issue is the memory - seems like a lot until you start to install apps. Device mem gets low prett quick. Also, the Mini SD cards often stop being recognized by the device. Not the creation of a Storage Card2 folder, which is easily corrected though still a PITA, but it requires a format of the card and sometimes even that does not work. Since Feb I'm on my third 1 GB Mini SD card!

Fixing all of that would be necessary to get me to shell out $300+ again.

Of course I would still have to deal with the WM5 bugs - and MS "features" that most of us would also consider bugs. Oh... and Activesync 4.X, of course!

Remember when things were kinder and simpler??

[JMac]

After having used PDAs (wm and pos) for a while now, I have to say that there is a steeper learning curve to wm.
Did you use PalmOS first?

I found that I had a steeper learning curve to Windows Mobile primarily because I was used to PalmOS, and my hand would keep on going to the parts of the screen corresponding to PalmOS features, not WM features. Once I managed to retrain that, I found WM easier. Now, I find PalmOS hard by comparison. ;)

Also, in terms of stability, PalmOS used to be stable, but recent devices seem to have stability problems. My mom has a TX that was given to her by her work, and it soft-resets automatically randomly, about once a week, sometimes more. :? Nothing special installed, either.

--janak
I used Palm - and then Handspring - for quite a while, but my first PPC was the original OS. So my learning curve took place then.

However then move even from WM2003SE to WM5 was still a whole new experience. Especially since they released and required the use of Activesync 4.x at the same time.

WM5 is by far, IMO, the buggiest WM release to date. And they aren't really acting fast to fix it. Bill never did like the PPC devices.

[cswindell]

I have the 8125 and although I love it, I'm anxiously awaiting the 8525.

The built in GPS really appeals to me. I get lost constantly and this sounds really awesome.

Mona

Where did you read that it had a built in GPS?

[Mona13]

I don't remember, but if it doesn't I'll be happy with my 8125! That's the only thing I really miss, I think...

I mainly use it for a phone via bluetooth and the internet, when I don't have access to WIFI. I still use my x50v for everything else, even WIFI. I thought I might change over to just one device, but I haven't quite made it yet.

Like several others, I've used PPC's for a very long time. I started out with PPC. It was the first iPAQ, but I don't remember the model.

One thing I don't like about WM5 is that it limits notes in the contacts more than previous verions of WM. It trunicated my notes the first time I synced! Good think I used Sprite backup faithfully. I must say I wasn't a happy camper! That's the main reason I'm using two devices.

Mona

[Janak Parekh]

Keyboard visibility is really must-have improvement for me to consider another WM device w/ a hardware keyboard.
Interesting feedback. I used a Jasjar for several months, which has a similar backlight mechanism like the 8125, and it didn't bother me. Perhaps it's because I'm a typist, and after a while I stop looking at the keyboard.

Other than that, the slow processor speed is tough to get used to, especially coming from an Axim X50v with the 624 processor.
Well, from what I've heard the 8125 benefits battery life-wise. In any case, the 8525 should be significantly faster.

Another issue is the memory - seems like a lot until you start to install apps. Device mem gets low prett quick.
Well, I've managed to work with 32MB on the 700w, so to me 64MB is a relative ton. ;)

Also, the Mini SD cards often stop being recognized by the device. Not the creation of a Storage Card2 folder, which is easily corrected though still a PITA, but it requires a format of the card and sometimes even that does not work. Since Feb I'm on my third 1 GB Mini SD card!
Are they all the same brand? Perhaps there's a compatibility issue.

Remember when things were kinder and simpler??
Not really. The iPAQ 3650 was by far the least reliable Pocket PC I owned. Dust, loose stylus, flaky sleeves on occasion, rapidly-dying batteries... compared to that, my recent Pocket PCs have been very reliable.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I used Palm - and then Handspring - for quite a while, but my first PPC was the original OS. So my learning curve took place then.
Okay, although I was replying to importluva. ;)

However then move even from WM2003SE to WM5 was still a whole new experience. Especially since they released and required the use of Activesync 4.x at the same time.
To each their own; I found the transition particularly easy. I've also been relatively okay with AS 4.x, as well.

WM5 is by far, IMO, the buggiest WM release to date. And they aren't really acting fast to fix it. Bill never did like the PPC devices.
It's not quite accurate to say they're not acting to fix it. There have been on the order of 5 or 6 service releases (AKUs), such as AKU2, AKU2.1 through AKU2.6, and now AKU3.0. Unfortunately, OEMs don't see fit to release new ROMs based on new AKUs. That's a big problem with the current model of Pocket PC OS upgrades. :?

--janak

[semkirk]

[ ....
Well, WM5 is the first Pocket PC OS that supports one-handedness, and indeed there are quirks (the most famous being mailbox switching in Messaging cannot be done without touching the screen). From what I've heard, some of the issues with one-handability will eventually be corrected. In the meantime, your finger will probably learn the current idiosyncratic behavior. No, it's not ideal, but it's a lot better than pre-WM5. ... ]

--janak

One correction - don't about other units, but I have the PPC 6700 from Verizon running WM 5.0, and while in the messaging app, I can switch between MMS, Text messaging, and Outlook email inboxes solely by using the central nub/joystick/d-pad (by moving left-to-right it moves between the different 'inboxes'); or by using the right soft-key to access the menu, I can then use the central nub/joystick/d-pad to scroll down select the 'inbox' I want. No stylus needed. Though this may be unique to the UTStarcomm implementation. So mailbox switching without a stylus is possible in WM 5.0

[amg]

don't about other units, but I have the PPC 6700 from Verizon running WM 5.0, and while in the messaging app, I can switch between MMS, Text messaging, and Outlook email inboxes solely by using the central nub/joystick/d-pad (by moving left-to-right it moves between the different 'inboxes'); or by using the right soft-key to access the menu, I can then use the central nub/joystick/d-pad to scroll down select the 'inbox' I want. No stylus needed. Though this may be unique to the UTStarcomm implementation. So mailbox switching without a stylus is possible in WM 5.0

Not unique to the 6700. The Cingular 8125 has the same feature.

[Jason Lee]

He was refering to the fact that you can't switch to the outbox or sent items folders without touching the screen not just switching between accounts.
There is no way to access the folder tree drop down at the top without touching the screen.

[JMac]

Keyboard visibility is really must-have improvement for me to consider another WM device w/ a hardware keyboard.
Interesting feedback. I used a Jasjar for several months, which has a similar backlight mechanism like the 8125, and it didn't bother me. Perhaps it's because I'm a typist, and after a while I stop looking at the keyboard.
I am definitely not a typist! Actually I have gotten very good on a full size keyboard. But when I open the notebook I have to look at the keyboard - key locations are off just enough to throw me. Same with the 8125 keyboard.

Other than that, the slow processor speed is tough to get used to, especially coming from an Axim X50v with the 624 processor.
Well, from what I've heard the 8125 benefits battery life-wise. In any case, the 8525 should be significantly faster.
Battery life was great. Lost a bit since I upgrade the ROM and started using an exchange IMAP account - with a lot of messages that can bring it down a bit! Like I said though, the 624 X50v smokes, so anything that runs under 200 seems extremely slow.

Another issue is the memory - seems like a lot until you start to install apps. Device mem gets low prett quick.
Well, I've managed to work with 32MB on the 700w, so to me 64MB is a relative ton. ;)

I probably try to install too much, but if I am going to use this as my "daily use" device, I need all the apps I have on there.

If, as someone here mentioned, I have to carry my X50v for heavier memory apps and the 8125 for phone plus more, then I'd be right back where I was when I carried the X50v for all PPC stuff, and a Nokia or SE for my phone! Two devices are still two devices!

Also, the Mini SD cards often stop being recognized by the device. Not the creation of a Storage Card2 folder, which is easily corrected though still a PITA, but it requires a format of the card and sometimes even that does not work. Since Feb I'm on my third 1 GB Mini SD card!
Are they all the same brand? Perhaps there's a compatibility issue.

Nope. Sandisk, Kingston, and Simpletech. If you look at the Wizard sites, this is a common and well known issue and seems to be related specifically to the 8125 and other Wizards in that same class: Dopod 818, Q-Tek 9100, etc.

Remember when things were kinder and simpler??
Not really. The iPAQ 3650 was by far the least reliable Pocket PC I owned. Dust, loose stylus, flaky sleeves on occasion, rapidly-dying batteries... compared to that, my recent Pocket PCs have been very reliable.

--janak

I'm talking about the earliest iPaq's - they were a mess. For stability, my Epoch was pretty great. For instability coupled with amazingly innovation - my Newton was a true experience!!

[Janak Parekh]

He was refering to the fact that you can't switch to the outbox or sent items folders without touching the screen not just switching between accounts. There is no way to access the folder tree drop down at the top without touching the screen.
Exactly, and it drives me (and a lot of other people) nuts. Account switching is not a problem; in fact, WM5 Pocket PC inherits that horizontal scrolling feature from earlier Smartphones. :)

Fortunately, AKU3 fixes this issue (http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/articles/wm-aku-en.shtml), and now it's a matter of getting a ROM update with AKU3.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

If, as someone here mentioned, I have to carry my X50v for heavier memory apps and the 8125 for phone plus more, then I'd be right back where I was when I carried the X50v for all PPC stuff, and a Nokia or SE for my phone! Two devices are still two devices!
But wait; doesn't the x50v also have 64MB RAM? What's the difference?

Nope. Sandisk, Kingston, and Simpletech. If you look at the Wizard sites, this is a common and well known issue
Ugh, I have some vague memories about this. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer. :(

For stability, my Epoch was pretty great. For instability coupled with amazingly innovation - my Newton was a true experience!!
Ah, you mean those. Well, yes, life was simpler back in those days. Oh well. At least I can do far more with my newer devices...

--janak

[JMac]

...But wait; doesn't the x50v also have 64MB RAM? What's the difference?...
--janak

Janak,

I'll have to check, but I think the 8125, being a phone device, has a number of files related to the phone service in RAM.

Also, for whatever reason, my PIM database in the root directory of the 8125 seems to be a lot larger than the individual databases stored in WM2003SE of the Axim. Anyone know about that? In WM5 on the 8125, the PIM DB is 5 MB, while on the Axim ALL databases don't add up to that.

[Janak Parekh]

I'll have to check, but I think the 8125, being a phone device, has a number of files related to the phone service in RAM.
Ah, that is true. However, the 700w does as well, as does the Jasjar. I typically found that the Jasjar's RAM configuration was enough for my needs, but of course, your mileage may vary. However, I do not believe there is any Phone Edition devices coming out in the near future with more than 64MB of RAM, for better or worse.

Also, for whatever reason, my PIM database in the root directory of the 8125 seems to be a lot larger than the individual databases stored in WM2003SE of the Axim. Anyone know about that? In WM5 on the 8125, the PIM DB is 5 MB, while on the Axim ALL databases don't add up to that.
I believe Phone Edition may be adding stuff to it. In any case, that's ROM, not RAM.

--janak

[Nurhisham Hussein]

Just a point on the RAM use between WM2003SE and WM5 - the memory footprint for WM5 (15MB+) is about 3 times larger than WM2003SE (about 5MB-6MB). That probably accounts for most of the difference.

[JMac]

Just a point on the RAM use between WM2003SE and WM5 - the memory footprint for WM5 (15MB+) is about 3 times larger than WM2003SE (about 5MB-6MB). That probably accounts for most of the difference.
I never really thought about that. The OS uses RAM? For some reason I always thought that it would only use ROM.

Learn something new every day!

Thanks Nurhisham.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

I never really thought about that. The OS uses RAM? For some reason I always thought that it would only use ROM.


There's actually an entry in the Windows Mobile Developers blog about it - the enlarged footprint even took them by surprise, it was a little bit unexpected. Basically it has to do with caching of system files (WM5), the display cache and the paging file IIANM. Since the shift to the persistent memory model, they had to cache files to prevent constant writing to ROM (which would slow things down a lot - I mean, even more than we now see with WM5).

[JMac]

Thanks for the info, Nurhisham.

BTW, your sig leads me to think you must be a fellow planner &amp; scheduler!

[Nurhisham Hussein]

BTW, your sig leads me to think you must be a fellow planner &amp; scheduler!

I'm a professional economist - prognostication is part of the job description, hence the crystal balls! :lol: