Zune Thoughts Coming Soon

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.zunethoughts.com' target='_blank'>http://www.zunethoughts.com</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/zunethoughts-logo.jpg" />

[JMac]

Interesting...

Details coming soon? Days? Or weeks?

Need any more resident ranters? 0X

[Paul Martin]

For a minute there, I thought this was an April Fools day post...a few months late. :mrgreen:

[saru83]

For a minute there, I thought this was an April Fools day post...a few months late. :mrgreen:

Same here!! is there really that much news about the ZUNE thing to have a separate Forums :?: :?:

[Typhoon]

Have you guys ever thought of a UMPC Thoughts site?

[yada88]

This is not meant to be an insult or a jab, but it is pretty obvious why there is going to be a Zune thoughts page, and that's because Microsoft had materially supported Jason's efforts when they relate to new product launches and can help build hype for those devices. Remember that Smartphone Thoughts was launched before Jason's true love, digital media thoughts, because Microsoft fit the bill on the former. I'm all for capitalism, and if Microsoft gave me money, I'd make a site too. I'm just putting it out there for people who may not have been here that long.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Two Inch View, another Microsoft sponsored project.

[WorksForTurkeys]

I'm anxiously looking forwards to the Zune release / unveiling: everytime Microsoft has released a new product, I pick up another 5 yr contract from companies looking for people capable of making the product function appropriately. ;)


I've never gotten any work as a result of any of Apple's releases.

[KTamas]

http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/zunethoughts-logo.jpg
Checking Calendar.......hmmm....no...it is not April 1st....
.
.
.
So.....whaaaaaat? 8O

[rocky_raher]

Details coming soon?

And how zune? By Zune or Zuly of next year??

:-)

[KTamas]

Details coming soon?

And how zune? By Zune or Zuly of next year??

:-)
*cries*

This hurts.

[OSUKid7]

So.....whaaaaaat? 8O

Yeah, no kidding. How is this not a joke? I mean, I'm excited to see how successful the Zune will be, but another Thoughts site? DMT is definitely the least-populated of the three sites right now, and the Zune definitely falls under digital media. So why the need for a dedicated site for just the Zune? Is Microsoft paying you or something? :?

[DaleReeck]

Yeah, a little early to announce a new site based on Zune, isn't it. Right now, its just a plan by MS. For all we know, the Zune may never see the light of day.

[ctmagnus]

So why the need for a dedicated site for just the Zune? Is Microsoft paying you or something?

That's what I thought. Seems kinda arbitrary to me. But if Microsoft can truly make Zune the iPod of the Windows Media-compatible world, it (Zune) may work out. The biggest shortcoming of the iPod video (aside from the battery drain when viewing video) is the fact that it supports only specific media formats. Zune will have to overcome that (read support the major formats that the iPod doesn't plus some/most that the iPod does), plus have the ease of use and marketing/product placement factors to succeed.

[fierywater]

There's one way and one way only that this makes sense; Jason knows more about Zune than we do. We'll see.

[Janak Parekh]

Same here!! is there really that much news about the ZUNE thing to have a separate Forums :?: :?:
Not yet. But it's worth pointing out that Pocket PC Thoughts came out before the Pocket PC platform did, so being first-to-market has its advantages. Is this too soon? We'll see. I know no more of Zune than you guys do. Maybe Jason does know something more. :)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

This is not meant to be an insult or a jab, but it is pretty obvious why there is going to be a Zune thoughts page, and that's because Microsoft had materially supported Jason's efforts when they relate to new product launches and can help build hype for those devices. Remember that Smartphone Thoughts was launched before Jason's true love, digital media thoughts, because Microsoft fit the bill on the former. I'm all for capitalism, and if Microsoft gave me money, I'd make a site too. I'm just putting it out there for people who may not have been here that long.
Well, I don't think SPT was launched before DMT because of potential MS sponsorship. Jason had been planning SPT a long time.

Would Jason seek MS sponsorship? Sure, I'm not sure who wouldn't. Is Jason releasing Zune Thoughts at the behest of Microsoft? No. Knowing Jason, he's doing this because he believes in what he sees in Zune, and therefore is making a site. Is he right? We'll see. As an iPod (and Powerbook) user, I will remain a skeptic of MS efforts -- but, in all honesty, real competition is good for the consumer. The iPod line is getting a little anemic at the moment.

--janak

[yada88]

This was what I was referencing: July 7, 2003, regarding the SPT launch:

"Lastly, for those who were hoping it was Digital Media Thoughts we were launching, sorry to have disappointed you - the timing for Smartphone Thoughts was important (and we had some financial help from Microsoft to get things started), but DMT is next on my list. Wink"

Also, I would like to say that I have more of a love for microsoft than 90% of the geeks out there. However, for whatever reason, mostly their history, i have about 6% confidence in Zune becoming a success. Just wanted to throw that out there. I think the Video iPod (as opposed to iPod video), which I think will be launched in a few weeks my apple, will be THE device going into this holiday season. I would love to be wrong.

[Majestic]

I second that...I am currently thinking of replacing my Axim51v and my Toshiba M200 Tablet with a Samsung Q1. (At least as a trial to see how it works out...)

Jason...it seems obvious to me. :)

Fred Block (Wonder if he remembers me...)


Have you guys ever thought of a UMPC Thoughts site?

[Janak Parekh]

"Lastly, for those who were hoping it was Digital Media Thoughts we were launching, sorry to have disappointed you - the timing for Smartphone Thoughts was important (and we had some financial help from Microsoft to get things started), but DMT is next on my list. Wink"
D'oh! Okay, good catch. :oops: I can say, though, that both DMT and SPT were in the planning stages for a long time, so while MS's interest may have been a factor, it wasn't the reason Jason wanted to start the site.

However, for whatever reason, mostly their history, i have about 6% confidence in Zune becoming a success. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Between you and me... I agree. :P I'm a bit more generous, though -- I'll give Zune 15%. I think the only way it ends up being a big success is if the iPod stagnates (e.g., if the touch screen video iPod or whatever the next generation is, as you allude to, doesn't come out in the next 6-12 months). Given the rumors that Apple is about to start a movie subscription offering on iTunes, that may be the nail in the Zune coffin before it begins. We'll see!

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I second that...I am currently thinking of replacing my Axim51v and my Toshiba M200 Tablet with a Samsung Q1. (At least as a trial to see how it works out...)

Jason...it seems obvious to me. :)
I think Jason has thought about it. Hopefully he'll be able to stop by this thread and talk about the possibility of a UMPC Thoughts site in the future...

--janak

[jcubes]

There's one way and one way only that this makes sense; Jason knows more about Zune than we do. We'll see.

Ah knowledge is power... now what tid-bits will he care to share with us mere mortals eh? :-)

[Pixelnose]

I don't know what the Zunethougths guys know or don't know about the Zune, but I think the site will hold more water if someone there actually gave a crap about audio. Has any Zunethoughts person (can't just be Jason, doesn't he have a writing staff?) heard the Zune? It's not just about looks or features, but actual audio quality also matters. Without having the experience or ears to compare gear, the thoughts at Zunethoughts will hold less than zero validity.

[Phoenix]

I have to allow room to realize that my instincts could be completely off in regard to Zune due to so much lack of info, but there seems to be a different energy with this project.

I think MS is going for the jugular on this one.

Maybe it'll fizzle, but my hunch says otherwise. Time will tell...

[Jason Dunn]

Reading this thread has been quite amusing - I'm amazed at some of the reactions here, and some of the distorted thinking and opinions. Does no one remember the history of the Pocket PC and the market share it had in October of 2000 when I launched Pocket PC Thoughts?

Since this will be the first new Thoughts Media site launched in three years, I'm tremendously excited about it. I will respond to the posts - even the needlessly harsh ones :roll: - later today or tomorrow.

[Muntasser]

why not just feature the Zune as a subsection in DMT rather than creating an entire site for it?

Just my 2 cents. Of course if Microsoft sponsorship has anything to do with it as some others have been suggesting, then good times for all, and hopefully a few Zune giveaways to boot.

[whydidnt]

I posted on DMT about the Zune, and could be off base, but I think Jason might either know or think the same:

Many of you are looking at Zune as a direct competitor to the iPod, but I think it's really more of a competitor for the MySpace crowd. If you read the viral marketing that's been put out, it has really been focused on the sharing aspect of the device and there has been a lot of talk about independent music, not so much about commercial. I'm guessing MS is trying to deliver a YouTube for music and video to go, not directly compete with the iPod - though these two are mutually exclusive.

If my thoughts are correct and Zune really is a whole new experience, why not have a dedicated site? When the Zune is actually released MS will be creating a lot of buzz, you might as well be one of the few with a site that benefits from that buzz.

[Ed Hansberry]

Same here!! is there really that much news about the ZUNE thing to have a separate Forums :?: :?:
Not yet. But it's worth pointing out that Pocket PC Thoughts came out before the Pocket PC platform did…
you sure about that? the PPC launched April 2000. don't think PPCT was out then.

[pocketdoc]

Jason, I know you are shaking your head right now. It is amazing how many experts and opinions there are out there. Everyone is free to express themselves, I suppose.

I am excited about MS's Zune and hope it is successful. Apple needs a good competitor.

I am with you, Jason.

[Jason Dunn]

Details coming soon? Days? Or weeks?

We're working on the template now, if all goes well, one week, maybe two if we get bogged down.

Need any more resident ranters? 0X

Always! When the site launches join in the fray and I'll be watching for you. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Have you guys ever thought of a UMPC Thoughts site?

Yes, actually I did - I registered UMPCthoughts.com the same day I heard about the UMPC. At the time, however, our new back-end CMS wasn't finished enough to launch a new site with. And launching a new site with the old phpBB system wasn't an option I wanted to explore. The other big factor is staffing - I don't own a UMPC, and don't plan on buying a first-generation unit. That means I'd need an Executive Editor to helm the site - and that represents a huge shift in my business, launching a site with someone other than me at the helm (it's something I am planning on making happen though). Lastly, there's the timing of not being first - it's hard to establish an online community when others launch forums before you. Those factors added up to the timing just not being right for it.

Zune Thoughts will be launched using our new CMS, and will serve as a good testing ground for future Thoughts Media sites (and the eventual migration of our current sites). I can't make any promises, but I can tell you with absolute certainty it will not be another three years before you see the next site beyond Zune Thoughts. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Speculation is fun, but you seem very certain about things that you're flat-out wrong about.

This is not meant to be an insult or a jab, but it is pretty obvious why there is going to be a Zune thoughts page, and that's because Microsoft had materially supported Jason's efforts when they relate to new product launches and can help build hype for those devices.

I am receiving absolutely ZERO funding from Microsoft for launching Zune Thoughts. I've always been up-front about sponsorships in the past, and this time is no different.

Remember that Smartphone Thoughts was launched before Jason's true love, digital media thoughts, because Microsoft fit the bill on the former.

That's partially correct. Smartphone Thoughts was in the planning phases before Digital Media Thoughts, but I was unsure about the viability of launching it before the product was widely available in North America. I knew I'd have ZERO advertisers for it, so the Microsoft sponsorship money was essentially to underwrite the site for the first while so I didn't have to care about not having paying ads. This was before AdSense or many of the ad networks that now make launching a site such as that possible.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Two Inch View, another Microsoft sponsored project.

What bearing does that have on this conversation It's a Microsoft owned and sponsored site, and not a part of Thoughts Media Inc. in any way.

[Jason Dunn]

I don't know if this was your intention, but you sure come across as angry and rude. :?

I don't know what the Zunethougths guys know or don't know about the Zune, but I think the site will hold more water if someone there actually gave a crap about audio.

I don't consider myself an audiophile (the kind of person who buys $5000 pre-amps and uses studio reference monitors instead of Logitech/Klipsch computer speakers), but I do consider myself serious about audio quality and as a musician, I feel I have a discerning ear. Audio quality in a portable audio player is certainly important to me, but to be honest, it's been a few years since I've heard hardware that's been really bad - both my Zen Micro and Zen Vision:M pump out audio that sounds great to my ears (with Shure E2C headphones).

However, if you're expecting Zune Thoughts to be an audiophile site such as eCoustics.com, you'll be disappointed. The Zune is intended to be a mass-market entertainment player, and Zune Thoughts will cater to that type of audience. To the mass market, audio quality is important, but if it sounds the same as their iPod, that will be good enough for them.

Has any Zunethoughts person (can't just be Jason, doesn't he have a writing staff?) heard the Zune?

I haven't heard, or even seen, any Zune hardware yet. When I launched the Velo FAQ (http://www.jasondunn.com/archive/velo/index2.htm) years ago, I did it before I even owned the device - enthusiasm for new hardware doesn't always follow rational boundaries. ;-)

Without having the experience or ears to compare gear, the thoughts at Zunethoughts will hold less than zero validity.

All I'll say in response to that incredibly rude comment is that I would request you wait for me to launch the site before you tell me it has no validity, ok? :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

why not just feature the Zune as a subsection in DMT rather than creating an entire site for it?

A great question, but one that I will hold off on answering until I launch the site - because it's something I need to address in my opening post for the site. Suffice it to say I've learned from experience when the creating sub-forums just won't suffice.

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, I know you are shaking your head right now. It is amazing how many experts and opinions there are out there. Everyone is free to express themselves, I suppose.

Thanks for your support, and yes, I'm utterly blown away by some of the responses in this thread. 8O Based on some of these posts, you'd think I was telling people that Pocket PC Thoughts was going away, Zune Thoughts was replacing it, and I was charging $2 to load the index page. ;-)

I'm not quite sure where this expression of harsh scepticism comes from. I'm scared what will happen when I officially launch my personal blog...I can only imagine how upset that will make people! :lol:

Anyway, I guess I should have expected this to some degree - I remember when I launched Smartphone Thoughts some people were quite upset at having to read another site, not really grasping that they were under no obligation to do so. In a way, I guess I should feel honoured that people feel so emotionally invested in which Web sites I launch - I suppose loud opposition is better than bored indifference. ;-)

[OSUKid7]

I'm not quite sure where this expression of harsh scepticism comes from. I'm scared what will happen when I officially launch my personal blog...I can only imagine how upset that will make people! :lol:

Well, I think we were (I, at least was) very surprised to see a new site about such a specific yet still-unreleased product. Pocket PCs and Smartphones have quite a few manufactures, and digital media in itself is a huge area. Sure, it's good to be early if the Zune actually catches on and is a real iPod competitor, but if not, you may find yourself with a site with very little news.

Like you said, I think all it is right now is skepticism. I really do look forward to seeing how the Zune and Zune Thoughts turn out. Sorry if my remarks seemed otherwise. Good luck with Zune Thoughts and keep us informed about new endeavors. :)

[Macguy59]

did it before I even owned the device - enthusiasm for new hardware doesn't always follow rational boundaries. ;-)



Ah finally an admission of sorts except you left off M$ in front of hardware :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

Ah finally an admission of sorts except you left off M$ in front of hardware :lol:
1) the velo wasn't MS hardware.
2) the use of M$ rather than MS is an admission of another sort. :roll:

[Macguy59]

Ah finally an admission of sorts except you left off M$ in front of hardware :lol:
1) the velo wasn't MS hardware.
2) the use of M$ rather than MS is an admission of another sort. :roll:

M$ as in deep pockets. Try not to give yourself a headache with the eye rolling.

[pocketdoc]

I have been a long time reader and fan and have noticed that responders have become more and more angry and rude. I don't get it.

I can't decide if I should respond to the inflammatory remarks or just ignore them... I guess I will leave that to the PPCT staff.

I am looking forward to seeing the new site.

[Janak Parekh]

Not yet. But it's worth pointing out that Pocket PC Thoughts came out before the Pocket PC platform did…
you sure about that? the PPC launched April 2000. don't think PPCT was out then.
You know, you're right. PPCT launched on October 12, 2000. Somehow I had the dates mixed up in my head. :? Or maybe I was referring to one of Jason's early FAQs. Still, it was one of the earliest.

--janak

[Pixelnose]

I apologize if some of the hard realities of the portable audio world are tough to swallow, but there are folks out there with a world of experience with all sorts of audio gear, and no Shure e2's, while a step on the ladder, simply don't count for much. What people will want to know is how the Zune compares quality wise with the various DAPs out there today. Look at sites like dapreview or head-fi. People go to these sites because they're not fanboy sites.

But at this point, if you don't have the experience with audio setups, or know really how to review audio products, then you're going to be going head-on with ilounge. At this point, even though the audio reviews don't even hold a candle to an average member review at head-fi, they're going to be better at it simply because they have more experience with more stuff.

If you think it's rude that I point out a real problem with the validity of the site, it really doesn't make it less true. People who don't care about quality will still question what makes the Zune better, and people who do care will laugh it off as a fanboy site. These are the realities of the challenges here.

Or I could just lie about it.

[Janak Parekh]

But at this point, if you don't have the experience with audio setups, or know really how to review audio products, then you're going to be going head-on with ilounge.
... what's wrong with going head-on with iLounge? Audio quality is only one of many aspects of what makes a good DAP. To say that all sites that don't do audio tests are somehow "invalid" rings very, very false to me. If that's the case, you should discount 99% of technology sites out there. After all, PPCT doesn't do lab-quality color tests on Pocket PC screens. I would hardly call us a fanboy site as a result.

--janak

[stuxstu]

I for one am interested in "Zune Thoughts". Since I am in the market for a new MP3 player, but I don't want an IPod. Never liked Apple and most likely never will. So I hope MS comes up with a great player with great ideas and support behind it.

As for the previous posters disagreements, yes audio quality is important, but at the 128k sampling rates for mp3s audio quality is poor anyway. I want some one to come out with a 320k service. Then we can discuss audio quality as audiophiles.

Ease of use should be paramount on MS list. If it is not easy to use, like an IPod then MS will not win the game.

Just my thoughts.... Good luck with the new site.

Stu

[aroma]

Or I could just lie about it.

Or you could just not visit the site if you don't like it.
Nobody is forcing you to look at the site. If Jason wants to start an enthusiast site about something he is well, excited about, why not? Who cares how much he knows about the product. It's not like he taking money out of your pocket to do it.

Jason: I hearby forbid you to open up any sites about something you're passionate about unless you know 100% of the technical details first!

[Pixelnose]

Oh well, audio quality is the single most important feature, so if you don't believe that, it's your own ears that are missing out, and if we as consumers don't force companies to keep churning out quality products, then really, what's the point? ;)

I don't get the aggro here at pointing out some very real problems. It doesn't make them go away. If the ability to do a good audio review is ignored, then you can't hope to be taken seriously. Let's put it this way, iLounge isn't taken seriously by most of the audio community, and it has way way way more experience at doing audio reviews than Jason.

I point it out because thoughtsmedia has yet to do a real fanboy site, but if these issues are ignored, then they're about to. I'm trying to give criticism that will help here. If audio quality isn't important here, then the purpose of the site has just been stated.

[stuxstu]

Oh well, audio quality is the single most important feature, so if you don't believe that, it's your own ears that are missing out, and if we as consumers don't force companies to keep churning out quality products, then really, what's the point? ;)

Keep it straight; in your opinion "audio quality" is the single most important issue. As a musician and amateur recording engineer, I believe audio quality to be a high priority. It is why I spent so much money on my hobby. Yet, the vast majority of the population couldn't tell you the difference between radio and CD quality. So remember, your perception is not always the majority view. The majority of the world wants something easy to use. Not high quality audio.


Just my opinion and good luck Jason.

Stu


I am sure Jason, as a musician, will look at audio quality among many other criteria, in his reviews.

[Jason Dunn]

I apologize if some of the hard realities of the portable audio world are tough to swallow...

If I thought your apology was sincere, I'd accept it. You want to talk hard realities? Here's one for you:

Most people in the world don't care about audio quality beyond a certain point.

Need proof? How about the 1+ billion iTunes tracks sold at a 128 kbps bit rate? How about the billions and billions of audio files traded over the past decade on P2P networks, most of them being nasty 128 kbps or worse MP3 encodes, complete with clicks, pops, and other encoding artifacts? The numbers don't lie: if the mass market cared about audio quality as much as you do, the above numbers would be much, much lower. The truth is that most people are listening to digital audio files on $5 headphones while sitting on a noisy subway or bus and audio quality just isn't as important to them as good battery life, an easy to use player, etc.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being an audiophile (more power to you!), and there are some great audiophile communities out there that will no doubt get a Zune player and perform some really hardcore audio tests on it. Great! Zune Thoughts will link to those reviews. But I have no illusions that Zune Thoughts will ever do those type of audiophile-level reviews. That's just not what I (we) do at Thoughts Media, nor have I ever pretended to.

If you think that more than 0.1% of the mass market is like you, you're seriously delusional. That's a hard reality.

[Jason Dunn]

If the ability to do a good audio review is ignored, then you can't hope to be taken seriously. Let's put it this way, iLounge isn't taken seriously by most of the audio community, and it has way way way more experience at doing audio reviews than Jason.

If I'm not taken seriously by the audiophile community, you know what? I'm 100% ok with that. Know why? Because I'm not an audiophile! I wouldn't expect them to take me seriously unless I had the gear, the knowledge, and the skill to back up my claims. If Zune Thoughts can be half as successful as iLounge I'll be thrilled - and I'm willing to bet that iLounge has 500% more traffic than any given audiophile site. iLounge caters to the mass market, audiophiles cater to audiophiles. Do the math.

[foldedspace]

Well, judging by the response to this thread, I'm guessing there must be a lot of things to talk about. :lol:

[Sheynk]

Oh well, audio quality is the single most important feature, so if you don't believe that, it's your own ears that are missing out, and if we as consumers don't force companies to keep churning out quality products, then really, what's the point? ;)

I don't get the aggro here at pointing out some very real problems. It doesn't make them go away. If the ability to do a good audio review is ignored, then you can't hope to be taken seriously. Let's put it this way, iLounge isn't taken seriously by most of the audio community, and it has way way way more experience at doing audio reviews than Jason.

I point it out because thoughtsmedia has yet to do a real fanboy site, but if these issues are ignored, then they're about to. I'm trying to give criticism that will help here. If audio quality isn't important here, then the purpose of the site has just been stated.


what are you smoking? :|

I am going to post repeat from DMT but its needed

"Wow

I just love it that some of you guys are jumping all over Jason from starting yet another Thoughts Media website that will provide you with reliable information, great reviews, and a great community to share your passion for technology..... god forbid he ever do such a thing. Rolling Eyes

Considering that Zune is being developed by the xbox360 team I am sure it will be a great product. Sure Microsoft might "suck" Rolling Eyes but when they enter a market they do so prepared because they are the only people with the resources to do so. "



Seriously man. I am an audiophile. I love head-fi just like any other guy with an E500 on order from shure.....delayed for a few months...but now shipping :) .. but you are looking at it all wrong

Don't fret though! I will explain!

I don't think YOU understand the point of Thoughts Media. These are community websites designed around discussion of technology. Sure...that might sound just like any other tech site, but there is a difference. Thoughts Media is, just like Jason's book a little while ago, meant to be "compatible" with your average technology user. This user has a wifi network at home... that his neighbor's kid set up. He has the latest phone but probably does not use the WAP browser. He has that new iPod w/o realizing that a creative or archos product is superior in every way. This is a person who leads a life that is augmented by technology as opposed to a life of worshiping a piece of plastic.

Apple targeted these "bad people" who dont care about sound quality or flexibility or just about anything....but they did fine.

Microsoft is using its weight to enter the market of mass media. And a website that describes such a product is the perfect competitor to ilounge.



oh and finally...lets be honest. Who the **** (except for members of headfi) care about depth, soundstage, and about 1 million other made up sound terms used in reviews there. No one really understands them! I love my grados and could write a great review about them...and to a crazy audiophile user it will sound like rubbish...but hopefully it will convince Mr. Joe Accountant to spend his hard earned dollars on a $700 headphone made mostly of wood.

Read some reviews on DMT or Pocket PC Thoughts. You get the point of the program/device throughout the review. It is an honest piecce of writing by USERS of technology.

Look at it this way. I would rather hear a windows vista review from you average college student who uses it for office, games, music, photo, movies (aka porn), and web surfing than from a programmer who will tell me crazy benchmarks and funny looking numbers.

I want to hear "hey that thing works great with this and that" and not "it took .068 of a second on my pentium d overclocked to 4ghz to compute this algorith and that is a .02 improvement over XP"


I hope you see the difference here.

[Marcel_Proust]

If the ability to do a good audio review is ignored, then you can't hope to be taken seriously. Let's put it this way, iLounge isn't taken seriously by most of the audio community, and it has way way way more experience at doing audio reviews than Jason.

If I'm not taken seriously by the audiophile community, you know what? I'm 100% ok with that. Know why? Because I'm not an audiophile! I wouldn't expect them to take me seriously unless I had the gear, the knowledge, and the skill to back up my claims. If Zune Thoughts can be half as successful as iLounge I'll be thrilled - and I'm willing to bet that iLounge has 500% more traffic than any given audiophile site. iLounge caters to the mass market, audiophiles cater to audiophiles. Do the math.

The audiophile comments are irrelevant, because like you said, most people don't care. I think this is a shame though. I love my creative zen vision:m because of it's audio quality, which is better than the ipod. But in any case, 'audiophile' and 'portable audio' are oxymorons. it's a different category.

One worry I have about Zune, is that I am not sure about the MS strategy. Apparently, this player is not part of the windows media platform that goes along with Urge, Rhapsody, Napster, Yahoo Music etc, which I thought were excellent alternatives to iTunes, but part of MS's own new store and separate drm.
Is this a death sentence for those stores? They weren't doing too well, but were coming up with an interesting an innovative strategy.
And creative and others have some very nice papers.
All this is in the speculative and rumor stage.

[Jason Dunn]

One worry I have about Zune, is that I am not sure about the MS strategy. Apparently, this player is not part of the windows media platform that goes along with Urge, Rhapsody, Napster, Yahoo Music etc, which I thought were excellent alternatives to iTunes, but part of MS's own new store and separate drm.

And that's part of what makes this whole Zune thing so damn interesting - the fact that the Zune team is going their own way, and doing their own thing, rather than tying into music stores run by other companies - as you noted, stores that haven't done all that well against iTunes. One of the reasons I'm launching Zune Thoughts is because of the sheer audacity of the Zune team to try something this risky...it's very un-Microsoft, and that impresses the hell out of me. ;-)

[Pixelnose]

If you're a head-fier then you should know yourself the dangers of proclaiming how great something is without having heard it. If you think I roasted the site, see what happens in the portable forum if there are zero writers who know how to write about audio. ;)

I don't know why everyone gets so in an uproar when someone posts what will be a legitmate challenge the new site will face. I understand what a thoughtsmedia site is, and if the reviewers don't have much experience with different types of protable gear, and/or know how to put it into words people can read and understand (the hardest part of an audio review), it won't really have much meaning.

And I bring that up because that would be the first thoughts site to not have much meaning.

My advice, in case anyone understands where I'm coming from, is to listen to as many headphones, IEMs (custom if you can, but universal fit a must), amps, cables, as you can. Hear what you like, and what you don't like. Compare daps. Does line out or optical matter to your ears?

What about encoding methods? There's a whole can of worms right there.

Secondly, read audio reviews. Read good ones, read bad ones. Try to take an audio setup you know very well, listen to a song you know very well, and put into words what that sounds like.

Will it matter to the average consumer? No, it won't. But it gives the writer experience in the field in which they are writing, and it gives the opinions more validity if you know what you're talking about. The site doesn't have to be a portable version of Moon Audio, but it the writers need the audio experience to make it something more than a fanboy site.

That's pretty much all that can be said. The more you know, the more valid the site will be. I know I'm one of the few that didn't give a yes-man opinion, but what I said is meant to be taken constructively. Then again, if the site goes in the "gee whiz, listen to teh basses!" direction, then people will have to go elsewhere to answer the question why should they switch from an ipod?

***re-quote of entire message deleted by mod JD***

[Damion Chaplin]

Holy overreaction, Batman! 8O Isn't this a PocketPC enthusiast site? I mean, I would have expected this sort of response over at DMT [where are you all?], but at PPCT? Wow.

Sound quality is very important, but only to a point. As was mentioned previously, DAPs aren't made for audiophiles. Even the highest-end PMPs don't put out audiophile-quality music unless they support lossless CODECs, which very few do. Even with the ones that do, 99.9% of the time, you'll have to output using the headphone jack, which will introduce enough line noise to cancel out the advantages of using lossless.

So really, why are you here flaming a device (and a site) you have never used and probably won't use in the future?

I'm looking forward to seeing what Zune and ZuneThoughts will bring to the playground. Now play nice! :wink:

[Sheynk]

My advice, in case anyone understands where I'm coming from, is to listen to as many headphones, IEMs (custom if you can, but universal fit a must), amps, cables, as you can. Hear what you like, and what you don't like. Compare daps. Does line out or optical matter to your ears?



^ this is why people are in "an uproar"


because 99% who will buy the zune (or the iPod) do not know that headphone amps exist. They think the price difference in cables has to do with length. They do not know what IEM stands for...much less can they name at least one IEM manufacturer.

Dont get me wrong. I (me...gary...just speaking for me) love sound quality. I encode lossless and like to have the latest in audio equipment. I am in a constant search for a better listen then last time.

But mentioning cables and amps on a mass media forum is like walking into an Apple store and proving to them that the iPod sucks and that a discontinued Karma is a much much better player.

Think of headfi as that cool guy who digs around in his engine compartment and scouffs at people who cant change their own oil. His car is a tuned performance machine.... but he can argue till he is blue in the face if he is yelling at guy who leases a bimmer.

Look. All of you points are true and valid....just not here...and not in ilounge. I understand you.... but you are being that "guy: who is trying to tell people to change their own oil....while they could care less

Is that a better explanation?

[Janak Parekh]

Sound quality is very important, but only to a point. As was mentioned previously, DAPs aren't made for audiophiles. Even the highest-end PMPs don't put out audiophile-quality music unless they support lossless CODECs, which very few do. Even with the ones that do, 99.9% of the time, you'll have to output using the headphone jack, which will introduce enough line noise to cancel out the advantages of using lossless.
I think you make some excellent points here. Let me also add that it depends on what you're using it for. I use DAPs not as my daily driver for fine music listening, but on-the-go. Given that I'm traveling through New York City on the subway, etc. -- or using it in the gym -- a comparison on that fine level of audio comparison is utterly useless for me. It's also worth pointing out I have more sensitive ears than 90% of the population -- I can't stand most 128kbps-encoded music -- yet give me a halfway decent pair of in-ears and a halfway decent DAC in my DAP and I'm happy.

If the Zune has significant audio problems, then sure, I'd want to know about it. However, I seriously disagree with Pixelnose, who says that the site will become "a fanboy site" if you don't have precise audio engineering reviews on it. Once again, I point out: we don't review PPCT screens using fine color measuring techniques and the like. Therefore, we must be Pocket PC fanboys, because we obviously can't precisely compare the photo accuracy of Pocket PCs.*

Let me add, by the way, that I'm a regular iLounge reader (subscribed via RSS), and that I find their reviews thorough and informative. Does that make me banned from the serious-audiophile world? Well then, let it be so. ;)

--janak

* Actually, In a sense, we are Pocket PC fanboys. That is the whole point of the site, isn't it? I'm not going to say "0mg l33t P0ck3t PC!?!?!?" or anything, but if anyone comes here with the impression that we're going to be strictly neutral between Palm and WM, they'll be disappointed.

[Phillip Dyson]

* Actually, In a sense, we are Pocket PC fanboys. That is the whole point of the site, isn't it? I'm not going to say "0mg l33t P0ck3t PC!?!?!?" or anything, but if anyone comes here with the impression that we're going to be strictly neutral between Palm and WM, they'll be disappointed.

Exactly right! This is an Enthusiast community. And we're enthusiastic about PocketPCs, Smartphones, and Digital Media. In a short while, we have a community for those who are Enthusiastic about the Zune.

En-zune-thiasts :lol:

So every community is absolutely biased in their own direction. What will make Zunethoughts successful is the fact that its community will be excited about the product.

[BugDude10]

Lemme into this moster post-fest! :twisted:

It seems to me that some folks here are taking all of this waaaay too seriously. Jason seems to love toys-with-lights, and he expects that the Zune will have lights. Not only that, but he's built a pretty impressive (to those of us who visit regularly) e-media conglomerate here, what with all the Thoughts sites. And, perhaps, he's seen the ridiculous success of the iPoop and all things "i", and decided to jump onto this train before it leaves the station. So what's the big deal?

The PPCT site is great because it is, simultaneously, sophisticated enough for us power-users and basic enough for all you noobs. Likewise, DMT covers the gamut of visitor-sophistication-levels as well. I expect that ZT will most likely do the same. (And, being one of the first on the e-block, it may end up the site for en-Zune-thiasts (I like it, Phillip!) old and new.) I won't expect it to compete with Stereophile for the sophistication of its analyses, but I will expect it to be well-designed, well-thought-out, and well-written (and I expect it to link to Stereophile when appropriate).

And, if nothing else, it's Jason's time &amp; energy. If you don't end up with a Zune, and you don't find anything else interesting on the site, you won't visit it. (I don't have a Smartphone, and I'm not planning on getting one in the near future, so I rarely-if-ever visit SPT. No offense to Jason, and no complaints either.)

My first thought, too, was "why not make it a forum on DMT?" But a mere forum for the iPoop would most likely not get as much attention as www.iPoop.com. So whether I visit ZT or not, I hope Jason makes a killing on the site (if for no other reason than he'll give away lots of cool toys-with-lights on PPCT and DMT!!).

Just my $0.02.

[Phillip Dyson]

Oh well, audio quality is the single most important feature, so if you don't believe that, it's your own ears that are missing out, and if we as consumers don't force companies to keep churning out quality products, then really, what's the point? ;)



I'm not an audiophile, but I agree audio quality is important. But if I had to pick a number 1 it would be the Don't Be a Hassle quality. That and the features I want (or didn't know I wanted).

On another note...
I don't want another DAP from Microsoft. I want something that changes the game. Like Windows Mobile did to the PDA world.

Microsoft if you're listening, put the DAP, and the accessory farm back in the closet. If thats what you were thinking. Lets go with a real platform. Which is what you do best.

[Janak Parekh]

Microsoft if you're listening, put the DAP, and the accessory farm back in the closet. If thats what you were thinking. Lets go with a real platform. Which is what you do best.
Well, considering that the Zune is apparently being designed by the Xbox team, how do you not know it's more than just a DAP? I'd be very surprised if there isn't something "extra". Microsoft must know very well by now that "me-too" clones are going to lose against the iPod.

I wonder if Jason knows more... I don't, but I'm curious to find out! ;)

--janak

[Darius Wey]

Well, considering that the Zune is apparently being designed by the Xbox team, how do you not know it's more than just a DAP? I'd be very surprised if there isn't something "extra". Microsoft must know very well by now that "me-too" clones are going to lose against the iPod.

Quoting a marketing manager from Xbox Europe: "It is a combination of hardware and software. As for roll out and compatibility you're going to have to watch this space -- when we launch there will be a lot of noise around it. It's about Microsoft bringing together communities on devices like Xbox, Zune and PC."

Sounds more than just a DAP to me. :)

[szamot]

if Zune takes off as well as Smart Display, Tablet PC and Urge then perhaps zuneafterthoughts.com will be a more likely alternative..... :devilboy:

[Jason Dunn]

For those that are interested in some Zune news before I launch the site, I've updated the home page with a great quote (http://www.zunethoughts.com) from Robbie Bach about the device and what Microsoft's goal is with it.

[Craig Horlacher]

If you think it's rude that I point out a real problem with the validity of the site, it really doesn't make it less true. People who don't care about quality will still question what makes the Zune better, and people who do care will laugh it off as a fanboy site. These are the realities of the challenges here.

Or I could just lie about it.

I'm not sure you get the point of Jason's idea. I have to side with him and say my I-HP 140 still sounds excellent to my ears and the sound quality I've heard from current ipods and creative players has also been, to me, excellent. I don't care what the signal to noise ratio is or anything else about the physics of the wave that the device is capable of producing. I want to know if the Zune will have as many features as my old iriver (apple has never come close). I want to know how it interacts with my computer. I also would like to know if the screen is good in the sunlight. I think Jason's site will be the perfect source for all the information that I care about. With as little functionality as the ipod has and as much hype and news have been generated around it I have no doubt that there will be more than enough content related to the Zune to keep the site interesting.

[Steve Jordan]

Y'know, I can understand questions about the new site (I had a few, before reading these seven pages), but I really don't get the amount of stink here over a product that ain't out yet, fer chrissakes!

I mean, if you're interested in one, fine. If you're not, fine. If you're not, but maybe someday you change your mind and want to know more (which could be my track), fine. Either way, calm down and at least wait to see if the product performs or blows up out of the box.

Speaking as someone who likes my Toshiba PPC the way it is, and uses an iAudio MP3 player when riding my motorcycle or the subway to work, I have no interest in the device at the moment. But that doesn't mean I won't later, if my needs change, and if I manage to learn something about the device from a site like ZuneThoughts. Because, let's face it: If I have to get my information from Microsoft (biased), or from my local CompUSA (bored overworked geek-clerks), I won't be learning much, and I certainly won't be buying one.

Go for it, Jason. Let it sink or float on its own.

[xycury]

just wow....

reading 7 pages ....


Jason, and the team, I wish you the best of luck and I am excited to see this site take off.

I'll definately be signed up and will be looking forward to reviews and topics and articles.

I just hope everyone else would realize that the product isn't out yet, and that all this critism isn't worth the effort and simply points out a lack of respect to Jason and Digital Thoughts team.

Come on... we're already having debates/arguments over something that's just been talked about so far. Does that deserve a roll? :roll: