Countdown At the Crossroads of CDMA and GSM [Archive]

Raphael Salgado

03-10-2006, 10:00 PM

Those who know me will say I have a passion for the latest gadgets, while others dare call it an addiction. Either way, I've come to grips with reality that it's a downright expensive hobby. Like my brother-in-law whose labor of love is tweaking an old Mazda RX-7 with parts on eBay, or my uncle who collects exotic fish in a humongous aquarium in his den, my endeavours have been in obtaining the best Pocket PC devices over the last few years. But, there comes a time when you ask yourself if you're doing anything productive with that device, or are you just happy with its features until the "honeymoon period" is over? I've been a Cingular customer since December 2004, and have popped my SIM card in nearly a dozen Windows Mobile Pocket PCs and Smartphones I purchased, then eBaying or selling off the device towards the purchase of the next every few months. After all the devices I went through, I finally realized that it was time to settle down with these basic necessities: a fast, compact device with fast Internet access and an integrated keyboard. At the time of my revelation, I happened to have stumbled into a Verizon Wireless store in my local mall. There, similar to the HTC Wizard, the HTC Apache (in the form of the Verizon XV6700) sat on its display stand. I powered it up and sampled their internet connection on their EV-DO network. Needless to say, I was awestruck with the performance of the device and their network; yet, at the same time, I felt jaded after all the GSM devices I went through, even those with EDGE capability.<!> So, here I stand at the crossroads of CDMA and GSM. It has been discussed <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14748&highlight=gsm+cdma">here</a> nearly a year and a half ago, and now, still with so many uncertainties (such as the unknown timeframe of Cingular's 1900MHz UMTS/HSDPA nationwide rollout, possible repeat hangups of such a rollout - now that Cingular will become AT&T Wireless again, and upcoming devices such as the HTC Hermes with conflicting rumors to have/not have US-friendly UMTS/HSDPA support), one thing is certain: I'm on a 15-day countdown to a two-year contract with what feels like an awesome device on an incredible network. Yes, we all know that Verizon Wireless has been depicted as "The Empire," locking down their devices and their network, and have been known to move at a slower pace to accept new phones. I've made so many moves in the last 14 months, should I break my Cingular contract and make this my last jump? Or, should I hold out for the US' uncertain times trying to get 3G in the GSM domain? Will any of these upcoming 3G GSM devices work to their fullest capability in the US? If there was a time I needed your thoughts most, now is the time. :|

Damion Chaplin

03-10-2006, 10:13 PM

...and have popped my SIM card in nearly a dozen Windows Mobile Pocket PCs and Smartphones I purchased, then eBaying or selling off the device towards the purchase of the next every few months.

This is the primary reason I've stayed with Cingular. The ability to change my phone at a moments' whim. I like that Cingular's in the dark about which device I'm currently carrying. In addition, I've been a customer since 1999 when Cingular bought PacBell Wireless. This means everytime Cingular makes me mad, I call them and remind them of how long I've been a customer and that lately I've been looking at T-Mobile's plans and then I watch them scurry!

So basically, I'm willing to wait until Cingular's got true 3G in the pipe so I can continue to take advantage of their willingness to keep me as a customer...

racerx

03-10-2006, 10:29 PM

You actually hit on the number one reason I won't buy anything from Verizon anytime soon. The fact that they lock down their devices. I acknowledge that Cingular is slower than Verizon. But I can do ANYTHING I want with a Cingular device. ANYTHING. Wanna transfer files via bluetooth? - No problem. Wanna use it as a modem (cabled or wireless) to my laptop or Pocket PC? No problem. And of course, the freedom of the SIM. To me, that is what a mobile device should be and until Verizon "GETS IT", I won't go with them. Now Sprint, that's another story. If they had better coverage, I'd be there. But not right now. Cingular is the only game in town that gives me what I want. And I couldn't care less that they're going to be called AT&T again. I've had the same great plan for 2.5 years and I expect to have it for another few. Coverage and features - that's what does it for me...

Janak Parekh

03-10-2006, 10:36 PM

So, I agree in principle with the GSM supporters, but I have a Treo 700w, with EVDO... and I'm hooked. Great coverage everywhere I go, and web browsing is finally useable on a Pocket PC. I never realized what I missed beforehand, be it GPRS/EDGE or 1xRTT, but EVDO is so fast, I actually pull out the 700w in casual conversation to look up things, and have the answer in 2-3 seconds. Plus, Verizon simply has the best coverage, bar none, for my daily routine.

That, for me, is why I'm staying with Verizon, despite all of the other limitations. Well, that and the fact I really like the 700w. :) The question boils down to whether the GSM providers have enough coverage and if you can wait for a 1900MHz UMTS Pocket PC and corresponding UMTS service.

--janak

Raphael Salgado

03-10-2006, 10:48 PM

That's just it. We've all waited for things before, but there are too many factors and too many unknowns to make a fair judgment. If Cingular came out and said "we'll have national HSDPA in 6 months" and HTC said "out UMTS/HSDPA chips are dual-band capable for US compatibility," then the decision becomes more clear.

I suppose when you have to settle for something, it has to be tangible, real, and in front of you. After all, that's what settling is about, no? Verizon has EV-DO and it rocks. The HTC Apache was the device that the HTC Wizard should have been. Even the Palm Treo 700w is a fantastic device (which I'm in a little debate over, but the Wi-Fi and full 320x240 screen really are the pluses I need), so what is in front of me and working is Verizon Wireless.

I guess their commercials were right. A little brainwashy, but true - "they have the most reliable network, it just works, etc. etc."

MarcTGFG

03-10-2006, 10:52 PM

I would have bought the 6700 on its first day of availability if I lived in the US. Terrific device, best keyboard ever, superb speed. The Hermes is announced for early summer which many translate into June. But it was said to be available in May during 3GSM. I think its more realistic to expect it in July earliest. The same happened with the MDA Vario here in Germany.

And then again: You wont have a guarantee, that the Hermes is actually compatible with WCDMA 1900.

No, I would clearly opt for the 6700!

emooney

03-10-2006, 11:29 PM

I was reading your article and understand exactly what you were talking about. Is the time really upon us? Where phones have finally emerged into what we've been dreaming and talking about for the last 5 years?

Last month, Verizon was at my work peddling their phones as they usually do once a month and while I was walking by, I saw a PocketPC in the middle of all of the phones. I picked it up and soon realized that this wasn't a PocketPC but a SmartPhone. I asked if it had Wifi in it and the CSR said that it did. This is really important to me because I currently have two IPAQ 4155 PocketPC's that I use at home to wirelessly control my home automation project and my home theater and audio.

I'd like to just list the things I am doing with my smartphone:

1. The built in Wifi makes it a 'remote control' for my home automation. With this I control lights, blinds, fans, etc.

2. Provides me with an HTML interface to my home audio jukebox server.

3. By calling a local webpage I can view webcams I have set up around my house.

4. I can port a gig's worth of music or videos from home to work by pulling stuff off of my wireless local network at home and putting it on a miniSD card in the phone.

.. and that's just because it has Wifi capabilities. I'll be selling one of my 4155's because I don't need three controllers for my house.

because the XV6700 runs on the EVDO network, I can:

5. have access to all of my mp3's, pictures, and videos that are on my local network at home. I can even watch live TV that's being broadcasted from my house from anywhere I am. I can do this because of the broadband wireless network the XV6700 runs on and an application called ORB. Check out orb.com... it's free!

6. of course, I have internet access wherever I am so I'm never without email, instant messenger, SMS or MMS. The phone is also a camera/video camera so I can shoot something and literally in a minute or so, have it sitting on my home network where I can distribute it as I need.

7. I am always up to date as far as my work and play schedule because of the syncing capabilities with outlook and other online calendar apps.

I feel like I should be a salesman for this phone but I see so many benefits of having this phone. I've been building my home automation infrastructure with this device as the main controller in mind and I see it being so much more than even that. Your imagination is it's only limitation!

Raphael, If you're a happy customer with Cingular than by all means stay with them. All I'm saying is Verizon is rolling with EVDO and this is the time great things are created; when there's a convergence of technologies. It's happening, right now.

Cheers!
Eric

Phillip Dyson

03-10-2006, 11:49 PM

I suppose when you have to settle for something, it has to be tangible, real, and in front of you.

I can't only agree here half way. As someone who on occasion finds himself having to plan a software architecture, I understand that you have to consider the future as much as it makes sense. Often trying to postion yourself to be in an acceptable place when the partially unknown shows up.

Here's some of the things we do know.
1. You have a tech addition. You'd be locking into a single device. For 2 years. !
2. High speed GSM will come... eventually.
3. New devices show up about every 6 - 8 months.

Its like the marriage question. Sure, there's something special about this device. But can you really see yourself with only one device for such a long time?[/list]

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 12:27 AM

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 12:35 AM

Here's some of the things we do know.

1. You have a tech addition. You'd be locking into a single device. For 2 years. !
2. High speed GSM will come... eventually.
3. New devices show up about every 6 - 8 months.

1. He could opt for a one year contract (Device discount lower)

2. Eventually isn't today, tomorrow or even this year.

3. Sounds to me he's found a device already :wink:

ctmagnus

03-11-2006, 12:45 AM

jngold_me

03-11-2006, 01:22 AM

I guarantee you, if you do switch to Verizon, you'll be happy for about 6 months before getting the feeling you made a horrible mistake.

Ok, so get yourself a 6700 now. What makes you think a 6700 will satisfy your needs for a PPC? From what I know and what you have written, you don't settle for any one device for that long. In about 3-4 months, something will come along that will knock the socks off of the 6700 and you'll want it - guaranteed. Then what will you do?

Now, let's talk Verizon. Their pricing and lock-down mentality truly earn it the title "Evil Empire". Verizon picks and choose who can do what and says to the rest, "pay to do this". This is referring to the individual who says he can use his Razr and BT to pair his devices. Guess what? A Treo user can't. If you wan't to, you pay for a pda tethering plan. Give me a break.

If the only reason you are considering this is 3G then forget it. GSM 3G (UMTS/HSDPA) is coming and it will be a force to be reckoned with. Let me ask you something. What do you feel the need to have 3G for now anyways? Are you constantly on the road so that you absolutely need to stream audio and video to your device at all times? Do need to do OTA syncs with thousands of contacts? Or, do you just want to load PPCT's up a bit faster? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but you need to consider that choosing a carrier and locking yourself in is a much bigger decision for someone like you who needs to be on the cutting edge of technology. If you tell me that Cingular don't work well for you in the places you need to be, then I understand the logic of having to switch.

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 01:50 AM

Now, let's talk Verizon. Their pricing and lock-down mentality truly earn it the title "Evil Empire". Verizon picks and choose who can do what and says to the rest, "pay to do this". This is referring to the individual who says he can use his Razr and BT to pair his devices. Guess what? A Treo user can't. If you wan't to, you pay for a pda tethering plan. Give me a break.

Typical fanboy talk. The Verizon Treo 650 and 700W can both be synced and tranfer files via BT without any hacks. Both phones can be used for DUN as well (with either a hack or 3rd party app). Do your homework before spouting off.

jngold_me

03-11-2006, 02:07 AM

Sounds to me like the fanboy here is you. Sure you can add third party hacks or apps, but that's not really the point here, is it now?

BTW, isn't the EVDO network able to determine wheter you are using DUN? Wasn't some guy charged thousands of dollars by using when he paired his computing device to his phone?

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:09 AM

Verizon will let you go on a month to month basis once your contract expires. Does Cingular allow this? If so that may be an option to think about.
I believe all the carriers do this (certainly, Verizon and T-Mobile do)... although on occasion various promotional items disappear with the contract.

Raphael - if you do go with Verizon, you certainly want to consider the one-year option. I usually pay the extra $$ for the flexibility.

--janak

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 02:10 AM

Sounds to me like the fanboy here is you. Sure you can add third party hacks or apps, but that's not really the point here, is it now?

*Boggle* It is when you spread FUD.

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:11 AM

I have no clue which GSM frequencies work where, but lately I've been seeing ads for a Telus phone that's both CDMA and dual-band GSM. So if work in that area continues, hopefully a quadband GSM + CDMA PPCPE will show up in the hopefully not-too-distant future.
Unlikely, actually. The phone you probably saw is the Samsung i830, whose GSM bands are only 900/1800 (Europe, Asia). In general, such phones only support world GSM frequencies -- the carriers are careful to not let you use the competitors' technology.

--janak

aquanaut

03-11-2006, 02:11 AM

If you travel and ever plan to spend any reasonable amount of time in Asia (excl. Japan/Korea), Europe or down under, GSM is univeral -- grab a prepaid SIM card from at the corner 7-11 and you're current 'device' becomes localized. Contacts stay in the phone (synced to Outlook). $4.99 a month gprs from T-Mo in the U.S. works for basic web browsing and email notes. Not for everyone, but you'll appreciate tri- or quad-band GSM devices with GPRS/EDGE and WCDMA 2100. Cheers

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:15 AM

I guarantee you, if you do switch to Verizon, you'll be happy for about 6 months before getting the feeling you made a horrible mistake.
Depends. I'm on my third Windows Mobile device with Verizon, two-years plus. I'm a fairly patient sort, though.

Ok, so get yourself a 6700 now. What makes you think a 6700 will satisfy your needs for a PPC? From what I know and what you have written, you don't settle for any one device for that long. In about 3-4 months, something will come along that will knock the socks off of the 6700 and you'll want it - guaranteed. Then what will you do?
It's a legitimate question. I find that the one-year contract is just tolerable, as when the contract ends a new device is usually out. In any case, I can't justify buying a device every 6 months unlocked anyway -- it's way too much $$.

If the only reason you are considering this is 3G then forget it. GSM 3G (UMTS/HSDPA) is coming and it will be a force to be reckoned with.
Yes, but when? That's the key question. If it was < 6 months, sure, one can wait. But there's not a single Pocket PC on the horizon yet with HSDPA 1900. Of course, one could appear on Monday. Or 12 months from now. That's the million-dollar question. I'd like to think that Cingular will be faster than that. If they are, then that is a huge influence on the decision.

Are you constantly on the road so that you absolutely need to stream audio and video to your device at all times? Do need to do OTA syncs with thousands of contacts? Or, do you just want to load PPCT's up a bit faster?
Actually, I don't use EVDO for video. It makes websurfing tolerable. I can't go back to GPRS/EDGE/1xRTT after EVDO.

--janak

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:17 AM

Typical fanboy talk. The Verizon Treo 650 and 700W can both be synced and tranfer files via BT without any hacks. Both phones can be used for DUN as well (with either a hack or 3rd party app). Do your homework before spouting off.
byteme, jngold, lose the attitude or I'll split your posts off.

Now, to address this: while PDANet can tether the Treos, use of EVDO is against the TOS, and Verizon has been known to crack down on medium-to-heavy tethered users. So it's not that simple. :? Verizon is slated to release a tethering update (plus associated plan) for at least one of the Pocket PC Phones they sell, but it's not out yet.

--janak

jngold_me

03-11-2006, 02:22 AM

Now, to address this: while PDANet can tether the Treos, use of EVDO is against the TOS, and Verizon has been known to crack down on medium-to-heavy tethered users. So it's not that simple. :? Verizon is slated to release a tethering update (plus associated plan) for at least one of the Pocket PC Phones they sell, but it's not out yet.

That just adds to the anti-Verizon argument. So you want to tether legally? Pay for it. :roll:

ctually, I don't use EVDO for video. It makes websurfing tolerable. I can't go back to GPRS/EDGE/1xRTT after EVDO.

That's understandable, but EDGE can be very acceptable. I consistantly use EDGE for surfing and things like LogMeIn, works just fine.

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 02:29 AM

Typical fanboy talk. The Verizon Treo 650 and 700W can both be synced and tranfer files via BT without any hacks. Both phones can be used for DUN as well (with either a hack or 3rd party app). Do your homework before spouting off.
byteme, jngold, lose the attitude or I'll split your posts off.

Now, to address this: while PDANet can tether the Treos, use of EVDO is against the TOS, and Verizon has been known to crack down on medium-to-heavy tethered users. So it's not that simple. :? Verizon is slated to release a tethering update (plus associated plan) for at least one of the Pocket PC Phones they sell, but it's not out yet.

--janak

Apologies. FUD drives me crazy.

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:35 AM

That just adds to the anti-Verizon argument. So you want to tether legally? Pay for it. :roll:
Right. I've made a compromise: tethering is less of a priority for me for the moment, and I'm hoping that Verizon offers it by the time I need it. To me, that compromise is a win, because I'd rather have mobile EVDO than tethered EDGE. If your priorities differ, it's understandable. I am looking forward to UMTS, if for no other reason that Verizon/Sprint will have competition, which often leads to reduced prices.

By the way, doesn't Cingular technically have a laptop plan for tethered use? Or do the PDA plans legally allow for tethering? (I make the "legal" distinction, because as others have pointed out, it is theoretically possible to tether almost every Verizon device out there now.)

That's understandable, but EDGE can be very acceptable. I consistantly use EDGE for surfing and things like LogMeIn, works just fine.
I know. 1xRTT is similar, and it's really not bad at all. But, I warn you, EVDO is addictive. For your own sake, don't go anywhere near it. :P It's really quite like having WiFi everywhere you go, but faster as you don't have to wait for the device to associate with the access point.

FUD drives me crazy.
I wouldn't personally characterize jngold's posts as classical FUD. If you do, that's fine, but let's please maintain a reasonable conversation. As you can see, I've addressed his posts with my opinions, which are just as legitimate.

thanks,

--janak

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 02:37 AM

That just adds to the anti-Verizon argument. So you want to tether legally? Pay for it. :roll:

Different argument but correct

That's understandable, but EDGE can be very acceptable. I consistantly use EDGE for surfing and things like LogMeIn, works just fine.

Acceptable? I'll take your word for it. But were are talking slower than dialup speed (Edge) versus DSL speed (EVDO)

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 02:39 AM

Acceptable? I'll take your word for it. But were are talking slower than dialup speed (Edge) versus DSL speed (EVDO)
I believe EDGE can approach roughly 100kbps, like 1xRTT. Nowhere near EVDO, but a lot better than GPRS. Torture is using the Universal in the US with miserably-slow GPRS. Darn the Universal and its lack of EDGE. :evil:

--janak

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 02:43 AM

I believe EDGE can approach roughly 100kbps, like 1xRTT. Nowhere near EVDO, but a lot better than GPRS. Torture is using the Universal in the US with miserably-slow GPRS. Darn the Universal and its lack of EDGE. :evil:

--janak

Really? I stand corrected then. My sister uses Cingular and EDGE sure seemed a good bit slower than 1xRTT. Maybe she was using GPRS but she had the EDGE indicator displayed.

elehcdn

03-11-2006, 02:53 AM

Tethering? Who cares about that? I bought an EDGE Card on ebay for $50, pull the SIM out of my phone, stick it in the EDGE card, stick the EDGE card into the PC slot and surf directly on my Tablet PC running WinXP. All for the price of MediaNet.

Having run EDGE on a Tablet, I have to think that a lot of the speed issues are more tied to the cell phone hardware or the bluetooth or wired connection to a laptop.

Meanwhile, for the times when a small screen and slightly slower access is acceptable, I leave the SIM card in my 8125 and download email and check on restaurant reviews.

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 03:24 AM

Really? I stand corrected then. My sister uses Cingular and EDGE sure seemed a good bit slower than 1xRTT. Maybe she was using GPRS but she had the EDGE indicator displayed.
EDGE can vary a lot, especially with signal strength. I think EDGE is less spectrally efficient than 1xRTT, so while its potential is similar, depending on the call density in the area, its average may be lower.

Tethering? Who cares about that? I bought an EDGE Card on ebay for $50, pull the SIM out of my phone, stick it in the EDGE card, stick the EDGE card into the PC slot and surf directly on my Tablet PC running WinXP. All for the price of MediaNet.
I've thought about that, but I don't really like that option. I like to get SMS and voicemail notifications. If I'm on the train, fiddling with the SIM card is also a pain too. Finally, try loading large webpages with something like EDGE. It may take 10 or 20 seconds. EVDO will take 2 or 3 seconds to load the same thing. It literally feels like you're sitting at your desk at home or work. I do accept, though, that EDGE is quite tolerable. :)

--janak

encece

03-11-2006, 03:39 AM

OH MY GOD! You have nailed my thoughts down exactly on the dilemma plaguing me for months and months...aside from my issue with poor spelling.

Verizon EVDO is so cool and they are coming out with cooler new devices at a somewhat faster pace. But there is literally a WHOLE WORLD of unlocked/unlockable GSM devices to choose from. I can't give that up by locking myself into CDMA.

d-s-a-elwuero

03-11-2006, 04:07 AM

I made this mistake three times. I wanted to do the same thing because I was tired of switching phones all of the time (money and explaining to my wife), but once with Verizon, Sprint and Nextel. Sprint was the only one that didnt cost me an arm and a leg because I turned it in within the 14 days they gave me. The idea is good to just pick one unit and be satisfied but once you have the gadget bug its like a drug and its impossible to change. (I really believe it.) The minute a new device comes out with some new innovations you will want to switch and you wont be able to. GSM phones are the only ones that allow you to easily switch. Even if Verizon comes out with a new pda / phone you want, it will be expensive to switch and you will more than likely have to update your phone plan. With GSM the carrier never knows when you change your phone. T-Mobile edge works great at least here in CA; It is as fast as I could ever want.

I have friends that still use their Palm Pilots and some that bought a Treo 600 a few years back and they are still satisfied. These people are not gadget freaks but those of us like you and me (BeyondTheTech) unfortunately will never be fully satisfied. Take my advice and stick with your GSM carrier. Promise to be honest, if you stay with Verizon for now, and advise when you switch back to Cingular or go to T-Mobile.

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 04:18 AM

I guess I'm missing something here. Several people have mentioned how much easier it is to switch GSM phones. Easier how? I understand about the address book being on the SIM card but what else makes things so much easier? I've had probably 9 or 10 different phones/pda over the last 6 years with Verizon and I've always been able to move contacts and data from phone to phone without a lot of hassle. I've always activated the new phones myself to. So SIM card has the address book and doesn't require activation. What else?

encece

03-11-2006, 04:59 AM

With verizon, you need to Activate your individual phone. And only be able to use one. If you wanted to switch, you need to contact them and have the switch the activation from one phone to another.

With GSM...pop the sim out of one phone and into another....now that's your phone. Take it out and pop it in another...now THAT'S your phone. With MS Smartphones & PPC Phones....I dont know anyone who put contacts on their SIM card as the phone handles all of that...syncing w/ActiveSync....well over the SIM cards limitations.

I could have 10 GSM phones in front of me and switch phones at will.

PLUS....I could buy a compatible GSM phone from Europe, as I often do as they get most of the cool phones first...a phone that ordinarily would never see the light of day here in the US....pop my SIM in and use it. Cant do that with verizon.

Macguy59

03-11-2006, 05:21 AM

dling1971

03-11-2006, 06:18 AM

encece

03-11-2006, 06:36 AM

the point is it's easier & more convenient & you have more phone options instead of just Verizons delayed offerings.

Which phones can you use? Any carrier unlocked GSM phone that offers US bands 850 or 1900. Which is many with today's quadband phones.

Janak Parekh

03-11-2006, 06:38 AM

I guess I'm missing something here. Several people have mentioned how much easier it is to switch GSM phones. Easier how?
As others have mentioned, activation is becoming easier on the CDMA front, although SIM swapping still makes it easier to pick-and-choose.

The bigger advantage of GSM is that the SIM enables an "open market". Since the carrier doesn't have to approve the device, third-parties (a la i-Mate) can sell the units. This means a) shorter time-to-market for the cutting-edge hardware; and b) competitive pricing (well, not always for the early units, but in general when there's more than one source there's the possibility of saving money).

How many phones released across the pond will work over here?
That's a good question. Right now, most Pocket PC Phones work here without major modifications. However, phone support gets more complicated with each iteration. Now, you have to make sure your bands are supported for GSM/GPRS and that EDGE is a feature for full North American functionality. Soon, you'll have to watch for UMTS/HSDPA 1900 support as well. And, for some inexplicable reason, HTC still releases triband phones... which means diminishing coverage as time goes on. :? I would generally avoid a 900/1800/1900 phone for North American use today; 850 coverage is growing with both Cingular and T-Mobile.

--janak

Cybrid

03-11-2006, 06:54 AM

Perhaps I am missing the point.
I'm guessing here but.....
GSM phone switching requires buying the new phone at the premium unsubsidized rate. It is impractical to rotate SIM cards if you put yourself in a contract each phone switch.

Now. Telus will sell you a 6700 on no contract for $549CDN and activate on a month to month basis. When you tire (which I doubt), cancel and sell-buy a new GSM /CDMA device as would please you. Is that not available with Verizon?

It really boils down to:
If you value your freedom more than the $150 discount...don't go contract :confused: Just suck it up & make your decision. ;)

squeeze

03-11-2006, 07:25 AM

I just got off the VZW camp and joined the CING camp...here's the story...

I got off my 5,000 MIN + 2,000 MIN LOYALTY MIN + Unlimited Data + Unlimited SMS for $149 from TMO to get on the EVDO train. I bought the I730 and loved it. Did all the mods, totally usable, all you can eat pricing was decent. I then ugpraded to the Treo 700w. Great in all respects but I needed more. Then I upgraded to the xv6700 - great device, but it had quirks (like it would wake up on Exchange sync). I TETHERED ALL THE DEVICES ON MY TABLET PC AND LOVED IT. I got off the EVDO path within my contract and didn't get charged the termination fee (I can explain how on a spearate thread).

Then the Cingular 2125 came out. I've been desparate for a "real phone" so I got off the EVDO and jumped onto EDGE - much to be desired about the network (since I did EVDO for about 6 months), but with the 2125, EDGE was perfectly fine. I found myself tethering less because of the speed. The the 8125 came out, I bought that too - added it as a shared family plan so I got the subsidized price.

I love the SIM factor - I have 2 active sims (one for overall use and the other with an unpublished number...for those days when you need to go "dark"). I have an active inventory of Treo 650 (world unloced by Palm1), Nokia N70 and N90 (bitchin' cam phones...these "just work" as a great phone and cam...couldn't ask for more) and then the 8125 and 2125.

Granted, the SIM factor allows me to by phones and PDA like it was crack. EVDO/CDMA was more of a controlled fix, I knew I had to wait from what was available by the carrier - as opposed to the free world GSM market. So this provided a nice "choke" to the addiction.

Ralphael here's my useless advice:

GO EVDO if:
1) Need broadband all the time everytime everywhere all in the palm (literally) of you hands
2) Need a "choke" to slow down the device purchases

GO EDGE if:
1) You are addicted to crack (aka PDA/PHones) and need it as soon as HTC dishes one out
2) Work or travel overseas where you need to jack a simm at the local mart for decent local coverage
3) Need a phone that goes with your outfit or mood (seriously, I take the Nokia's on the weekend - who needs Outlook on the weekends...??)

Either way, they are all good. If you are addicted to crack (see above) then regardless of price, you will pay to trade up or pay to get out....we've all done it before.

You'll be happy regardless of purchase...guaranteed. Good luck.

===================

The Data Centric Keepers: Cingular 2125/1825
The Phone Centric Keepers: Nokia N70/N90
Returned or Paid Term Fees: Samsung i730, Treo 700w, XV6700

C Sammet

03-11-2006, 07:46 AM

I too was Verizon with the I700 and am now Cingular with the 8125. I had the opportunity to play with a 6700 for a couple months on EDVO. Nice, but unless I was going to need the speed for some app I was running or if I was going to surf the web on my PPC a lot it wasn't that big a difference.

In our aread at least EDVO on the 6700 only clocked 180K and now with the 8125 on EDGE I clock 130K, for a $100 lower per month bill I can live without the 50K difference. In addition, as someone else mentioned I am not locked into a device with this set-up and I won't be having issues with what I want to do with the device as I had with Verizon.

It really boils down to Freedom versus Speed. Which ever is important to you is where you should go.

By the way, who ever it was above that said they switched phones easily with Verizon I have a question. How did you do it without it extending any existing contract? When I tried after they released the 6600 only 6 months into mine I was told that it would reset my contract for the full two years and the discount was nothing. A friend of mine did it and he is still stuck. Just curious if that has changed or weren't you aware of this penalty?

tobiasfunke

03-11-2006, 09:38 PM

Been with VZW about five years in Detroit; just bought an SP3i and got Cingular service also; I love the features of the smartphones and until the Q comes out (if ever), I'll use both.

I have found GSM service wanting; Verizon just kills Cingular and T-Mobile in terms of coverage and penetration - I was in an office building yesterday with the SP3i and had four bars as I walked in; between zero and one when inside. EV-DO blows Edge away, period.

VZW generally has bad phones, of course, and they're locked down. I want a really small - preferably clamshell - smartphone and of course VZW doesn't offer one. I had the 6700 and it was bigger than what I'm comfortable with, but I'll say this; if you tried it and liked it then there's just no downside. You can hack out the locks, you're on a wider, faster, more reliable network. Find one on Ebay or somewhere else if you don't like the idea of being stuck in a contract.

Regarding upcoming GSM innovations that are just around the corner, I'll relate a little anecdote. In 1975 my parents' friends bought the first commercial Sony Betamax. It was actually a huge console that was a TV and top-loading VCR all in one. Being six, I naturally wanted it immediately. Priced at $2500, my parents naturally didn't. For years I pined for one - even as they became relatively commonplace - and for years my dad told me we'd get one when they came down enough in price. In early 1985 he finally gave in. My dad was, and is, cheap - affording even the first model was a non-issue. He saved the two grand over ten years, but we had no VCR. My point is this; if you live to be 80 years old, you'll have exceeded the national average. Each year represents 2.5 percent of your life. You can spend that 2.5 percent waiting for better technology, or you can find the closest thing it is to what you want, and get it.

There will ALWAYS be something better, but the time that is spent waiting for that "better" is irreplaceable. I've had an EVDO PC card from VZW for almost two years. All along the way I've heard how its days are numbered, and how there will be much faster solutions just around the corner. One, it's two years later and there hasn't been anything faster, and two, I've had high speed internet access just about anywhere I've been for the last two years of my life.

If you find a 6700 somewhere, buy it. You'll have everything you want, and if and when a GSM provider comes out with a better device with better service, you can sell the 6700. In the meantime you'll have exactly the PDA you want on a fast network; who could ask for more?

03-12-2006, 04:23 AM

I recently switched to HTC Apache (in the form of Sprint ppc-6700), and is really happy with the device. Now, that is a real and practical keyboard.
I would be concerned if the carrier does not allow us to use the device as a wireless modem. Unlike Verizon, I thought Sprint does not do that, but I have not verify that myself. Interestingly, most of the discussion in this thread do not talk about Sprint. I am wondering if there is other concern with Sprint.

apeguero

03-12-2006, 07:15 AM

I've tried all of the major carriers in the US over the last 4 - 5 years chasing the perfect phone. I thought I had found it with the Treo 650 and Cingular but, like Rafael, I too am addicted to the latest and greatest. I waited and waited for Cingular to put out the 8125 and UMTS. When I saw that they kept putting it off I headed over to one of my last carriers, whom I was very happy with except for their antiquated phones, Sprint. I tried out their PPC 6700 and was amazed. I made the switch and took a $300.00 hit for switching.

I was always rather upset at Cingular for not allowing me to have a PDA (SMT 5600 then Treo 650) and a regular cell (RAZR V3) as a family share plan. Cingular requires the PDA to run on it's own. Since my wife doesn't like PDA phones I had to get her the RAZR, otherwise she would've given crap over switching from what we had before - two Sanyo MM phones with Sprint. Married men will know what I'm talking about here :)

Now, I know, Sprint had the Treo 650 also but when I switched to Cingular I did it because of the SMT 5600. I was also atracted by the phone swapping abilities that GSM gave me. I later found that it alone was not good enough reason to switch as I don't travel out of the US enough except for maybe once a year to the Dominican Republic. When I do I have an old GSM phone I take with me - problem solved.

I was and still am impressed with Sprint. It used to cost me around $160.00 (Military discount included) for Cingular's PDA and cell phone plan with roll over and unlimited data. Very expensive and also very slow data.

It's costing me around $110.00/month with Sprint Fair and Flexible plan and unlimited Vision on both my PPC 6700 and my wife's Samsung SPH-A940. She loves her phone and I like mine. Sprint coverage is excellent here in the Eastern MA area. I also work in the Detroit area and I've yet to lose a call. I used to get a lot of dropped calls on Cingular in both markets. My Treo still bears the many scars of being tossed around inside my car out of frustration of dropping calls.

Now, I wanted to dump my old PPC and Sanyo MM phone and combine both by getting a smartphone that could run PPC program. I thought the the SMT 5600 would do but I later discovered that there weren't that many useful Smartphone apps around. After I switched to AT&T from Sprint I spent about 4 months with the SMT 5600. I then did an internal switch by converting my old AT&T account to Cingular and got the Treo 650. Although that phone was nice it was, well, a Palm running an OS that's like a zillion years old. I waited and waited for Cingular to stop dragging their feet with the 8125 and even. They never did. I then switched to Sprint and the rest is history. Even after Cingular released the 8125 the thing doesn't run faster than EDGE speed. Besides I was able to get the PPC 6700 from Sprint for $269.99 on eBay.

I don't know much about Verizon since it's the only one I haven't used. I ask you, why not Sprint, if you must switch? It's only like $15.00 for unlimited hi-speed data. If you want to keep using the latest and greatest and don't mind paying a lot of money for unlocked, uncompromised phones then renew your Cingular contract. I think the only thing you save by sticking with GSM is the $35.00 activation fee for every time you switch. Although I was charged an activation fee for a new SIM card when I switched from my SMT 5600 to the old Treo 650 because of some network change due to the SMT being under the old AT&T and the Treo under the new Cingular...

bradray

03-12-2006, 08:45 PM

I wouldn't ever buy a device from Verizon that is crippled. The whole notion that they are going to cripple my device in an attempt to make sure I can't do anything that they'd rather charge me for is insulting.

That being said I am in love with my PPC-6700 (apache) that I got from Alltel. Beautiful thing is that I can roam on Verizon's network but I have a fully functional device and I don't have to deal with them.

I know most people can't get Alltel (AZ company) but I'd go the sprint route if you can. Verizon should be punished from a community such as ours for pulling the stunts that they do. If they saw the PPC sales skyrocket on everyones elses networks, but stagnate of their own, they might get the hint.

rrypma

03-12-2006, 09:36 PM

Unless you need to tether, I can hardly imagine that browsing made-for-mobile sites on your PPC in an EDGE environment vs an EVDO is all that different. I find that I still gravitate towards and mainly use these "lo-fi" sites even when using wi-fi. I suppose that, in a pinch, the ability to access the more full featured "desktop" sites on an EVDO network can be conforting, but I certainly don't have any such sites bookmarked on my Axim 51v workhorse. Until the internet evolves to more widely embrace mobile devices, the mobile, simplified sites are still the only way to go for me at least, even when wifi is readily available.

Janak Parekh

03-12-2006, 10:09 PM

Unless you need to tether, I can hardly imagine that browsing made-for-mobile sites on your PPC in an EDGE environment vs an EVDO is all that different. I find that I still gravitate towards and mainly use these "lo-fi" sites even when using wi-fi. I suppose that, in a pinch, the ability to access the more full featured "desktop" sites on an EVDO network can be conforting, but I certainly don't have any such sites bookmarked on my Axim 51v workhorse.
You're right: EDGE is sufficient for mobile-optimized sites. However, I do access things like Wikipedia frequently, and while the pages are navigable using PIE's one-column mode, they're huge: typically 250-400K. The fact that it can load in 10 seconds or less via EVDO makes it very useable.

--janak

ADBrown

03-12-2006, 10:51 PM

Typical fanboy talk. The Verizon Treo 650 and 700W can both be synced and tranfer files via BT without any hacks. Both phones can be used for DUN as well (with either a hack or 3rd party app). Do your homework before spouting off.

This is misleading. You cannot do Bluetooth DUN with the T700w, period, hacks or no hacks. You can USB DUN via a cable and extra software, but it's kludgy at best. Didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

I believe EDGE can approach roughly 100kbps, like 1xRTT. Nowhere near EVDO, but a lot better than GPRS.

Technically, EDGE can be considerably faster than 1xRTT: 20-25 KB/second compared to 12. But that depends on network conditions, allocated bandwidth, client device, and a dozen other things. I've been running EDGE on Cingular and their CellularOne/Dobson roaming the last few days to test a device, and speeds have been between 12 and 17 KB/second. You'd probably get better speed closer to civilization.

Honestly, I have to say that I'd be hard pressed to go with CDMA service. I don't have the option of EVDO, of course, so that's not a factor, but even if I did, I think I'd opt for GSM. The CDMA carriers are just far too restrictive: no tethering, crippled Bluetooth, no swapping devices, locked down features, etcetera, etcetera...

Compare that to the ease of running on GSM, just swapping SIMs whenever you like. Not to mention the fact that if your main device gets damaged, you can just pull the SIM and stick it in a backup phone. Or do that beforehand, to protect your main device while you're doing risky things. Not to mention you can get more and far, far better phones.

If you need coverage, Cingular is as good as Verizon--better, when you consider that Verizon's coverage claims include areas that are analog, not CDMA, and there are almost no smartphones that can use analog coverage. For a real comparison, check out Verizon's enhanced services map. T-Mobile is also expanding their coverage dramatically. In-building penetration is a pretty subjective thing--what doesn't work for one person might work great for another.

It really comes down to whether you can live with the restrictions that are placed on you with CDMA technology.

ADBrown

03-12-2006, 10:58 PM

You're right: EDGE is sufficient for mobile-optimized sites. However, I do access things like Wikipedia frequently, and while the pages are navigable using PIE's one-column mode, they're huge: typically 250-400K. The fact that it can load in 10 seconds or less via EVDO makes it very useable.

Two words, times two: Opera Mini & Google Mobile. A 180 KB page in IE turns into 25 KB over Google or 8 KB on Opera. And that is *with* images.Add that to EVDO and you can have your pages in 2-3 seconds.

rrypma

03-12-2006, 11:02 PM

2 questions: Isn't Opera Mini JAVA based? I kinda don't like that, but could be swayed. Secondly, you use Google as a proxy to access other sites? Isn't this a 2 step process?

Janak Parekh

03-12-2006, 11:32 PM

Technically, EDGE can be considerably faster than 1xRTT: 20-25 KB/second compared to 12. But that depends on network conditions, allocated bandwidth, client device, and a dozen other things.
Right, and from what I've heard, in most places EDGE doesn't reach anywhere near the full potential. In fact, closer to civilization, there are less timeslots to allocate to EDGE on a given tower, so it's not always better.

If you need coverage, Cingular is as good as Verizon--better, when you consider that Verizon's coverage claims include areas that are analog, not CDMA, and there are almost no smartphones that can use analog coverage.
That's not quite true. Coverage differs by region. In the Northeast, Verizon still has top coverage. For example, Verizon covers all of the tunnels to/from Manhattan, including the rail tunnels under the Hudson and East Rivers. To the best of my knowledge, Cingular only covers some of them. That said, I'm sure there are pockets where each is better.

In-building penetration is a pretty subjective thing--what doesn't work for one person might work great for another.
Depends on the radio frequency. 800MHz has far better in-building penetration over a given distance than 1900MHz. Verizon has significant 800MHz holdings in the Northeast. In the South, that's often reversed, so coverage may vary significantly.

Two words, times two: Opera Mini & Google Mobile. A 180 KB page in IE turns into 25 KB over Google or 8 KB on Opera. And that is *with* images.Add that to EVDO and you can have your pages in 2-3 seconds.
I don't think Opera for Pocket PC has their compression proxy enabled -- last I checked, only their Symbian devices do (and I haven't used the J2ME version). I'll have to play with Google Mobile to get a better idea of its results compressing complex pages.

Actually, you indirectly point out an advantage for GSM: J2ME support. Verizon Pocket PCs do not have J2ME, because Verizon is pushing BREW. Most GSM (but not all) Pocket PC Phones have a Java midlet platform installed. I believe some Sprint units do, but I'm not sure.

--janak

Raphael Salgado

03-13-2006, 03:59 PM

Right, and from what I've heard, in most places EDGE doesn't reach anywhere near the full potential. In fact, closer to civilization, there are less timeslots to allocate to EDGE on a given tower, so it's not always better.

That's not quite true. Coverage differs by region. In the Northeast, Verizon still has top coverage. For example, Verizon covers all of the tunnels to/from Manhattan, including the rail tunnels under the Hudson and East Rivers. To the best of my knowledge, Cingular only covers some of them. That said, I'm sure there are pockets where each is better.

It's not just the fact that I'm going with Verizon's EV-DO because it's a few kb/sec faster - it's because the EDGE speed that I was getting was so inconsistent that it felt like merely very short bursts over GPRS. As I stated before, I ran that DSLReports' MSpeed test and I couldn't get the 600k test to complete once on Cingular while I ran it nearly four times on the adjacent Verizon device. I can tell you now that over the weekend, EV-DO surfing on the XV6700 feels almost the same as if I'm sitting at home with my Wi-Fi connection. The experience is nearly flawless, and that could not have said with any of my devices on Cingular with EDGE. I'd like to consider myself in very populated, non-rural areas of NY and NJ, so I'm assuming this is as good as it gets on their part.

Actually, you indirectly point out an advantage for GSM: J2ME support. Verizon Pocket PCs do not have J2ME, because Verizon is pushing BREW. Most GSM (but not all) Pocket PC Phones have a Java midlet platform installed. I believe some Sprint units do, but I'm not sure.

J2ME Runtime programs are available for download, some free, some as little as $5 from Handango. This won't be an issue and I don't think Verizon is pushing a BREW Runtime application anytime soon, though would be nice - I'd pay for a program or two that I saw on my friend's Get It Now thing...

I want to thank EVERYONE for making this a very active and helpful discussion over the past few days. It would appear though that: joining Verizon is an excellent way of curbing my spending habits of new devices;
the XV6700 is the most stable and well-built device I have ever used yet;
the fact that my wife knows she's getting the pink RAZR V3c and my daughter successfully using the easier-to-use Migo (she's 4) became big factors ;);
the consistent EV-DO speed I get nearly everywhere compared to the spotty and problematic EDGE is worth all this effort; and
the amount of up-front discounts I received by a rep at Verizon will reduce the costs of this whole endeavour, basically "a deal I can't refuse."

I'm still going to hold out for nearly all of the 15 days, but so far, like someone said previously, if you try EV-DO, even just for a little bit, it will be so addictive to want to keep and so painful to let go. That's exactly how I feel, and the fact that this 6700 has been put through its paces and passes with flying colors makes my feelings on this matter even better.

Some of the things I've been trying my 6700 and EV-DO on include: Acodic Mobile's Info2Go 3.0: Instant responses from their server make it fun to use anytime;
ComVu PocketCaster 2.5: Streaming camera and XScale power over EV-DO speeds make videoblogging fun!;
Streaming radio and surfing the internet via IE/ThunderHawk/Opera without a hiccup on the ENTIRE train ride;
EdgeQ TrafficEdge 3.0: instant snapshots of highway cameras;
Skype: enough said, even with EV-DO;
IM+: the best IM app, though that's not saying much since it has no real competition;
Buzztime Trivia Java applet in Internet Explorer - this is just downright fun stuff playing over the internet against other players.

On a sidenote, Vijay555's VJCandela makes my 6700 and other HTC phones an easy-to-use flashlight using the camera flash LED. I can even do morse code with it! ;)

Janak Parekh

03-13-2006, 05:41 PM

J2ME Runtime programs are available for download, some free, some as little as $5 from Handango.
I didn't know that. 8O Okay, time to start looking.

joining Verizon is an excellent way of curbing my spending habits of new devices;
Just make sure you're happy with this fact, or at least accepting of it. It used to bother me back in the day, but as I grow older (perish the thought 8O) the core functionalities become most important to me, and the Verizon devices I've had fit the bill. YMWV (your milage will vary). ;)

--janak

ADBrown

03-14-2006, 12:29 AM

2 questions: Isn't Opera Mini JAVA based? I kinda don't like that, but could be swayed. Secondly, you use Google as a proxy to access other sites? Isn't this a 2 step process?

Yes, Opera Mini is Java based. It's not always ideal, but it is fast, and does a great job crunching down websites for mobile use.

Google Mobile, when it breaks down a site, also sets up to intercept all the links, so you don't have to keep inputting new URLs every time you want to click on a link.

ADBrown

03-14-2006, 12:29 AM

Two words, times two: Opera Mini & Google Mobile. A 180 KB page in IE turns into 25 KB over Google or 8 KB on Opera. And that is *with* images.Add that to EVDO and you can have your pages in 2-3 seconds.
I don't think Opera for Pocket PC has their compression proxy enabled

No, it doesn't, and neither does the Smartphone version (odd, but there it is). With a Java environment, though, you can run Opera Mini on Windows. It has a few disadvantages, like not being able to download files, but I've found it to be quite effective when combined with the native Opera versions and IE.

Actually, you indirectly point out an advantage for GSM: J2ME support. Verizon Pocket PCs do not have J2ME, because Verizon is pushing BREW. Most GSM (but not all) Pocket PC Phones have a Java midlet platform installed. I believe some Sprint units do, but I'm not sure.

I didn't realize that, actually--I don't spend a lot of time with Verizon phones. I can tell you that both the 2125 and 8125 I have at the moment come with MIDlet runtimes, but the Sprint-based Apache didn't.

mobilelawyer

03-14-2006, 01:05 AM

Do what is in your best interest in the long run. I do think that switching because of your affinity for one device would be a mistake. The prior postings have covered all the positives and negatives. I am still inclined to think that the greatest variety of new devices are going to be offered to those that are on the GSM networks. Besides, do you really want that little Verizon nerd and his cohorts trailing you everywhere you go? The guy that repels out of nowhere on the rope really creeps me out. :wink:

Jerry Raia

03-17-2006, 08:36 PM

Can't believe I missed this thread. I do the same thing you do, new devices as they come out, old ones go to eBay. I'm sticking with Cingular. I'll wait on the speed. I need the new toys more than the speed. I can't wait around for the Verizon Dinosaur to catch up, if they ever do.

richyi

03-17-2006, 11:36 PM

:D I also love gadgets and the latest tech. I read and waited for what I would consider the ideal Pocket PC with a phone. I did not like taking along a PPC and a phone. Up to few weeks ago I just could not fine a unit that integrated the two into a package that I thought it should be. Finally I found THE right one and got the iMate JAMin. Amomg other features, what mattered to me and sold me on it were: Functions as a full featured PPC with MS Mobile 5 Op system, phone functions as good as any and as I would expect a cell phone to function, the size is exactly where it should be..not big like a HP PPC, little longer and thicker than a Razr, Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g capability and that /g was what I was waiting for and believe me internet connection is FAST and you can view it side ways! Fantastic 2MP camera and Video as well, excellent integration between Mobile Outlook contacs and the phone section...its exactly the way I thought such a device should be and do!
It is expensive as a unlock version but I put my T-mobile sim card in and its just humming along wonderfully and battery is good, too!
I know it has no keypad but I never liked them and on screen keypad is what I prefer using, anyway. No additional bulk and complication!
I went through all the service providers and $$$ if you know what I mean and here is the bottom line...its got to work (get good signal) where you use your phone and for me T-Mobile is the best. Good signal at home, work and anywhere in between and hopefully around the world since the phone is a quad, which was my another requirement.
I hope this helps.
Ryi

inteller

03-17-2006, 11:36 PM

well, as a person who was with sprint for 6 years, I can tell you the world of CDMA is not all its cracked up to be. Now the voice quality is excellent, I'd say second to none. However, their ability to deliver cutting edge phones and give you VARIETY is so pathetic it finally turned me off. Also one of the last straws with them was the EV-DO update for the PPC-6600. It was pathetic that they did not enable a device that worked with EV-DO just fine on Verizon.

The price premium on CDMA phones is also ridiculous. All those Apache users aren't even blinking at $550 for a phone that I pay $350 for on Cingular's Wizard and get better battery life to boot. EV-DO is the rich boys club and I find the ridiculous prices for EV-DO unacceptable....along with their wishy washy policies on tethering and downloading.

UMTS/HSDPA will be here to a lot of cities by end of year. EDGE is certainly an improvement over 1xRTT and enough to tide me over while second generation WM5 devices arrive with UMTS.

aristoBrat

03-17-2006, 11:55 PM

Add me to the list of GSM fans that has converted to Verizon because of EVDO.

We're testing both the Treo 700w and T-Mobile MDA at work, and although most everyone perfers the form factor of the MDA over the Treo, the Treo + EVDO experience can't be beat.

DeBary_FL

03-18-2006, 01:12 AM

But I can do ANYTHING I want with a Cingular device. ANYTHING. Wanna transfer files via bluetooth? - No problem. Wanna use it as a modem (cabled or wireless) to my laptop or Pocket PC? No problem.

Interesting. I can do all that with my RAZR V3c and soon to have XV6700. Been a happy Verizon customer since 2000 and have no plans to change. Simple things like call quality and the best coverage in the US are important to me. Back on topic . . . you may have another option. Verizon will let you go on a month to month basis once your contract expires. Does Cingular allow this? If so that may be an option to think about.

You can? Back in December I jumped ship from Cingular/AT&T, whom I'd been with for 10 years or so, and went with the Verizon RAZR V3c. I was totally dissatisfied and went back to Cingular and a RAZR V3 before my 2 weeks were up.

I had 2 major disappointments with Verizon. One was their EVDO service, or rather the lack thereof, and the other was their crippling of Bluetooth on the V3c. According to their coverage map both my houses in the Orlando FL area should have had EVDO coverage. I could only get an EVDO signal on the phone when I was very close to Orlando. In the areas where I spend 99% of my time the fastest I was able to connect my HP iPAQ hx4705 to the web through the Verizon RAZR was 14.4kbps, not anywhere near worth what they charge for data service.

The OBEX File Transfer protocol was enabled on my V3c. However, when I went to transfer contacts from the hx4705 to the RAZR via Bluetooth I found that Verizon, in their infinite wisdom, had disabled the OPP (object push) profile. Interestingly, when I called Verizon, the 3 tech support guys I ended up talking to insisted that both the OPP and OBEX protocols were disabled on Verizon's RAZR. When I told them that OBEX wasn't disabled on my phone and that I had used it they insisted that this was impossible. It was at this point that I said adieu to Verizon.

I'm quite happy with Cingular's service and their RAZR V3. I can transfer files and contacts via Bluetooth, and I can connect my iPAQs to the web through the RAZR's Bluetooth connection at rates of 34-42 kbps. While the Internet connection isn't high speed, it does approximate a standard dial-up connection and is quite usable. And best of all, it's been available wherever I've tried it in the Florida/Georgia/South Carolina areas I frequent.

Yes, Cingular does offer month-to-month service after the contract expires. Also, Cingular (and I believe most other companies) offer a full month trial period, whereas Verizon only gives you 2 weeks to try out their phones/system.

inteller

03-18-2006, 05:51 PM

yeah, thats another example of CDMA carriers screwy policies. They lure you in with nice technology and turn you off with their draconian policies. As long as you pay their nickel and dime fees and never interact with their bureaucratic CS you will like them.

aristoBrat

03-18-2006, 09:05 PM

Eh, maybe the CDMA operators are wising up?

IIRC, unlimited EVDO PDA data on Sprint = $15.00/month I don't care how many screwy policies you have to deal with, that's an incredible rate. :)

Although Verizon hasn't dropped their PDA data price, they are adding the ability to tether with their phones/PDAs for $15.00/month on top of the PDA data plan. I haven't seen where you can do that on Cingular (without violating their TOS).

It seems like every carrier has their way of nickle and diming. T-Mobile usually disables built-in email clients on regular phones, forcing users to use their $5.99/month t-zones service for email. They also disabled 802.11G on the MDA.

ADBrown

03-18-2006, 10:02 PM

inteller

03-18-2006, 10:26 PM

since I have a 8125 I dont care about tethering. I DO care about being able to do whatever I want with my device, which is why I could never abide by verizons stupid policies of disabling bluetooth profiles and preventing access to the file system.

on the phone side verizon uses BREW, as does every major CDMA carrier except sprint (which has hinted going to it) BREW is junk, and while I'm not a fan of Java, at least it is more open and portable than brew.

DeBary_FL

03-18-2006, 10:57 PM

Although Verizon hasn't dropped their PDA data price, they are adding the ability to tether with their phones/PDAs for $15.00/month on top of the PDA data plan. I haven't seen where you can do that on Cingular (without violating their TOS).

Actually, you can tether using the $20 a month Media plan. It's not officially supported by Cingular, meaning they won't help you do it, but they don't discourage it either. You can also use the $20 plan on smartphones, unlike Verizon.

I'm not sure what ya'll mean by "tether." If you mean access the Internet with my PPCs through Cingular's Media plan using the the phone's Bluetooth connection, then yes you can. I've been doing it for several years. AT&T/Cingular has a Build a Solution site (http://support.cingular.wdsglobal.com/buildasolution.asp) that gives instructions for linking various phones/PPCs. The solutions were for AT&T customers, but they work for me with Cingular.

If I've misunderstood what ya'll meant by tethering I apologize. :)

aristoBrat

03-18-2006, 11:16 PM

Actually, you can tether using the $20 a month Media plan. It's not officially supported by Cingular, meaning they won't help you do it, but they don't discourage it either. You can also use the $20 plan on smartphones, unlike Verizon.
FWIW, that doesn't look like it's still the case w/ Cingular's latest MEdia Net "legal notice":

http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal
MEdia Net packages are not available on PDAs, RIM devices, or Laptop Modem Cards. MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering.

ADBrown

03-18-2006, 11:40 PM

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 12:25 AM

I had 2 major disappointments with Verizon. One was their EVDO service, or rather the lack thereof, and the other was their crippling of Bluetooth on the V3c. According to their coverage map both my houses in the Orlando FL area should have had EVDO coverage. I could only get an EVDO signal on the phone when I was very close to Orlando. In the areas where I spend 99% of my time the fastest I was able to connect my HP iPAQ hx4705 to the web through the Verizon RAZR was 14.4kbps, not anywhere near worth what they charge for data service.
Verizon's EVDO coverage isn't everywhere yet, and they're still patching holes. Still, you shouldn't have connected at 14.4kbps; 1xRTT is ~ 100kbps. 14.4kbps suggests you issued a dial-up connection (e.g., QNC or Quick Net Connect, which is pre-1xRTT CDMA). That should have been fixable.

The OBEX File Transfer protocol was enabled on my V3c. However, when I went to transfer contacts from the hx4705 to the RAZR via Bluetooth I found that Verizon, in their infinite wisdom, had disabled the OPP (object push) profile. Interestingly, when I called Verizon, the 3 tech support guys I ended up talking to insisted that both the OPP and OBEX protocols were disabled on Verizon's RAZR.
I believe OBEX was supposed to be disabled, but Verizon messed up. :P They don't like OBEX very much, as it lets consumers bypass Get It Now. If OBEX is important to you, then yes, Verizon isn't a good choice.

--janak

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 12:27 AM

UMTS/HSDPA will be here to a lot of cities by end of year. EDGE is certainly an improvement over 1xRTT and enough to tide me over while second generation WM5 devices arrive with UMTS.
I'll certainly be looking forward to the UMTS/HSDPA release in the US, and who knows, I might switch back to GSM. :) However, let's watch it carefully -- I wouldn't be surprised if Cingular (on paper) restricts its use much like Verizon does with EVDO. Verizon's fear is that people will overuse EVDO without paying for it, thereby overutilizing their network, and that's why they have the anti-tethering provisions in their TOS.

--janak

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 12:31 AM

That's pretty much CYA, so that they have the option to disconnect somebody who'd being a problem. In reality, they really don't care. The non-availability of Media Net on PDAs is also disputable--it's officially not available, but as I understand it most CS reps will give it to you anyway. Also, thanks to GSM, you can always put a Media Net SIM into whatever device you like.
That was also the case with Verizon and 1xRTT -- while tethering was technically forbidden on their 1xRTT Smartphone plans, it was also CYA. I used 1xRTT all the time while on the cheaper Smartphone plan, and to the best of my knowledge, they never cracked down on anyone. Worked great too; as I mentioned before, the practical speeds were close to EDGE. In fact, if you get a RAZR v3c you can apparently turn off EVDO and use 1xRTT Bluetooth DUN just fine (well, that's what Howard Forums folks were doing a few months ago; not sure if that's changed).

Life is different with EVDO. EVDO can use significant amounts of network bandwidth, and Verizon's been cracking down on heavy EVDO tetherers. Again, I'll be watching to see what Cingular does as they continue to roll out HSDPA and start releasing HSDPA-enabled phones.

--janak

aristoBrat

03-19-2006, 12:55 AM

I'll certainly be looking forward to the UMTS/HSDPA release in the US, and who knows, I might switch back to GSM. :)
Same here. :)

How happy I am with a device depends not just on the device, but also highly on the data network that runs the device. Until I have a choice (i.e. when UMTS/HSPDA is up and going, and there are WM devices for it), I can't think of a single GSM device that would make me as happy as I am with an EVDO 6700.

That, plus I've hit the point with WM where the thought of paying $600+ to get the latest HTC release imported just doesn't thrill me anymore. I'd rather wait 6-9 months until the carriers release it themselves.

Seems with the Pocket PCs that all of the big carriers here end up getting pretty much the same thing eventually. Isn't the T-Mobile MDA, Verizon/Sprint 6700 and Cingular 8125 basically the same device?

DeBary_FL

03-19-2006, 03:10 AM

DeBary_FL

03-19-2006, 03:30 AM

MEdia Net packages are not available on PDAs, RIM devices, or Laptop Modem Cards. MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering.

That's pretty much CYA, so that they have the option to disconnect somebody who'd being a problem. In reality, they really don't care. The non-availability of Media Net on PDAs is also disputable--it's officially not available, but as I understand it most CS reps will give it to you anyway. Also, thanks to GSM, you can always put a Media Net SIM into whatever device you like.

Exactly. I sat in the Cingular store and connected my hx4705 to the web in front of the salesperson. She was talking to someone at Cingular about questions I had about data plans. She told the person exactly what I was doing and wanted to do. Neither one had a problem with it.

And to further back that up, take a look at this Cingular link (https://onlinecare.cingular.com/device-support/setupOTW.do?universe=cingular&make=Motorola&model=V3). It contains detailed instructions for connecting to the web using the RAZR V3 and a Bluetooth-equipped PPC or laptop. If this was verboten I seriously doubt they'd post this on their web site.

aristoBrat

03-19-2006, 04:09 AM

And to further back that up, take a look at this Cingular link (https://onlinecare.cingular.com/device-support/setupOTW.do?universe=cingular&make=Motorola&model=V3). It contains detailed instructions for connecting to the web using the RAZR V3 and a Bluetooth-equipped PPC or laptop. If this was verboten I seriously doubt they'd post this on their web site.
It's not verboten. If you look up their LaptopConnect plans (where unlimited data = $79.99/month) you'll see where they list all of the phones that can be used as modems (and give instructions).

And I think it's great that Cingular's not enforcing the rules that they're clearly stating -- at this time. But there could come a time when they start enforcing their polices, and then a lot of people are going to be SOL.

The point I was trying to make is that as backwards as Verizon and Sprint are, they seem to be a little more progressive than Cingular when it comes to data plans. Well, if you're going to play by the carriers rules, anyways. ;)

aristoBrat

03-19-2006, 04:17 AM

DeBary_FL

03-19-2006, 06:06 AM

Exactly. I sat in the Cingular store and connected my hx4705 to the web in front of the salesperson. She was talking to someone at Cingular about questions I had about data plans. She told the person exactly what I was doing and wanted to do. Neither one had a problem with it.
I'm sure I'm stating the obvious, but from personal experience (and the countless posts in every US carrier's forum over at HowardForums), when it comes between believing what a store person says and what the posted policy is on the company's website, the website wins. 8O :D

Yes, I certainly agree with you there. However, the store person called someone who supposidly was an authority on data plans and their do's and don't's to answer my questions. That person was distinctly told that I was using the phone to access the web through my PPC and had no problems with it.

Who the heck reads TOS anyway? They're written by lawyers for god's sake! ;) I read that part of the Cingular TOS you posted and I have no idea what it really means, and I have a Ph.D. in Biochemistry! :D

inteller

03-19-2006, 05:04 PM

I look on Cingular's site and I see no less than 3 Windows Mobile devices. Looking at Sprint's site I see one, and it carries a jacked up price. Verizon is barely better, with two Windows Mobile devices.

Cingular consistently gets more devices and gets them quicker. With EDGE you can actually USE these devices. It's not EV_DO speeds, but I can get EDGE in the middle of BFE...try that will EV-DO or even 1xRTT. I have known all of this for years, but I put up with the nonsense from Sprint thinking they would get their heads screwed on straight. They just don;t get it. In order for CDMA to approach an acceptable level for me, Verizon will need to buy Alltel, dump BREW for Java, and start getting more WM devices on a quarterly basis.

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 06:20 PM

Seems with the Pocket PCs that all of the big carriers here end up getting pretty much the same thing eventually. Isn't the T-Mobile MDA, Verizon/Sprint 6700 and Cingular 8125 basically the same device?
No. Actually, the HTC Apache (the PPC-6700/XV-6700) has both a faster radio interface and a faster processor than the HTC Wizard (MDA/8125). Additionally, the Apache has Windows/OK buttons on the front, and the Wizard strangely does not.

Yes, I know the buttons can be worked around, and the speed doesn't make a practical difference in most cases. On the other hand, it's very useful to have those two buttons on the front, as my 700w does... and I had a friend IM me the other day; he's interested in getting a Pocket PC Phone that can also do Skype. The Wizard's CPU is, unfortunately, too slow to support Skype -- even with WiFi (unless you overclock the device to 236MHz+). From what I've read, the Apache can do Skype over WiFi or EVDO. He would prefer to stay with GSM, so he's stuck for now unless he spends the additional $$ to get a newer unlocked Pocket PC Phone.

So, ultimately, it boils down to one's requirements. I don't think one carrier has a simple superiority over another.

--janak

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 06:26 PM

Yes, I know that (1xRTT speed) and that's why I called Verizon tech support. They were totally useless.
I've typically found most wireless carriers useless when it comes to Pocket PC Phones. I can't tell you how much hassle I had with T-Mobile when I switched from my MMS-enabled T68 to a Pocket PC Phone that didn't support MMS and started getting garbage messages. Or when I adopted a JasJar and the T-Mobile SIM wouldn't work in it reliably (I ultimately played dumb to get a new SIM).

Who the heck reads TOS anyway? They're written by lawyers for god's sake! ;) I read that part of the Cingular TOS you posted and I have no idea what it really means, and I have a Ph.D. in Biochemistry! :D
It's only an issue if the carrier starts enforcing it. As I've said before, it's great Cingular doesn't at this time. But do be careful and read the forums when they move to more bandwidth-hungry technologies. There's people out there that overuse 3G (for example, to run P2P apps) and force carriers to adopt metering solutions. If Cingular doesn't, and keeps improving their coverage, people will switch and Verizon will ultimately be forced to relent. At least, I hope. We'll see.

--janak

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 06:28 PM

I look on Cingular's site and I see no less than 3 Windows Mobile devices. Looking at Sprint's site I see one, and it carries a jacked up price. Verizon is barely better, with two Windows Mobile devices.
Yeah, the lack of CDMA Smartphones is pretty abominable.

In order for CDMA to approach an acceptable level for me, Verizon will need to buy Alltel, dump BREW for Java, and start getting more WM devices on a quarterly basis.
Alas, you (or, pretty much anyone else in this thread) are a very, very small part of the userbase, and as such will likely not be any carrier's priority featurewise. Verizon is doing very well and getting good customer ratings, too, so I suspect they don't have enough incentive to change their policies that much.

--janak

inteller

03-19-2006, 09:00 PM

yeah, I get that excuse a lot. That me and everyone else here are just the small minority :roll: That must be why Cingular has been increasing their converged lineup every year. I'll tell you why WM phones will never fly on CDMA networks, because they are too open in their ability to do things and go completely contrary to the CDMA carriers nickel and dime kitch vending approach. They want complete control over their network down to the device so they can control what you put on your phone. If they could figure out a way to lock down what you put on your WM phone they would....and they'd make it where you had to buy everything from their stupid trinket store. There is more to life than ringtones, screensavers, and poorly ported games. Every time I talk to a former trinket phone user who has become enlightened to the ways of WM phones they are usually a Verizon or Sprint customer who wanted something better but had to go to a GSM carrier to get it.

Janak Parekh

03-19-2006, 11:20 PM

yeah, I get that excuse a lot. That me and everyone else here are just the small minority :roll:
Well, we are. Many "end-user" WM folks that I work with use mostly the built-in apps, with a few exceptions. Business entities are the primary large-scale customizers, and amongst all the carriers they're often the ones with early access to the high-end converged devices.

That must be why Cingular has been increasing their converged lineup every year.
I acknowledged that WM Smartphones are better supported in the GSM camp. And yet, Cingular has no 3G Windows Mobile phones yet. I hope they do carry the HTC Hermes, but we may have to wait for a North American version, as we use different UMTS frequencies (1900MHz) than Europe (2100MHz). It also took Cingular and T-Mobile a long time to release the HTC Wizard. In fact, amongst the current generation of Pocket PC Phones, Sprint was first-to-market with the PPC-6700 by about 4 months.

I'll tell you why WM phones will never fly on CDMA networks, because they are too open in their ability to do things and go completely contrary to the CDMA carriers nickel and dime kitch vending approach.
Eh... I don't entirely buy that. It wouldn't explain why one of Verizon's most advertised phones is the Treo 700w. Yes, I know it's BT-restricted, but apart from that it's pretty much open. The most locked down Windows Mobile phone, ever, was the first GSM Orange Smartphone (the SPV) -- it was app-locked. You couldn't install any unsigned apps (well, until everyone screamed out loud and Orange released the unlock patch). By comparison, Verizon's Samsung i600 Smartphone only needed carrier certificate for applications that wanted to hook into the system. I think Verizon realizes that business customers need the ability to install custom apps. They do make up for it by charging a fair bit for their high-end phones, though.

Every time I talk to a former trinket phone user who has become enlightened to the ways of WM phones they are usually a Verizon or Sprint customer who wanted something better but had to go to a GSM carrier to get it.
I don't agree with your generalization. I owned the first Pocket PC phone in the US, on GSM, and have since "gone back" to CDMA. Might I move back to GSM? Perhaps, but not before solid UMTS support where I work; last I checked, Cingular does not yet cover the NY area with UMTS.

--janak

inteller

03-20-2006, 02:29 AM

well duh maybe doesn't have any 3G phones yet because their UMTS rollout is not even official. The few test cities they have are just that, test cities. It wouldnt make sense for them to have a 3G phone. Heck verizons EV-DO coverage is crap compared to sprint, but they got the 700w.

Verizon's most advertised phone is the 700w becaue they have 6 months exclusive agreement to take advantage of. If they dont advertise the heck out of it all of that exclusive agreement is moot. What is most damning for them is once they lose their exclusive agreement, Cingular and Tmobile will sell more 700ws in 2 months than what Verizon did in 6. I wish it were the other way around, but CDMA carriers just squander what technical advantage they have time after time.

Even more hilarious is how people try to justitfy all the rip off prices on their phones, but then Cingular and T-mobile comes along and provides plenty of WM phones at reasonable prices.

See you back on WCDMA at the end of the year. GSM is thankfully going away.

aristoBrat

03-20-2006, 03:04 AM

See you back on WCDMA at the end of the year. GSM is thankfully going away.
I can't wait! I really look forward to seeing what WCDMA has to offer.

Until then, count me as an extremely satisifed EVDO customer. :)

Oh, and a very thankful that number porting is a piece of cake now-a-days. Remember when you had to get a new phone number every time you switched wireless carriers? Ack! :)

Janak Parekh

03-20-2006, 05:28 AM

well duh maybe doesn't have any 3G phones yet because their UMTS rollout is not even official. The few test cities they have are just that, test cities. It wouldnt make sense for them to have a 3G phone. Heck verizons EV-DO coverage is crap compared to sprint, but they got the 700w.
Actually, Cingular's service is very real (http://www.cingular.com/broadbandconnect_consumer).

What is most damning for them is once they lose their exclusive agreement, Cingular and Tmobile will sell more 700ws in 2 months than what Verizon did in 6. I wish it were the other way around, but CDMA carriers just squander what technical advantage they have time after time.
<shrug> We'll see.

Even more hilarious is how people try to justitfy all the rip off prices on their phones, but then Cingular and T-mobile comes along and provides plenty of WM phones at reasonable prices.
Phone price isn't the only criterion. It also so happens that Verizon works where I need it to. Neither Sprint nor T-Mobile works well at home, and Cingular barely works in my office.

If Cingular works for you, great! But please stop suggesting that, by using CDMA, we're "defending" a stupid technology/carrier or are fanboys. There's advantages and disadvantages to every carrier and technology. HSDPA will level the playing field, which will induce more competition, which is better for us.

--janak