HP Says No to Non-Converged Handheld Devices [Archive]

Darius Wey

03-02-2006, 11:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/HP_Pen_based_PDA_market_on_death_bed/0,2000061702,39241073,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardwa...39241073,00.htm</a><br /><br /></div><i>"The traditional pen-based PDA market will evaporate within the next four years without significant product innovation, according to Hewlett-Packard (HP). The company will therefore continue to focus the majority of its handheld efforts on converged smart phone devices, relegating its traditional PDAs to the entry-level consumer and SMB markets."</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050602-HP.gif" /><br /><br />Nothing surprising here. It's only a matter of time before converged devices replace non-converged devices, and the fact that HP hasn't released any groundbreaking standalone PDAs since the hx4700 (no, the rx1950 doesn't count) is a testament to that. And where's Dell in all this?

shinysteve

03-02-2006, 11:18 PM

ADBrown

03-02-2006, 11:33 PM

I agree, 3-3.5" PDA devices have little to offer these days.
Most of the everyday functionality has been moved to smartphones and the rest of the functions (handheld video and limited browsing) will been taken away by ultra-mobile carrypads/origami devices.

Bah! Those things are far too large and heavy for most people to carry around. Not to mention that they're far more expensive, less easy to use, shorter battery life, more fragile... I don't buy into the hype that these things are the next wave. They're a dud. Microsoft just can't bring themselves to focus on the one successful mobile product line that they have, Windows Mobile, and instead they keep running off with whatever half-baked idea came out of the R&D guys this week: air panels, tablets, smartphones, microtablets, and whatever silly idea they come up with next.

HP is whining because they've put out two loads of overpriced, unremarkable handhelds, and now they're getting pasted to the wall. Notice that the overall handheld market is up sharply, defying the predictions of doom. Dell is doing as well as ever, other manufacturers like Medion and Acer are doing great. I'm baffled by the persistence of this idea that handhelds are dead and EVERYTHING must be convergence. I've heard this before, you know. But the year was 1998, and it was TVs and computers which were supposed to be converging. There wasn't going to be such a thing as a disconnected TV anymore they said. It didn't happen, because the converged devices were more expensive and less reliable than seperate devices. That's not always the case in the mobile market, but predicting that convergence will take over the world is still a recipe for being very wrong.

Wiggster

03-02-2006, 11:55 PM

The traditional pen-based PDA market will evaporate within the next four years without significant product innovation, according to Hewlett-Packard (HP). The company will therefore continue to focus the majority of its handheld efforts on converged smart phone devices, relegating its traditional PDAs to the entry-level consumer and SMB markets.

Um, call me silly, but wouldn't it be HP's job to spur product innovation? I understand Microsoft needs to tweak the OS, but the hardeware is where the real innovation would lie. It seems like HP is trying to shift blame from themselves for the stagnant state of PDAs. PDA innovation should be coming from the device manufacturer, in my opinion.

shinysteve

03-03-2006, 12:04 AM

A few valid points there ADBrown but remember, its not total convergance thats killing the pocket pc, its migration. Total convergence cant happen because of physical limitations. Your PIM, Wifi, Navigation, mini-browsing are all going to the smartphone. All the development money is also being spent on smartphones.

If you dont have a smartphone then fine, a PPC has a big appeal. Thats exactly what I have as a setup. Most of my functionality is still on my PPC.
But if you do have a smartphone, then your PIM, comms, Navigation, mini-browser, Mp3's, camera, processor power are already (or will very soon) built-in and you will rarely need a PPC. (Of course there will be times...)
The carrypad/umpc/origami will just be a new segment for those that want the advantage of a decent video and browsing experience and a decent input mechanism for real-time IM, lengthy emails and document writing around the home, car and coffee shop. It will make a nice complementary device for a smartphone.

I personally doubt, like you, that origami will provide the perfect answer but it could stimulate some other manufacturers to give the carrypad segment some better products.

Regards
Steve

Myrddin

03-03-2006, 01:55 AM

The day I can't buy a nicely specced PDA without a phone combined with it is the day I abandon carrying "gadgets" and get an iPod and carry around a paper notepad.

I do not want or need a phone inside my device. I will never want or need a phone inside my device.

I'm going to hold on to my hx2755 as long as I can I think.

DaleReeck

03-03-2006, 02:22 AM

Unfortunately, the converged PDA market hasn't exactly been very innovative lately either. If I see one more QVGA, 64/128, wifi/bluetooth, EVDO/EDGE clone device, I'll flip. How many out there have those specs already? Like, all of them. "Innovative" to manufacturers now is throwing in GPS. Where's the VGA? Or funky things like HP's biometric scanner? The JasJar Universal was the only decently interesting thing to come out in the last two years and it was expensive as hell and had limited functionality in certain parts of the world (i.e., US and Canada).

Mark Johnson

03-03-2006, 03:12 AM

The incredibly lackluster releases of PPC hardware in the last year or two makes complete sense now. The OEM's have all been seeing NDA Origami prototypes and have recognized it will radically change the game.

The overwhelming majority of the world population that carries a cell phone are very likely to carry one device, a smartphone that does most, if not all, of what a PPC can do.

The "power freaks" like me who always will need more than a smartphone are going to carry a smartphone and an Origami, not a smartphone and a PPC. Having the top-of-the-line PPC (yesterday, today, or tomorrow) just can't free me from needing an XP unit with me when I'm out of the office. So a backpack is unavoidable, and always has been.

Until the last week when I started to see Origami, I was really mad at the OEMs. It felt like they had been "slacking" on me for two years and they had given up on the PPC platform. Now I understand. Microsoft all but told them the PPC was going to be end-of-lifed by Origami and the WindowsMobile technology shunted into smartphones.

Sure there will still be some WindowsMobile PDA's out, but by and large, the game is over and I for one am glad. The Origami will thrash the capabilites of the PPC and give me one LESS device to carry (I'll trade in my notebook which I carry everywhere and my PPC which I carry everywhere for ONE Origami device.)

The PPC is dead! Long live the PPC! (Reborn as the Origami that is!)

SteveHoward999

03-03-2006, 03:45 AM

I disagree. Origami is too big for portability for most of us.

I think great-specced phone/PDAs are going to come soon - the JasJatr won't be the last VGA phone.

Like many, I want to have a separate phone and PDA. Unfortunately I can see that my next phone will necessarily HAVE to be a PDA too, becuase it's pretty-well impossible to buy anything but a 'smart' phone. It's just a matter of deciding "How smart do you want it to be?"

But I'm not going to be happy if I cannot get a decent dedicated PDA too!!!!

msafi

03-03-2006, 03:57 AM

sprawlgeek

03-03-2006, 04:11 AM

ok...this topic is near to my thoughts today. I have been an PDAer since an old Casio Clamshell of the early days. Talk innovation? How about the ground-breaking Nino? or the original IPAQ 3600? HP destroyed the market with their acquistion of Compaq. I bought a 5500, didn't last a year. Bought the 4700. Its going back to the HP for repair for the 3rd time in one month after 8 months of...cough...cough...bliss..(all things are relative). Finally broke down this last week and bought the Dell X51V. So far so good, (although I am desperately missing the audio bluetooth profiles).

So why didn't I buy a convergence device? It was a simply question for me (althought I would really like someone to prove my thought process wrong) What happens if the bluetooth radio fails? the embedded wireless fails, the sd card fails..etc?? I ship it back for repair and then for X days, I have no Cell phone?? what am i missing here? I think the new form factor (Tablet clamshell style) is great! but... I don't see the killer combination...of features...when an OEM gets close(verizon) they are missing the something like a SD slot (I have WAY to much money invested in 12 gigs of SD cards for MP3's). Data connectivity via bluetooth with a s seperate handset seems to be my answer. Give me the tablet form factor, with something like an SD card plugable EDVO module so that I can still have a seperate cell phone to depend on....and by the way, will someone tell microsoft that the bluetooth keyboard HID is great in WM5 (damm time) but I have to trade off the audio profile??? ohh come on guys...

BTW, I even considered going back to pen and paper....Its sad when a geek can't find a form factor that jolts him into the "I GOTTA HAVE THAT".

Jason Lee

03-03-2006, 04:18 AM

If my ppc phone were to break i would take my sim card out and put it in my plain old phone. :D

pocketpcadmirer

03-03-2006, 04:25 AM

This is a mixed blessing, IMO. Well, the great power users yearn for non-phone editions and a bit less great :!: power users can go easy with converged handhelds. The main reason for them to switch solely to phone-editions is lack of commensurate sales though

Sunny :(

SteveHoward999

03-03-2006, 04:26 AM

SteveHoward,

if you had a phone that's smart enough for everyday PIM + multimedia, wouldn't it make sense to have a nonpocketable (jasjar size?) but ultraportable windows xp pc to go with it?

i know everyone's needs are different, but i think this combination can work for a lot of people.

A La OQO, Dualcor (http://www.dualcor.com/) and similar? For my work and lifestyle, absolutely! But I think these devices are going to remain tools for military, geeks, stupid but rich fashion freaks, busy businessmen with rich bosses or good expense accounts. They really are not for mainstream users who simply do not need that level of power on-the-go.

Mark Johnson

03-03-2006, 04:49 AM

...Unfortunately I can see that my next phone will necessarily HAVE to be a PDA too, becuase it's pretty-well impossible to buy anything but a 'smart' phone.

This is interesting. Just to play "devil's advocate" on this line of thought, assume it's a few years in the future and smartphones are so standard that your wireless carrier basically doesn't sell anything else anymore. So (as you said) you HAVE to have a smartphone. Assume it's a Windows Mobile unit so you can run any PPC apps on it you might like.

At that point, doesn't it seem more probable that you will find that most, if not all, of what you used a PPC for you can use your smartphone for? And if so, doesn't it seem more likely that you would carry the smartphone and a Origami device (which isn't really pocketable, but runs all desktop apps) than a PPC (which also isn't really pocketable since almost none of them since the 4155 have been, and only runs the same apps your phone already does) as you have in the past?

The PPC has been underpowered (can't run XP apps) and oversized (can't really fit in your pocket in current versions) so don't most of us find ourselves leaving the office with briefcase or backpack anyway?

SteveHoward999

03-03-2006, 05:06 AM

At that point, doesn't it seem more probable that you will find that most, if not all, of what you used a PPC for you can use your smartphone for?

Not unless the screen is at least as good as my E830. I don't want a stoopid little 2.5 inch QVGA screen, thanks! The E830 is perfectly pocketable for me.

And remember - there are times and places where I can not or will not take a phone ... or I can not or will not take a PDA. If I am somehow forced into having a smart phone/PDA combined then I have lost that choice.[/quote]

disconnected

03-03-2006, 05:34 AM

Up until now, I've been perfectly happy with a Pocket PC (currently an iPAQ 4700) and a bluetooth phone (Sprint). Now it seems I'll sooner or later be forced into convergence if only to be able to get an affordable high-speed data plan. Ideally, this should involve having a sim card and a cheap backup phone, but that's not an option with Sprint. I can live with a converged device, but voice calls are maybe two percent of my phone/PDA usage. I know I'm in the minority, but I really, really don't want to give up any of the best features of a stand-alone PDA -- I want a 4" VGA screen (3.5" at the very least), more RAM than my 4700 (GPS apps are really RAM hogs), 2 card slots (SD and CF or 2 SD), WiFi, and bluetooth. Built-in camera, GPS, USB host are nice but not essential for me. With the overwhelming majority of buyers apparently wanting the smallest device possible, it looks like soon there will be nothing left with a large enough screen for me to read.

Nurhisham Hussein

03-03-2006, 05:40 AM

At that point, doesn't it seem more probable that you will find that most, if not all, of what you used a PPC for you can use your smartphone for?

I don't agree with this statement - there are certain uses where the larger form factor is critical, text editing and diagramming to name two. Even the 2.8" screens we're getting with some devices is just too small.

And if so, doesn't it seem more likely that you would carry the smartphone and a Origami device (which isn't really pocketable, but runs all desktop apps) than a PPC (which also isn't really pocketable since almost none of them since the 4155 have been, and only runs the same apps your phone already does) as you have in the past?

My PDA is pocketable, and it's bigger than 22xx (which I also have) and 41xx - and I'm not the largest person around. I use my PDA a LOT - but I barely touch my phone and oddly enough, I only use my notebook at home or in the office - never on the go. I wouldn't mind a convergent device, as long as it has the same usability factor as my PDA gives me now - in short big enough to actually be useful. Would I like XP on the go? Sure - but see my remarks below.

The PPC has been underpowered (can't run XP apps) and oversized (can't really fit in your pocket in current versions) so don't most of us find ourselves leaving the office with briefcase or backpack anyway?

I've got a Sony Vaio U8G, which appears to be about the size of the Origami, and slightly bigger than the OQO. It's light, runs most desktop apps very well, and makes a nice laptop replacement. But it has deficiencies - while it's an ultraportable notebook, it's still not truly portable. To get the most out of it, you still need an external keyboard - one more thing to bring around. Battery life is really poor, with wifi on I'd be lucky to get a couple of hours, which means you really have to bring the power brick along as well. Third, it generates heat like you wouldn't believe - and I've heard the OQO is worse. Not to the point where it's not usable, but definitely uncomfortable. And I have my concerns about what this does to component life. So when the time comes for meetings, presentations or field trips, the Sony stays home and I use my PDA which is perfectly adequate for most tasks. In point of fact, the only real use I find a XP machine for these days (and the only reason I got a notebook in the first place) is heavy duty statistical analysis. Unless they resolve these three issues with regard to handtops - smooth input options, battery life, and heat - I'll stick to my dinosaur PDA for my everyday use, thanks.

SteveHoward999

03-03-2006, 05:44 AM

With all this support for high-end PDAs on this and other similar threads ... are the marketing guys actualy scr$wing the market for all of us by killing PDAs like the 4700 and the E830?

ADBrown

03-03-2006, 06:01 AM

Total convergence cant happen because of physical limitations. Your PIM, Wifi, Navigation, mini-browsing are all going to the smartphone. All the development money is also being spent on smartphones.

Not really. Smartphones are only a small fraction of the overall market. Even if you included the cellular data devices, you're still only talking about part of the market. The supposed dominance of "smartphone" devices is mythical.

a decent input mechanism for real-time IM, lengthy emails and document writing around the home, car and coffee shop.

What mechanism is that? I, like a great many people, input text fastest through a keyboard. I've done it that way so long that my handwriting is barely legible. If I wanted to use an "Origami," I'd also have to pack a folding keyboard, which is yet another thing to carry/charge/connect/etcetera.

I personally doubt, like you, that origami will provide the perfect answer but it could stimulate some other manufacturers to give the carrypad segment some better products.

Historically, there has been no significant market for devices between the size of a handheld and a notebook. The tablet PC market is barely hanging on, let alone trying to push minitablets as a replacement for everything else.

The incredibly lackluster releases of PPC hardware in the last year or two makes complete sense now. The OEM's have all been seeing NDA Origami prototypes and have recognized it will radically change the game.

Not really. These things are WAY too large to carry around comfortably. Imagine something the size of a large hardcover novel, and weighing between one and two pounds. How would you carry it? A bag? Then why not bring a laptop and have a keyboard too? The Origami devices are going to end up being too small and awkward to completely replace a laptop. Trust me, I know this. I've already had the "pleasure" of playing with two seperate minitablets, the Vaio U50 and the OQO. They both sucked.

This is an attempt to fix what's not broken. There's no reason that people can't choose to carry a smartphone, and/or Pocket PC, and/or laptop according to what they need. Sure, there's some people who this might suit well, but given the availability of small and light laptops, this isn't going to catch on in force, nor is it going to replace the smaller and lighter Pocket PCs.

I love owning a Swiss Army knife, but I don't try to use it for cooking dinner. Nor do I try to use my lawnmower as a snowblower. Some things demand proper tools, not one-size-fits-no-one.

The Origami will thrash the capabilites of the PPC and give me one LESS device to carry (I'll trade in my notebook which I carry everywhere and my PPC which I carry everywhere for ONE Origami device.)

Good luck, but you're going to be disappointed. Mini PCs are a tech that is not ready for the big time.

With all this support for high-end PDAs on this and other similar threads ... are the marketing guys actualy scr$wing the market for all of us by killing PDAs like the 4700 and the E830?

The marketing guys are screwing something, but it's not neccessarily us. I feel confidant that these devices are going to bomb, and bomb badly. I just hope that manufacturers don't bite into this BS hype being spun by Microsoft and Intel. If you ever picked one company which did NOT have a solid track record for predicting the next wave and adapting to it, it's Microsoft.

Nurhisham Hussein

03-03-2006, 08:02 AM

What mechanism is that? I, like a great many people, input text fastest through a keyboard. I've done it that way so long that my handwriting is barely legible. If I wanted to use an "Origami," I'd also have to pack a folding keyboard, which is yet another thing to carry/charge/connect/etcetera.

My sentiments exactly. And the Sony's folding keyboard is terrible - I'm Asian and have small fingers, but I find that keyboard way too small for me to type comfortably despite the fact that it's almost the same size as the U.

Not really. These things are WAY too large to carry around comfortably. Imagine something the size of a large hardcover novel, and weighing between one and two pounds. How would you carry it? A bag? Then why not bring a laptop and have a keyboard too? The Origami devices are going to end up being too small and awkward to completely replace a laptop. Trust me, I know this. I've already had the "pleasure" of playing with two seperate minitablets, the Vaio U50 and the OQO. They both sucked.

While I won't say the Sony "sucks", I absolutely agree about portability being largely an illusion.

Good luck, but you're going to be disappointed. Mini PCs are a tech that is not ready for the big time.

See my previous post for my thoughts on this.

shinysteve

03-03-2006, 08:55 AM

Nurhisham Hussein

03-03-2006, 09:17 AM

shinysteve

03-03-2006, 09:35 AM

Nurhisham Hussein

03-03-2006, 10:09 AM

Hi hishamh.

Yes I was aware that not everywhere gets subsidies. Is the turnaround/lifespan of mobile phones slower becuase of that? What do you think?

I can only speak from my own experience, but typically I think the turnaround is even faster, even though the phones are generally more expensive - there's nothing to tie you to a particular contract or carrier, so jumping carriers is pretty frequent depending on who's offering the lowest rates and packages. There's a proposal currently being negotiated between the Malaysian government and the local carriers where you get to keep your number, whichever carrier you're with. That would make jumping around even easier.

I few people I know have multiple lines and phones - my boss carries two.

I really need to learn more about the asian market. Penetration and subsidies. Lifespan of mobiles etc. Have you got any pointers?

Regards
Steve

Penetration is very high - my Indonesian maid's got one for crying out loud :D and she's on minimum wage. There was a brouhaha here a while ago, because the government temporarily lifted the ban on mobile phones in primary schools (what you'd call elementary level). They clamped down again after the teachers union complained. At a guess, I'd say for the typical city worker, mobile phone turnover is about a year, maybe less. They're as much fashion accessories as much as anything else. The O2 XDA Mini (HTC Magician) was terribly popular here last year - mainly because it looked cool. Now a lot of these mini owners are moving on to the Atom and Dopod 818 and 838.

I'm really an exception - I've never changed carriers, and been with the same one for over ten years now. In that time, I've bought exactly two phones, and the only reason I bought the second one was because it had bluetooth.

k_kirk

03-03-2006, 10:33 AM

I really like the converged device notion and have been a user of them since the very first XDA.

One thing that bothers me the most is that none of them have as good phone reception as a regular purpose built mobile phone. There is always a compromise.

The other piece is the general lack of functionalities which are now common place in regular phones. ie profile management. I'd like to see more OEMs buying and integrating solutions like PocketZenPhone or alternatives so beginner users have a richer experience out the box...

alese

03-03-2006, 10:55 AM

I have used two devices, when I had my iPaq 3870 and T68i, but I fail to see why would this be a good sollution - you either have to sync two machines with outlook or type phone numbers into phone from PDA?
Also why carry 2 devices if you use PDA for mostly PIM stuff.
At least for me smartphone or Phone Edition is the way to go for PDA/PIM.
What is left then is "only" hi resolution browsing, Video multimedia stuff and some more serious computer work (text processing, excel, presentations...) which can be done on high end VGA PDA, but it is not particularry enjoyable.
An ultra small tablet would be much better for that, so for me I would love to have Origami for $500 - that would be exactly what I need - not to replace my PDA for PIM stuff (my phone did that) but to replace my PDA for more advanced stuff that I can't do very well now.

palur

03-03-2006, 12:45 PM

shinysteve

03-03-2006, 01:43 PM

Small screen PDAs will lead to more dependence on laptops for viewing larger excel and graphs etc. I felt that 4" screen PDA with VGA and CF+SD slot was perfect. If a converged device comes out with these aspects, it would suit all my needs and need not bother about going for a laptop.

a 4" screen with 640x480 res. Isnt that annoying with web page re-formatting?
800x640 is my entry level for browsing.

Cheers
Steve.

alese

03-03-2006, 02:08 PM

a 4" screen with 640x480 res. Isnt that annoying with web page re-formatting?
800x640 is my entry level for browsing.

I use Universal with VGA 3.7" screen and while it's not perfect it's doable. And web page re-formating is not really an issue if you are using Opera.

But, it would be better to have better resolution and bigger screen and having full featured desktop browser also would not hurt.

marathon332

03-03-2006, 02:34 PM

The great thing about converged PDA's is the connectivity they provide. The Internet is the killer app. Any computer without the Internet is only half a computer. No email and no surfing is dull and unproductive. (IMHO)

We're in a phase of mass adoption of free wireless (WiFi) in major urban centers of the world. It's just a question of time before you'll be able to connect almost anywhere without having to use a phone carrier.

Under these circumstances, a PDA with Skype for Pocket PC becomes a phone. It works great on my Dell X50v and I'm hoping that within a year or two I'll be able to roam the world and connect anywhere I want at no or low cost.

When that day comes, I'm betting that there will a surge in PDA sales because the cost of ownership and operation will be low and the ability to stay connected online will be very attractive to both consumers and businesses.

--Steve

shinysteve

03-03-2006, 03:14 PM

Good point.
But I also see that in two years, smartphones will have Wifi and enough processing power to run sip client or skype. New E series from Nokia already have the Wifi and Sip client built in!!!

Steve.

jgrnt1

03-03-2006, 04:27 PM

What we need to remember is that we (PPCT readers) are not the typical end users of many of these devices. Though I don't like converged devices, for many, they're adding simple computing power to their phones and are in hog heaven. For some power users, this is also great, because all the basics (calendar, tasks, email, etc.) are available and there is one less device (PDA) to carry around.

I don't know if the Origami project will find more than a niche market, but I think I fit the niche. I use my iPAQ 4700 for much more than a PDA is really designed for. Almost all the books I read are ebooks (Mobipocket). The text is crystal clear, but I'd love to be able to display more on the screen. I view PowerPoint decks, Excel spreadsheets and pdf files all the time. I also use it for GPS. Even with a 4 inch screen, it's often not a pleasant experience, except for the GPS, which is fine. Currently, the only alternative is to pull out my laptop, wait for XP to boot, log in, open whatever I need, close it, wait for XP to shut down, put the laptop away. I have many spreadsheets with extensive macros that won't run on the 4700 at all, so the laptop comes out much more often than is comfortable. I already carry my PDA in a 5.5"x7.5"x1.5" binder, so an ultraportable in a case wouldn't be any larger. Taking notes on a 4 inch screen isn't a lot of fun, either, so I have a small notepad in my binder.

If an ultraportable can let me view all my necessary files on a relatively comfortably sized screen, read books on a paperback sized screen, let me take notes and possibly have GPS built-in, I'll drop my PDA and GPS module and have one less item to carry. If it can be "instant on" as I read in one rumor, that's even better.

Again, I'm sure I'm not the typical "person-on-the-street" (or the corporate user who needs email) for whom many of the converged devices are designed. I don't like that PDAs are going away, because I need even more functionality, not less. Size is not the important issue for me. However, from a business sense, I think converged devices are the future, because the market for them is much bigger than for PDAs. Many "average" people will never buy a PDA, because it's another device to carry and they would have to "learn to use a computer." Give them much of the functionality in their phone, though, and they will be happy. Many still won't learn to use it, but they will be happy none-the-less.

DarkHelmet

03-03-2006, 07:35 PM

With all this support for high-end PDAs on this and other similar threads ... are the marketing guys actualy scr$wing the market for all of us by killing PDAs like the 4700 and the E830?

Yes - and over at Dell, it's the same story for the Axim x50/51v line too!

03-03-2006, 09:22 PM

I guess that HP has to create devices that will sell, and it looks like the converged devices are 'where the money is'. Personally the 4705 is the most perfect PPC ever for me and for the first time I am afraid that when the time comes to upgrade there won't be a product that equals, much less surpasses the current model. Sometimes I really need to have a separate phone - I would never take a PPC horseback riding or sailing! - and I want the largest, clearset screen in a PPC-style form factor. Putting them together just doesn't work, and compromising the screen size and resolution would be a poor trade. I'm considering buying a backup 4705 just in case...

ADBrown

03-03-2006, 11:35 PM

You didnt define 'market' but in general I dont agree. Returns are made very quickly by carriers through smartphone developments and addition of new 'functionality' because of the very quick turnover of hardware created by the carrier subsidies, short contracts and competitive markets.

I honestly do not understand what you're trying to say. Cell phone turnover has nothing to do with the fact that smartphone sales are simply not the entire mobile computing market.

Exactly, keyboard is needed. Who said that the Origami doesnt have a keyboard? If it doesn't, it will miss a trick.

The photos show a device that requires a docking station to have a keyboard. And Microsoft of late has had an obsession with keyboard-less tablet devices.

At any rate, if it had a keyboard, how would it be that different than one of those ultra-light convertible notebooks like the Thinkpad X40?

I agree that the PPC will become a niche product and get little developemnt funding becuase of smartphones. A gap will form in the market for a 'money saving', 'lifestyle' or 'converged' multifunction device.

But they're not money-saving. They're probably going to be at least $800, which is more than any handheld and most laptops. They might even be more expensive--comparable devices are in the range of $2000 to $3000. Not everyone has that kind of disposable cash, particularly for a device which doesn't neccessarily do anything better than a $200 handheld, or a Nokia internet tablet, or whatever.

If the mini-tablets dont come to market now, the market will become over segmented with dedicated Navigation units, Video players, Video phones, Browsing tablets.

The market is already segmented, but not overly, because there's no one-size-fits-all solution for mobile devices.

Now is a good time to start introducing the idea. Its not going to be the next ipod success but its a big enough market to warrant some marketing effort and maybe a set of new products.

There have been attempts to break into this market before. The by and large of it is that there isn't a significant demand for these sorts of devices, because they're too large to be portable, and too small to accomodate the kind of features and usability people expect out of a real PC.

Tye

03-04-2006, 06:32 AM

Converged devices still scare me. The Jamin is almost tempting but lacks some of what I have come to consider requirements.
After using my 4700 for the last year and a half, I never want to go back to QVGA. The 4" screen is great for my bad eyes.
My ideal converged device would be a VGA 3.5" or 4" screen with no keyboard or keys on the front to increase size. The entire device would be just big enough to fit the large screen. Give me that, and I would consider a converged device. Until then, I will stick to BT and two devices. :(

Stik

03-04-2006, 02:24 PM

HP Says No to Non-Converged Handheld Devices

HP: Pen-based PDA market on death bed

Wow, anything to sell a story! :lol:

What I took away from the ' story ' was, "There's still a market... it's small, but it's still there," See said, citing "entry-level PDA" buyers and SMBs ( small-medium business )as the primary sources of demand for the sector.

"We are still committed to the pen-based classic PDA product segment... although it's not growing."

I wonder why its not growing Mr. See? Could it be HP's total lack of marketing in the consumer space of the market?

Could it be HP's lack of innovation in its current offerings?

Could it be the lack of PDA growth this past year due in large measure to the frequency of changes to Pocket PC platforms (and the length of time required to complete the changes) that have delayed enterprise deployments?

( the last question comes from a statement made to me from someone that works in the handheld market industry w/ HP, Dell, Palm and others )

PDA's are dead? Very doubtful when it comes to enterprise usage, just ask Casio. I wish there were statistics that divided PPC units sold to consumers ( which IS shrinking, thanks to less than adequete marketing of products ) in comparison to units sold to business, which I believe is growing in thanks to Strategic Vertical Integrators of these same devices.

No way to validate that statement however.

This whole thing reminds me of this same crock of inflammatory hogwash that was making the rounds for years since inception ...

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20031013S0040

Bluetooth is dead also, correct? Yeah, right. :roll: :mrgreen:

RobertCF

03-04-2006, 07:23 PM

The classic "wag the dog" play by HP. They don't realize there are a LOT of us who don't have cell phones...have no USE for the WASTE of money in cell phones. I like the power and versatility I have in my standard PDA. I like the physical dimensions, I like the size of the screen, I like NOT being FORCED to carry a stupid thumboard or popout keyboard around. I like being able to use cards to augment the functionality of my PDA or NOT and paying a very acceptable price for the unit.

I have yet to see a converged device that wasn't junk, too small of a screen, too high priced and a waste of money. I want as large a screen as I can possibly get in a device that's still easily portable. Stupid junk like PSPs, Origamis and iPods are ridiculous. I have my PDA. It does all my word processing, e-mail, spreadsheet, appointments, multimedia entertainment in one, small, inexpensive device. I don't get bothered by phone calls (I get extremely angry watching all these lemmings whipping out their cellphones on the airplane because they actually think they are IMPORTANT).

So, HP, just go ahead. You'll never see my waste my money on your bloated, overpriced, toy junk.

leek

03-05-2006, 08:01 AM

I welcome converged devices, as long as they do not compromise on features. Unfortunately, that is what is happening.

I've searched for months for an ideal internet-capable PocketPC phone (whether based on Windows Mobile or not), and I have not found one.

My SX66 (HTC Blue Angel) is still the best thing around. The only thing which comes close, is the HTC Universal, but it is not worth upgrading to, because of its steep price, immature software, and slower performance.

All of the new devices which have come out in the last year or so, have two disturbing trends:

Screen size is being made smaller. This hurts PPC functionality. It does not represent "convergence", since it destroys one of the key features. A 2.8" screen is not enough to do web browsing except on rare occasions.

I do not want to carry a laptop around with me. If it can't fit in a coat pocket, it's too large.

Performance and expandability are being sacrificed in order to cut costs and power consumption. Witness how RAM is shrinking from 128 MB to 64 MB in most devices, as WM2005 starts to replace RAM with flash as the program storage area. Performance suffers because flash is slower than RAM. And clock speeds are stagnating.

But this is not necessary -- with 3550 mAh batteries which make the unit not much bigger (it still fits in my pocket), my SX66 can operate for 12 hours as a backlit PDA, longer than any laptop or tablet I've ever seen. Sure, the battery costs $120, but it is worth every penny.

HP's "converged" devices have been junk. Remember the h6315 paperweight recalls. Their devices have "just enough" features to look good on paper, but their usability sucks and they are not easily expanded. They become obsolete quickly. Other manufacturers' devices are moving in that direction.

I want a GSM PDA phone with 3.5-4.5" screen, WiFi, BT, EDGE, 128 MB RAM, SDIO. So far no device has all these features. The Blue Angel and Universal come close, but lack EDGE.

alese

03-05-2006, 11:17 AM

...All of the new devices which have come out in the last year or so, have two disturbing trends:

Screen size is being made smaller. This hurts PPC functionality. It does not represent "convergence", since it destroys one of the key features. A 2.8" screen is not enough to do web browsing except on rare occasions.

I do not want to carry a laptop around with me. If it can't fit in a coat pocket, it's too large.

Performance and expandability are being sacrificed in order to cut costs and power consumption. Witness how RAM is shrinking from 128 MB to 64 MB in most devices, as WM2005 starts to replace RAM with flash as the program storage area. Performance suffers because flash is slower than RAM. And clock speeds are stagnating.

But this is not necessary -- with 3550 mAh batteries which make the unit not much bigger (it still fits in my pocket), my SX66 can operate for 12 hours as a backlit PDA, longer than any laptop or tablet I've ever seen. Sure, the battery costs $120, but it is worth every penny. ...

Did you tried to use device with 2.8 screen? The only thing 3.5 has, is bigger size and bigger pixels - there is no difference in actual experience since the resolution is the same.
Also my Wizard has excelent battery life, without huge $120 battery and because of it's small size I can take it anywhere without inconvenience.

disconnected

03-06-2006, 05:10 PM

Kind of off-topic, but is there a technical reason that CDMA phones (at least in the US, don't know about anywhere else) don't use SIM cards? It would be so convenient to just buy multiple phones/PDAs and carry whatever is most convenient for a given occasion without paying cellular fees for each separate device.

ADBrown

03-06-2006, 10:16 PM

Did you tried to use device with 2.8 screen? The only thing 3.5 has, is bigger size and bigger pixels - there is no difference in actual experience since the resolution is the same.

Sometimes, size matters. It's not just the sheer resolution--though I dare you to find me a 2.8" VGA screen--but also the size of the area you have to display things. On my Axim, with a 3.7" screen, I can produce text that, while legible, is smaller than would be comfortable to read.

Kind of off-topic, but is there a technical reason that CDMA phones (at least in the US, don't know about anywhere else) don't use SIM cards? It would be so convenient to just buy multiple phones/PDAs and carry whatever is most convenient for a given occasion without paying cellular fees for each separate device.

Because the carriers here don't want it. It's more profitable to require people to buy your approved devices, pay more for multiple lines, lock customers to your service...

alese

03-07-2006, 12:03 PM

Did you tried to use device with 2.8 screen? The only thing 3.5 has, is bigger size and bigger pixels - there is no difference in actual experience since the resolution is the same.

Sometimes, size matters. It's not just the sheer resolution--though I dare you to find me a 2.8" VGA screen--but also the size of the area you have to display things. On my Axim, with a 3.7" screen, I can produce text that, while legible, is smaller than would be comfortable to read.

If we are talking about VGA resolution, then you are quite right. Although there are 2.8" and even smaller VGA screens, I doubt they would be of much use on PPCs in terms of amount of information displayed.
My reply was ment for QVGA screen, which is perfectly fine in 2.8".

pdhirst1978

03-09-2006, 11:31 AM

I've used pda and seperate phone combo for about 5 years now.

I have had many phones (some of them pda wanabes)

but only 2 pda's

HP jornanda 540 - my intro to pda's, it was underpowered and outdated by the time I got it but it was cheap £120 from the carphone warehouse

I quickly updated to a HP IPAQ 2220 - this had the power and the expansion slots.

2 years ago I thought I might upgrade but to this day I still haven’t. Reason: What’s the point? What wont work on my 2220? its got a 400mhz processor and 64MB ram therefore it plays converted videos, all the games/app's out on the market. I added wifi via a compact flash card for £40. I have all the storage this pda needs with a 1GB sd card.

There has been no innovation in the pda market because there is no drive for it. Market leaders are happy giving us little upgrades, slightly bigger screen, slide out keyboard, built in wifi ect just to keep devices looking new.

The best innovation for the pda market was made by palm with its life drive and that’s only a embedded microdrive.

PDA's need to absorb the other gadgets (not phones) in your bag.

IPOD
I could by a bolt on battery pack for the IPAQ 2200 and give it 3 times as much battery life - in my experience that would be 9 hours of video - 22 hours of audio with screen turned off when not in use.

LAPTOP
There is a device on the market that beams a keyboard onto any surface and picks up keystrokes via infrared beams, allowing you to have a full size keyboard anywhere.
Bundle this with full versions of Microsoft office products on your pda (ok not all the office products but excel without macro support - come on bill what were you thinking)
and the laptop can be left behind on 50% of excursions.

CAMERA
Some pda's come with built in cameras but lets be fair there poor, 2megapixles 2x optical zoom and a proper flash (not a photo-light) and you can throw the funsnap cameras in the bin.

TV OUT
With the above taken care of been able to output your pda to a tv would give you a portable video player, imagine hooking it up at hotel and writing that report up on a 14" screen increasing the resolution to 800X600 would cover size issues TV's don’t have a great resolution anyway(I think its 576x480).

You will notice there isn’t a entry for phone. I don’t think using you PDA as a phone is a good thing. Having 3G data capability would be nice built in, but using a pda for voice is not the best experience I have tried it didn’t like it (borrowed a mates xdaII for a week). I take my phone everywhere - on the bus, to the shops, when I go biking, out clubbing ect. It needs to be small and discreet and replaceable if I drop my phone in a pint while out boozing or it bounces down road when I am out biking its not the end of the world I just have to use a spare phone till my contract runs out and I get another. A £400 pda replacement is going to seriously impact finances, and I don’t think the HP jornanda 540 I have at home would even function as a spare.

The PDA manufacturers need to look at taking decent chunks out of other markets and leave the phone market alone.

leek

03-12-2006, 06:55 AM

Did you tried to use device with 2.8 screen?

Yes. I did not like it. It was not totally unusable, but the screen was too small for everyday use.

The only thing 3.5 has, is bigger size and bigger pixels - there is no difference in actual experience since the resolution is the same.

I disagree. 2.8" is too small at any resolution, even SVGA.

Also my Wizard has excelent battery life, without huge $120 battery and because of it's small size I can take it anywhere without inconvenience.

I can take my BA anywhere despite the battery and it's not inconvenient. It fits in my pocket and I don't need to remove it to bend down or anything.

My reply was ment for QVGA screen, which is perfectly fine in 2.8".

I disagree. Try running unix commands, or using emacs, on a 2.8" screen. Try handwriting recognition programs. Not impossible, but not worth it. Too cramped to use a stylus comfortably, and too small a font to read pure text without eyestrain. Hard to hold in your palm, without your fingers getting tired holding it by the sides.

I have seen the Wizard's screen. I've used one. The stylus sucks, being telescoping and bottom-mounted.

I only wish I had a PDA phone with the Wizard's dot pitch and the Axim's screen size. That leaves only the Universal, with VGA. The Universal can fit in my pocket too.

Resolution is important, but so is screen size. When screen size is below 3.2" or so, or when resolution is below QVGA, then it becomes unusable for my needs.

Why aren't wristwatch TVs all over the place? Why are projection TVs, many with resolutions less than VGA, so popular?

Because size matters.

PocketPCs and smartphones need to converge, but this does not mean screen size (which PPCs are better at) should be smaller, or that connectivity options (which smartphones are better at) should be reduced. We need the best of both worlds.