why are ebooks so expensive?

[devoncatt]

Why are ebooks so expensive? There are no printing costs, no storage costs, no shipping costs, no returns. So why aren't they half the price of printed books? You can't resell them - or I don't know of a market for them.
8O
I know there are admin costs, royalties, profit, etc. I am curious why they charge so much- New hardbacks are the same cost in ebooks. Do they not really want to sell them or is it just they make more money?
Devoncatt

[Nurhisham Hussein]

You, me and everyone on this board have been wondering the same thing.

[hamishmacdonald]

One of the reasons you cited is probably exactly why the publishers/distributors keep the price up: no returns.

After a travelling jaunt several years ago, I worked in a book warehouse and learned some strangely unique features about the sale of books:

- A book is sold to a store.
- If the book doesn't sell, the store can return it. (Sometimes just to be re-ordered with a new movie tie-in cover.)
- The returned, or "remaindered", books can then be re-sold to other stores like Wal-Mart for display on discount sale tables. (We actually packed them by weight, not topic, to distribute them to Wal-Mart, where one morning I heard the dread company song. Even the legions of Saruman weren't required to sing. At least I think it was a song. My memory is a bit fuzzy about the event, and I find that suspicious.)
- If the remaindered book still didn't move, the retailer could then return it to the distributor who would "pulp" it -- put it through a grinder and reduce it to fluff. That wood-pulp was then sold to be turned into other products. Who knows, you may be blowing your nose with Tolstoy!

So a book has three chances to make money for the publisher. An e-book just has one. And that sale has got to not only pay for the publisher's operation costs and the author's royalties, it also has to cover the expense of all those mid-list books that they've commissioned and taken a loss on (paying author advances, etc).

I guess this is a function of e-books coming from traditional publishers, who are thinking about them in terms of physical book models and rationalising the costs against the rest of their business. A mate I knew back in Toronto, Cory Doctorow (www.craphound.com), releases his books for free with the blessing of his publisher, who have found that electronic downloads actually increase the number of paper copies they sell.

[Don't Panic!]

While not free www.baen.com has experienced the same type of thing as Cory Doctrow's publishers. The free ebooks they release in their free library have definitely led to increased sales of the paperback version. Log on to the Baen Free Library (www.baen.com/library) to find out more.

[ADBrown]

One of the reasons you cited is probably exactly why the publishers/distributors keep the price up: no returns.

While this is true, it doesn't justify their pricing. The resale and reresale of paper books is done to recoup costs of printing. There's no cost, or rather very little cost, in reproducing a paperless book. Unless you've done something foolish like pay an extravagant amount for an ebook service from Adobe or Microsoft or the like, reproduction costs for an ebook are a few fractions of a penny of bandwidth, and the amortized costs of setup.

The reality is that ebook prices are artificially inflated by the publishers. There's no good reason why an ebook needs to be priced over $1, except that it would make the price of paper books look bad in comparison. Over the last few years, publishers have been increasingly taken over by conglomerate interests which want higher and higher profits. The publishing industry traditionally has never been a high-profit venture, so corners had to be cut. Book prices were raised. A book from a big-name author that once cost $25 in hardcover and $7 in paper now costs $35 in hardcover and $11 in paper, with little or no increase in the amount of money going to the author. Publishers take fewer chances on unconventional or unknown authors, preferring to accept the predictable sales of basic genre work.

Contract authors were brought in to write new books in established universes to try and capitalize on the names: The Godfather, Star Trek, Star Wars, Dirk Pitt, and I'm sure others that I don't know about. In some of these cases, what would have been one large novel is split into two anemic 200 page booklets, which are both sold at full price.

Another recent trend is oversize books, taller than the standard paperback, which are billed as being easier to read: lies. It's done because it means more text on each page, fewer pages in the book, and thus cheaper to print. And on top of that, they charge more money for these books. Disgusting.

The default explanation of the rise in the price of books, as told by the publishing industry, is "distribution costs." It's a bogus argument, as distribution costs do not increase the price of a book from $5 a little over a decade ago to $8, sometimes $10 today. But it's their shield against criticism, and it allows them to obfuscate and counter arguments to death.

Ebooks, for all intents and purposes, don't have distribution costs. There's no paper involved, no shipping, no markup. So there's no reason not to price them reasonably, but it's still not done. Why? Because it shows that paper is overpriced. If everyone were offered the option of a brand new bestseller as either a $35 hardcover or a $2 ebook, which do you think most people would take? Ask a publishing company rep why ebooks are so expensive, and their response will almost certainly be the lame statement that ebooks are a luxury item that need extensive support. It's untrue, and is little more than a cover for the fact that they're protecting their profit margins. They could make a quite healthy profit off reasonably priced ebooks, but that could start a revolution that would undermine their dead tree sales, and they'd sooner choke to death on their own tongues than let that happen. Companies like that fear change, because it puts their six-month profit forecast in doubt, and that's all they ever care about.

It's like the music industry: they could make quite a bit of money selling music for $.25 a song online, but they prefer to keep selling $18 CDs with one good track. The big difference is that publishers haven't gotten hit yet, because ebooks have been slower on the rise than digital music. So they're doing whatever they can--DRM, exhorbitant prices, schemes of all kinds--to prevent ebooks from becoming widely accepted, because if they are, it means the death of the current business model.

I do believe I am now bleeding from the fingertips, so rant over.

[Nurhisham Hussein]

And a very good rant it was, too :D

[Don't Panic!]

Well you can get individual books from baen for $5. I think that's fair for a couple of days reading.

[pocketpcadmirer]

Well you can get individual books from baen for $5. I think that's fair for a couple of days reading.

Fully Agreed :D

Sunny

[Jorgen]

ADBrown, excellent!

Well you can get individual books from baen for $5. I think that's fair for a couple of days reading.

Not really. Baen's price is only "fair" because other publishers charge more.

Jorgen

[Don't Panic!]

You think $5 isn't reasonable? Paperbacks are at $7.99 around my area. What do you have against authors making a living? :cry:

Anyway Baen's webscription program gets you up to 6 books ((Usually 5) for $15.

pm me a valid e-mail Jorgen and the next time I get one I'll send you an offer for a free month. All you have to do is register which is free.

[Jorgen]

I would like that both the publisher and the author get their fair share. But like ADBrown, I have a feeling that $5 is far too much and I am sure that the author is not getting her/his fair share (unless perhaps his surname is King or Clancy). What I am objecting against is that the price of an ebook is not calculated from the costs of producing an ebook, but calculated relative to what they charge for a paperbook.

Quite another thing is that there probably is a psychological barrier at $5 and the price will probably not get under this.

Compared to other publishers, Baen is undoubtedly good value for money.

Jorgen

[Steve Jordan]

Perhaps when (or IF) publishers start looking at e-books as a way to improve popularity and augment sales, instead of as competition, they will start to lower prices to a more reasonable level.

I think the inevitable success of e-books is going to force them to rethink their present business, pricing and distribution models, which is something they'd rather not do. It only means more pain for them (and us) when they are eventually forced to face facts.

In the meantime, we can do our best to influence the market from within and without, through buying decisions, and by example (insert shameless plug for my website HERE (http://www.stevejordanbooks.com)). The best part about the e-book revolution is that you can sell books without a traditional publisher. As more people accept that and buy from non-traditional sources, more authors will move to non-traditional methods. The snowball rolls, and grows, from there.

[Jorgen]

The best part about the e-book revolution is that you can sell books without a traditional publisher.

How about a group of writers publishing ebooks and (possibly) print-on-demand? Members/ doing administative work should receive some compensation, but since the risk element of doing business / backing the wrong writer is close to non-existent, costs can be kept at a minimum.

If print-on-demand has its own problems, a success in ebooks would be a good background for farming that part of the business out to someone else.

Jorgen

[Steve Jordan]

A quick comment on Print-on-Demand: I'm cool with the concept, but I always thought it made more sense to leave the printing up to the purchaser (ie, PDF files, etc). That keeps the author's costs down.

But self-binding options are slim out there. True, traditional PoD makes for a better product, something you can actually put on a bookshelf and not be ridiculed about. I've been trying to crack that nut for years, creating a PDF (or other) product that anyone could take to their local copy shop and have printed and nicely bound. (I emphasize the word "nicely" here. Not GBC binding of 8.5x11" pages.)

[CoreyJF]

I do think POD and Vanity presses have there place. However, from my experience most POD and/or Vanity presses don’t produce quality fiction. There are a few exceptions that make this rule, but there is a reason the majority of these books were not accepted by traditional presses.

While I do think some ebook prices are artificially inflated, pricing is a complicated issue. I think part of it should be in terms of release date. Yesterday I picked up two books at B&N, a paperback and a Hardcover. The paperback was 7.99 and the hardback was almost 30. When you are buying a hardcover you are paying for the option of getting it first. It does not cost 20+ dollars more to print a hard over then it does a paperback. Yes, I know there are plenty of straight to paperback novels, but Hardcovers are publisher’s flagships, usually something they feel is worth investing in. There is also substantial marketing cost that really hasn’t been discussed. Investments need to be recouped. Not just for marketing, but editing, legal fees, author advances and royalties, and everything else that goes into publishing a book.

While Ebook publishing is certainly less expensive then traditional publishing, there is also the inherit risk and cost associated with piracy in digital format. It is a sad fact of many industries that consumers must pay for the theft and fraud of others.

Price can’t be considered in a vacuum. Anyone who seriously expects to pay less then a paperback for a new release is missing what goes into writing and publishing a novel.

[Steve Jordan]

While Ebook publishing is certainly less expensive then traditional publishing, there is also the inherit risk and cost associated with piracy in digital format. It is a sad fact of many industries that consumers must pay for the theft and fraud of others.

True, but applying reasonable DRM--say, tying a buyer's credit card number to an e-book--is relatively easy and inexpensive. It would cost me little in time and effort to do so. The only reason I don't, is to demonstrate some trust in my buyers, and make it easier for them to read the books. If it turns out that my little theory is naive and unrealistic, I'll start applying DRM to everything that goes out, for no additional cost.

Whatever your product or format, theft is a risk. Best we can do is take reasonable steps to mitigate that risk. And some loss you simply accept as the price of doing business.

[CoreyJF]

I know there are inexpensive and even some open source DRM solutions, but I do not believe any of them are a true deterrent to piracy to anyone other then the causal offender. The cost I am referring to is not the DRM, but the loss in revenue due to theft. When I finish reading those two books, I will give them to my wife to read and maybe lend them to a friend. In digital format one person can lend millions of copies almost instantly. As you said it is "the price of doing business" and just like every other business, it is not surprising that the cost is passed on to the consumer. So while some components of publishing costs for ebooks are indeed cheaper then then print, there are other less obvious factors that do and will shape pricing.

[Jorgen]

Theft and fraud is more likely to happen when the price is considered a rip-off. The publishers will have to be more open as to how they get to their prices if they want to argue their prices are reasonable (or at least "not unreasonable").

Quite another thing is: how much do the publishers lose on pirated books? Reading a book takes some effort (unlike passive entertainment) and people in general don't actually read many books. If there are as many illegal copies of ebooks out there as is claimed (and there probably is): I would think most offenders are just collecting the books because the books are freely available. I doubt they actually read many of them. The publishers are really only suffering losses equal to the amount of books that people would have bought if they hadn't come across pirated copies.

I still claim that the ebook prices are a rip-off, especially if protected by DRM as the DRM is likely to one day prevent you from reading the books.

Jorgen

[dMores]

i was helping out my girlfriend with her master's thesis (it's about digital literature, including but not exclusively ebooks), and when harry potter 6 was released, i was "told" (google) to check out IRC.
so i found a channel where HP6 was being released in, and while i was reading the chat, i noticed there were a huge number of book requests going on.
actually, there was no "chat" at all, only book requests. i would say around 2 per second.

that is a whole lot of warezing going on!!

as part of my "research" (yeah, i admit it, i was tempted) i downloaded a a few books, but found most of them unreadable.
OCR errors so bad you couldn't even guess what the text was supposed to be.

no comparison to legally purchased ebooks and the gutemberg versions!!!

what i'm trying to say is that this IRC experience left me impressed with how many books are stolen every minute of every day.
2 per second, that's 172,800 downloads per day !!!
if only half of these people would buy their books legally for 5 bucks, publishers and authors would make a lot more money than they do now!

i remember back in the 90s when IRC was still a CHAT, not a file-sharing application. (i actually skipped a lot of classes at university just to talk to some people. man, i really wasted my time back then :))

[Steve Jordan]

I think one of the things we all seem to be agreeing on is the fact that publishers need to start rebuilding their business models to account for the new market of e-books, and stop trying to bolt it onto the old models. The model(s) they are using presently are simply not well thought out, are pricing e-books inordinately high, are alienating more customers than they are bringing in, and are actually encouraging theft (even of unreadable copies!).

But how do you get publishers to realize this, and start making the change? Does it finally happen when they get body-slammed in the market by some Johnny-come-lately author or publisher with a better idea? I think it might indeed come to that.

[CoreyJF]

I actually don’t think the pricing model is unreasonable. Do you really expect them to cannibalize there own bound books sales by offering a drastically reduced Ebook pricing model, when for the immediate future bound books will continue to be there main revenue source. A paradigm shift to ebooks is not going to happen tomorrow, and it probably will not happen until a new technology comes in that is appealing to the baby-boomer populous (which is a significant portion of the book buying industry) or there is a generational change that ushers in a new comfort with Ebooks that does not currently exist in the general marketplace.

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft, should take a long and serious look at there own mores. Despite the fact that music can be bought for .99 a song and there are reasonable “unlimited” packages out there, music piracy is still rampant, even in the wake of lawsuits.

I also fail to see how charging a fairly similar price to bound books causes alienation. A quick search on fictionwise, mobipocket, and Amazon shows the price of most ebooks are comparable and in some cases a little cheaper then there bound counterparts.

Look at Steven King's latest release “The Cell” -Fictionwise price $14.99 - Amazon Bound Book price $17.79. Is there only a 3 dollar cost saving to the publisher by producing it in electronic format, maybe not, so what? When you consider tech support (not everyone is as savvy as Thoughts readers) and more importantly the cost associated with piracy (as you pointed out OCR pirated books have significant drawbacks that their stripped DRM counterparts do not suffer) a good chunk of the cost savings evaporates. And as I pointed out in a previous post, much of the cost of a new release is not tied to the physical production. If you think the cost is too high on a new release, wait until it drops; it usually does, often coinciding with the release of a paperback version.

Even if there is a greater margin for publishers of Ebooks, again so what. If anything that will just help motivate them to produce more. In the majority of cases, you are not being asked to pay more then for the bound counterparts. This is especially true when you consider release date; obviously a new release is going to cost more while the publisher recoups operating and marketing cost. I also find it more then a little ironic that many of the people, I have read on this site and others, who have vehemently voiced there opinion as to the superiority of the Ebook form, yet complain about paying a comparable price. Let’s not forget, you often get what you pay for.

[Steve Jordan]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft, should take a long and serious look at there own mores.

It's not a rationale, and it has nothing to do with our personal mores. It's simply a point of fact that theft generally occurs because someone wants something they cannot or will not buy. That distinction is directly related to the cost, and the thieves' perception of its value. If they want it, but they believe it isn't worth the exhorbitant price, they are more likely to steal it instead.

[Jorgen]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft

Noone said that. The only way you save money by paying $0.99 per song is that you don't have to buy a whole CD to get the few songs you are interested in. However, you are wrong about music piracy - it has fallen heavily.

Do you really expect them to cannibalize there own bound books sales

No, not in the very sort run. However, I would like them to and if they want to see ebooks take off big time, they will have to. Once dead-cheap, easy-to-use eInk readers arrive on the market, some entrepreneurial soul will hopefully dump the prices and take over the market by offering the authors higher percentages.

Meanwhile, there are tons of legally free ebooks out there, mainly classics but also some contemporary.

Jorgen

[martin_ayton]

it has nothing to do with our personal mores. It's simply a point of fact that theft generally occurs because someone wants something they cannot or will not buy. That distinction is directly related to the cost, and the thieves' perception of its value. If they want it, but they believe it isn't worth the exhorbitant price, they are more likely to steal it instead.

I don't agree: There are many things which I would like to have but which I cannot (or choose not to) afford, but I don't steal them even if I could do so with no personal risk because my values (or mores) prevent me. People steal stuff because they believe they can do so without any personal consequences and because they have a personal philosophy or value system which allows them to do so. In other words; they steal because their internal restrictions don't exist and the external ones are ineffective.

Pricing does not materially affect this and I really doubt that reducing the price of data (software, music, ebooks etc.) will reduce piracy proportionately. Most people who will steal an item priced at X will also steal it if it is priced at 0.1X: There is always something else to spend their money on that they cannot steal.

Of course, everyone has their own personal good/bad cutoff (take this example: when on, a two lane stretch of road, one lane ends and merges into the other, how far towards the end of the disappearing lane are you prepared to go before you merge into the main stream of traffic? and how annoyed do you get with people who are prepared to go further along than you?) but that cutoff has a habit of moving. I am certain that if the price of ebooks dropped to, say $1, then, in a couple of years we would be having this self-same discussion demanding that they dropped again to £0.50...

[dMores]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft, should take a long and serious look at there own mores.
It's not a rationale, and it has nothing to do with our personal mores.
because my values (or mores) prevent me.

STOP IT !!!
:)

back on topic: lower costs for ebooks wanted.
i refuse to accept the position, that DUE TO theft, the price of ebooks remains high. just summing up all the illegal downloads multiplied by the average price of an ebook may look good in the papers (28,9 quadrillion dollars in damage), but it does not mean that if theft was avoided, that this amount of money would have been on the publishers' bank accounts.
so keeping ebook prices high to make up for the difference between actual income and calculated "lost" is something i just cannot agree with.
why should the rest of the world pay for something they are not responsible for?

also, if i buy a paperback for 18 bucks, i have it in my bookshelf. paper, cover, pretty pictures and all.
then i pay 15 bucks for basically a text document ... this simply does not make sense (for me).
i like the $0.99/mp3 plan. i can chose what song to buy, and i accept the fact that i don't have a cd, cover, booklet etc.

so, when i buy an ebook, i just don't want to pay just slightly less than what the real deal costs.

i would love to see more authors apply steve jordan's method, and i would fully support it. (unfortunately, steven's books are just not what i like to read)

[CoreyJF]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft

Noone said that. The only way you save money by paying $0.99 per song is that you don't have to buy a whole CD to get the few songs you are interested in. However, you are wrong about music piracy - it has fallen heavily.

Do you really expect them to cannibalize there own bound books sales

No, not in the very sort run. However, I would like them to and if they want to see ebooks take off big time, they will have to. Once dead-cheap, easy-to-use eInk readers arrive on the market, some entrepreneurial soul will hopefully dump the prices and take over the market by offering the authors higher percentages.

Meanwhile, there are tons of legally free ebooks out there, mainly classics but also some contemporary.

Jorgen

Actually Steve Jordan said that

"The model(s) they are using presently are simply not well thought out, are pricing e-books inordinately high, are alienating more customers than they are bringing in, and are actually encouraging theft (even of unreadable copies!). "

And as for them "having to" this may or may not hold true. As I said there is far more in the current pricing structure of a book, then the cost of the binding.

[CoreyJF]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft, should take a long and serious look at there own mores.

It's not a rationale, and it has nothing to do with our personal mores. It's simply a point of fact that theft generally occurs because someone wants something they cannot or will not buy. That distinction is directly related to the cost, and the thieves' perception of its value. If they want it, but they believe it isn't worth the exhorbitant price, they are more likely to steal it instead.

If we were talking about steeling food for your family to survive, I would concede that point. But considering we are talking about ebooks, it is most certainly is a rational for a moral deficiency.

[CoreyJF]

Anyone who thinks the cost of a particular item is a valid rational for its theft, should take a long and serious look at there own mores.
It's not a rationale, and it has nothing to do with our personal mores.
because my values (or mores) prevent me.

STOP IT !!!
:)

back on topic: lower costs for ebooks wanted.
i refuse to accept the position, that DUE TO theft, the price of ebooks remains high. just summing up all the illegal downloads multiplied by the average price of an ebook may look good in the papers (28,9 quadrillion dollars in damage), but it does not mean that if theft was avoided, that this amount of money would have been on the publishers' bank accounts.
so keeping ebook prices high to make up for the difference between actual income and calculated "lost" is something i just cannot agree with.
why should the rest of the world pay for something they are not responsible for?

also, if i buy a paperback for 18 bucks, i have it in my bookshelf. paper, cover, pretty pictures and all.
then i pay 15 bucks for basically a text document ... this simply does not make sense (for me).
i like the $0.99/mp3 plan. i can chose what song to buy, and i accept the fact that i don't have a cd, cover, booklet etc.

so, when i buy an ebook, i just don't want to pay just slightly less than what the real deal costs.

i would love to see more authors apply steve jordan's method, and i would fully support it. (unfortunately, steven's books are just not what i like to read)

I didn’t say the price was solely connected to piracy, only that it is a factor that mitigates some of the cost savings in Ebook format. You are correct that some people may read a pirated e-book that they may not have read or bought otherwise so it is not a direct download to cost ratio. I never said it was, only that there are many people out there, who will not purchase a book that they might have otherwise, if they can steel it. If you look at IRC, FileSharing, and newsgroups it is obvious that piracy is a growing issue, and while the cost may not be a one to one ratio it is still money out of the publishers and authors pockets. As for it being unfair for the rest of the world to pay for other people’s theft, that is unfortunate fact of life. All insurance prices are affected by fraud. Your retail prices are affected by shoplifting and fraudulent returns. Even your healthcare costs are effected by patients who don’t pay there bills. It sucks but it is part of life.

My point about piracy was only one part of my statement. Tech support is a factor. But more importantly, pricing based on release date is disparate aspect of physical production cost. What I am saying is much of the cost of publishing a bound book is not directly wrapped into the physical production and distribution cost. And if you look at the Ebook sites I listed in a previous post, you are not paying $17+ for books that have been sitting on the self for years. You are paying between 1-10 dollars. Which is comparable and usually less then the paperback (which actually don’t have a large printing and binding cost) counterpart. Also most books which are not published in Hardback and are instead released straight to paperback, usually don’t command high prices in ebook form.

BTW when you are buying an Ebook, you are getting the real deal. You are getting, all the blood sweat and tears an author, publisher, agent, production editor, copy editor, marketers and many unnamed others poor into a book. The fact that you don’t consider Ebooks to be the “real deal” is an example of why I think the paradigm shift to ebooks is still a ways off and why Publishers are unlikely to cannibalize there own sales with a skewed pricing structure.

I am not directing this to anyone in particular, but there seems to be such a sense of entitlement in many peoples argument for lowered prices and the acceptability of piracy. We deserve to get X at X price. It is very disheartening. If Steve Jordan wants to offer his books at low cost, good for him. If Jane Doe wished to publish on a creative commons license and give it away for free, Wahoo! For those who think a novel should be sold for a song, or the literal price therefore of, I ask you if you have really taken the time to think or learn about what goes into producing a book. The time spent writing, editing, rewriting, editing… is a thousand fold greater then it is to write and produce a single song. Ultimately pricing will be a market driven phenomena and considering all that goes into producing quality fiction, I for one am more then willing to way 17-30 dollars for a new release and 1-10 for something that has been out for awhile.

[Steve Jordan]

STOP IT !!!
:)

(screech!)
Hokay. I'm done with that.

Let's try this, then: One of the reasons I believe in lower e-book prices is the fact that electronic distribution should make it easier for more people to buy a particular product. Potentially many, many more people. More distant markets, remote markets, and foreign markets that otherwise might not have access to a title, may have access to an electronic copy. Obviously this hasn't happened worldwide yet, but we're heading in that direction. (I've already sold my e-books in other continents... how likely would it be for me to do that in a traditional paper-based model as a self-publisher?)

For example, if worldwide sales of an e-book outstripped the sales of, say, paperbacks by a factor of 10, then an e-book could be priced at less than a paperback, as much as 1/10th the cost, and (theoretically) still make the same profit for the seller. If the cost of producing and distributing the e-book is less than producing and distributing the paperback, you'd make even more profit at 1/10th the cost. As far as I know, this is essentially the selling model for paperbacks (selling in greater numbers at a fraction of the price of hardbacks), and I don't see why it can't apply to e-books. They are essentially the next production stage down, after paperbacks.

I believe this is a viable selling model. We are clearly not at the point where e-book sales are outstripping paperbacks or hardbacks yet, but when we are (yes, I believe it will happen), the person who adopts this model can make good money with low-cost product. And I expect them to coexist with hardbacks and paperbacks, not completely replace one or the other.

[Steve Jordan]

i would love to see more authors apply steve jordan's method, and i would fully support it. (unfortunately, steven's books are just not what i like to read)

Dayam!!

[Jorgen]

You are getting, all the blood sweat and tears an author, publisher, agent, production editor, copy editor, marketers and many unnamed others poor into a book.

Very true and the customer should pay for this, sweat and tears and all. However, I doubt that you need that many people to run an ebook publishing firm.

I also doubt that piracy is an important part of the equation. Fictionwise once checked and found (like dModes) that most books were scanned, not stolen. As I said earlier: People may collect them because there are there but just because they do that, does not necessarily mean that they would have bought the books if they didn't get them for free. I doubt that the losses are not much more than what the publishers will "lose" once libraries lend out ebooks to a greater extend than now.

However, the difficulty being a publisher of paperbooks is probably mainly that they have to take a lot of chances: Will the author sell? How many should we print? Which quality? How do we advertise? Should the representative do special promotion in the shops for this particular book? etc. They then had high variable costs with regards to paper, printing and binding and on top of this production of catalogues, distribution, administration of returns, losses on returns etc.

My years in business tells me that these variable costs are the ones that give the publisher the main bulk of the losses, not to mention the stomach-ulcer. Taking a chance with a new author will cost a lot less when it comes to ebooks as most of the costs can be held within the fixed costs. I'll also bet that the authors (with a few exceptions, perhaps) are not getting a large part of the "loot".

Once the ebook readers (no, not you, the hardware readers you read on) become dead cheap and therefore common, it will be possible to sell on volume (i.e. with low markups) and therefore at a very cheap price.

One day, all new books probably might be published as ebooks first and the sales used to judge if they should also be published as paper books(?)

Jorgen

[Jorgen]

Apropos the music business: "Survey says: music costs too much, and it sucks" http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060202-6103.html.

Jorgen

[Steve Jordan]

An important quote from the bottom of said article:

Finally, it must be noted for the umpteenth time that this is yet another data point that suggests that casual piracy is not the problem that the labels face. It's apathy on the part of consumers coupled with unrealistic views on the part of the industry.

The only part of this that might be different from the print industry is consumer apathy about book content... but other than that, this is spot-on for the e-book industry, too.

Although, to be fair, as much as I'd like to buy more SF, the lack of quality of presentation at the mega-bookstore does not even make me want to browse. Is it too many books, with same-old-same-old covers, crammed on the shelves so tight that it's hard to even remove them? Is it standing with my head tilted 90 degrees to read spine titles? And what about the titles? ("Dragons And Wine"... "The Sixth Persnickety Warp"... "The Bonzo Effect"... "Guess Which Clone's Coming to Dinner?" Boy, I gotta read that...)

I dunno, maybe I'm getting old and jaded. But so little out there looks interesting, compelling, or even vaguely original, that it's getting hard for me to buy. So in my case, maybe apathy IS setting in...

[Constant Caffeine]

Too bad there is not a frequent ebook reader club. Get a free ebook after so many purchases.

[kndlewis]

Fictionwise has their buywise club. Discounts and specials do add up to free books.

[dMores]

they also have micropay dollars.

so when you buy books, a lot of them give you micropay rebates which means your micropay account fills up, and you can then use those virtual dollars to buy more books.

really neat system, since it also motivates you to buy something so you can get more onto your micropay account so you can get that book you've been waiting to get but that was just a little too expensive to buy but since it's virtual dollars you're spending you'll get it anyways.

[McDeHack]

I have yet to buy an ebook. Although like many on here I have quite a few in my library.

I have bought many paper books new and second hand in the past and I expect that I will do so again in the future.

Why pay for something if you can get it for free?

The sort of fiction books I like are in plentiful supply on the ‘Russian’ site.
Sorry. But I have no conscience about getting them from there.

Also if I really wanted to read a new book I can go to my local library and get it there if they have it. If not, they will get it for me. When I have read it, I take it back and I expect others will also read it. This is a service that I pay for in my council tax.

I like ebooks, as it has been said. To be able to carry books in a small PDA it is so convenient.

I have visited the sites that offer ebooks at a price. Yes I think that for what they are compared to a paper version they are expensive. Secondly. Most of the titles that are on offer do not interest me.

[Steve Jordan]

Do you like Sci-Fi? (Plug, plug!)

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Seriously, though, I guess the only reason to pay something for e-books is so the writers will willingly keep writing, and you'll continue to have something to download.

[McDeHack]

Do you like Sci-Fi? (Plug, plug!)

No Steve I am sorry I don't. The ones that I have tried to read do not seem to be in the real world.. 0X

[Steve Jordan]

:( daig...

Almost makes me wish I was writing something else, to see how well other material would sell...

[rocky_raher]

The ones that I have tried to read do not seem to be in the real world.. 0X

Sci-fi isn't for everyone (which genre is??), so I won't try to sell you on it.

However, regarding your comment, that's pretty much the definition of sci-fi and fantasy, isn't it? I certainly understand if that's not your cup of tea, but your quote is kinda like saying, "I don't like books about history, because none of those I've read seem to take place in the modern day." :-)

[kndlewis]

Also if I really wanted to read a new book I can go to my local library and get it there if they have it. If not, they will get it for me. When I have read it, I take it back and I expect others will also read it. This is a service that I pay for in my council tax.

I can download ebooks from my local library web site! Fictionwise also has a library available to buywise club members.

[CoreyJF]

I give up on this thread; it truly saddens me to read. There is much I won’t even bother to address but I would like to say a couple closing words.

Jordon - The people I mentioned that are require for the publishing quality fiction are not specific to the format, it doesn’t matter if it is paperback, hardcover, or ebooks; all of those people are needed to produce quality work. Much of the cost associated with producing a bound book is not directly connected to the physical binding and distribution and therefore would not be saved. I am going to leave that there because it becomes a circular argument. You say there is huge cost saving be producing ebooks versus paper; I say much of that cost is eaten by other factors i.e. tech support and most of all piracy.

Yes, you are correct that most pirated books are not stripped DRM but scanned. Which of course is why as previously mentioned, there are so many OCR errors. This is not because it is easier to scan a 400-900 page book, then it is to strip the DRM, it is because far more books are not made in E format. So many publishers say, why take the risk of giving the pirates perfect copies.

As for the fact that one day publishers may be able to sell “high volume low/low mark up” This thread is not about why ebooks will cost so much in the future, it is about there current pricing. As you, I and other have stated, certain things will need to happen before the bulk of the population will be comfortable switching to ebook format. Publishers are not going to set their prices on what may be profitable in 5/10/20/100 years from now. Even as an argument to why they should be cheaper in the future, I would say that things may or may not play out that way. The fact is, with the growing forms of digital entertainment out there, people read less. Will significantly more people be willing to buy ebooks at a lower cost? Maybe, maybe not, time will tell.

The survey is a perfect example of my previous statement regarding people’s “sense on entitlement”. That is the beauty of a free market economy, if you don’t think something is worth the price, don’t buy it. Of course that doesn’t give anyone a justification to steel it either. Speaking of which, that rollings stone survey (1,000 people – not exactly a rocking sample size) is inherently flawed. While McDeHack seems perfectly willing to share with the world his comfort with theft, many people will not answer questions of there criminal behavior as honestly.

Steve Jordan – Have you actually looked for quality fiction? I read between 4 -10 books a month. While they are not always master pieces, I have found plenty of gems. If you are willing to step outside speculative fiction you can find even more. But even within SF there are some good books out there. Neil Gaiman “Anansi Boys” comes to mind. It is not necessary to read “American Gods” first, but if you haven’t certainly worth a read. Robin McKinley’s “Sunshine.” Dean Koontz’s “Forever Odd” helpful if you read “Odd Thomas” first. Jon Fasman “ Geographer’s Library. Peter Straub “In the night room” I actually read that before “lost boy lost girl” which in hindsight I should have kept to the original publishing order.

Ultimately I just don’t understand how many so many people, who claim to love to read, seem to put so little value in the product. Best of luck with your rationales, justifications and whining.

[Jorgen]

Jordon - The people I mentioned that are require for the publishing quality fiction are not specific to the format, it doesn’t matter if it is paperback, hardcover, or ebooks; all of those people are needed to produce quality work.
Fictionwise had 5 employees in 2003 at which time they had 67000+ members. http://www.libwise.com/FW-Presskit-ALA-2003-01-20-v2.doc

Publishers are not going to set their prices on what may be profitable in 5/10/20/100 years from now.
If they don't look forward, say, 3-5 years, they are going to die. People read less books as you rightly write and the only way to reverse that trend will be to lower the prices significantly. Paper books are significantly cheaper in Japan than in the UK (my last country) though Japan is an expensive country in most other respects; I would think that the Japanese buy a lot of books because the books are cheap.

Can the e-publishers lower their prices? 1) They can if they sell more. 2) The risk of taking in new talent is many times lower with ebooks than paper books as no physical production need to take place before publishing. 3) For the same reason, new books can be published many times faster.

Jorgen

[Steve Jordan]

I can download ebooks from my local library web site! Fictionwise also has a library available to buywise club members.

The Montgomery County, Maryland Public Library web site also has e-books to download, although it seems to be only 50 books. One of these days I have to look into "borrowing" e-books from them (though I usually buy the books I want, when I can find them).

[CoreyJF]

Jordon - The people I mentioned that are require for the publishing quality fiction are not specific to the format, it doesn’t matter if it is paperback, hardcover, or ebooks; all of those people are needed to produce quality work.
Fictionwise had 5 employees in 2003 at which time they had 67000+ members. http://www.libwise.com/FW-Presskit-ALA-2003-01-20-v2.doc

Publishers are not going to set their prices on what may be profitable in 5/10/20/100 years from now.
If they don't look forward, say, 3-5 years, they are going to die. People read less books as you rightly write and the only way to reverse that trend will be to lower the prices significantly. Paper books are significantly cheaper in Japan than in the UK (my last country) though Japan is an expensive country in most other respects; I would think that the Japanese buy a lot of books because the books are cheap.

Can the e-publishers lower their prices? 1) They can if they sell more. 2) The risk of taking in new talent is many times lower with ebooks than paper books as no physical production need to take place before publishing. 3) For the same reason, new books can be published many times faster.

Jorgen

Ok I am not sure why I am responding after I said I wouldn't but Fictionwise is a reseller, not a true publisher.

The fact that books are cheaper in some other countries should go to show you, much of the cost is not in the binding and distribution.

Since no one has proved then can sell more that way, it is inherent risky oh and BTW I seriously doubt we are talking 3-5 years

OK now I am finished

[Steve Jordan]

2) The risk of taking in new talent is many times lower with ebooks than paper books as no physical production need to take place before publishing. 3) For the same reason, new books can be published many times faster.

I think this is significant, too. Right now the sheer volume of material between me and the publishers and editors keeps me from getting published by them. Giving me an outlet for my books by bypassing them lets the public access my books sooner, and they can decide whether I'm worth reading. It even removes some or all risk from the publishers, because I'm taking the risk on my own, on my time, and on my dime. If I turn out to be popular, the publishers can then accept a submission from me, or ask to publish my books, knowing the risk is lessened. That should lessen their speculation costs to cover potential losses.

[CoreyJF]

2) The risk of taking in new talent is many times lower with ebooks than paper books as no physical production need to take place before publishing. 3) For the same reason, new books can be published many times faster.

I think this is significant, too. Right now the sheer volume of material between me and the publishers and editors keeps me from getting published by them. Giving me an outlet for my books by bypassing them lets the public access my books sooner, and they can decide whether I'm worth reading. It even removes some or all risk from the publishers, because I'm taking the risk on my own, on my time, and on my dime. If I turn out to be popular, the publishers can then accept a submission from me, or ask to publish my books, knowing the risk is lessened. That should lessen their speculation costs to cover potential losses.

I really am going to try and stop responding to this thread.

Steve, your books may be the bee’s knees, I honestly haven’t read any of them yet, but I will give them a try.

That being said, what you are talking about is the Electronic form of the vanity press. You may very well be one of the few and very rare exceptions that manages to produce quality fiction in such a venue. It isn’t unprecedented, but it is excitedly rare. But in most cases, even the pro’s need polishing from editors and copyeditors. No matter how good you are, most writers are to close to there own work to successfully edit it. If you are paying for professional editing services, then the money is not flowing to you. The money should always flow to the author (I know I just plagiarized, but I can recall who said that at the moment).

[Steve Jordan]

I'm not going to say that copyeditors don't serve a useful purpose. However, I've come across a number of books in the last 2-3 years that didn't look to me like a copyeditor had even touched them (I kid you not). Still, they were printed, they sold, and they made someone money.

I believe many authors can copyedit themselves, if they take the time to do so... many of them could, but don't, simply because they have copyeditors at their disposal. Others submit to copyediting designed to make a book more sellable to the publisher/public (whether that improves the story or not, a subject I won't debate here). And some just write what editors tell them to write.

This is often the difference between a workman and a craftsman: The former creates what someone tells him to create; the latter creates on his own, improves through trial and error, and lets his work stand on its own merits. In this light, I am trying to be a craftsman, and letting the public decide how successful I am at my craft. And if the feedback I get suggests I do not craft a good product, then I can learn and improve, try writing what others tell me to write, or stop writing.

Sure, it's a risk... I'm testing myself, and my product. But I don't mind taking that risk. And since I can't get a publisher to look at my work... how else will I test myself and learn?

[PetiteFlower]

I believe many authors can copyedit themselves, if they take the time to do so...

Unless they're Anne Rice. Then they THINK they don't need an editor, and when their readers vehemently disagree (because her books have completely sucked since she fired her editor) the authors can just tell the readers that they're wrong and just don't get it. :)

[CoreyJF]

I'm not going to say that copyeditors don't serve a useful purpose. However, I've come across a number of books in the last 2-3 years that didn't look to me like a copyeditor had even touched them (I kid you not). Still, they were printed, they sold, and they made someone money.

I believe many authors can copyedit themselves, if they take the time to do so... many of them could, but don't, simply because they have copyeditors at their disposal. Others submit to copyediting designed to make a book more sellable to the publisher/public (whether that improves the story or not, a subject I won't debate here). And some just write what editors tell them to write.

This is often the difference between a workman and a craftsman: The former creates what someone tells him to create; the latter creates on his own, improves through trial and error, and lets his work stand on its own merits. In this light, I am trying to be a craftsman, and letting the public decide how successful I am at my craft. And if the feedback I get suggests I do not craft a good product, then I can learn and improve, try writing what others tell me to write, or stop writing.

Sure, it's a risk... I'm testing myself, and my product. But I don't mind taking that risk. And since I can't get a publisher to look at my work... how else will I test myself and learn?

I probably should be writing this after taking my lunesta, but here goes.

Not all editors and copyeditors do a great job every time. Often that is because the author has enough power and influence to push pass whatever he/she chooses.

I agree with the analogy of the craftsman, however I would say an objective(and lets not get into the debate over whether there is such a thing) editor is a valuable tool for your craft. He/She can look at your work from a different perspective. No matter how much time you take, you will never get completely out of your own head. There will always be bits and pieces that exist solely in your mind, that the reader isn't privy to, editors can catch that.

Have your tied getting a reputable agent. Let them smooze the NY scene. If a good agent sees something in your book, it will get to an editor. If you have a sales figures for your ebooks, use that as a selling point to the agent, let them figure out how to get you to a publishing house...

[Jorgen]

but Fictionwise is a reseller, not a true publisher.

No, Fictionwise publish and distribute books. You are right in that they do not take in new talent, only authors with a couple of books behind them. But add a few editors and they could. Such editors are undoubtedly a must, though there like everywhere in business are failures that do a bad job. Some authors are capable of doing it themselves (apart from "our" Steve Jordan, Child from the Preston and Child author pair is a good example) but they are probably exceptions.

Corey, I don't know what your connection publishing is, but my instinct tells me that publishers (and newspapers) need to take a good hard look at the way they do business in order not to disappear just like typographers (remember those?) in the 90ies. When (and not if) very cheap eInk readers arrive, it will be too late.

Jorgen

[Steve Jordan]

Steve, your books may be the bee’s knees, I honestly haven’t read any of them yet, but I will give them a try.

You know what: Don't feel like you have to buy one of my books, just to make a point. You want to read one, download the free anthology series, and be my guest. Besides, based on descriptions of the books you recommended to me, I don't think my novels are going to be of interest to you.

[CoreyJF]

but Fictionwise is a reseller, not a true publisher.

No, Fictionwise publish and distribute books. You are right in that they do not take in new talent, only authors with a couple of books behind them. But add a few editors and they could. Such editors are undoubtedly a must, though there like everywhere in business are failures that do a bad job. Some authors are capable of doing it themselves (apart from "our" Steve Jordan, Child from the Preston and Child author pair is a good example) but they are probably exceptions.

Corey, I don't know what your connection publishing is, but my instinct tells me that publishers (and newspapers) need to take a good hard look at the way they do business in order not to disappear just like typographers (remember those?) in the 90ies. When (and not if) very cheap eInk readers arrive, it will be too late.

Jorgen

I am a writer not a publisher and before I choose to submit my work for publication, I have been doing a fair amount of research on the topic.

Fictionwise is not a true publisher, they may define themselves as one, but that is a very loose interpretation at best - From there website. They are a reseller and POD.

"Fictionwise, Inc. is an independent eBook publisher and distributor with sales of more than 40,000 eBooks per month. We contract electronic rights to previously-published fiction works and sell them in eBook form, and we also distribute eBooks from other quality publishers and ePublishers."

Hiring a couple editors in not a publishing house make.

Any writer who thinks an editor can't improve your work is blinded by his own arrogance.

[CoreyJF]

Steve, your books may be the bee’s knees, I honestly haven’t read any of them yet, but I will give them a try.

You know what: Don't feel like you have to buy one of my books, just to make a point. You want to read one, download the free anthology series, and be my guest. Besides, based on descriptions of the books you recommended to me, I don't think my novels are going to be of interest to you.

I am a veracious reader. Mostly fiction, but I read everything from Shakespeare to SF. Even inside SF, my taste run from historical fiction to the futuristic space opera with fantasy and mythology thrown into the mix. The books I mentioned were simply the ones that I have read in the last month or so. Looking back now, my recent reading list has been mostly in the omniverse of the paranormal; I am working on several projects that fall within that very broad category and is probably influencing my book buying decisions more then I realized.

We have had this conversation before, and I am honestly wondering how often you do read and what is it that your read. I am not asking you to call out any authors; I am not a big fan of trashing anyone’s work in a pubic forum. I once posted a fairly unflattering review of Anne Rice’s “Christ the Lord : Out of Egypt” on Audible’s website and I felt guilty about it for some time. I am not sure why, since it was an honest review, and I never have concerns verbally expressing my dislike for a specific book. I guess it has to do with the permanence of the written word and not like to burn bridges. Not that Anne Rice is reading my reviews or would care to remember my name… So instead of telling me what you don’t like. Tell me something written in the last decade that you did like. It sounds like you have very specific tastes, maybe someone here will be able to steer you to books you are more likely to enjoy. I swear I am not just saying this just because I am a former English Teacher, but reading truly does help build your writing skills and no matter how good you are, there is always room for improvement.

[Steve Jordan]

I think we're straying waaay off subject here... the issue isn't about who likes what books, who needs editors, or who's arrogant. The subject is, Why are e-books so expensive? Why don't we try to get back to that?

We all agree that the e-book market hasn't taken off yet, and I think we all agree that a popular e-book reader is still not here yet. Many people were speculating in 2000 that there would be a popular reader out by now, but that hasn't happened. So it's really hard to say how long that might take. And despite the press (!) on e-paper, a useable e-paper product might not show before 2010.

In the meantime, there are workable readers in many hands right now, in the form of PPCs and smartphones, and of course, computers can read e-books, too. These devices are being used worldwide, in some countries (like Japan) by more of the population than in the U.S. The U.S. might not be a good example, but if you look worldwide, there's a pretty healthy market right now.

So why hasn't anyone tapped that market yet? A lot of countries still yearn for Western content. It's easy to get Western digital content to the East. Why isn't it happening?

I think traditional publishers are simply not accepting the realities of the digital market, or coming to grips with this web-based global market that they've barely tapped. And I think lowering the prices of e-books would go a long way to tapping that market, and starting a huge ball rolling.

True, it's an initial risk, and may not make an immediate profit. All I can say to that is: Amazon.com.

[Jorgen]

DRM and price keep people from buying ebooks. The VHS/Betamax war taught people to wait until a clear winner rise from the dust.

I will bet that many existing ebook-owners began to worry about how long they will be able to read their DRM infested ebooks when they last month saw the eInk readers.

Jorgen

[ebookexpert.co.uk]

visit www.ebookexpert.co.uk all ebooks only £2 and full resell rights with immediate delivery. You cant call that expensive now

[Steve Jordan]

Maybe not, but that's a collection of "public domain" books. Search a little bit, and you can get that stuff for free.

[pc-kid]

There are some ebooks which make out they are giving you lots of secret information ..eg seo-ebook dot com, wants $79.. what a rip off... but if you look in other places you can find very cheap or in many cases free ebooks.

I found a free ebook for website promotion at http://www.free-seo-ebook.com

Also you can get lots of free ebooks about ebay - marketing - making money ect very cheap or free. And there are some membership places where you pay just a monthly / yearly fee and you can download as many ebooks as you want. So if you think ebooks are expensive then just look somewhere else.