Verizon Also Officially Announces The Treo 700w

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060104/20060104005362.html?.v=1' target='_blank'>http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060104/2006...05362.html?.v=1</a><br /><br /></div><i>"For businesses and individuals who want the latest all-in-one mobile communications and business-productivity solution, Palm, Inc. and Verizon Wireless today announced the availability of the Palm® Treo(TM) 700w smartphone, the first Treo smartphone to take advantage of Verizon Wireless' BroadbandAccess service on its EV-DO network. The Treo 700w smartphone also is the first Treo smartphone to run the Microsoft Windows Mobile operating system, bringing the hallmark Palm ease of use to Windows Mobile for the first time. It combines a great mobile phone with high-speed wireless data access to email(1) and business applications. The Treo 700w smartphone goes on sale tomorrow and joins the Treo 650 smartphone based on the Palm OS® platform on the Verizon Wireless network."</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20060104-Treo700w.jpg" /><br /><br />Fast on the heels of the XV6700, here comes the 700w. Almost -- stores are supposed to have them tomorrow. ;) There's a huge thread on HowardForums <a href="http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=803423&amp;page=24&amp;pp=15">with people planning to pick the device up</a>. The device will cost $399 (after $100 rebate with a 2-year voice+data contract). One controversy remains: the top-linked press release clearly states <i>"128MB of memory and 60MB of dedicated user storage"</i>, but the screenshots on the above-linked thread shows 25MB of program memory. 8O If anyone gets their hands on one and can comment on this issue, post back in this thread.

[KTamas]

25 MB? Huh? It can be a pre-production model...Edit: No, wait, he says it is from a production model. Weird.

[whydidnt]

One controversy remains: the top-linked press release clearly states "128MB of memory and 60MB of dedicated user storage", but the screenshots on the above-linked thread shows 25MB storage space. 8O If anyone gets their hands on one and can comment on this issue, post back in this thread.

That makes sense to me 128 MB of ROM with 60 MB useable for storage. Palm cheaped out (as I expected) and only provides 32 MB of RAM for program use - the OS will use about 18 MB of this, leaving about 14 MB available for actual program execution. Unfortunately that number will get smaller as soon as you sync a decent sized PIM data base and a few emails.

Shame on Palm, MS and Verizon for releasing this device with insufficient RAM. It had all of the makings of finally bringing WM to the mainstream, but will most likely end up being considered a flop because targeted users aren't going to want to manage their memory (and shouldn't have to).

I posted this link in another thread earlier: http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=803423&amp;page=24&amp;pp=15 It's a photo of a production unit confirming the lack of RAM.

It really seems to me that both the employees of MS and the OEM's never really use the devices they create/build. Anyone who has used a WM5 device to this point knows that 32 MB is not sufficient, even for a non-power user. The new memory structure uses memory like a drunk spills booze at a bar. All one needs to do is read the Windows Mobile Team blog to realize the developers are as shocked by Memory utililization as the rest of us! :?

[huangzhinong]

The 25MB shown in picture is RAM left after boot. (out of 32MB physical builtin RAM in the processor). The 60MB storage space is ROM left after boot. (out of 128MB ROM).

[surur]

The 25MB shown in picture is RAM left after boot. (out of 32MB physical builtin RAM in the processor). The 60MB storage space is ROM left after boot. (out of 128MB ROM).

Actually its 25 Mb before boot (7MB being allocated for buffers and such already), and then a further 15 MB is used by the OS, leaving 13-14 available after boot.

Surur

[whydidnt]

The 25MB shown in picture is RAM left after boot. (out of 32MB physical builtin RAM in the processor).

That's not really accurate. The device only has about 14 MB of RAM available after the OS loads. The ~7 MB reserved is used by the OS, but it is not where the OS loads, it loads into the 25 MB shown.

[IpaqMan2]

My PPC-6700 has about 49 megs free for execution with currently 21 megs in use and another 28 megs free which I find is nice to have. But than again, if the Treo 700 is showing 25 megs free after the OS has loaded, than it really isn't too much different than my current PPC-6700 with only 28 megs left for execution and running programs. Keep in mind, that 25 megs is for "running" programs, not storage, so to be fair it really isn't that bad for a WM 5 device and not that big of a difference than my PPC-6700. I've used my PPC-6700 fairly well and have yet to come across any memory problems.

I probably would of waited and purchased this if Verizon didn't kill WiFi on it.

[huangzhinong]

The 25MB shown in picture is RAM left after boot. (out of 32MB physical builtin RAM in the processor).

That's not really accurate. The device only has about 14 MB of RAM available after the OS loads. The ~7 MB reserved is used by the OS, but it is not where the OS loads, it loads into the 25 MB shown.

Depending on how you calculate, 32MB-25MB = 7MB is reserved to the OS. Out of the 25MB, Palm use another 10MB for their application suites and buffers, so 14MB left for user's application.

[whydidnt]

My PPC-6700 has about 49 megs free for execution with currently 21 megs in use and another 28 megs free which I find is nice to have. But than again, if the Treo 700 is showing 25 megs free after the OS has loaded, than it really isn't too much different than my current PPC-6700 with only 28 megs left for execution and running programs. Keep in mind, that 25 megs is for "running" programs, not storage, so to be fair it really isn't that bad for a WM 5 device and not that big of a difference than my PPC-6700.

Except that the Treo only has about 14 MB free after the OS loads, not 25.Your PPC-6700 has 64 MB of RAM to start with, the Treo has 32, so the Treo only has 50% as much RAM available after the OS loads.

You could try this: load up your device with about 2 weeks of email, and then launch a few common programs, such as PIE, Messaging, PI, and WMP - then see how much RAM you have left. If it's less than 14 MB's you would be out of RAM with the Treo.

[whydidnt]

Depending on how you calculate, 32MB-25MB = 7MB is reserved to the OS. Out of the 25MB, Palm use another 10MB for their application suites and buffers, so 14MB left for user's application.

Please, this just isn't true. The reserved space is used for the Page Pool, DMA buffers and a bunch of other technical stuff. The OS is loaded in the 25 MB of free space along with the rest of the OEM apps Palm may have added. The end result is the same, but the OS is NOT loaded into the reserved space. The WM team blog describes this: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx?CommentPosted=true in a discussion on why 32 MB is or isn't enough. They thought it was, but many users/developers posting point out that WM5 can use almost 3x the RAM as previous editions and disagree. The developer was surprised by that revleation. :!:

[huangzhinong]

Sorry, I think I made a big mistake, this device does have 64MB (512Mbits) RAM. From below picture:
http://pjj.smugmug.com/photos/51045293-M.jpg

It has PXA272 xscale 312MHZ processor. All PXA272 has 64MB RAM on board.

http://www.intel.com/design/pca/applicationsprocessors/linecard/

So the WM5 system reserved 39MB of 64MB for the OS, which explains why treo 700W is snappy. Most OEM only load 18~20MB core files of WM5 from ROM to RAM. In those devices, when the rest parts, such as mobile words or games, are called, they will be copied into RAM first, then launch. Palm Treo 700W load whole system into RAM from the beginning, so that everything in the OS is executed in place.

Good job or not, you decide.

[huangzhinong]

Depending on how you calculate, 32MB-25MB = 7MB is reserved to the OS. Out of the 25MB, Palm use another 10MB for their application suites and buffers, so 14MB left for user's application.

Please, this just isn't true. The reserved space is used for the Page Pool, DMA buffers and a bunch of other technical stuff. The OS is loaded in the 25 MB of free space along with the rest of the OEM apps Palm may have added. The end result is the same, but the OS is NOT loaded into the reserved space. The WM team blog describes this: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx?CommentPosted=true in a discussion on why 32 MB is or isn't enough. They thought it was, but many users/developers posting point out that WM5 can use almost 3x the RAM as previous editions and disagree. The developer was surprised by that revleation. :!:

Not right. The system is big, actually very big. 7MB is not enough. It takes 39MB RAM.

[Ed Hansberry]

So the WM5 system reserved 39MB of 64MB for the OS, which explains why treo 700W is snappy. Most OEM only load 18~20MB core files of WM5 from ROM to RAM. In those devices, when the rest parts, such as mobile words or games, are called, they will be copied into RAM first, then launch. Palm Treo 700W load whole system into RAM from the beginning, so that everything in the OS is executed in place.
Now that is facinating. Thanks!

[Kris Kumar]

Okay, I finally found the info I was looking for:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1907980,00.asp

The new Treo will get better with time. Palm will offer Microsoft's Messaging and Security Feature Pack as a free upgrade later this year, which will enable true push e-mail with corporate Microsoft Exchange 2003 SP2 servers.

:( Verizon will take forever and ever to certify the service pack. Why oh why, didn't Palm put the MSFP into the initial launch. :roll:

[whydidnt]

So the WM5 system reserved 39MB of 64MB for the OS, which explains why treo 700W is snappy. Most OEM only load 18~20MB core files of WM5 from ROM to RAM. In those devices, when the rest parts, such as mobile words or games, are called, they will be copied into RAM first, then launch. Palm Treo 700W load whole system into RAM from the beginning, so that everything in the OS is executed in place.

I'd love to see some proof of this, and I apologize in advance if I'm wrong, but I just don't believe it. Why would they go to all the trouble of loading "everything" into this reserved part of RAM, only to have another 14 MB of RAM be consumed upon a reboot, it makes no sense. Unless you are saying they are copying the entire OS ROM image to RAM (into a RAMDISK?) and then loading the OS from there? That might seem plausible and would make the device faster. However, that still only leaves users with 14 MB of program space which will be insufficient for all but the lightest of users.

I will swear on a any stack of books you put in front of me that the OS is getting loaded into the the ~25 MB space of Program memory upon reboot.

[whydidnt]

Not right. The system is big, actually very big. 7MB is not enough. It takes 39MB RAM.

Did you read the link from the WM development team I posted? They clearly state that their is portion of RAM reserved for OS usage - NOT for the OS to load to. The actual OS is loaded to RAM upon a reset. Please take a look at the link and explain how what they describe fits into your scenario.

The OS requires certain bits of RAM to be set aside for the OS's use and "hidden" from the user. That is what I believe the missing 7 MB's of space is.

If Palm has done what you propose they then are using 50 MB of RAM for the OS simply to make it run well. The WM5 development team has some 'splaining to do.

Oh yea, Chris Spera from Pocketnow received confirmation from Palm of 32 MB RAM - are still sure about the 64 MB number?...... Link - http://www.pdaphonehome.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=62714

[huangzhinong]

Please, this just isn't true. The reserved space is used for the Page Pool, DMA buffers and a bunch of other technical stuff. The OS is loaded in the 25 MB of free space along with the rest of the OEM apps Palm may have added. The end result is the same, but the OS is NOT loaded into the reserved space. The WM team blog describes this: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx?CommentPosted=true in a discussion on why 32 MB is or isn't enough. They thought it was, but many users/developers posting point out that WM5 can use almost 3x the RAM as previous editions and disagree. The developer was surprised by that revleation. :!:

Ok, let do this step by step. First, do you believe treo 700W has 64MB RAM? If not, do you have any evidence that Intel has another PXA272 product line which has no onboard RAM or only 32MB RAM.

I have searched all PPC with PXA272 processor, all of which have at least 64MB RAM.

[PPCMD]

With any luck Leondard at PPCTechs will come back from CES with a good news about a RAM upgrade so we can get what we should have had.

[jpf]

I hear 240x240 screen too, pah!

[whydidnt]

Ok, let do this step by step. First, do you believe treo 700W has 64MB RAM? If not, do you have any evidence that Intel has another PXA272 product line which has no onboard RAM or only 32MB RAM.

I have searched all PPC with PXA272 processor, all of which have 64MB RAM.

I believe the standard PXA272 has 64 MB of RAM, and have some thoughts
A) Palm places a LARGE order and says, how much less if we only get 32 MB or RAM? Intel could probably disable the additional memory, much like they have historically done on the Celeron Line without changing their fabrication process.

B) Palm buys the 64 MB Processor/chips and does what I guessed at earlier. They are moving the OS ROM image to RAM (in a hidden 32 MB RAMDISK partition) on a reboot, AND THEN loading the OS from there. They have to reserve 7 of the remaining 32 MB's for the page pool, DMA buffer, radio stack, etc. leaving 25 MB of RAM, the OS then loads into the remaining space, leaving 14 MB available to users.

C) Same as B, but Palm is XIP the OS from RAM - and has 10 MB of it's own programs, plug-ins etc. loading at reset.

Scenario A is somewhat believable based upon Palm's history with RAM. Scenario B would be better, because we would have a much faster experience than other WM5 devices. C on the other hand may be the best, because perhaps you could kill the Palm programs and get some memory back. However, I find C maybe the least likely based upon my previous experience with WM5 devices. In either case, the lack or remaining RAM to load additional programs into is still a problem.

[huangzhinong]

Well, since neither you nor me have a unit at hand, we can only guess now. Treo 650 has 32MB RAM, of which 15~16MB is occupied by the whole Garnet 5.4. 5.4MB of 32MB is used for dynamic heap. The rest part (32-16-5.4 = 10.6 MB) is called dbcache, which is the free RAM for other applications.

I do believe treo 700W has the same setup. You have to know that nothing in treo 700p ROM can be executed in place, no matter it is system OS file or third party application. The system has to be copied or extracted or installed, anything you can name it, into RAM to hook up the whole system. It's more reasonable to say, that the WM5 occupies two times memory than Palm os GARNET v5.4 (everybody know WM5 is bloated.), which is 30~32MB. Doubling dynamic heap for a double size OS is also reasonable, which cut out another 11MB RAM. The rest chunk of RAM is about 25MB, which will be used by PALM addon and caches, and also third parties applications.

[huangzhinong]

I believe the standard PXA272 has 64 MB of RAM, and have some thoughts
A) Palm places a LARGE order and says, how much less if we only get 32 MB or RAM? Intel could probably disable the additional memory, much like they have historically done on the Celeron Line without changing their fabrication process.

B) Palm buys the 64 MB Processor/chips and does what I guessed at earlier. They are moving the OS ROM image to RAM (in a hidden 32 MB RAMDISK partition) on a reboot, AND THEN loading the OS from there. They have to reserve 7 of the remaining 32 MB's for the page pool, DMA buffer, radio stack, etc. leaving 25 MB of RAM, the OS then loads into the remaining space, leaving 14 MB available to users.

C) Same as B, but Palm is XIP the OS from RAM - and has 10 MB of it's own programs, plug-ins etc. loading at reset.

Scenario A is somewhat believable based upon Palm's history with RAM. Scenario B would be better, because we would have a much faster experience than other WM5 devices. C on the other hand may be the best, because perhaps you could kill the Palm programs and get some memory back. However, I find C maybe the least likely based upon my previous experience with WM5 devices. In either case, the lack or remaining RAM to load additional programs into is still a problem.

My view is scenario A is impossible, while both B and C is highly possible. The reason is PXA272 has one 64MB memory chip with 32bits bus line, there is no way you can disable half of them while retail the chip 32bits addressing ability. On the contrary, PXA271 has two seperate 32MB memory chip onboard. It's much easier to disable 32MB memory in PXA 271. Palm will choose PXA271 if they go to scenario A. PXA 270,271,272 are the same generation products.

You scenario B and C quite agree with my thoughts too. XIP is the most possible trick for fast response in treo 700w.

[Darius Wey]

Verizon will take forever and ever to certify the service pack. Why oh why, didn't Palm put the MSFP into the initial launch. :roll:

And now we start to see why OEM/carrier-dependent MSFP releases are a real kick in the ... :(

[DaleReeck]

How weird is it to see "PALM" stamped on th front of the 700W, but a PocketPC OS on the screen :)

[jpjehu]

Can anyone speak about the speed. The 312mhz processor on the hw6515 is noticeably slower than it should be - what about this one? I think it would be perfect as long as it runs smoothly...

[pocketpcadmirer]

Its a great devise which can save palm..palm has added lots of value added apps to make it more smarter than the other pocket pc and pocket pc phone edition devices.
Its a shame on other manfs

Sunny

[surur]

Sorry, I think I made a big mistake, this device does have 64MB (512Mbits) RAM.
It has PXA272 xscale 312MHZ processor. All PXA272 has 64MB RAM on board.

http://www.intel.com/design/pca/applicationsprocessors/linecard/

Good job or not, you decide.

Look at that document again.

http://surur.sytes.net/pxa272.gif

It clearly shows it to be flash memory, the location where devices used to store their extended ROM. Face it, there is only 32 MB execution RAM, and Palm did not do any magic.

Surur

[huangzhinong]

http://reviews.cnet.com/Palm_Treo_700w/4507-3127_7-31473222.html?tag=sub

CNET has the data.

[whydidnt]

I wouldn't put too much credence in CNet's specs. They still call it a Treo 670.

I think Surur corrected both of us when he pointed out the PXA272 includes FLASH memory not RAM, it is probably where the actual os is stored, with a 2nd 64 MB chip for user storage. Now that actual users have these in there hands I think we can safely say the device only has 32 MB of RAM, and only 14.1 MB of this is available to use after a reset.

I know a lot of people really want this device to be a winner, and it has a lot of makings of such, but the limited resolution combined with the tiny system RAM is going to make this device a failure for anyone who wants to use this for anything but a phone.

I personally think Palm knows this will limit the usefulness, and that's why they have gone out of their way to confuse the issue. Listing ROM size/followed by Storage Size, with no mention of RAM size, space or usability.

It's somewhat humourus to read main stream news/review sites completely fail to report the amount of RAM. It's like they simply review the Specs provided by Palm, without actually reviewing the unit.

[possmann]

Face it - everyone out there in the business world (especially in the USA) is familiar with teh Treo form factor - that same form factor running windows and providing some of the nicer features that the other treo's have (from palm) really makes this a great frist step for the Palm/Treo.

Will they improve? Oh yeah - resolution will improve (once the OS can support it) and memory will increase as well as speed...

All griping aside, and not having played with it personally in my hands yet - which I am going to do in about an hour - woo hoo - I think this is a solid contender in the PPCPE or Windows Mobile 5 edition space - a nice, easy to hold cross over between the PPC and Smartphone worlds.

my 2 cents...