Slashdot: "Why Have PDAs Failed in the iPod Era?" [Archive]

Darius Wey

10-23-2005, 12:00 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/05/10/21/1318226.shtml' target='_blank'>http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot...1/1318226.shtml</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Given that modern PDAs have almost all the functionality of these separate devices, how has Palm and Microsoft/PocketPC developers failed in making PDAs a force in this new era of portable media devices? Is it the poor marketing, bad media apps, public perception, or do people simply not want an all-in-one for mobile media?"</i><br /><br />There's an interesting discussion over at Slashdot about why iPods continue to triumph over PDAs, despite the fact that the PDA is capable of more than just media playback. Sure enough, most of you use your Pocket PC for PIM, telephony, unrestricted audio and video playback, games, internet and email, and wow-ing your next door neighbour -- yet despite all those bells and whistles, the iPod continues to sell by the truckload. Why do you think that is?

Gerard

10-23-2005, 12:28 AM

Having read through the top level of comments there - on my PDA, in Pocket IE, via Wi-Fi - I was dismayed at the sheer volume of peronal prejudice, far and away more prevalent than actual experience-based opinion. Most of those reporting themselves as former PDA users had a Palm a few years ago, etc. "News for nerds"? More like 'Platform for opinionated wannabees.' There were little exceptions... and maybe I'll have a look later and read more posts to see if it's shaped up or degenerated further.

The one cogent argument, and one I've stated a few times in threads, is that the PDA - especially those using PPC/WM - is not supported by any real advertising. Without consumer awareness, exactly how is it supposed to compete with the iPod or whatever other product-of-the-week by which it's supposedly being slain?

Lately on Brighthand JackAubrey's been touting the video iPod as the latest nail in the PDA coffin. Earnings and numbers of models don't seem to bear his arguments out, but then again they're not earth-shaking. I expect to have access to ever more capable handhelds for a great many years, probably the rest of my life, but for some reason people like him and many of these on Slashdot perceive broad-spectrum capabilities as indicators of a doomed device. Well, I guess the PC is doomed too by that token. Not too many consumer electronics so complex as an XP notebook, are there?

ADBrown

10-23-2005, 12:33 AM

Jon Westfall

10-23-2005, 12:38 AM

I second the advertising problem - it's a key contributor to why people don't know of a PPC's abilities. If anything, the PPC / PDA has failed because it does TOO much

What does an iPod do? It plays music, maybe videos / pictures
What does a PDA do? Plays music, videos, pictures, surfs the net, edits documents, receives & sends emails, phone calls, etc...

High end iPod's are around the same $$$ as mid-range PPCs, so one would think all the PPC would need is more advertising. The problem is that developers, ODM, & OEMs all depend on each other to do the advertising and none of them have any clue what an effective advertising method for the PDA would be.

And Slashdot does get disappointing at times. Less nerds, more pseudo-nerds. I say they should give you one of those picture things when you register that simply shows 11100001001100110111 and asks you to write it down... in HEX. That should weed some people out ;)

dma1965

10-23-2005, 12:57 AM

As far as I am concerned, I will not buy another PDA, since having a Pocket PC Phone, that does not have a phone in it. As far as I see it, the iPod is not what is killing the traditional PDA (if one can make the case that it is being killed off), but the phone is. Current non PPC phones have the PIM functionality to appease most users, albeit in an awkward implementation. The Pocket PC devices are coming up, but they still have shortcomings that I have to deal with daily, since I currently have a fleet of Pocket PC phones being used by my regional managers. I have to constantly deal with batteries going dead, devices hard resetting and losing all data, half-assed bluetooth implementations, fragility, lost stylii, and the list goes on. I currently have to deal with only about 10 devices, but would be tearing my hair out if I had to deal with as many PPC phones as I do servers and desktops. What PPC devices do that are unique to PPC devices, namely highly portable desktop/laptop functions (web browsing, office documents, etc.), they do well enough to serve those that require the functionality quite well. I no longer feel the need to bring my laptop with me when I travel, since everything I need is either on my PPC phone, or available online, or through VNC or Terminal Services. Nonetheless, the maintenance and overhead required to keep this all working is FAR MORE than the average user either cares to deal with or even has a clue on how to make it all happen. A phone makes calls and receives calls with little or no training for the average user, and rarely requires any upkeep. An iPod plays music and Podcasts extremely well. I fought getting an iPod until an iPod Shuffle was given to me free for buying a Netgear gigabit switch. I tried it out and fell in love with iTunes and its ridiculously simple user interface, and with the ridulously simple user interface of the iPod Shuffle and the nearly endless battery life. Since getting an iPod, I never listen to music or PodCasts on my PPC anymore. It is all a matter of what is best for the task, as I see it, and I NEED a Pocket PC to do my job in the manner I want to do it, and that is why I carry it. Since it functions okay as a phone as well, I do not feel the need to carry a phone. It does not, however, come close to the braindead ease of use, feel, and battery life of my iPod Shuffle, and since the iPod weighs nearly nothing, and does what it does infinitely better than the PPC, I no longer use the PPC for music and Podcasts, but there is no way I would ever consider an iPod as an adequate replacement for the other things I use my PPC for, since it does not do any of the other things at all.

allenalb

10-23-2005, 01:08 AM

griph

10-23-2005, 01:14 AM

"Is it the poor marketing, bad media apps, public perception, or do people simply not want an all-in-one for mobile media?"
At a guess - an iPod has 10/15/20/40GB - a Pocket PC just cant compete with that, and as such just cant store enough music. A Pocket PC + 4 GB SD Card is going to set anyone back big bucks and would still only compete with a iPod Mini available for less than £150. Some times being a Jack of all trades just means it is a master of none!

threedaysdwn

10-23-2005, 01:19 AM

Partly it's the name.

They've started trying to make Blackberry and Sidekick be trendy. But you'll never hear characters on the OC use their Sprint PPC-6700 Pocket PC Phone Edition. You'll never hear someone talk about Paris Hilton's stolen PDA2K.

Gerard

10-23-2005, 01:33 AM

iKay, so if we're all so iSmart, how about we invent a new iName for the Windows Mobile Pocket PC Phone Edition iThingy? Maybe some genius in Microsoft's marketing division will catch wind of a good one and start pitching it to everyone involved, and by this time next year these things will all fall under one catchy name. Could work...

Of course, i-anything is out, as Apple probably owns the whole concept. Nasty to borrow like that anyway, too much like cheap knock-offs. How Compaq then HP got away with iPAQ I don't know, unless they were first and Apple 'borrowed' the i.

Here's my first pitch:

the Kit

No? Some places, mostly UK and Australia, already associate that term with everything one needs packed into one bag or wallet or whatever. Origins probably military, first world war maybe. These things cart about anything and everything one might want handy, data-wise, so why not exploit that imagery in the name? Any other brilliant (lol) ideas?

DaleReeck

10-23-2005, 01:45 AM

What Griph said :) Also, it seems that PPC's seem more fragile than an iPod. Most iPods you can throw into a book bag or a briefcase or something and you would probably be OK. A PDA though would end up with a busted screen. Finally, simplicity. If all someone wants is a music player, why get one that also schedules, plays games and connects to the internet? You know, not everyone wants all the things that a PDA offers.

I've never owned an iPod as I am not a big music guy. But for those that are, I can see the appeal of an iPod or similar dedicated music player - relatively inexpensive, simple to use with tons of storage.

Deslock

10-23-2005, 01:49 AM

PDAs generally suck as media players. They're fragile and many of them lack capacity and/or battery life. The interfaces are often inferior.

Also, there are a lot more people with laptops and cell phones than there were 5 years ago... many of these people don't need PDAs.

As far as the iPod bashing goes, until recently I also felt the iPod was over-rated (despite its excellent scroll-wheel interface) and I opted for competitors' products (like the Rio Karma).

However, Apple has produced some excellent iPods this year. Even though the nano is somewhat scratch-prone, it's an excellent deal for 2/4GB flash + color screen + clickwheel in a tiny, thin, lightweight package. And $269 USD for a 4.8 ounce 30Gb audio/video player with clickwheel is also quite reasonable.

Having written all that, I use my X50v to watch video now and then.

mirskym

10-23-2005, 02:08 AM

mjhamson

10-23-2005, 02:11 AM

First, the PPC platform and devices are NOT marketed towards consumers. The PPC in its attempts to surpass the Palm was directed and has always been directed toward business and the enterprise market. The Palm always said its devices were consumer devices... until it tried to enter the enterprise market... after it was too late.

A device made for consumer consumption would be completely different in its approach and experience from the current onslaught. Though, I do not hold much confidence in Microsoft being able to introduce any consumer device that can evoke excitement and establish its own pop-culture.

In response to any inclusion to the talk about telephony abilities: any and all products coming out of Redmond are REDMOND centric. This is a huge problem across the board on campus. Redmond is a silo, then thoughts about the US... and maybe the rest of the world. during me tenor at Redmond, i tried to bring a valid point to an addressable position.. but it still falls on deaf ears. One example is this: SMS/MMS/EMS functionality in the smart-phones has always taken an after thought (or non-vital) priority to other features. The lead PMs concluded that the use of SMS was not significant enough to merit any level of priority beyond what it was. However, the US accounts for at best 2% of the market. Additionally, 20% of all revenue for a telco providers (on average) comes from messaging. The numbers are staggering. The end result is a team who builds products without a clear and precise understanding of the global market. (I can always try to dig up the email threads... I do have absolute proof on this one people)

Now you take this knowledge and apply it to a device like the iPod. The iPod is a consumer device that is simplified to provide the best experience to the mass. it meets all the requirements for its class and interpolates extremely well with the PC market.

So (and this is IMHO), until Microsoft and partners/competitors can understand (and intentionally) market devices to the masses that is understandable to the mass, provides the base essential functionality for its class (i.e. bring back the 'phone' in smart-phone) and interpolates effortlessly they will not win.

-Michael

(don't burn me for expressing my opinions.... we all have them)

hiatus

10-23-2005, 02:31 AM

some people like to get something they want working right out of the box,

PDA is not as simple, well you need to do some troubleshoot for activesync and stuff and general people just don't know how much a PDA can do or they would think about getting one.

shawnc

10-23-2005, 03:04 AM

Because iPods are "trendy," and thus have idiot appeal. No offense to people here who own iPods, I'm not talking about you. But there's a lot of people who buy iPods primarily because they're "cool" or a status symbol rather than because they think the features are good, or because they even understand the alternatives let alone have considered them.

this statement is 100% correct. it is also the explanantion for why the only-average-sounding iPod outsells much better media players. nearly all of the creative players have better sound, and many other players are superior in other ways (the cowon iaudio x5 is so much better, it's almost not believeable) and yet the iPod outsells them all.

Of all the inane comments this thread will encourage (and there will be many), this is the most humorous so far. If only ALL those shallow, technologically challenged folks knew better they would much rather purchase a PPC that even after 7 or 8 years still doesn't perform half of what it is advertised without significant investments of both time and aggravation. Yes, a PPC does much more than a music player, but most of what it does is of little or no interest to a large segment of the populace. And many of the things it does do it doesn't do very well, or at least not consistently well (still having that nasty little problem with alarms.....on an ORGANIZER). I'm sure that some folks buy ipods for status. But many, such as myself, buy them because they just work. They perform better in every way (including sound) and the form factor is just a killer. The thing that the MS camp never figured out (and still hasn't) is that with electronic devices, style IS important. Instead of making these gawd-ugly, brick-like device that perform all of these functions that most folks will never have any interest in, Apple (and Motorola with the razr) figured out that looks and effeciency are important. I guess I'm just shallow like that.

Make the argument on the technical merits of a PPC (though I think thats a though one to make when compared with the stunning execution of Apple), but please don't imply that the only reason the ipod is so popular is that because the majority of the buying public is just not smart enough to understand that the PPC is better for them. I've owned 5 PPC's and loved all of them. About 6 months ago I brought a razr and decided to try and load a couple of appointments into it. OH MY GOODNESS! To my amazement, it was easier entering appointments in my cellphone than it is in my PPC. No stylus, all one-handed operation. Sure, theres much more detail in my PPC's appointment, but much of that stuff is simply not important. All I need is some type of alarm (there's that touchy subject again) or notification to tell me where I'm supposed to be 10 minutes before I need to be there. And now I can do the same thing in my nano (and also sync to outlook for contacts, etc.). My point is that much of the functionality of a PPC is wasted on the majority of gadget buyers. That's just a fact. It's not because those who don't need those bells & whistles are less intelligent. We just want something to do what it's supposed to do. Is that really that difficult to understand?

PDANEWBIE

10-23-2005, 03:15 AM

some people like to get something they want working right out of the box,

I have to laugh at this you should see the number of "I can't get my ipod to connect to itunes" posts I see on other forums.

In my perception it is media advertising, mass appeal, and word of mouth.

How many times have you seen someone and seen them say I love my ipod it stores so many songs... then take that and tell me how many times you've heard someone talk about their PPC. While everytime I pull mine out I do the the inquisitive look and I show them what it can do they get excited... but to be honest with you I just don't think as many people 1) realize this type of device exists 2) really look at this type of device as an all in one solution?

While I do have to say there are 2 things about PPC's that make me want to not use it "just as an mp3 player". Battery life and storage.... every just MP3 player I have looked at has more of both...

I do have to say one thing though....

Given that modern PDAs have almost all the functionality of these separate devices, how has Palm and Microsoft/PocketPC developers failed in making PDAs a force in this new era of portable media devices?

I REALLY don't think its fair to compare a PPC's success to a dedicated MP3 players success in the first place because its like comparing an apple to an orange.

JMountford

10-23-2005, 03:50 AM

Personally I love my Samsung i730. I have other Pocket PCs as well. I can read books control my electronics, read emails, surf the internet, stream video, if I wanted I cound control my home remotely and use XM radio. There is the ability to do GPS and if you use an SD Camera for Video COnferencing on the road. I can convert My DVDs and Telivision Shows and take them with me or stream them from a Media Center Edition Computer. My PPC plays more formats that any ipod ever will or any MP3 player for that matter. There are even games. The only downfalls are that the games are not near the quality that they could or should be with devices that have this much power. ANd battery life can be a drawback. With that said how can a true technophile chose any other way to go than all in one?

ADBrown

10-23-2005, 04:14 AM

At a guess - an iPod has 10/15/20/40GB - a Pocket PC just cant compete with that, and as such just cant store enough music.

Maybe so, but how many people actually have more than a couple gigs of music? I have what I consider to be a pretty large collection, and all my music together totals up to about 2 GB. That kind of storage would be more useful if the iPod did other things, like reference, mapping, and so forth, but it doesn't.

Of all the inane comments this thread will encourage (and there will be many), this is the most humorous so far. If only ALL those shallow, technologically challenged folks knew better they would much rather purchase a PPC that even after 7 or 8 years still doesn't perform half of what it is advertised without significant investments of both time and aggravation.

I don't know about you, but none of my PocketPCs have given me that much aggrivation. Certainly nothing like dead hard drives, 1-year batteries, scratch-prone casings, or the like. My point? You can rag on any device for being problematic, even "simple" ones like the iPod.

(still having that nasty little problem with alarms.....on an ORGANIZER).

You do realize that this was fixed in all new models as of almost 2 years ago, right? 2003 SE and later.

I'm sure that some folks buy ipods for status. But many, such as myself, buy them because they just work. They perform better in every way (including sound) and the form factor is just a killer.

Performing better in terms of sound would be difficult, as there are a couple of PPCs which use the exact same sound chip. Or, for that matter, performing better than the legion of other dedicated MP3 players with similar capacity and lower price. Can you really tell me that most people shop around, compare all the options, and decide on what they prefer? Or do they think "iPod" and whip out their credit card?

The thing that the MS camp never figured out (and still hasn't) is that with electronic devices, style IS important. Instead of making these gawd-ugly, brick-like device that perform all of these functions that most folks will never have any interest in

The 4150 is ugly? The X51v? Personally I don't consider chrome on white to be that great of a color scheme. Perhaps, if PPCs were ever actually advertised, you might have a point, but they're not.

but please don't imply that the only reason the ipod is so popular is that because the majority of the buying public is just not smart enough to understand that the PPC is better for them.

Sorry, but they're not. Most people are wowed by the brand and the look, and never consider alternatives. It's why they ignore the fact that there are better machines, and it's why they grossly overpay for the high-end iPods. I have nothing against the iPod itself, but I think that it's ridiculously overpriced and sells mostly on flash, not substance.

My point is that much of the functionality of a PPC is wasted on the majority of gadget buyers. That's just a fact. It's not because those who don't need those bells & whistles are less intelligent. We just want something to do what it's supposed to do. Is that really that difficult to understand?

As I said in my original message, I'm not talking about people who chose to use an iPod given all information. But yes, the truth is that most people who buy iPods don't know about the alternatives. If they did, they wouldn't look so shocked when I showed them that my Axim has internet access, plays video, reads books, plays games, and shows maps. Are those all useless features that only gadget buyers want? Judging from the attitudes of those I show my Axim to, I would say no. So here's a hint: iPods are gadgets too. And just because Apple has sold you on them being "simple" doesn't mean that they're better than a more powerful machine. If you really want simple, go ahead. But the rest of your herd is a lot more ignorant about what else is out there, and if shown where the power is, they probably wouldn't be iPod users.

benyeap

10-23-2005, 04:23 AM

Simple, the reason is large storage capacity of the ipods. As u can the Shuffle does not sell as well as other ipod models coz its capacity is not great.

felixdd

10-23-2005, 04:29 AM

Three reasons: Style, style, style.

Apple is a genius at this. It doesn't matter that it's not top quality in sound performace, it's small and cute (especially the Nano).

PDAs are not as well advertised and are clunkier. You can't jog with one around your neck.

There's your hit right there. PDAs, as little as it's been advertised, has been slanted as a "work" device. You want to do work? Get a palm.

Then there's the iPod. You want to have fun, and be like that dancing-shadow-guy? get an iPod.

I don't have numbers to back this up, but intuitive sense tells me that much of the iPod sales are geared towards teens/young adults. How many of them want to do hardcore work, and how many of them want to have hardcore fun? The answer's clear.

Darius Wey

10-23-2005, 04:47 AM

Most iPods you can throw into a book bag or a briefcase or something and you would probably be OK.

If only the Nano was that resistant to blemishes. You only need to look at it and it will scratch itself. ;)

DaleReeck

10-23-2005, 05:06 AM

Darius Wey

10-23-2005, 05:42 AM

mtmra70

10-23-2005, 05:42 AM

After reading this board for 2 years, I now felt the urge to join and reply. This thread could not contain any more bias opinions towards iPods then a room full of /. nerds at a Microsoft convension.

Why does the iPod rule in the music world over a PDA? Value for cost. You get SO much more space on an iPod then a PDA. Plus, someone looking to buy a music player wont even consider a PDA. Why? Because it isnt a "music player".

I have owned my PDA for around 2 years now and the number of times I have listened to a song on it ranges in the 1-3 times area. Now, I have viewed videos on it many more times, but only to show other people, and I did not keep that video on the memory card for long.

I love my iPod because of the interface and it is purpose built. I am one of those people that just wants to buy something for a single task. My work cell phone was a simple cell phone, didnt need to have it do anything else. I carried it with my iPaq and never really wanted the two to join together.

Recently, I picked up a BlackBerry at work. This device is AMAZING because of the email funcitonalitly. No PDA can offer me access to email like the BlackBerry can. I actually receive emails via the BES server FASTER then my laptop hooked directly to the network (Outlook is running in cached mode). I will actually get an email the same time it is received on my desktop Outlook running in non-cached mode. At the same time, the BB seriously has me considering dropping the use of my iPaq. The only thing holding me back is the calendar and notes functionality. I use my calendar very heavily and the BB doesnt have a very good one. I think I may trim back from the 5555 to a slim line model to save some space though, I really hate having all these large devices.

And if there is any question as to what type of functionality I need or if anyone is wondering what I carry around in my backback at work:
-IBM T41 w/USB mouse, AC and DC power adapters
-40GB 4th gen iPod photo w/FM transmitter and various PC and power cables
-BlackBerry 7520
-iPaq 5555
-LanMaster phone/ISDN/network tester
-Gerber multi-function tool
-eye glass screw driver set
-various AV patch cables
-remote PC pointer
-Flashlight
-A/V adapters
-handfull of batteries
-spare laptop memory

I think that covers the normal stuff....

Darius Wey

10-23-2005, 05:43 AM

As u can the Shuffle does not sell as well as other ipod models coz its capacity is not great.

Really? I'd argue that it's more a case of not being able to control what you're playing. An iPod with a screen triumphs over one without a screen any day.

mtmra70

10-23-2005, 05:46 AM

So, dust particles floating in the air slam into the Nano and it scratches? :D :D

Heh, close enough. (http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple_Sued_Over_Nano_Scratching/1129913472) Bottom line -- protect it well, and you shouldn't have a problem.

The nano scratching is like the paint job on a $400,000 car. If you get the slightest blemish, people cry wolf.

I think this stress test provides more then enough proof the nano is a solid product.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nano.ars/2

Darius Wey

10-23-2005, 05:51 AM

I think this stress test provides more then enough proof the nano is a solid product.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nano.ars/2

Yeah, I've read that review. It was pretty impressive to say the least. :)

Sven Johannsen

10-23-2005, 05:58 AM

It's interesting that people bring up the ease of use of an iPod over a PPC. Would seem obvious that the iPod would be easier, it does less. The comment on throwing an ipod in a backpack, while a PPC screen would break seems irrelevent. The PPC has a touch screen, and is therefore more fragile. I can throw my Smartphone in a backpack with out worrying about breaking the screen. Which brings up the one handed ease of the iPod. That's by necessity, or by default, just as my Smartphone is designed for one-handed use. They don't have touch screens so their interface lends itself to and supports one handed use.

I think the success of iPod is primarily marketing, directly by Apple or indirectly by users, and non-users alike. I must say there is a dirth of marketing for PPCs especially when you compare it to iPod marketing. The audiences are vastly different though, even if they do overlap. The devices aren't even comparable, IMHO.

I haven't kept up, so I'm not even sure how much PIM functionality is built into today's iPods, but I would guess it's not even as much as the average phone today. The kicker is that if Apple kept adding functionality to the iPod, it would become more difficult to use, and suffer from poor battery life (comaparatively) as well. That happened to Palm. as they started adding color screens, more RAM, radios, more powerful processors to support audio and video; they lost that two week battery, ease of use and price advantage. That's just how it goes.

I don't think iPods are a threat to PPCs or PDAs in general. They don't do what PDAs are designed to do, and what people buy PDAs to do. I think PDAs, PPCs in particular could be a threat to iPods, and music/video players in general, because they could with a bit of help in storage, battery life, and marketing, do what audio/video players are bought for...and do so much more.

WyattEarp

10-23-2005, 06:27 AM

There are many good points here and one I feel is missed is that the iPOD fills the gap where the walkman left off. Once tapes were killed off so was the the walkman as we knew it. You could nolonger record music you wanted to hear. We then became stuck with Sony's discman the god awful minidisc and so forth. And how realy enjoyed carrying around discs of their favorit music all the time. The iPOD in a way has returned control of music back to the consumer. You can not only listen to what you want when you want but what order you wnat to hear it in. And more than that with the largest capacity iPOD being 60GB most people can put their entire music collect in an iPOD and never have go without hearing that favorite song.

Now add to the list video and pictures on and iPOD and you have a real winner. Yes there are devices better suited to veiwing video and pictures but most of thos waited to long to get infor the game. the iPOD has evolved and maintained the same name much like software usually does. But other video and music device manufactures keep changing the name of ther device every time a new one is introduced refusing to keep any kind of cosistancy. Making it more confusing for the consumer to pick a good product. Apple has pretty much kept things the same, making improvements and changes only when necessary. Since the original iPOD there are only 4 generations of them most manufacturers would have long discontinued it and probable have been up to number 20 by now. Like Creative Labs has 3 players and about 9 different models of each, the iPOD has 3. It's a music and video player it doesn't need to be complicated it just needs to work, simple. And of course good looks do help. No one will buy something that they can't bear to look at because they would never use it.

And what do iPODS have to do with PPCs... Absolutely Nothing. Two totally different devices. Just my 2 cents.

Prevost

10-23-2005, 06:43 AM

Of that other thread, I'll agree in this arguments:

- PDAs are seen as working tools, not entertainment tools. How many people are aware they actually CAN listen to music on a PDA? This is marketing fault coming forth from the beginning when Palms where known as personal electronic agendas (and couldn't do anything else). PDAs are still recalled as this!
- Comparatively, PDAs are no good for typical entertainment needs, hardware-wise. How many people would buy a 128MB, 5 inches tall PDA for music listening after knowing they can buy a 20GB, 2-3 inches tall, half-the-weight, easier-to-use iPOD, Samsung, etc music player for half the price of the PDA? At work, current PDA specifications can be good or at least enough (apart from battery life), but poor for personal entertainment.

Entertainment industry is succesful in making money because people want to rest and have fun, not because they want to have some more work to do. Anything promising you will have fun will success above anything else.

I will even say, PDAs are seen as working tools because (although common people is not aware of this) they actually ARE working tools. The only case I take my PDA with me when not at work is when I go on a long autocar trip, for music listening...but next time I do, I'll (hopefully) take along a Nano or a Samsung that fits (not "snugly") any pocket and that keeps playing many more songs for a lot more time.

petevick

10-23-2005, 09:25 AM

I offered both my kids my older pocket pcs (ipaqs). Both refused and opted for an iPod.
For the younger end, the iPod is far cooler than a pocket pc, despite the fact that the PPC has far more capabilities.

Gerard

10-23-2005, 09:32 AM

Odd. My kid loves her PPC. Whether recording and editing WAV files (with Pocket Mixer) for fun, authoring images in Pocket Artist, writing with her Stowaway (she's working on a 1000 word piece for a kid's essay contest this week), or playing a pile of games or music, she's rather fond of the range of possibilities. Then again, she's not much interested in what's perceived as 'cool' in pop culture. Guess we're raising another elitist.

griph

10-23-2005, 11:30 AM

Maybe so, but how many people actually have more than a couple gigs of music? I have what I consider to be a pretty large collection, and all my music together totals up to about 2 GB. That kind of storage would be more useful if the iPod did other things, like reference, mapping, and so forth, but it doesn't.

I'm note sure how many others have large music stores, but looking at the success of the large iPods relative to the Mini's I'd hazard a guess at quite a few. 2GB of music at 128kbs MP3 quality is going to be about 700 tracks - or about 35 CD's - I dont believe that is a large collection and the repetition rate of tracks for me would be unacceptable. I appreciate it is possible to scan at lower rates of even use WMA format and get that upto about 2000 tracks - or about 100 CD's - but personally I like to get my tracks scanned at 160kbs (near CD quality)and as I have 17GB of music the iPod was my first consideration, and I dont need to compromise. I have a number of friends who have 1000's of CDs - literally - (one of them has 3,500 CD's and even the iPod wont take their collection in total. 8O

The other consideration is battery life. I have a Phone Edition Device. If that was my only source for everything including music I do not believe that the battery life would be anywhere near acceptable. I commute to work each day - about 3 hours daily total - the iPod is an ideal way of listening to my music and helping the time go by - the PPC alternative just would not be an option for me.

I would be the first to support the PPC as an MP3 player - if it did the job as well as an iPod - it doesn't come close until they start bringing out PPC's with large format hard drives.

griph

10-23-2005, 12:13 PM

I think the success of iPod is primarily marketing, directly by Apple or indirectly by users, and non-users alike. I must say there is a dirth of marketing for PPCs especially when you compare it to iPod marketing. The audiences are vastly different though, even if they do overlap. The devices aren't even comparable, IMHO.
The marketing issue is very over-rated. Whilst it has obviously had an effect upon the success of the iPod - in NO WAY can anyone claim it is the primary reason. You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time ..., but if the iPod was not the great product that it is (and lets face it there are many emulators) no amount of marketing could continue the prolonged success of the iPod in the face of such competition if it were a mediocre device. The iPod does it's primary function extremely well, with a simple (idiot proof) interface, in a robust package that is also affordable. The arguement here is not the success of the iPod - it is the failure of the PocketPC to make it in a music market. The reason is self evident - the iPod can do, the PPC is a (very) poor alternative. As I said earlier - a PPC is a Jack of all Trades - it's primary functions it does well (just as the iPod does) - the issue is that the Primary functions of the iPod and PPC are different. Period!

rhelwig

10-23-2005, 02:23 PM

One reason I can see for getting a standalone MP3 player, that I haven't seen listed here yet, is the sweat factor. I would never try to exercise with my PDA, as I wouldn't want to be sweating all over it. A small and simple MP3 player, with a closed/sealed case is another matter.

Of course most people probably aren't thinking about that.

Gerard

10-23-2005, 04:06 PM

How about comparing the PDA to something besides the iPod? They share one or two functions, big deal. A decent PDA does dozens, even hundreds of distinct tasks depending on the users' skills and needs, so isn't it more relevant to compare sales volumes to those for notebooks or whatever other portable computers? This relentless returning to the iPod's features and iTune's functionality seems about as relevant as comparing the PDA to a paperback novel.

My PDA is my preferred location for reading the printed word, but it'd be silly to expect the majority to share this taste when most people do not want nor need all the other functions in the package. I expect a very gradual adoption rate, perhaps reaching 10% of the population within the next 20 years. Many more than that seems unlikely, but as awareness grows alongside device capability, capacity and reliability, the handheld will become relevant to a greater segment of the market. The iPod will fade away if it stays too simple, or evolve into something a lot more like a PDA to provide the better value users will inevitably demand over time.

Consider the cellphone of 1990, which delivered half an hour of awful-sounding talk time in a 2 pound package and nothing else. Now we expect more. In 2020, a handheld will provide massively increased connectivity with any number of device types. Storage and battery life will likely be non-issues - as much as anyone needs or wants. The iPods of today will seem clunky toys, when instead users will be more likely to use playlisted wireless access to personal and public central music archives, through a chip in a phone, PDA, car, solar-powered hat, or whatever. I expect those most inclined to use an iPod today will be using a pair of wireless earbuds and a business card sized piece of e-paper as the UI for customizing playback, if not voice activation.

On the subject of just how much music most iPod owners actually have on them... here's a paraphrasing of a quote from iLounge (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/survey-shows-ipod-mini-is-the-right-size-for-most/):

'A Jupiter Research survey found that 90 percent of consumers have no more than 1,000 songs on their PCs. 77 percent of the consumers Jupiter questioned said they’d be interested in purchasing a portable media player with a capacity of 1,000 songs.'

Another recently reported poll (which I've lost track of, sorry) of a few thousand iPod owners showed that the average disc space used for music was about 3.5GB. It didn't offer a figure for how (or even if) the remainder of those 4GB-80GB hard drives were being used. If we take the average track to be 5MB, which at 192kbps seems reasonable, then 3.5GB of music = about 700 songs. 1000 or so at 128kbps. Seems rational, from my perspective. And what's that? I'm a musician, who works on musician's instruments for a living, and whose wife is a performing/recording musician. Many of our friends are recording/touring artists. I have about 3GB of MP3s, mostly at 128kbps. I keep the CDs I like, but haven't got around to ripping most, and will probably not for a few years yet. Why? Because listening well is more important to me than listening everywhere, all the time. I use my ears selectively, and worry for those who are blasting their ears for hours every day. Ear specialist doctors are worrying too.

My PDA's SD card currently has half a dozen albums and two feature films aboard. I swap these occasionally. It also houses a few thousand photos, a few thousand documents, a few maps and games, some backups, maybe 70 installed programs, a couple of hundred ZIPped CAB files, various odds and ends. When flash memory is capacious and cheap enough I'll probably get around to choosing a better format than MP3 and ripping my CDs and vinyl, and dump that all to a few cards. Until then, music is a vital part of my life... which is about a whole lot more than just music.

Luzerman

10-23-2005, 05:25 PM

I've been using PDAs and HHCs since the beginning. I bought an Apple Newton 100 and every subsequent Apple Newton model. I owned numerous Palms and Pocket PCs. All these along with the laptops, pagers, cell phones, and associated other crap I got from work or thought would be cool. Then about 5 or 6 years ago I got tired of hauling it all around.

I think just about everyone is tired of hauling all kinds of misc crap around with them. Most people will carry at most 2 devices. Its why you see everything getting feature creap.

Your Ipod, phone, or whatever is adding features from other devices. Its because manufacturers have noticed that people want more and more in one place. Now if your device is not designed to be primarily a contact manager, phone, music player, or whatever it might not be optimal at doing it. That doesn't mean the device can't or that people won't use the features. I know many people that do use the extra features of the phone and many that don't. Most will use some subset of the extra features. Most of the kids that work for me already use their phones as their watches and don't carry watches anymore.

I know that I decided more then a few years ago that I would carry one device and have it do what I wanted even if it wasn't optimal. I actually switch between two devices depending on what I need. I have a PPC phone and a WM Smartphone. Both are passable at what I need and I have no problems with them in most cases.

I'm like most people. I don't have to have 60 gb of media in one place. 4 gb is more then enough for me.

I think the portable music player market as well as the camera market will start to shrink like the PDA market has as phones start to get better at doing all the things that these other devices do.

If I understand it the low end camera market has already started to fall out as camera phones take over from dedicated devices. As cameras in phones get better and better the consumer market will probably die as well. There will always be people that need or prefer a dedicated camera but the mass market will probably not be there.

As for battery life. On my PPC phone I can spend 4 hours on a plane reading a book while listening to music and still be able to make calls when I get to my destination. All in one small package. While if I had the multiple device solution I would have an iPod, a paperback book or 3, and a cell phone. That would include 2 chargers and a stack of books as I read pretty quickly.

I also compose e-mails and do a tiny amount of editing documents as well on the PPC. I have had to start carrying a thumb board that works well for this.

I do wish the PPC and the smartphone were better at a number of things and I do wish that the battery would last for a month like my old 2 AAA Palms did almost a decade ago but with a laptop I would be glued to an outlet as well.

spinedoc

10-23-2005, 05:54 PM

CAPACITY. This is one of the main arguments of the ipod camp. 80gb? Meh. How about infinity capacity? One of the hugest things most ipod users miss is the fact that PPC, especially phone editions can stream music and video. I would like to see an ipod that can stream my home cable channels on the go, my PPC can do this.

Additionally even if I had a large library of music I would get so sick of the same stuff. Streaming music has the advantage that you can hear different stuff, be exposed to new artists, and just generally be surprised by new random music.

And don't forget that I can also stream directly off my home computer, so I can easily have 300+ Gb of music and video to listen/watch.

Conclusively when you consider the streaming capabilities of the PPC the 80gb ipod suddenly seems quite lacking in its main perceived strength of capacity.

(PS for those saying the PPC's have no style, are too large, etc. Take a gander at the Samsung i730, what a beautiful tiny little PPC phone, easily puts any ipod line to shame with its beauty.)

TopDog

10-23-2005, 09:22 PM

I used my PPC Phone Ed. as my media device for a while (use about 1,5 - 2 hours every day on the train), but had some issues that made me purchase an iPod:

- Batterytime. I ended up having to recharge my PPC at least once a day.
- Navigation. The whole "turn-off-screen-while-playing" thing doesn't work very smoothly in any players I've used.
- Capasity and speed. I can never get enough space to store all my music on the PPC, and the hole process of getting the music on and off the PPC is too slow and manual. Microsoft; look to iTunes and learn!
- Stability. WMP has a tendency to make the whole thing hang at least once a day, yet it's the only player that really work with a Phone Edition device (pausing when phone calls, etc...).
- Headset. no good headsets without an adapter, ending up with lots of wires and stuff...

The iPod... "just works".

alex_kac

10-24-2005, 01:16 AM

Several reasons. I own an iPod and use it over my PDA at all times for music.

#1 - iTunes. The fact is I listen to music from my desktop first. I buy and rip CDs on my desktop. iTunes makes both easy to keep managed, shared, and just plain to do. The interface rocks. So its natural if I want to take my music with me - I just sync up to my iPod.

Many people ask why one uses Outlook with their Pocket PC . Why indeed? Its neither the best email app, nor the best calendaring app, nor the best task app, or the best notes app. But many people use it because it syncs well with a Pocket PC.

#2 - Cars. I have a special car adapter for my iPod so I just plug my iPod into the glove comparment and have music to go completely controllable from my steering wheel.

#3 - Ease of use. It is frankly FAR easier to navigate music with my iPod than any other music player I've tried, and definitely a ton easier than WMP. I can't even get WMP to work properly for what it does have

#4 - Storage. The iPod just has more storage than any PPC. Even with 2/4GB memory cards, I like to have certain CDs that take up 5 GB all together for my kids to listen to in the car as well as the 10GB of music I have to be able to switch gears from classical to pop to rock to country to christian at a flick of a playlist.

#5 - Battery life. This is the main reason converged devices of any sort fail for a few years before they get off the ground. Even on the best converged PDA/Phone I've ever used - the i730 - if I spend too much time doing PDA stuff with EVDO downloading constantly, I lose my phone time. My iPod gives me about 15 hours of portable playing time. My PDA could never give me that.

jlp

10-24-2005, 04:29 AM

Take a sexy looking PPC like the HP 19xx, add a thin 30 GB HDD inside (look how incredibly small the Archos XS200 is), add a dedicated multimedia button that brings up a Nevo type screen for users to choose: Audio, Video, Remote and PIM, ADVERTIZE IT CREATIVELY and to a wide audience and as a fun multimedia device and you get an iPod killer.

What the Palm LifeDrive could have been...

Also a good part of the ipod's success is due to the fact that Steve Jobs has a guru and selfmade man aura and that even your newspaper talks about a new ipod when it gets out. Not so with the too many MP3 players that iriver and creative come out with.

So all those things add up to the ipod's success:
- very simple shape/look
- sexy looking
- simple use: click wheel
- very simple and catchy name (not HRWT-140XWBT)
- same name used for every version
- Steve Jobs aura
- does one thing great
- does few additional and simple things
- few versions, just one or 2 capacities
- slow, incremental enhancements
- simple, not drastic DRM
- iTMS
- close secret up until its launch
- which creates lots of buzz, guesses and rants
- your newspaper talks about its launch

krisbrown

10-24-2005, 11:17 AM

griph

10-24-2005, 12:45 PM

Let's get a few things straight here, i-Pods are NOT cool, they are totally naff, having an iPod is the equivalent of owning a Peugeot 206 with wide wheels and a big-bore exhaust.

Only Goths and clueless trendies wear them in public, the sales figures do not match up with sightings on the steets, most iPod owners seems to keep their dirty secret at home.

Those idiotic white earpieces and leads looks so 80's, an original Walkman has more street cred, very soon the fashion Police will have to issue an 'Arrest on sight' bulletin.

Trust me...
Must sensible owners of iPods dump those naff white headphones and buy themselves a pair of decent Sennheiser headphones, and keep their iPods concealed whenever possible - so you just cannot base your scientific observations on the appearance of headphones alone!
Trust you? Come on you are a fellow englishman! ;-)

Dyvim

10-24-2005, 01:21 PM

I own several PDAs and use my PDAs mainly to listen to music, read eBooks, and watch videos, with a little PIM use thrown in. When I want to do more than just listen to music, I always bring my PDA with me and use that as my music player. But when I just want to listen to music and nothing else, I always take my iPod. Why? It's smaller, lighter, tougher, easier to use, has better battery life, holds more music, and is worth less and contains no sensitive information on the off chance that something might happen to it. I would never consider taking my PDA with me when exercising.

I used to be opposed to iPods on "general principle" (although I'd never used one) until I received an 4 GB iPod mini as a freebie and realized that despite my prejudices, it is a darn good music player. Now I have a 60 GB color iPod to house my entire music selection and serve as my home jukebox and am tempted to replace my aging mini with the new nano and go even smaller and lighter.

BTW, has anyone seen the screens on the new "video" iPods in person? They look absolutely phenominal to me. I know they are the same QVGA resolution as most Pocket PCs, but there's just no comparison. I guess it is the small dot pitch and the 262K colors. I played with one in an Apple store this weekend and watched a fragment of a "Lost" episode - it was just like watching a small television.

Janak Parekh

10-24-2005, 05:35 PM

Several reasons. I own an iPod and use it over my PDA at all times for music.
Excellent points, Alex. I used Pocket PCs to listen to music for years, then finally decided to get an iPod as a music player + large USB hard drive. I finally discovered what I was missing.

For those of you who have played with an iPod and decided it's not for you, that's fine -- in fact, the iPod has a number of limitations that other music players address. But don't assume it's just style. The iPod actually works extremely well, and if you haven't used one, it's difficult to appreciate.

Some of the newer WMA devices are finally coming close, too. Either of these blow the Pocket PC out of the water in managing large amounts of music or for listening for many hours at a time. That said, if you're only doing occasional, casual listening, the Pocket PC is a decent choice.

--janak

Janak Parekh

10-24-2005, 05:37 PM

Let's get a few things straight here, i-Pods are NOT cool, they are totally naff, having an iPod is the equivalent of owning a Peugeot 206 with wide wheels and a big-bore exhaust.
Perhaps so in the UK, but in NYC they're ridiculously hip.

Only Goths and clueless trendies wear them in public, the sales figures do not match up with sightings on the steets, most iPod owners seems to keep their dirty secret at home.
Nah, as Griph said, an amazing number of people carry iPods, much more so than those that wear it on their belt. I am one of the many that carry one... with a pair of black Sony in-ears.

--janak

griph

10-24-2005, 10:46 PM

Perhaps so in the UK, but in NYC they're ridiculously hip.
Cant speak for the whole of the UK - but as for the NYC there are a lot of iPods in London.

Nah, as Griph said, an amazing number of people carry iPods, much more so than those that wear it on their belt. I am one of the many that carry one... with a pair of black Sony in-ears.
There are just to many have nots who desperately want someone else's to risk wearing the white ear buds - besides - compared to a pair of Sennheisers they are pathetic! :-)

griph

10-24-2005, 10:54 PM

Either of these blow the Pocket PC out of the water in managing large amounts of music or for listening for many hours at a time.
Agreed one hundred percent.

Janak Parekh

10-24-2005, 10:54 PM

There are just to many have nots who desperately want someone else's to risk wearing the white ear buds
Interestingly, I have seen on at least 3 distinct occasions someone wearing the Apple iPod white earbuds plugged into a CD player or something else that's not an iPod. That is unequivocally pathetic, and I'm sure most iPod users would wholeheartedly agree.

--janak

griph

10-25-2005, 01:31 AM

DaleReeck

10-25-2005, 01:39 AM

So, dust particles floating in the air slam into the Nano and it scratches? :D :D

Heh, close enough. (http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple_Sued_Over_Nano_Scratching/1129913472) Bottom line -- protect it well, and you shouldn't have a problem.

I guess you were right about that Nano screen scratching :D

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/10/24/apple.nano.reut/index.html

Sven Johannsen

10-25-2005, 02:35 AM

That is unequivocally pathetic, and I'm sure most iPod users would wholeheartedly agree.
Yep! Why would anyone want to use the iPod earbuds, especially on something else? There's just no logic to this world! :-) Maybe someone with an iPod who got a decent set of earphones to use with it, charitably gave the white ones away to the less fortunate. It would be like finding designer labels at Goodwill.

jlp

10-27-2005, 02:06 AM

Either of these blow the Pocket PC out of the water in managing large amounts of music or for listening for many hours at a time.
Agreed one hundred percent.

That's why I suggested an HP 19xx type PPC with an integrated 20 GB HDD, Looking at how small the latest Sony NW-HD5 MP3 player is, it still would remain quite small.

Steve Jordan

10-29-2005, 01:11 AM

One thing this thread has indicated is that PPCs and iPods are difficult to compare... they're not apples and oranges, they're apples and pencils. (You guess which is which!)

That said, MP3 players are a great replacement for tape and CD players... they carry more music, play longer, and are more durable. That's why they sold initially, to average people, not just tech adopters like PPC users.

Secondly, the 1 factor that improves the sale of any MP3 player is ease of use, and iPod has that in spades. Third, the iPod is advertised more effectively than any other single MP3 player, so no wonder it's at the top of the heap, and we're not discussing an RCA Lyra instead.

So, utility for average music lovers, ease of use, and heavy advertising. Let's face it: You can't say those things about any PPC.

Imagine a PPC that you can simply speak to verbally, and get text or speech replies back. Imagine a PPC that allows you to say someone's name and contact info, and the device translates that into your PIM application. Imagine a PPC that you can simply say, "Show me the new Xzibit video," and it starts playing. Imagine saying, "Call Sofie," and it does. Imagine dictating a novel, and having it translate your speech into Word text, with no typing.

You want a device that's so easy to use, that everyone will want one? Make a PPC like that, and it'll sell as well as any iPod.

-----
www.SteveJordanBooks.com
Sci-Fi in a 21st century format. Wotta concept!

Targaid

10-29-2005, 06:40 PM

Ignorance is a BIG reason and no advertising or support is another. This includes within the computer industry.

How many PC mags, including the games mags even mention PDAs? Very few, and their coverage is dreadful. Usually they'll only mention PDAs when there's a virus scare on them. The games mags rag on endlessly abut the PSP & so on, but don't cover the PDA for gaming at all, despite many of them already doing what handheld consoles are only beginning to touch on, like Bluetooth & WiFi connectivity.

The PC retailers are just as bad. Go into a PCWorld and if you can find the PDAs they'll be in a corner at ankle height, bolted to the wall so you can't pick them up and the drones who work there can't tell you what they are, what they do or why you might pick one over the other. SO they're not even being advertised instore by the pepople who sell them. Hell, many computer shops don't even stock them. Dell only recently began including the Axim on their UK print advertisements and Never mention them in their commercials. If the people who make them won't advertise them what chance have they?

For those who say that the smartphone is killing the PDA, I disagree. The Smartphone IS a PDA that has a phone built in. It's teh same as with the ipod, people buy those because they're told what they are, understand a phone and get told they need them by salesmen in the Carphone Warehouse. How many people do you know that don't even know how to figure out how to turn on the BT on their phone, much less use it to send a business card? So, yes simplicity is a factor in why ipod outsell PDAs, too.

I've been having this conversation with my manager, who is a total luddite and, I think, a fairly common brand of Apple user. One who neither likes nor understands computers and goes with the perceived simplicity of the Mac systems. Despite me showing him my Axim playing movies, running SatNav, holding more than enough music, carrying photos, doing my accounts and generally making my life much easier he just doesn't want one, because "ipods are better." He has no rational argument for why. He actually has no more argument than that statement. He's never used a PDA & never will because no one on telly told him he needs one.

Still, I think the computer magazines and shops are the biggest problem. They don't support them so no one in the mass-market will ever will find out about them and what they can do now.

Sven Johannsen

10-29-2005, 08:45 PM

Imagine a PPC that you can simply speak to verbally, and get text or speech replies back. Imagine a PPC that allows you to say someone's name and contact info, and the device translates that into your PIM application. Imagine a PPC that you can simply say, "Show me the new Xzibit video," and it starts playing. Imagine saying, "Call Sofie," and it does. Imagine dictating a novel, and having it translate your speech into Word text, with no typing.

For a good bit of that MS Voice Command and some other third party apps, are getting there, but for all of it..show me a desktop that does it, and does it well.

Steve Jordan

10-30-2005, 02:41 PM

That's my point: PC or PPC, they have a long way to go before they are "easy" to use, as in, speaking to it like you would to a personal secretary (or HAL), and having it offer info to you as efficiently. That's why I said comparing PPCs to iPods is comparing apples to pencils.

A 1-function device like the iPod is bound to be easier to use than a multi-function device. I do think that it will take the voice-control capability I described above to make a PPC a "tool for everybody"... and would make it even more ubiquitous than any MP3 player. I do not imagine any other improvement to a PPC's interface could make it as easy to use as an iPod.

And I don't think any single "killer" app would make a PPC as ubiquitous as an iPod. Chances are, someone would make a 1-function device related to that "killer" app (something like... hmm... an iPod, say), and steal the PPC's popularity again.

Gerard

10-30-2005, 03:50 PM

wshwe

10-30-2005, 05:53 PM

When Apple released the 1st iPod I bought 1 immediately. The original iPod blew away the competition. Creative's hard drive player was a brick compared to the iPod.

I used to be an enthusiastic PDA user. My PDAs are now relegated to web surfing and GPS usage. Instead of carrying a cell phone and PDA I now carry a smartphone and when the occasion warrants a laptop, iPod or PSP. The benefits of using a laptop instead of a PDA boil down to screen size and application robustness. When seeing me use a PDA many of my friends have told they would have difficulty working with such a small screen. Even the best mobile browsers occasionally have trouble handling certain web pages and sites.

ebadger

10-31-2005, 06:32 AM

What about the iFriend? It's a 'killer app' sort of thing. Does one thing very well: you talk, it listens. Encouraging messages pop up on the screen, maybe it purrs once in a while like a tribble... and it looks great, and makes the user feel cool... in a Star Trek kind of way.

Sorry, but voice command is a novelty act for most situations. Can you imagine any sort of group situation, even with a group of 2, where voice command is going to be better than silly and distracting? Alone, sure. What about in a lecture hall? Staff meeting? Bus or plane? Unless you're meaning Doctorow-style subvocalization via implanted mic, we'd be surrounded by mumbling people with little boxes in front of their mouths.

It's a limitation of the hardware - us. Most of us can both speak and hear, and if we're all speaking to our machines all the time we'll all be irritating the heck out of eachother. Cones of silence, anyone?

1) 140M US citizens spend ~25.5 minutes per day commuting on their way to work in the morning. extrapolated, this is about 50 minutes per day, extrapolated further this is approximately 5 work weeks a year spent in the car. Voice Command is an ideal interaction mode for this environment. Some people spend significantly more time in an environment where hands and eyes free is important.

2) Bluetooth headset mitigates privacy concerns. Think of the device as whispering into your ear. For instance, imagine the meeting hall scenario: Instead of your phone blurting out an obnoxious midi rendition of beethoven's fifth, the words "incoming call from b badger on mobile" are whispered into your ear.

3) "if we're all speaking to our machines all the time we'll all be irritating the heck out of eachother" -- isn't this the typical usage case for the cellphone? The social error of annoying ones neighbor while speaking on the phone doesn't seem to have inhibitied the cell phone's proliferation any.

Gerard

10-31-2005, 08:23 AM

Oh right, cars. Sorry, I keep forgetting how many people use those. My bad.

Eddyfool

10-31-2005, 11:30 AM

This so difficult to use a PDA with a STYLUS (Palm or PPC),
or a TREO with a STYLUS + BUTTONS
or a HP IPAQ 4700 with a TOUCHPAD,
or a Nintendo DS with a FINGERSTALL-STYLUS,
or all the others with theirs very small keyboards.
The solution is the THUMB !
With vertical device one THUMB on scrollwheel or clickwheel (the reason why the iPod win!!)
With landscape device 2 THUMBS on screen.
The best device is the jackito and they sell a lot of their devices for vertical uses.
This is just a question of userfriendliness

Phillip Dyson

11-02-2005, 01:19 PM

I work in Chevy Chase MD (USA) and while I'm driving into work, I see plenty of people with white headphones crossing the street in front of me. So I don't think its reasonable to say that most people replace the included pair.

As a 10GB iPod owner looking to purchase another device, I find that I'm hard pressed to find something that will give me the ease of use my iPod gave me. I've already accepted that fact that another iTunes experience is just not out there. But I'm hopeful about actual devices.

I think that its tough to beat a dedicated music device when your talking about an active lifestyle (exercising, riding mass transit, etc). But if your looking something to carry you music from point A to point B (fill ut up with music at home, then sit it on my desk at work with a pair of headphones and power adapter), then a PPC would be great.

Using a convergence device without WM5.0 for heavy music playback would just be disastrous in my opinion.

Docwiz

11-06-2005, 11:42 AM

"Given that modern PDAs have almost all the functionality of these separate devices, how has Palm and Microsoft/PocketPC developers failed in making PDAs a force in this new era of portable media devices? Is it the poor marketing, bad media apps, public perception, or do people simply not want an all-in-one for mobile media?"

There's an interesting discussion over at Slashdot about why iPods continue to triumph over PDAs, despite the fact that the PDA is capable of more than just media playback. Sure enough, most of you use your Pocket PC for PIM, telephony, unrestricted audio and video playback, games, internet and email, and wow-ing your next door neighbour -- yet despite all those bells and whistles, the iPod continues to sell by the truckload. Why do you think that is?

PDA's stand for Personal Digital Assistant and is mainly for Business applications. These applications are very boring and on PalmOS where the PDA was invented the applications are even more boring and this is what most people think of PDA's. That they have simple and boring business applications and there isn't much need for them now that you can schedule appointments on your phone.

They have never been really about multimedia, games and anything interesting, just boring PIM applications and contacts.

Add the lack of a solid platform for running apps on any PDA (different Processors, OS's, bad compatibility) and then add the lack of marketing on top of that and it's no wonder PDA's have done anything.

IPOD is made from Apple, its stylish, its hip, it's more multimedia oriented and marketed everywhere.

Everything PDA's are not.

The people that own PDA's and truely know they can do more are in a very, very, very, very small minority for the very above reasons.

For people that want PDA's, just use your smartphones. Microsoft should kill them off and promote Windows Vista Mobile and make it fun, stylish, standard hardware/software compatible with PC's with a tablet, make it around $300-$500 US dollars, make multimedia and gaming stand out with a built in detachable gamepad (standard across all Vista mobile devices) and put massive amounts of marketing around this platform like they do with Xbox and you might have something there.

Why arn't mobile devices using OLED screens to save on batter power yet?

This market is so far behind and needs a kick in the rearend to get going.

alan2525

04-10-2006, 04:30 PM

Just a couple of observations regarding the iPOD v iPAQ.

I dont personally own an ipod but there's no denying Apple products are designed with a little more flair and thought to the user experience. They do what they do quite nicely.

I do know a couple of users who seemed to lose their entire Music Library as they somehow overwrote the contents of their iPOD from their laptop which didn't have any mp3 files on it.

They seem a little too focussed on making the thing - do what they think it should do and leave a little of the actual ability to change preferences hidden from the user.

I also know a user - not directly related to an iPOD - installed Mac OSX on their G4, There was a bit of confusion with iPhoto managing all their photographs and she inadvertantly lost those images.

It's all down to personal preference but with Apple if it doesn't work (and they don't always work) it can be a real pain trying to get it to.

There always seems to be a huge number of sequential updates to install, lack of hardware support. Poor Technical support. Lack of support for bundled "free 30 day support / trial editions of software" - limited trial offeres expiring prior to the actual purchase of the product etc.

Anyhow thats just a couple of issues I have with Apple.

Janak Parekh

04-11-2006, 04:10 AM

I do know a couple of users who seemed to lose their entire Music Library as they somehow overwrote the contents of their iPOD from their laptop which didn't have any mp3 files on it.
That's because iTunes only supports one-way sync by design. It's certainly a mixed bag. On the other hand, it's extremely reliable, more so than ActiveSync, and I've heard my share of data loss horror stories with ActiveSync, which is on the opposite end of the complexity spectrum.

I also know a user - not directly related to an iPOD - installed Mac OSX on their G4, There was a bit of confusion with iPhoto managing all their photographs and she inadvertantly lost those images.
I've gotta say, I use iPhoto a bit, and I don't really like it. Apple's supposed to have spruced it up in iLife '06, so I'll reserve judgement on that, but I find the previous iPhoto application mediocre at best.

It's all down to personal preference but with Apple if it doesn't work (and they don't always work) it can be a real pain trying to get it to.
Eh, I think this is true for most computing devices. I can't tell you how many times I've found Windows Media Player to be an utter pain with Pocket PCs.

--janak