HP Blocks Expansys From Importing non-European iPAQs

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/07/21/hp_wins_grey_case/">http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/07/21/hp_wins_grey_case/</a><br /><br /><i>"Hewlett-Packard has claimed a knockout win in its High Court action to prevent Manchester-based Expansys importing HP PDAs from outside Europe. HP said Expansys has been ordered to pay “substantial costs and damages”. The case will likely have ramifications for other vendors keen to prevent distributors and resellers sourcing product from outside Europe."</i><br /><br />While I think the customer is the one suffering from this, I also think HP has a right to determine what of their product is sold where. Companies spend a lot of money on marketing and logistics to sell their product and when another company sells product on the gray market which hurts the original company's sales, well, I'd side with the manufacturer. It is hard enough competing with your competitors. There is no point in having to compete with yourself.

[surur]

I so disagree. Competition leads to lower prices and better quality. If HP want to use differential pricing to gouge Europeans I do not find that morally acceptable.

I thought world trade was globalizing. No one stopped HP from buying their product in Taiwan and selling it in UK.

If HP Europe has to compete with HP America to produce lower prices and better service, thats only a plus.

Surur

[TheZodiac]

I think you are alone on this one.

If a company wants to import - or resell, they should be able too. If they were a distributor, or a partner and were selling osmething out sode of their product line defined by HP, then thats another story. Been there with another company I worked for in the past.

But the argument that its hurting sales is ********. It dosnt hurt their reasearch about where to sell products, where to release them and so forth. The more they sell, the more they make.

I never liked HP - now there is another reason. Jerks.

[thomas1973]

I so disagree. Competition leads to lower prices and better quality. If HP want to use differential pricing to gouge Europeans I do not find that morally acceptable.

I thought world trade was globalizing. No one stopped HP from buying their product in Taiwan and selling it in UK.

If HP Europe has to compete with HP America to produce lower prices and better service, thats only a plus.

Surur

Exactly my thoughts, Surur! I usually find Ed Hansberry's comments well founded, but here he's way off, IMO.


Thomas.

[jkendrick]

The issue is one of customer support, which can be very different from region to region.

[mmidgley]

Ed wrote:
> There is no point in having to compete with yourself.

That's exactly right! HP (or any other techno company) should not geographically lock products that would be usable elsewhere--companies like Expansys wouldn't exist if HP didn't position itself in such a poor way. How can restricting potential customers from purchasing a product help a company's sales!? If only minor changes would need to be made to a product to sell it elsewhere, why wouldn't a global company do it? I worked as a firmware engineer for a major competitor to Cisco systems, and know firsthand how easy it is to re-brand or otherwise modify firmware for a product to open it up to sell in "new" markets.

m.

[CookieKid]

The issue is one of customer support, which can be very different from region to region.

Ditto that. It'll wreak havoc with customer support, especially when it comes to warranty.

[SteveHoward999]

The issue is one of support which can be very different from region to region.


Well it bl**dy well shouldn't be. Nor should the prices. If there were no differential then there would be nothing for HP to complain about.

Besides - they are still selling the original item elsewhere for a profit aren't they? What's the problem?

Oh yeah, I remember ... Europeans have to pay 50% more for everything, and "support" is the argument for it.

Complete tripe. Profit is the reason for it.

Same reason why you cannot buy a new Ford Fiesta in Britain for any less than a huge Ford F150 pickup in the USA.

[mv]

I just can´t believe HP don´t want people to buy their products... it´s called globalization, bunch of... #### If they can support a line of pocket pc´s in a specific country, why can´t other lines be supported?

[CookieKid]

The issue is one of support which can be very different from region to region.


Well it bl**dy well shouldn't be. Nor should the prices. If there were no differential then there would be nothing for HP to complain about.

Besides - they are still selling the original item elsewhere for a profit aren't they? What's the problem?

Oh yeah, I remember ... Europeans have to pay 50% more for everything, and "support" is the argument for it.

Complete tripe. Profit is the reason for it.

Same reason why you cannot buy a new Ford Fiesta in Britain for any less than a huge Ford F150 pickup in the USA.

I'm sorry but your argument is full of holes. If they were to have the same prices all over the world, whose currency would they base t on? Yeah it's great for Europeans to buy their products when the prices are in USD but wouldn't the US consumer complain? Also, support centers are located all over the world for HP so let's use the UK as an example. If they were to charge the products over there at USD currency, wouldn't the wages for the employees there be much lower than the typical wages? The cost of setting shop in one country isn't the same for another. You say that they jack up the price because it's European but you neglect to mention that it costs more to operate there. As for the Ford comparison, the reasons the high cost is because it's expensive to import cars and if they were cheap, it would kill the country's automobile industry.

As for the lack of support, it's more of a deterent for consumers.

[Paragon]

Today's world is far too small for this narrow minded thinking to continue. In times past global corporations could inflate the cost of their product in certain geographical areas and get away with it. Those days are quickly coming to a close....wake up HP!

As for support issues...I don't think there should be many issues that can't be overcome. There are too many people floating around the planet these days to consider support being regional. If I buy an Ipaq in Hackinsack NJ, and spend the next 3 months working in Dubai, and my Ipaq craps out on me, I'm not about to send it back to Hackinsack.....hmmm..... come to think of it, if I buy an iMate in Hackinsack, I would have to send it to Dubai. :confused totally:

Dave

[SteveHoward999]

As for the Ford comparison, the reasons the high cost is because it's expensive to import cars and if they were cheap, it would kill the country's automobile industry.

You see that's where it all breaks down. Ford make those cars in Britain.


Do you realise a Jaguar can be bought cheaper in (almost) any country than it can be bought in Britain? ***where it is made***. Just as there is conversation here about grey imports of HP PDAs, you can buy a car in mainland Europe, brand new, and import it into Britain yourself, paying import duties etc, and still pay less than if you bought it new in Britain. And you want to know the killer? That car could easily have been made in Britain in the first place.


The point is, holes or no, dilemmas over which currency to use or no, the price differences from one country to the next are not only copntrolled by import duties, local wages or local fuel costs. HP and others charge what they believe the local market will stand.


-

[takotchi]

Everybody realizes where this crap is coming from, right?

Ever since Sony won a few days ago in the same situation regarding the PSP, now every gigantic company around is going to be crushing importers like little bugs just for doing what they couldn't or wouldn't: get a product to another country when the customer wants it (instead of 6-9 months later) or get a product to another country without gouging the bejeezus out of them.

I don't know why they care *this* much. Somebody, somewhere, is buying the product. It's not like it's stolen or anything.

Either way, these companies can have my imported electronics when they pry them out of my cold, dead hands. :evil: :roll:

[felixdd]

I'd hate to think what will happen to businesses like Dynamism, whose existence is dependent solely on the import market.

[garrans]

I too disagree with Ed's comments and the HP stance.
Lets be real here, the support costs are the same.... you're going to talk to somebody in Bangalore anyway.

But I do think that the importer needs to be the first port of call for a support or warranty issue. If you buy a US product in the UK, you should have 2 choices: call the US for support (and get routed to BLR), or call the importer. The importer should be responsible for shipping the product back to the US for warranty service.

[bdoherty]

HP sued Expansys earlier this year for importing iPaqs from outside Europe, claiming this infringes its trademark.

This is so wrong. Surely as the manufacturer, HP is infringing HPs trademark, not expansys. If I take my iPAQ to europe and sell it to someone, am I also infringing HPs trademark? I don't think so.

This is stupid. :twisted:

[MitchellO]

I reckon this sucks. This is just like Sony stopping companies selling imported PSPs in countries where they aren't yet released. If these companies want to import them and sell them, so what? The way I see it, it helps HP/Sony, as they are still selling the devices. Its not like they are being stolen.

I have had a PSP since April, and they aren't out here in Aus till Sept! I didn't want to wait that long, so I bought mine on eBay. So what if it came with a Jap power plug? It was swappable with an AU 8 plug.

I don't think its fair that companies like Expansys get in trouble. I mean, look at Dynanism. They do it, and up until now Expansys did. Why now? HP is probably looking for more money for R+D for their products.

[OneAngryDwarf]

Competing with themselves? I think thats BS. If Expansys is able to import and sell an HP product and make a decent profit it should be just as easy for HP to do it and probably make more money than Expansys would because a middle man is removed. If its true that HP is spending rediculous amounts of money for marketing/positioning and all that stuff well then its obvious that they need restructuring. If Expansys is able to do it without a problem and is so successful at it that it is hurting HP then there is something seriously wrong w/ HP not w/ Exp.
It is rediculous that HP is doing this. I hope they keep making terrible handhelds similar to everything they've produced in the last year so that I never have to buy from them again.

[Gerard]

I've got a problem with this as well. I'm no friend of Expansys', as they're been torturing me for months over a simple order, but this sort of thing is the meat and potatoes of the web store. Getting products from everywhere to customers everywhere is what web shopping is founded upon, is it not? So what makes consumer electronics different from Nepalese pottery or Australian ostrich-skin PDA cases or any of a million other products?

This seems more timilar to DVD region control than anything else. And that stinks. I know from a fellow in the Middle East that every second computer shop will flash the bios on a PC's DVD drive to be region-free for $20. They've been doing it for years. Movie fans in those countries want to see the latest Hollywood junk or whatever *when it's released*, not if and when the distributors deem it most profitable. Region controls messed my wife's Japanese-purchased (while she was there on a visit) notebook up for playing US/Canadian distributed films, because our kid hit 'Enter' once too often to the region-setting message. It was locked into Japan's region, and thereafter we had no legal choice but to watch Japanese movies on it... but I don't understand Japanese, and it's our only DVD player! So we did some legwork and found AnyDVD, which is brilliant, invisible, and lets us watch all the English language films we want and the odd Japanese one from her mother, just like normal human beings might wish to do with products they've legitimately purchased.

DIstribution controls are all about profits. Claims that this is a support issue are simply spin, put there in yet another vain corporate effort at blinding the consumers with a push for empathy. HP has offices practically everywhere. Support systems could be put in place to operate on an international basis in no time at all. So-called free trade is a sham in most instances, a curtain behind which the involved entities are better able to do business for maximum, conscience-free profits, while the public on the other side is left in blissful ignorance and imagines whatever the spin doctors tell them to be true. Well, the majority seem to be so gullible, if a shrinking majority.

I have seen far too many front page items here on Thoughts showing shiny new toys, only to read the last line which says variations on "of course, it'll be a long time, if ever, before this ever gets to the US." What a load of nonsense. If consumers in Hong Kong or Akihabara market can get the latest and the greatest, so should we all.

As for the pricing; good grief. Does anyone actually believe that pricing is fair from country to country? There are whole departments dedicated to swindling the most money from every market, studying currency trends, local market conditions, advertising cost variables, and psychological differences between regions, among many other subtle factors. They come up with a figure through complex machinations and guesswork, then sit back and watch the slush funds grow on the excess charges wherever the market lacks fierce competitive elements. A place like Tokyo is a tough sell, where everything made is available and thus prices are cheaper. Go to Grande Prairie, Alberta on the other hand, and expect to pay a couple of hundred extra for your shiny new PPC. Is the average Albertan richer than the average Tokyo resident? Is their labour that much less valuable that they should be forced to work so much harder and longer just to get the same product? Does transport of a 6 ounce PDA cost that much more, really, comparing locations? Nah. There's just not a lot to choose from when you're out of the hub, and companies know it, and abuse it no end. Consumers? Bah, corporate bigwigs and stockholders need them to enjoy ever-rising profits, but don't need to respect them, as the law can always be hired to step in and block any workarounds which might just tip the scales in favour of the end user. Corporations crying the blues. Hilarious, especially considering how easily companies like HP 'let go' tens of thousands of workers and call it a profit strategy, and share prices actually rise. What a world we live in.

[biglouis]

.... when I was selling all this stuff.

Fact is manufacturers hate their resellers. On the one hand they need them because they don't have a direct retail channel. On the other hand they hate them because they have to offer a margin in order for the reseller to sell (obviously).

To be fair a lot of resellers hate their suppliers (and their customers but that is another issue altogether). The whole supply chain hangs together because of specialisation. HP cannot afford to equip itself with a direct retail mechanism and Expansys cannot afford to develop and sell its own PDAs.

Really, these guys should learn to work together as opposed to against each other.

The Internet is all about "frictionless capitalism", you just can't impose virtual boundaries around arbitrary issues of geography. Yes, you can win a court case in a liberal democracy like the UK but try repeating it in some other countries and it won't work.

LouisB

[Shaun Stuart]

The issue is one of support which can be very different from region to region.


Well it bl**dy well shouldn't be. Nor should the prices. If there were no differential then there would be nothing for HP to complain about.

Besides - they are still selling the original item elsewhere for a profit aren't they? What's the problem?

Oh yeah, I remember ... Europeans have to pay 50% more for everything, and "support" is the argument for it.

Complete tripe. Profit is the reason for it.

Same reason why you cannot buy a new Ford Fiesta in Britain for any less than a huge Ford F150 pickup in the USA.

I'm sorry but your argument is full of holes. If they were to have the same prices all over the world, whose currency would they base t on? Yeah it's great for Europeans to buy their products when the prices are in USD but wouldn't the US consumer complain? Also, support centers are located all over the world for HP so let's use the UK as an example. If they were to charge the products over there at USD currency, wouldn't the wages for the employees there be much lower than the typical wages? The cost of setting shop in one country isn't the same for another. You say that they jack up the price because it's European but you neglect to mention that it costs more to operate there. As for the Ford comparison, the reasons the high cost is because it's expensive to import cars and if they were cheap, it would kill the country's automobile industry.

As for the lack of support, it's more of a deterent for consumers.


the cheapest online price (direct from HP) for the Ipaq 24xx series Pocket PC is;

$399 in the US
£276 in the UK

The UK price is the equivalent to $483 - a 21% increase

Are you seriously suggesting that this is all due to distribution and support - and that the profit margin is exactly the same ?? :lol: :lol:

[KuroNeko]

While I think the customer is the one suffering from this, I also think HP has a right to determine what of their product is sold where. Companies spend a lot of money on marketing and logistics to sell their product and when another company sells product on the gray market which hurts the original company's sales, well, I'd side with the manufacturer. It is hard enough competing with your competitors. There is no point in having to compete with yourself.

Yeah, and while we're at it, let's block all those nasty American products that are imported here to the EU, and that compete with our products and cost jobs.

You can't have it both ways. Either the market is free or it is not.

Note that Sony has a similar case for the PSP, and again copyright law is abused for this end.

A very bad development imo, can't think of a sound reason to defend this.

Neko

[elbowz]

I can't decide which is more stupid, the fact that HP made this particular move or the fact that some people think it's justified.

Firstly HP already has enough business problems to be going on with, the quality of their printers has sunk through the floor, they've become a bit player in the PC market and Dell is eating their lunch in the server market.

If Expansys are able to purchase iPaqs outside of the EU, ship them over here, make a profit and still sell them for less than authorised resellers then good for them. HP needs to sort out its supply chain/pricing structure to make it a less attractive business model.

If HP object to unreleased models being sold in the EU then they need to start shipping them in quicker.

As for the suggestion that support costs are the reason, b*llocks! Don't these things come with a worldwide warranty anyway? Are you really saying that a businessman who comes to the EU from the States (for example) should have to wait until he goes back to the US to get his iPaq repaired? Aren't HP's callcentres already globalised?

Seems to me that this case is more indicative of the poor state of HP's business than any legitimate worries about cost of supporting imported items.

Businesses are already blocked from this kind of behaviour within the EU (which is why its now possible for an Englishman to buy a British built car in Belgium, ship it, register it, pay the associated costs and still be thousands of pounds better off). If HP et al are prepared to cut costs by off-shoring jobs then we, as customers, should have the right to buy cheaper by off-shoring our purchasing.

[MitchellO]

Yeah, I think eBay is the way to go for this stuff now. I mean, who is HP/Sony going to target? Anybody can by something off eBay and have it sent anywhere in the world.

[geosta]

If anyone would actually like to read Laddie J's reasons for the summary judgement for HP in this case, it can be found here:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2005/1495.html

It is important to note the key issue which was undoing of the strongest of Expansys's three purported defences (the Consent Issue as Laddie J refers to it): the EU Parliament has given IP holders the right to prevent others from importing goods from markets outside the EEA region, even if the IP holder does not intend to make those products available in the EU. This is why Sony was able to stop the grey-market PSP's coming into England, but not into the US or Australia, because neither of those jurisdictions have bestowed on IP holders such a powerful right. (See Davidoff SA v A&amp;G Imports Ltd [2002] @ http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2001/C41499.html).

If HP et al are prepared to cut costs by off-shoring jobs then we, as customers, should have the right to buy cheaper by off-shoring our purchasing.

elbowz: you have it exactly right. This issue is bigger than HP, the EU and saving a few quid off your new iPaq. It goes to the core of 'free-trade' and globalisation: being a trans-national corportation and having your cake and eating it too.

They want the ability to source their goods and services from the cheapest and least regulated sources around the world and sell them at the highest possible margin. And they want to prevent you (the competition) from doing the same. This is market capitalism at its purest.

I must say that this decision couldn't have come at a better time for HP, it means that by shutting down the grey market for iPaq's in the UK they will sell more themselves and make more money. Maybe that will save one or two of the 14,000 jobs they are about to cut.

Or add another cent or two to their dividend next year.

Hmm, can't think which one they are going to choose.

[PR.]

About a year ago I bought 2 Dell 2001FP TFT Screens I looked on Dells UK site they sold them for £899 looked on eBay same brand new model from the US being sold by a bloke in the UK price £650! Thats nearly £250 each for a new plug and to ship it to the UK in a container with 500 others. Then of course you need to remember they weren't even made in the US they came from asia somewhere.

If expansys can't import them just create a new side company import them again and if HP close that then the CEO of Expansys and a couple of his mates can import them for personal use and put them on ebay "I ordered 500 of these from the US but when I got them I realised I only needed one" or "Just got married and every guest brought a iPAQ 4700 as a wedding present so I have 300 to sell".

[Shaun Stuart]

If HP et al are prepared to cut costs by off-shoring jobs then we, as customers, should have the right to buy cheaper by off-shoring our purchasing.

absolutley agree with this.

I would add that the view that companies should be able to restrict who buys their products is an interesting one - I understand that certain products should not be sold to children and that items that have not passed a specific regions testing requirements such as medicine should not be permitted -but can anyone elaborate on why a PPC should not be sold to anyone ?

If HP made more money on the Expansys imports then they would not be trying to stop this - so the key reason behind all of this has to be that HP simply want more control over pricing! Is that price fixing ? is that not illegal ?

[geosta]

If HP made more money on the Expansys imports then they would not be trying to stop this - so the key reason behind all of this has to be that HP simply want more control over pricing! Is that price fixing ? is that not illegal ?

'Price fixing' as it is commonly understood can only occur where there are two or more parties who supply a substitutable product (ie the exact same product eg petrol, electricity, bread) and those parties collude to keep prices artifically inflated.

What Expansys argued in court is that HP are abusing their alleged 'monopoly' on the supply of Windows-powered PDA's in the EU market. As Laddie J pointed out, a monopoly isn't illegal, the abuse of it is. And even if HP has a monopoly over MS PDA's in the EU (and I would seriously doubt that such a claim could be made out) and they were found to be abusing that monopoly, the remedy for such abuse is set by the court, not by companies importing products from outside the EU and selling them at a more reasonable cost.

Whether you agree with it or not, that's the law as it stands. And you (if you are), as a citizen of the EU, can change those laws. Slowly, granted, but they can be changed.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yeah, and while we're at it, let's block all those nasty American products that are imported here to the EU, and that compete with our products and cost jobs.

You can't have it both ways. Either the market is free or it is not.
That is exactly what a free market is - companies doing what they feel is in their best interest, with pressure from consumers and competitors. It ceases to be free when the government steps in and changes the rules. The only thing the government did here, as the judicial system, is evaluate the situation at the request of one company, evaluate the law and the reseller agreement, and determine that one company was violating the rules and told them to get back in line.

And as for the strawman many here seem to be creating, reread my original post. HP is, in my opinion, within their right to say where their product is sold. I also said the customer is suffering, but not unduly so. This isn't pharmaceuticals or other items necessary for life, they are PDAs. If HP wants to shoot themselves in the foot and create ill will by selling feature deficient products in some regions, that is their choice and their right. It will come back to haunt them. That is the pressure that will be felt from consumers and the competition.

[rhelwig]

elbowz: you have it exactly right. This issue is bigger than HP, the EU and saving a few quid off your new iPaq. It goes to the core of 'free-trade' and globalisation: being a trans-national corportation and having your cake and eating it too.

They want the ability to source their goods and services from the cheapest and least regulated sources around the world and sell them at the highest possible margin. And they want to prevent you (the competition) from doing the same. This is market capitalism at its purest.


"market capitalism" seems to be a nonsense phrase. I think what you mean is "crony capitalism", where business uses the power of government to prevent competition or otherwise ensure profitability. This is different from "lasseiz faire capitalism", which is what most people in this discussion want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

[Ed Hansberry]

I can't decide which is more stupid, the fact that HP made this particular move or the fact that some people think it's justified.

Could we discuss this rationally rather than insinuating that anyone that disagrees with a particular position is essentially stupid? :?

[MitchellO]

"I ordered 500 of these from the US but when I got them I realised I only needed one" or "Just got married and every guest brought a iPAQ 4700 as a wedding present so I have 300 to sell"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Yorker]

And as for the strawman many here seem to be creating, reread my original post. HP is, in my opinion, within their right to say where their product is sold. I also said the customer is suffering, but not unduly so. This isn't pharmaceuticals or other items necessary for life, they are PDAs. If HP wants to shoot themselves in the foot and create ill will by selling feature deficient products in some regions, that is their choice and their right. It will come back to haunt them. That is the pressure that will be felt from consumers and the competition.

Very easy for you to say when you are in the cheaper area! These aren't feature deficient anyway - these are the same products with different languages.
In the UK we are constantly ripped off on cars and electronics among other things. As for DVD region coding don't get me started. Now the law is protecting the mega-corps once again. :(

[Yorker]

I so disagree. Competition leads to lower prices and better quality. If HP want to use differential pricing to gouge Europeans I do not find that morally acceptable.

I thought world trade was globalizing. No one stopped HP from buying their product in Taiwan and selling it in UK.

If HP Europe has to compete with HP America to produce lower prices and better service, thats only a plus.

Surur

Eeek! I'm agreeing with Surur! :lol:

[SteveHoward999]

I moved to Mississippi from the UK a little over a year ago. It is frightening how everything here is driven by the corporate right to make money however they choose, and bulldoze anyone or anything in their path with legal backing - or political blind eye following a healthy bribe - oops - contribution to campaign finds....


And this is another sign of the same thing spreading to Europe.

Worng, wrong, wrong!!!

--

[PDANEWBIE]

/off topic explination of something read

Now the law is protecting the mega-corps once again.

Other than when the corperation has impacted upon working lives of its employees/environment name a time when when the law won't be protecting the mega-corps?

Its simple to state - the mega-corps make the money, the money pays the taxes and the government, the government and the laws get shifted in their favor... Vicious circle and until you get a government that is not revenue based your not going to get out of the circle (which ain't gonna happen cause I don't know a single politian that is "in it for their country").

/Back on topic

With this being said I can understand support costs for an imported item but a simple stipulation that the person thats "out of that market" has to pay shipping both ways and initiate all calls would then squash any problems with this scenario as I see it.

[surur]

I'm no great fan of expansys either. They have messed around enough of my orders also (yet I keep returning to them, because they are the only ones with the kit I want).

Now if this was simply about breaching a resellers contract then of course HP is fully in their rights. However if this actually means that a corp can tell me what I can do with something after I paid full price for it, I take serious exception.

I think this whole thing started after ASDA tried to sell LEVI jeans at cut price a few years ago, and told the court their expensive jeans being sold cheaply and in a pile in a supermarket was hurting their image. The court agreed, and that is why its a trademark issue. Pity the court did not side with the consumer however.

I wonder if eventually ebay will be tarred with the same brush as P2P, as a device that hurts the corps and causes poor HP workers to lose their jobs.

Ed, if you put up a poll I do not think you will find many agreeing with your position.

Surur

[MitchellO]

In the UK we are constantly ripped off on cars and electronics among other things. As for DVD region coding don't get me started. Now the law is protecting the mega-corps once again. :(

Same here! For example, over in the US you can get an Inspiron 700m laptop for only US$750 with one of their constant coupons. Over here in Aus, you get a less featured, less powered 700m for AU$1800! How can this be????

And DVD region coding is a joke. I mean, if it can be sold in one market cheap enough to be bought at retail and then resold in another country, while making a profit, why is this so???

[elbowz]

I can't decide which is more stupid, the fact that HP made this particular move or the fact that some people think it's justified.

Could we discuss this rationally rather than insinuating that anyone that disagrees with a particular position is essentially stupid? :?

Sorry Ed, my intention was to convey that I thought the view stupid, not the person holding it.

[KuroNeko]

Its simple to state - the mega-corps make the money, the money pays the taxes and the government, the government and the laws get shifted in their favor... Vicious circle and until you get a government that is not revenue based your not going to get out of the circle (which ain't gonna happen cause I don't know a single politian that is "in it for their country").

Actually, here it's a bit different (BE) - big corporations are situated in regions where there's little to no control on taxes. If the tax office - which is very understaffed - does make a control, they check little companies and private persons, as this tales little effort. Big corps pay no taxes at all, the risk of getting caught is so slim and if it comes to the worst, they still have an army of tax lawyers to bail them out.

Government gets paid by individual citizens. Government officials and politicians get bought - legally (lobby) or illegally - by corporations. Citizens get screwed over twice, by their own govermenment AND by corporations.

The result is a poorly managed country, tax evasion has become a national sport (in which mainly the rich can participate), laws that are no longer a representation of the people's will (there goes democracy) and agrowing number of disgruntled citizens who voice their frustration by voting for right wing extremists.

Where all this will end is clear, and big corporations have a heavy responsibility in undermining democracy.

Neko

[PR.]

of course there isn't actually any free trade anyway, e.g. the US taxing cheap steel imports to keep US steel workers in jobs. Also Europe has resumed their restrictions on cheap clothing imports from China because they were so much cheaper than European made clothes.

[mv]

Want to hear another ridiculous thing? HP offers worldwide support for what it sells. Back in 2000, i bought an HP Jornada 548 when travelling to USA... a 6 months later, when the product finally arrived here, costed twice as much. I needed support once... i went to their local offices and they did respected their worldwide warranty, no matter if the product is sold or not in that country. We consumers from around the world must put a end to this!! I´m very angry having to pay sometimes prices that are way too high... i´m looking to buy now a Canon S1, wich is listed for US$299 in amazon... and sells for US$600 here in Chile!!! Amazon won´t send it to me, but no problem, we people from Chile (and other parts of the world like latin america and spain) use a company called lanbox, wich gives you a free real street adress in miami, receives your stuff, takes cares of shipping to your country, charges not that much, pay your duties and take care of customs for you, and you still save money. The even tell you when they are good offers, just a week ago, i received an e mail offering me to buy an iPOD that way... all cost included, even taxes (Guys, we even have a free trade agreement with you people) still 30% cheaper than Chile. Of course, they advise me not to buy product from companies that do not sell in Chile, because then support would be an issue. But in any way that can be an issue with HP. The only issue is that USA is a more competitive market, and Chilean market is not, and for that they want us to pay more. But that´s not all... if in Chile we pay 50% to 100% more, in Argentina sometimes is 300% !!!!!! And guys, we well healed latin american make no more than US$60.000 a year... and i´m talking doctors and lawyers, a school teacher can´t even buy food.

Please don´t think that i hate someone, or this is a hate post, or anything like that. I´m just a geek, like everyone else in this forums, wich hates to pays doubles when i earn a fraction, and not because it´s has to be this way, but just because some guys in some place are too greed.

:| :| :| :| :| :| :bawl: :pukeface2: :pukeface2:

[Duncan]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

[SteveHoward999]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

Piffle.

I think the majority of customers want something at an affordable price. Not everybody can be bothered flogging something on eBay for a quick £30 profit. It's not worth the hassle.

--

[Duncan]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

Piffle.

I think the majority of customers want something at an affordable price. Not everybody can be bothered flogging something on eBay for a quick £30 profit. It's not worth the hassle.

--

In what way is this piffle? I've watched Expansys and others do it, time after time...! How did you manage to read my post as saying: 'customers don't want things at an affordable price'?

Believe me - if Expansys and others were getting in grey imports to sell them more cheaply - I'd be first to say it was a good thing. The simple fact is - they aren't.

OT - On the subject of higher prices in the UK etc. Personally I think they are higher than they need to be. However - our prices will always be a little higher because a) we have consumer legislation in Europe that is second to none (2 year consumer warranties, strong protection re. goods faulty on shipping etc.) and b) because we have VAT - and whether we like it or not VAT is used to pay for things we'd be loathe to be without as a nation.

That said - things should not be as much as 50%+ higher than in the US.

[SteveHoward999]

In what way is this piffle? I've watched Expansys and others do it, time after time...! How did you manage to read my post as saying: 'customers don't want things at an affordable price'?

You said customers don't benefit from the low prices of grey imports. I say the do benefit from the low prices.

[latinware]

The issue is one of customer support, which can be very different from region to region.

Customer support it's world wide. I bought from Expansys, had problems twice with the hx4700 here in Colombia and HP Colombia took care of the problem and exchanged.

That's why HP it's hurting for business, because the way they do business. Too much bureacracy. They should let Expansys sell all over the world, why not and if they sell above standard prices that's only a buyers problem. I bought my hx4700 from Expansys just because in Colombia they do not sale English versions! What -HP- do with this attitude it's to let other brands take their business.

[Duncan]

In what way is this piffle? I've watched Expansys and others do it, time after time...! How did you manage to read my post as saying: 'customers don't want things at an affordable price'?

You said customers don't benefit from the low prices of grey imports. I say the do benefit from the low prices.

This is what happens when you don't read the post you are responding to properly and are too eager to make a knee-jerk response. Sheesh - is that too much to ask?

I did not say: 'customers don't benefit from the low prices of grey imports'. I said: 'Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports'.

See the difference? :roll:

[Yorker]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

And? Any early adopter knows that's part of the game. Once an item then becomes available locally then the old grey imports drop in price and you then have the choice of getting the local product or cheapter grey import. Still don't see the problem.

[Duncan]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

And? Any early adopter knows that's part of the game. Once an item then becomes available locally then the old grey imports drop in price and you then have the choice of getting the local product or cheapter grey import. Still don't see the problem.

Because - and I can't believe I'm having to spell this out - people have been arguing, in this thread, that grey imports lead to lower prices. I pointed out that in the case of companies like Expansys this is not the case.

NOTE: That does not mean I think grey imports are bad. It also does not mean that I think offering goods to early adopters is a bad thing. It means (and I know this is a radical idea) that I am responding to the subject of this thread and the inerpretation that some have put on it. :roll:

[latinware]

Another reason for buying at Expansys: Here in Colombia an iPaq hx4700 cost US$720 including taxes -pricing directly from HP Colombia-, I bought mine at Expansys for US$540 (aprox) on November 2004. So, it's a good deal for those who live in Colombia.

[SteveHoward999]

This is what happens when you don't read the post you are responding to properly and are too eager to make a knee-jerk response. Sheesh - is that too much to ask?

I did not say: 'customers don't benefit from the low prices of grey imports'. I said: 'Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports'.

See the difference? :roll:

I say they do benifit. They get lower prices.

Who's not reading what?

[PPCMD]

Expansys was offering and sold the HW6515 that they exported out of the UK to their US warehouse. So is HP going after that too. The 6500 has been launched just about everywhere except the US , even Australia will get it next month.

[Duncan]

This is what happens when you don't read the post you are responding to properly and are too eager to make a knee-jerk response. Sheesh - is that too much to ask?

I did not say: 'customers don't benefit from the low prices of grey imports'. I said: 'Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports'.

See the difference? :roll:

I say they do benifit. They get lower prices.

Who's not reading what?

You clearly aren't reading what I wrote. You are disagreeing with something I haven't said. And - I did point out how you had misread me above.

I was *very* specific - namely that companies like Expansys get grey imports only to offer them early for inflated prices. Indeed - Expansys rarely, if ever, offer lower prices than their competitors.

Somehow my words, when you look at them, are being translated into: 'customers don't benefit from grey imports'. I haven't said that - namely because a) I don't think it and b) it wouldn't be correct. I have bought grey imports myself from those people who do use them to undercut the opposition or, occasionally, to get them early despite an inflated price.

:roll:

[Ed Hansberry]

You clearly aren't reading what I wrote. You are disagreeing with something I haven't said.
But Duncan, it is so much easier for someone to destroy your argument of they rephrase it or even redefine it!

[Duncan]

You clearly aren't reading what I wrote. You are disagreeing with something I haven't said.
But Duncan, it is so much easier for someone to destroy your argument of they rephrase it or even redefine it!

You can say that again...!

[SteveHoward999]

I was *very* specific - namely that companies like Expansys get grey imports only to offer them early for inflated prices. Indeed - Expansys rarely, if ever, offer lower prices than their competitors.


You said that before? Really?


--

[MatthewNCB]

Personally i agree that it is the consumer who has suffered here, but i'd dont really hold much against HP.

I don't think this is a Corporate decision by HP. It is more likely that there is a HP Country Manager out there, who is under a load of pressure (As all of HP is) to hit a number. He's then looked at all the marketing budget he has spent and the spend he has for sales staff, and wondered why he isnt hitting his number. Meanwhile some other Country Manager is sitting pretty spending nothing, but getting recognised for the huge number he does every quarter, and getting paid big $.

Country Manager 1 is just doing something about it by making sure sales in his region, are recognised as his

I know that this isn't much comfort for you and me the buyer. But this is the way it works and many IT Vendors operate in a similar way.

Most people are asking for HP to offer uniform pricing at a global level, Do you really think that would be cheaper price? All they are doing is capitalizing on areas where they can make more profit. I'm sure that a large number of people are paid to do that, to one degree or another in their day to day job, I know I am.

[Duncan]

I was *very* specific - namely that companies like Expansys get grey imports only to offer them early for inflated prices. Indeed - Expansys rarely, if ever, offer lower prices than their competitors.


You said that before? Really?


--

Yes. Twice now.

[latinware]

Personally i agree that it is the consumer who has suffered here, but i'd dont really hold much against HP.

I don't think this is a Corporate decision by HP. It is more likely that there is a HP Country Manager out there, who is under a load of pressure (As all of HP is) to hit a number. He's then looked at all the marketing budget he has spent and the spend he has for sales staff, and wondered why he isnt hitting his number. Meanwhile some other Country Manager is sitting pretty spending nothing, but getting recognised for the huge number he does every quarter, and getting paid big $.

Country Manager 1 is just doing something about it by making sure sales in his region, are recognised as his

I know that this isn't much comfort for you and me the buyer. But this is the way it works and many IT Vendors operate in a similar way.

Most people are asking for HP to offer uniform pricing at a global level, Do you really think that would be cheaper price? All they are doing is capitalizing on areas where they can make more profit. I'm sure that a large number of people are paid to do that, to one degree or another in their day to day job, I know I am.

You're right! that's the way Country Managers work, at least here in Colombia. I am an Affiliate/Reseller of HP Colombia. Of course they worry when the can not sell certain amount of items, and maybe it happenes all over the world not only with HP but with the rest of brands.

What's Grey Market? - The idea of Gray Market it's when in this case HP, ask their Reseller to buy certain amount of product a year and so they purchase xxxx quantity and from that order they resale to other resellers or sellers the eccess -merchandise the original purchaser can not sale-. Sometimes they sell the eccess for less money than the original cost.

That's what I understood of what Grey Market is, it was part of my experience when I worked in New York at a photography equipment store where the grey market it's part of the everyday business. If someone has a different meaning go ahead and iluminitate us.

[SteveHoward999]

You said that before? Really?


--

Yes. Twice now.


You know, it's easy to misinterpret anything when the only medium is text. So let's start back at the beginning, before you started adding other replies to other people.

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

Piffle.

I think the majority of customers want something at an affordable price. Not everybody can be bothered flogging something on eBay for a quick £30 profit. It's not worth the hassle.

--


You said

"Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports."

To which I say - yes they do.

Then you said

"What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. "


for as much money as they can get away with


I didn't and don't translate that an meaning "inflated prices" which is what you later contend.

Also in later posts you stress that you are meaning companies like Expansys, yet go on to make the point that you think Expansys inflate their prices, making it plain to me that you are in fact having a go at Expansys, and not companies like them.


So how about this - my understanding of what you said originally was the following:-

Customers don't benefit from Expansys and similar companies getting grey imports.
The customers get the grey imports so they can get them first - and then sell them off to the highest bidder at a profit.


So my original response was ... rubbish, of course people benefit from grey imports, no matter who imports them or how. They hand over money for something thay want. They do this becuase they have a perceived benefit ... they wanted the product and were willing to spend money on it.

My response (to my interpretation of what you said) continued to say that I don;'t think most cusomers care about then turning around and selling their gear to the highest bidder.


Now - you later make it clear that what you meant was Expansys sell things at a price higher than is fair or proper - but that was not clear to me in your original post, and it still is not.


By the way - where in my comments did you manage to find this interpretation of what I said in that first response to you?

"How did you manage to read my post as saying: 'customers don't want things at an affordable price'?

In other words - how did you read my post as saying I think you said customers don't want things they can afford?

Besides - if things were not affordable they would not be bought anyway, right???


Anyway - it's friday.... pop out and have a couple of beers with the lads and relax will ya?

--

[Duncan]

You know, it's easy to misinterpret anything when the only medium is text. So let's start back at the beginning, before you started adding other replies to other people.

It is very easy to misinterpret text - but my post as whole was pretty clear.

You said

"Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports."

To which I say - yes they do.

Except that I said 'like Expansys' right form the start. That means, clearly, not all companies - just those like Expansys. The subject of the thread. Specifically.

Then you said

"What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. "


for as much money as they can get away with


I didn't and don't translate that an meaning "inflated prices" which is what you later contend.

I can't help how you interpet what I said but my emphasis made my meaning clear. Obviously every comapny wants to make a profit. My emphasis should have made it abundantly clear that I meant inflated prices. Again - I contend that more than a skim reading of my post would have made that obvious to anyone.

Also in later posts you stress that you are meaning companies like Expansys, yet go on to make the point that you think Expansys inflate their prices, making it plain to me that you are in fact having a go at Expansys, and not companies like them.

I said 'like Expansys' in my first post - whcih you quoted above. Not just in later posts - in my first post. I ws having a go at Expansys *and* companies like them. Thus my choice of words. Companies that behave like Expansys. It couldn't be any clearer.


So my original response was ... rubbish, of course people benefit from grey imports, no matter who imports them or how. They hand over money for something thay want. They do this becuase they have a perceived benefit ... they wanted the product and were willing to spend money on it.

My response (to my interpretation of what you said) continued to say that I don;'t think most cusomers care about then turning around and selling their gear to the highest bidder.

Really? Your orignal response said: 'You I think the majority of customers want something at an affordable price.'

In other words - you talked *only* of 'low prices' as a benefit. So - no, that wasn't your orignal response - but your response does make it clear that you knew full well I was referring the 'price benefit' - as being not one you get from Expansys - and nothing else. As the whole of my original post makes clear.

Now - you later make it clear that what you meant was Expansys sell things at a price higher than is fair or proper - but that was not clear to me in your original post, and it still is not.

Not my problem. It was clear, and would be to 99% of people - you misread it anyway.

By the way - where in my comments did you manage to find this interpretation of what I said in that first response to you?

"How did you manage to read my post as saying: 'customers don't want things at an affordable price'?

In other words - how did you read my post as saying I think you said customers don't want things they can afford?

Er - You said: 'I think the majority of customers want something at an affordable price.'

How else do I read that?

Anyway - it's friday.... pop out and have a couple of beers with the lads and relax will ya?

I'm perfectly relaxed - I just get irritated with people responding to posts they haven't bothered to read properly. I referred to Expansys and companies 'like them'. I made it clear that they import to sell at inflated prices. What was there to misunderstand? Really?

[SteveHoward999]

I'm perfectly relaxed - I just get irritated with people responding to posts they haven't bothered to read properly. I referred to Expansys and companies 'like them'. I made it clear that they import to sell at inflated prices. What was there to misunderstand? Really?


Sheesh. Even when I take the time to show you *exactly* how *I* misinterpreted your post, you still get off on one, making it plain how perfectly clear your post was and how it is not possible to misinterpret it.

I was happy to make it abundantly clear to you how I had read different meaning into what you said ...

And then go on to misinterpret what I say, proving my point nicely.

Just for the record, clear communication in the text medium is the responsability of both the writer and the reader.



So to close, I am forced to comment again on my interpretation of what you have to say today. [b]PIFFLE[/b


Have a great wekend.

--

[thomas1973]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

"for as much money as they can get away with", you mean like EVERY other company out there?!?

All Companies work out a price at which they get maximum profit. Set the price too high, and not enough people buy, set the price too low, and you're selling yourself short.

Now, in a free marked, this max price will be squeezed because new players will enter the marked if there's a very large profit to be had. Then, all these players will fight it out, until there's an equilibrium with players, marked, units sold and the price of the unit.

It is this free marked mechanism that HP is trying to get around, keeping the cake to themselves. I don't mind people trying to make a profit, but looking at the facts of this case, it's very clear HP is making a supernatural profit, as they have to 'artificially' keep the competition out.


Thomas.

[MatthewNCB]

My view on the the last few comments ( But i'm not taking sides)

Peoples only complaint about Expansys only ever seems to be CS. Therefore it strikes me that the end user must benefit from Expansys with regard to either price, and/or product availability to their region. Or they wouldnt buy from them. And a lot of people must be buying/benefitting, or HP wouldn't have bothered

The gray market as a whole does not exist, in order to take advantage of earlier availability in some regions. It is all about price. It is about tax and exchange rates which allows people to sell at a price in one region cheaper than the traditional channel. Therefore for a product where there is constant support on warrenty etc, regardless of product origin, people definately do benefit from buying gray. Or you could look at it as, what is the disbenefit?

[Duncan]

Just for the record, clear communication in the text medium is the responsability of both the writer and the reader.

Couldn't agree more - in this case the reader, who appears to have been spoiling for an argument, read what he wanted to.

So to close, I am forced to comment again on my interpretation of what you have to say today. PIFFLE

And there - in a nutshell - is why your original response led to anything other than a shrug of the shoulders. You posted wanting a repsonse - you just didn't get the one you wanted.

[Duncan]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

"for as much money as they can get away with", you mean like EVERY other company out there?!?

All Companies work out a price at which they get maximum profit. Set the price too high, and not enough people buy, set the price too low, and you're selling yourself short.

I agree - and I NEVER said anything to contradict that. People were pointing out that grey imports give a price benefit. I pointed out that Expansys (the subject of this thread) get the grey goods to target the early adopters and get as much as they can for them. I didn't say that this was wrong - I said that the benefit which was being discussed in this thread - namely the price one - doesn't exist in this case.

Context is everything. My post needs to be read in the context of the discussion in this thread. If I thought grey goods or getting a good profit were bad full stop - I wouldn't have singled out Expansys and similar companies and I wouldn't have specified the circumstances.

[MatthewNCB]

Pulling this back a bit -
it's very clear HP is making a supernatural profit, as they have to 'artificially' keep the competition out.
Thomas.

I'm sorry but have you seen/heard Hp's numbers lately? They are losing share, profit and turnover. I think they are just trying to make money again.

[wshwe]

Too bad for people living in countries where HP sees fit not to sell particular products in. Smart companies realize they can sell in greater quantities by not restricting imports. Dumb companies like HP deserve to lose sales and market share.

[colinkhalid]

Its just another case of rip off Britian, we are supposed to be in the EEC, monetary union ......... what a crock of .......................

[MitchellO]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

And? Any early adopter knows that's part of the game. Once an item then becomes available locally then the old grey imports drop in price and you then have the choice of getting the local product or cheapter grey import. Still don't see the problem.

Because - and I can't believe I'm having to spell this out - people have been arguing, in this thread, that grey imports lead to lower prices. I pointed out that in the case of companies like Expansys this is not the case.

NOTE: That does not mean I think grey imports are bad. It also does not mean that I think offering goods to early adopters is a bad thing. It means (and I know this is a radical idea) that I am responding to the subject of this thread and the inerpretation that some have put on it. :roll:

If Expansys wants to sell imported stock, and people want to buy them, how its that hurting them?

[Rob Alexander]

That is exactly what a free market is - companies doing what they feel is in their best interest, with pressure from consumers and competitors. It ceases to be free when the government steps in and changes the rules. The only thing the government did here, as the judicial system, is evaluate the situation at the request of one company, evaluate the law and the reseller agreement, and determine that one company was violating the rules and told them to get back in line.

That's a completely spurious argument. A free market isn't just free for one set of actors in the market, it's free for all the actors in the market. A free market would allow parallel importing because that would recognize the rights of all entities to seek their best interests. If a manufacturer is charging such a premium in the market that someone can buy the same item at retail, ship it from overseas, add a reasonable profit and still sell it for less, then a genuinely free market would allow that. Only then would all players in the market be required to operate as efficiently as possible.

This, on the other hand, is nothing like a free market. This is the government stepping in through rule of law and favoring one segment of the market over the others, thereby distorting prices and reducing efficiency. HP gains at the cost of all other segments of the market. Of course, no one ever accused the EU of being genuinely pro-free-market, but the consumers who are affected by these policies certainly have a right to be upset about it.

You have only to look at other countries, like New Zealand, that have allowed parallel imports (against the objections of the manufacturers, of course) to see how well such a system can work. When they did this, enough consumers bought in the gray market to force official distributors to lower their usurious prices, resulting in lower overall consumer prices on imported goods and higher volumes of legitimate imports. Once the official channel prices move into line with those in other places in the world, there is no more profit to be made from parallel importing and it just dies out. It's nice how economics works if you'll just let it. Remove the legal barriers and the markets will sort it all out.

[Rob Alexander]

Pulling this back a bit -
it's very clear HP is making a supernatural profit, as they have to 'artificially' keep the competition out.
Thomas.

I'm sorry but have you seen/heard Hp's numbers lately? They are losing share, profit and turnover. I think they are just trying to make money again.

It's not the responsibility of the citizens of the EU to bail out HP for their (Carly's) poor decisions. If they want to make money again, they should look carefully at their markets, make quality products that meet their customer's needs, and provide competant technical support in the native language of the customer. If they continue on their present course, no such barriers to free trade will save them anyway.

[griph]

I'm sorry but your argument is full of holes. If they were to have the same prices all over the world, whose currency would they base t on?.
Oh rubbish! Banks sorted out currency rates centuries ago! The problem is differential &amp; profitering - why should UK users have to fork out the same in UKP as the americans shell out in Dollars e.g $300 - £300! Its HP and other global sellers who dont understand (on dont want to) this - its just profitering! B@st@rds! Ed (and you) are waayyyyyy off on this one!

[Yorker]

Pulling this back a bit -

Customers do not benefit from people like Expansys getting grey imports. There - I said it. What happens is - they get the grey imports so they can have the goods first. They then sell them to early adopters for as much money as they can get away with. This happens over and over.

And? Any early adopter knows that's part of the game. Once an item then becomes available locally then the old grey imports drop in price and you then have the choice of getting the local product or cheapter grey import. Still don't see the problem.

Because - and I can't believe I'm having to spell this out - people have been arguing, in this thread, that grey imports lead to lower prices. I pointed out that in the case of companies like Expansys this is not the case.

NOTE: That does not mean I think grey imports are bad. It also does not mean that I think offering goods to early adopters is a bad thing. It means (and I know this is a radical idea) that I am responding to the subject of this thread and the inerpretation that some have put on it. :roll:

Ok, I have an awful feeling we may be violently agreeing. I don't defend expansys's pricing policy, but I do defend their right to pass on grey imports to the customer who I believe in the vast majority of cases is fully aware they are paying more for an early release. HOWEVER, once an item is fully available to the consumer and they have a choice of a local product and a grey import then they do have a price choice. HP (and other companies e.g. sony with the PSP) are ripping people off, charging more with staggered releases. This is indefinsible.

[Fishie]

There are a lot of things people seem to be forgetting here.
In Europe more often then not we DO get superior products.
We have a mandatory 2 years of manufacturers warranty and in Belgium VAT is at 21%.

Now lets take the PSP as an example.
It will release here for 249€ tax included, thats 21% in taxes.
In the us it costs 249$ taxes NOT included.
So the price is more or less the same.
In addition to that we have the two years of manufacturers warrantee(something Sony tried to weasel away from with the PS2 in some countries over here)
So Sony will make sure that the best batches of parts(the batches with the lowest fault rates) get reserved for Europe since they know that a lot of people here will bring in their machines if they are not up to their liking.
Outside of that we also have a market that is staggered all over the place.
You cant just outsource your customer support all over the place here since there wont be too many people in Bangalore who speak Dutch, or Danish, or Swedish or whatever so that is another additional cost to consider together with localising manuals, packaging etcetera.

In HPs case we also have the Ipaq choice points that are included with every new PDA, a lot of other companies do similar things(Nintendo with its stars for instance).

The situation is not as black and white as people here try to make it out.

[Oleander]

It's not the responsibility of the citizens of the EU to bail out HP for their (Carly's) poor decisions. If they want to make money again, they should look carefully at their markets, make quality products that meet their customer's needs, and provide competant technical support in the native language of the customer. If they continue on their present course, no such barriers to free trade will save them anyway.

:werenotworthy:

I gotta hand it to mr. Hansberry, he sure knows how to make a good discussion! :lol:

Allthough I seldom agree with anything that Ed writes, I must admit that I do on this one - to some extent.

The EU have legislated on this issue and HP is just using their rights to slam a lawsuit on everybody they think is offending. And since they won against Expansys, that means they have the law on their side. And as mentioned over and over againg in this thread, this is a vicious circle where HP probably won't win customers on this account, they'll just buy their goods (not HP) somewhere cheaper.

So as consumers we have 2 options as I see it:

1) Tell you local MP (EU that is) that this is wrong!

I think that this battle is already lost! It's been going on for years - first the car industry got a law that forbid selling or manufacturing of unoriginal spare parts and now a more general law forbidding all kinds of parallel import. I will postulate that EU is soooo in the pocket of the industry with lightyears to the peon consumers, and that is also why I at every opportunity that I've been given, have voted no for membership of the EU.
It's simply not democratic! :(

I've seen for years danish legislation on consumer and worker issues being weakened to be "harmonized" with the rest of the EU. Things that 3 generations of workers have fought hard to make happen. It's horrific!
But I digress... :(
BTW, please take a moment to look at the homepage against software patents in EU if you havent already. ;)
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/

2) Vote with your feet!
I still havent decided whether to buy a HP x4700 or a Fujitsu Siemens PL 718. They cost roughly the same, but thats because the HP is parallel imported. If that is stopped the HP will cost about 300$ more and then I really have no doubt as to which one to buy!

There is the possibility of getting a remailer. Just like MV wrote about, it's possible to get companies in the US to forward items to you for a price. Right now I have the issue with Bose, who for some reason won't sell their QuietComfort 2 directly in denmark (apparently to the frustrations of their own company in denmark). So I have the option between buying them in Holland for 520$ or buying them for 299$ in the US and pay for shipping, customs and tax to a total cost of 430$ Geee, guess what I choose!
If they fail, it will cost me the same to ship them to US or Holland, soo.. :roll:

BTW, I see a lot of people in the US saying that they have the same problem getting stuff to the US, so how many of you have a remailer in another part of the world?

And what about the statement with support?
What a load of cr**!
I live in a country with approx 6 million inhabitants and here localization means Not!
All computer manuals are in english and only software the size of windows XP and MS Office are translated (and understandably therefore cost 3-4 times the english version).

In the last 5 years I can remember having had trouble with a SoundBlaster card - and was directed to a call-center in Ireland to a bloke who spoke english. Plextor - directed to Belgium to a guy who spoke english. Dell - directed to Ireland, to a guy who spoke english. HP - I think it was Ireland to a guy who spoke english. Anybody recognize a pattern here?
So why is it that an area the size of Europe (sometimes even EMEA) has to pay a substantial surplus compared with the US?

Heh, btw HP is big in denmark on handhelds. Actually I think i read somewhere that they have more than 2/3 of the market share. Why?
Because one of the 2 large supermarket chains have sold them cheap and bundled with GPS. They provide the support in danish and many people have bought the bundle, just to get the PPC, since it's much cheaper than what HP sells them for.

Support? Bleh! :roll:

[latinware]

In HP Colombia on the web (http://h20285.www2.hp.com/estore/config.asp?cModel=LACO-FA282A%23B16) the iPaq hx4715 cost US$830 including taxes. I bought an hx4700 from Expansys on November 2004 for US$ 829.95 (including shipping for USA, taxes and import duties) for two reasons, here -Colombia- they do not sell English versions and second at that moment here HP didn't have that model it was too new. So, at that moment was a good deal and at this day still a good deal since you can get that model for US$450 aprox in the states. Final: If you see HP Colombia it's making a good profit because there is no middleman! It selling directly to the final customer.