Mac vs. Linux?

[Typhoon]

Which is in higher use? The Mac OS or Linux OS? While I was downloading the JDK from Sun, I read some info on the same page. It said that Sun produces the JRE for Linux, Windows, and Solaris. Then it said that other companies produce the JRE for other platforms such as the Mac OS. I was kind of surprised and would assume that the Mac OS is used more as a desktop OS than Linux.

[Darius Wey]

I think from a server environment perspective, Linux is used more. From a desktop environment perspective, Mac OS is used more. Comparing the two is very much an apples/oranges concept. As for the whole Java topic, Apple has its own Java release: http://developer.apple.com/java/index.html

[Typhoon]

For some reason that seems to make sense. I know there are quite a few people out there who is Linux as their main OS, but they are in reality very few. It is pretty simple, really. If you ask most people (non-techies) which kind of choices between computers do they have, they would probably say IBM and Mac...mostly no one knows about Linux.

[Darius Wey]

That, and also the fact that despite how "user-friendly" and "simple" some Linux redists are, it's still built around a very advanced platform which requires a lot of fiddling around to make it work the way you want it to. For the majority of computer users, either Windows or Mac OS would be the most suitable platform for a home and SB environment.

[Janak Parekh]

I think from a server environment perspective, Linux is used more. From a desktop environment perspective, Mac OS is used more.
This is the key: Sun's real target market today is J2EE; that's where Java's big adoption is, and in that environment, Windows/Solaris/Linux are the popular platforms. Mac OS X is a latecomer to the scene, and as such Apple currently maintains the port.

I know there are quite a few people out there who is Linux as their main OS, but they are in reality very few.
Don't confuse desktop and server adoption. Linux is hugely successful in the server market. Combine that with MySQL/PostgreSQL, Apache/PHP, or Java/Tomcat/JSP, and you've got the combinations for many small-to-medium-sized websites.

--janak

[Typhoon]

That, and also the fact that despite how "user-friendly" and "simple" some Linux redists are, it's still built around a very advanced platform which requires a lot of fiddling around to make it work the way you want it to. For the majority of computer users, either Windows or Mac OS would be the most suitable platform for a home and SB environment.

So true. Has anyone tried Ubuntu?

[Darius Wey]

So true. Has anyone tried Ubuntu?

Nope, though I have heard some good words about that redist. A long time ago, I fiddled around with Mandrake. Then I gave Knoppix a spin. I'm now stuck on Fedora Core 4. While it still has room for improvement, it certainly is one of the nicer releases out there.

[applejosh]

If I had the money, I'd get a Mac. Since they moved to a UNIX backend, I've just become very interested in them. But since I'm in debt up to my ears (from all the gadgets in my life no doubt), I use Linux when I don't have to use Windows on my 4+ year old system. (I use Fedora a little at work, mainly because at one time we thought we might have a client who was interested in using a Linux server. At home I've got Debian (sarge - will probably move to etch sometime soon) loaded. You have to love a distribution that names its releases after a cartoon movie. (OK, well, maybe you don't, but I do.))

[Janak Parekh]

If I had the money, I'd get a Mac. Since they moved to a UNIX backend, I've just become very interested in them.
Exactly why I'm seriously considering one. ;)

(OK, well, maybe you don't, but I do.))
I'm still running Debian woody on my server. ;) Admittedly, FC4 is pretty darn nice.

--janak

[Typhoon]

So true. Has anyone tried Ubuntu?

Nope, though I have heard some good words about that redist. A long time ago, I fiddled around with Mandrake. Then I gave Knoppix a spin. I'm now stuck on Fedora Core 4. While it still has room for improvement, it certainly is one of the nicer releases out there.

Oh i see. Yea, the GUI of Ubuntu looks a lot like Fedora. But to me, it always stumps me...why hasn't Linux really become a useful desktop OS (for the average nontechie)? Or am I wrong here? Can I give Grandma a copy of Linux, and let her install and use it w/out my help?

[Darius Wey]

why hasn't Linux really become a useful desktop OS (for the average nontechie)? Or am I wrong here? Can I give Grandma a copy of Linux, and let her install and use it w/out my help?

Haha, I doubt it. The fact that a lot of Linux redists are free makes it an enticing option, but as I said earlier, you need to do a lot of fiddling before you can get things to work the way you want it to. That, coupled with the fact that not all vendors release drivers for the Linux platform, means that Windows and Mac OS will always be in front in the desktop OS market.

[Typhoon]

why hasn't Linux really become a useful desktop OS (for the average nontechie)? Or am I wrong here? Can I give Grandma a copy of Linux, and let her install and use it w/out my help?

Haha, I doubt it. The fact that a lot of Linux redists are free makes it an enticing option, but as I said earlier, you need to do a lot of fiddling before you can get things to work the way you want it to. That, coupled with the fact that not all vendors release drivers for the Linux platform, means that Windows and Mac OS will always be in front in the desktop OS market.

lol Yea I see. Oh well...

[Phillip Dyson]

I think its more than just the drivers.
IMO the effort to improve the user experience on linux is seriously lacking. Probably because there is no real focus in that area. Anyone putting real money into linux is targetting back services for businesses.

[Janak Parekh]

IMO the effort to improve the user experience on linux is seriously lacking. Probably because there is no real focus in that area.
That's not completely true. The KDE group, in particular, deserve commendation for their efforts in improving the user interface -- KDE 3.4 is quite impressive in its polish.

However, the "problem" with Linux is that, having a decentralized development model, there's no real incentive or requirement to standardize on one API. As a result, you have different graphical toolkits, each with their own idiosyncrasies, and this leads to a less consistent interface for the end-user. Couple this with the fact that traditional UNIX believes in command-line operation, and you have a solution that's not immediately intuitive.

Compare this to Apple or MS -- their APIs are tightly controlled, and while this means you're stuck with vendor lock-in, at least the experience is consistent across the board.

Anyone putting real money into linux is targetting back services for businesses.
Right, because there you have the sysadmins who are comfortable with the command-line. ;) The Linux kernel itself is solid, too, which helps with services that have to run for long periods of time.

--janak

[Typhoon]

Has anyone tried Lindows? What do you guys think of it? You guys think it is a major improvement vs. other distros to be a desktop OS?

[Darius Wey]

Has anyone tried Lindows? What do you guys think of it? You guys think it is a major improvement vs. other distros to be a desktop OS?

I've not tried it, but I heard it's a great step for newbies making the move from Windows to Linux. The cruncher is that it's not free, but you get what you pay for.

[Typhoon]

Hmmm... so w/out the driver support, Linux will almost never become a great desktop OS like Windows, huh? I mean great in that it's the most reliable for any newbie off the street. Because any nontechie who needs to use their computer for their brand new hardware like printer, camera, etc. doesn't want to have to fiddle w/hardware drivers. This fact alone seems to clash w/those linux distros who try to compete w/Windows for the normal nontechie....

[Janak Parekh]

Hmmm... so w/out the driver support, Linux will almost never become a great desktop OS like Windows, huh?
More than just driver support -- application availability is also important. In fact, I think FC4's driver support is surprisingly good.

--janak

[Typhoon]

And I guess games poses a problem as well. If you want to run games, better get a windowsbox.

[Darius Wey]

And I guess games poses a problem as well. If you want to run games, better get a windowsbox.

There are plenty of games available for the Linux platform, but yes, for the main titles you see in stores, you'd be better off running Windows.

[Hyperluminal]

For myself, I had been interested in trying out Linux for quite a while, but until recently I only had 1 partition on my hard drive, and I didn't want to buy a nondestructive repartitioning program to try out Linux. Anyway, my laptop's hard drive died a few months ago, so when I bought a new one, I made myself a 20-ish GB partition for Linux and installed FC3 (the latest release at the time) there.
It seemed to work pretty well, and it even recognized most of my hardware automatically. Unfortunately, it didn't recognize my WiFi PC Card out of the box, so I had to look for drivers. I did find them, but then I found out that I had to compile them; it never worked right, even though I eventually found directions on exactly what steps are necessary to compile and install them. Anyway, after starting at command lines for several hours, I eventually lost interest, and have generally stopped using FC since then. :oops: (I still do have it installed though...)

The moral of the story? I consider myself to be a very knowledgeable computer user, but this was the first time I had seriously used Linux. If it was this difficult for me, then in my opinion the Linux community has a pretty long way to go before they can convert average Windows users en masse...

One thing that did happen when I was using Linux was that I got interested in switching to a non-Microsoft operating system. Linux seemed more fresh and interesting than Windows, where I deal with all the same annoyances that I've dealt with for years. This is why I'm now considering getting a Mac... :)

[Typhoon]

For myself, I had been interested in trying out Linux for quite a while, but until recently I only had 1 partition on my hard drive, and I didn't want to buy a nondestructive repartitioning program to try out Linux. Anyway, my laptop's hard drive died a few months ago, so when I bought a new one, I made myself a 20-ish GB partition for Linux and installed FC3 (the latest release at the time) there.
It seemed to work pretty well, and it even recognized most of my hardware automatically. Unfortunately, it didn't recognize my WiFi PC Card out of the box, so I had to look for drivers. I did find them, but then I found out that I had to compile them; it never worked right, even though I eventually found directions on exactly what steps are necessary to compile and install them. Anyway, after starting at command lines for several hours, I eventually lost interest, and have generally stopped using FC since then. :oops: (I still do have it installed though...)

The moral of the story? I consider myself to be a very knowledgeable computer user, but this was the first time I had seriously used Linux. If it was this difficult for me, then in my opinion the Linux community has a pretty long way to go before they can convert average Windows users en masse...

One thing that did happen when I was using Linux was that I got interested in switching to a non-Microsoft operating system. Linux seemed more fresh and interesting than Windows, where I deal with all the same annoyances that I've dealt with for years. This is why I'm now considering getting a Mac... :)

I never knew about Linux until a few years ago. It definitely is eye candy though. There is some cool in Linux that would be cool to see in Windows...but there are already apps out there that give the same effect.

[Hyperluminal]

Wait, eye candy in Linux? Which distro?

[Darius Wey]

Typhoon, here's a nice, short article about Linux (sourced from /.):

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html

[Typhoon]

Wait, eye candy in Linux? Which distro?

Well so far, to me Ubuntu looks cooler than Windows...but I remember a few years ago, there was JAMD Linux, which I thought looked real cool. Or am I missing something?

[Typhoon]

Typhoon, here's a nice, short article about Linux (sourced from /.):

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html

This is such an informative article. It is the kind of perspective that those disto developers should look into: through the eyes of "Regular People".

[mc_03]

Wait, eye candy in Linux? Which distro?

Most of the exciting stuff going on in the linux eye candy department hasn't made its way into the mainstream distros yet, but it exists and can be used with some tweaking.

One example is Luminocity, a project which will eventually be integrated into GNOME and aims to have a completely OpenGL rendered desktop. The end result is being able to have video game style special effects with very little performance hit, since most of the work is done with the GPU.

Example videos: http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/xshots

Other great stuff that can be expected in newer releases of KDE/GNOME are vector graphics support systemwide, so buttons, icons, etc... will be completely scalable and do not have to be confined to specific shapes. Combined with OpenGL rendering, you can get graphical effects equal to those in Mac OS X or Vista.

Linux on the desktop is always changing... try it 6 months ago and chances are you'll already see improvements in today's distributions. Try it 6 months from now, and you'll see the same amount of improvement. That's the main advantage of open source!

I'd agree with everyone that hardware support is the biggest obstacle at this point; if your distribution of choice happens to work with all your hardware, the desktop experience is usually as easy and productive as Windows. So Granny might not be able to install and configure a Linux distribution, but she would probably have no problems navigating a Linux desktop that has already been set up. This situation will improve as vendors release drivers or bundle Linux distributions with their own fully supported hardware.

[Typhoon]

Wow. I had no idea this was coming to the Linux scene. That is impressive. So you are saying that Windows Vista is supposed to have the same thing plus much more?

[mc_03]

Vista is supposed to have effects like transparency, window shadows, and 'glass panes' covering windows that can have graphics embedded in them. The specifics aren't that important, though, since virtually any special effect can be created through the MS APIs or OpenGL in Linux.

The race is on to see whether any Linux distributors will include these features in usable form before Vista ships in late 2006. The Linux community is relatively optimistic about this. (KDE 3.4 already has built in support for window drop shadows a la Mac OS X, with more goodness to come.)

[Darius Wey]

Project Looking Glass (http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/) is also something worth looking at if you're into eye-candy. :)

[Typhoon]

Project Looking Glass (http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/) is also something worth looking at if you're into eye-candy. :)

Hey that is really cool. You know, several years ago, I saw on the web about some company (called Frog Entertainment?) who was making a 3D web browser. Does anyone know if this software actually finished? It seemed like a cool idea. lol but I guess "what is the use?" if you got tabbed browsers like FireFox?