A Look at the HTC Universal

[Darius Wey]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.eprice.com.tw/news/?news_id=2913' target='_blank'>http://www.eprice.com.tw/news/?news_id=2913</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/wey-20050528-Universal.jpg" /><br /><br />I sort of have a thing for 'black', and this black HTC Universal tickles my taste buds in more ways than one. Equipped with an Intel XScale 520MHz processor, 128MB RAM, 96MB ROM, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, IR, an SD/MMC slot, WCDMA/GPRS/GSM - Tri-Band 900MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz, and a 65K VGA screen, the HTC Universal was the first official Windows Mobile 5.0 device to be announced in the market. ePrice Taiwan takes a look at it, so if you're interested, head over there to get the full lowdown. Also, here's a <a href="http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eprice.com.tw%2Fnews%2F%3Fnews_id%3D2913&lp=zt_en">Babel Fish translation</a> if you can't read Chinese.

[jeasher]

There you have it: 96MB ROM, 128MB RAM. Plenty. That thing looks pretty sick to me. I even like it in black.

[ctmagnus]

Very nice. Me likee!

A few "interesting" quotes from the article:

Black, is white

and

WiFi, blue bud, infrared

:lol:

[Darius Wey]

A few "interesting" quotes from the article

That's the problem with Chinese to English online translation services. I assure you it all makes perfect sense when read in the native tongue. ;)

[saru83]

THIS is an AWESOME device, i cant wait untill i get my hands on it... its freaking powerfull, awesome look and WM 5.. what else do we need. Hopefully i will be one of the first to get it from expansys. :D

Thx for this awesome article

Sarwat

[surur]

Do you realize this thing has 5 kinds of wireless?

IR, Bluetooth, GSM, GPRS, 3G and WIFI!

Wow is all i can say!

Surur

Edit: Said WIFI twice, skipped IR :oops:

[Darius Wey]

Do you realize this thing has 5 kinds of wireless?

Well there's IR too. ;)

Wow is all i can say!

Agreed. It really is quite impressive. It seems like the perfect device for all those who wanted VGA on their PPCPE. :D

[petvas]

When will it be available?

I want it now!!!

[Muntasser]

"I have a thing for black"

Like they say, Once you go Black you never go back :P

[Darius Wey]

When will it be available? I want it now!!!

HTC expects global distribution in the second half of this year with European, Asian and North American mobile operators. Off the top of my head, I can't place an exact date or price tag to it, but when more information pours in, we'll let you know.

Edit: I forgot to mention that T-Mobile Germany expect it to be available in Summer 2005, but I'm not sure what other mobile operators have planned at this stage.

[zetsurin]

Hmmm, it kinda looks like a brick to me. I thought I recalled a certain nokia unit being criticised in these forums for being too big, but I guess a PocketPC can get away with it :wink: On paper it does read well but the form factor kills it for me. I might be on my own, but I think keyboards belong on laptops because after adding one and a folding screen you just end up with a watered down laptop that makes it look like there is more than a gun in your pocket if you try to carry it with you everywhere you go.

[surur]

Hmmm, it kinda looks like a brick to me. I thought I recalled a certain nokia unit being criticized in these forums for being too big, but I guess a PocketPC can get away with it :wink: On paper it does read well but the form factor kills it for me. I might be on my own, but I think keyboards belong on laptops because after adding one and a folding screen you just end up with a watered down laptop that makes it look like there is more than a gun in your pocket if you try to carry it with you everywhere you go.

The nice thing is the variety of devices available. If you want small there's the Jam, bigger there is the XDA 2i, even bigger with keyboard is the XDA 2s, slightly bigger with VGA screen and keyboard = XDA 3/MDA 4.

Regarding the Nokia unit, I think it received a very good reception here. I certainly think at that price point, with an open OS and such good hardware I would think of getting one. The critical people are the ones who think its PDA (and therefore too big) when its really intended as a web pad.

Surur

[rhelwig]

How can you beat this:

"Underneath the camera engraves Microsoft the advertisement to symbolize that, to the numerous people declared it is in every sense of the term Pocket the PC handset."

:D

This does seem like what I'm looking for in my next PPC.

Also, I like the 'brick' size. Before I got my Samsung i700, my cell phones would pop out of my pockets too easily since they didn't fit snugly enough.

[Paragon]

128MB RAM - 96MB ROM?

I'm still not convinced we are on the right path here, now with persistent storage? Till now the average device runs 64MB of RAM and some with 128MB, and that is with program, and storage shared out of that. I don't think I have yet see my device go over 30MB of program memory being used. I'm not saying that some folks don't use more, but to jump from the present amount of RAM that is available for running programs to 128MB totally for running programs, yet the ROM is still hovering under 100MB to be shared with the OS, carrier optimizations, AND storage, just does seem to be the best optimization of memory. It doesn't make sense to me. It seems that at the least the opposite would work better in WM 5.0...128MB or more of ROM and 64-96MB of RAM. The only way this makes sense is if the ROM quoted does not include the OS, which is maybe on another chip, or at least doesn't use a portion of the quoted ROM. Am I wrong in this in any way?

Dave

[surur]

128 RAM 96 ROM is fine because...

There's no substitute for RAM!!

To expand ROM you only need a SD card. To upgrade RAM (if its even possible) you have to send your device away and pay $200 more.

More RAM=Better

Surur

[BHT]

Really excellent device.

I hope in the future they put a little integrated GPS antenna...

[Paragon]

128 RAM 96 ROM is fine because...

There's no substitute for RAM!!

To expand ROM you only need a SD card. To upgrade RAM (if its even possible) you have to send your device away and pay $200 more.

More RAM=Better

Surur

Till now 30 or 40MB of RAM has been more than enough to run apps, but 96MB of storage has not been enough as many people here have stated numerous times. I'm not one of them by the way. ;) The point I'm trying to make, Surur, is that isn't it better served in the opposite? More ROM, than RAM? I can't believe that anyone is realistically going to use 128mb of RAM on running applications only. I'll bet that if you checked with the non teckie masses that millions of them don't have 128MB of RAM on their desktop.....My hardrive is MUCH bigger than my RAM!



Dave

[DaleReeck]

128 RAM 96 ROM is fine because...

There's no substitute for RAM!!

To expand ROM you only need a SD card. To upgrade RAM (if its even possible) you have to send your device away and pay $200 more.

More RAM=Better

Surur

I can't believe that anyone is realistically going to use 128mb of RAM on running applications only.


Sort of like Bill Gates saying that no one will ever need more than 640K of memory on their desktop? :D Never say never.

[Paragon]

Never say never.

I didn't, Dale. :)

[igreen]

Paragon is right. 128MB SDRAM with WM 5.0 is like having a Ferrari in Manhatten. Looks good on the spec sheet, but if you can't use it to its full potential what good is it really. And in this case the OS won't take full advantage of it. More ROM will be better. Keep in mind...you can't store data in SDRAM anymore with WM 5.0. Why do you think most of the other guys...Dell, HP released units heavy on ROM, holding to 64MB on the SDRAM. In previous OS revisions where the OS store applications in SDRAM, 128MB SDRAM made sense. Now the OS will store apps in the user accessable space in ROM.

[Menneisyys]

128 RAM 96 ROM is fine because...

There's no substitute for RAM!!

To expand ROM you only need a SD card. To upgrade RAM (if its even possible) you have to send your device away and pay $200 more.

More RAM=Better

Surur

I can't believe that anyone is realistically going to use 128mb of RAM on running applications only.


Sort of like Bill Gates saying that no one will ever need more than 640K of memory on their desktop? :D Never say never.

There're some stuff that do require 128M RAM; for example, the strategy game BugLord ( http://www.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=9064 ). See http://www.firstloox.org//forums/showthread.php?t=3959 on the problem running it on non-128M devices.

Also, if you would like to edit 14-16+ Mpixel images (say, you're on-the-field professional photographer that would like to apply some changes to his/her images before uploading them on/from his PDA), then, you'll also need 64M+ RAM.

Furthermore, with current PIE versions and current (meaning dog-slow to write to) File Stores, the PIE cache just can't be located at any File Store - it must be located in the main RAM. (reasons for this and real-life benchmarks: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36376 ). I don't think the situation will be radically different with the WM5 PIE. This problem is the same with some other programs, but to a lesser extent: NetFront, SimpleSMS etc.

[LPC]

I don't get it ... if I want a keyboard I'll use my PC or laptop. The whole point of a PDA is to be compact, that things massive !

Deffo not one for me, imagine holding that beast up to your head, just like those massive PDA phones, a step back 8 years !

[Paragon]

There're some stuff that do require 128M RAM; .

Ok, in the real world...here is a little test I just ran to see how much RAM would be used in a senario I can't see happening in reality, but I thought I would give it a go anyway.

I opened all these at the same time

Audible, and listened to a book

Windows Media Play, and listen to music

Pocket TV and watched a movie

Had wifi on and used Resco File Explorer to search on my network

Used Pocket Internet Explorer to surf the internet

Opened Pocket Artist...picture editing

As well I had my calendar open as well as my contacts.

Total RAM in use for programs......28.6MB

What am I going to use the other 100MB for? On a WM5.0 device with persistent storage wouldn't it be put to better use in ROM where I can actually use it to store data?

Dave

[Menneisyys]

There're some stuff that do require 128M RAM; .

Ok, in the real world...here is a little test I just ran to see how much RAM would be used in a senario I can't see happening in reality, but I thought I would give it a go anyway.

I opened all these at the same time

Audible, and listened to a book

Windows Media Play, and listen to music

Pocket TV and watched a movie

Had wifi on and used Resco File Explorer to search on my network

Used Pocket Internet Explorer to surf the internet

Opened Pocket Artist...picture editing

As well I had my calendar open as well as my contacts.

Total RAM in use for rpograms......28.6MB

What am I going to use the other 100MB for? Wouldn't it be put to better use in ROM where I can actually use it to store data?

Dave

Pocket Artist (as any image editor capable of loading huge, 8+ Mpixel images) will need tons of RAM for image editing. That is, if you are a pro photographer and don't want to lug around a full-ledged notebook just to upload your stuff to the Web via Wi-Fi ASAP, you'll need RAM if you want to edit the images before uploading.

Also, as I've pointed out in the above-linked benchmarking thread, some current programs will work much slower when run in the File Store and/or when their cache or work directory (which should be preserved between power downs) is moved to any kind of flash memory. And, as Surur has pointed out, you can always use flash memory cards instead of the built-in File Store for static storage. (Actually, current memory cards are much faster at writing than current File Stores, even in high-end devices like the iPAQ hx4700 or the Pocket Loox 720.)

[Paragon]

Pocket Artist (as any image editor capable of loading huge, 8+ Mpixel images) will need tons of RAM for image editing. That is, if you are a pro photographer and don't want to lug around a full-ledged notebook just to upload your stuff to the Web via Wi-Fi ASAP, you'll need RAM if you want to edit the images before uploading.


If so what have they been doing up till now, since most devices are running with less RAM for program use. ;) Sorry Menneisyys, I think this is a weak, and unrealistic response, that does not answer my question. Sorry Dude! :)

[ricksfiona]

There're some stuff that do require 128M RAM; .

Ok, in the real world...here is a little test I just ran to see how much RAM would be used in a senario I can't see happening in reality, but I thought I would give it a go anyway.

I opened all these at the same time

Audible, and listened to a book

Windows Media Play, and listen to music

Pocket TV and watched a movie

Had wifi on and used Resco File Explorer to search on my network

Used Pocket Internet Explorer to surf the internet

Opened Pocket Artist...picture editing

As well I had my calendar open as well as my contacts.

Total RAM in use for programs......28.6MB

What am I going to use the other 100MB for? On a WM5.0 device with persistent storage wouldn't it be put to better use in ROM where I can actually use it to store data?

Dave

Perfect!

Except for editing pictures, which I believe most users here do not do on the PPC, with WM5, there's more reason to have greater ROM than RAM. Regardless, I would've preferred 128MB of both RAM and ROM.

I'm not too happy about processor speed, but what is even more disturbing is the attached keyboard. You know, I never wanted a Blackberry... So stop trying to force it on me! I touch-type which makes this keyboard completely useless. The space used with the extra keyboard could've been used with a bigger battery and thus afford a faster processor. And you'd still have a smaller device.

It's a cool device regardless. I keep on waiting...

[surur]

Its a simple point though. 128Mb is definitely ample for ram, maybe more than ample.

128Mb ROM is too small for anything useful. Are you really going to load 128Mb of programs? 30 Mp3's? 1/2 a TV program? About the only thing that would fit in would be GPS maps, but only for a medium size area.

For data storage 128Mb is passé these days. I would rather the OEM's future proof me with a lot of RAM than increase the ROM in a way that would be of negligible benefit.

Surur

[Menneisyys]

Pocket Artist (as any image editor capable of loading huge, 8+ Mpixel images) will need tons of RAM for image editing. That is, if you are a pro photographer and don't want to lug around a full-ledged notebook just to upload your stuff to the Web via Wi-Fi ASAP, you'll need RAM if you want to edit the images before uploading.


If so what have they been doing up till now, since most devices are running with less RAM for program use. ;) Sorry Menneisyys, I think this is a weak, and unrealistic response, that does not answer my question. Sorry Dude! :)

I do know it's unrealistic, even if there may be some dozens of PPC users that have already faced this problem (editing huge images on a PPC).

However, the other problems I've mentioned (dog-slow PIE if its cache isn't in RAM etc) are still valid (unless the PIE in WM5 has a much better caching algorithm and other apps like Netfront are also made flash-aware).

[Paragon]

However, the other problems I've mentioned (dog-slow PIE if its cache isn't in RAM etc) are still valid (unless the PIE in WM5 has a much better caching algorithm and other apps like Netfront are also made flash-aware).


Yeah, I think for those of us without a preproduction Universal in our hands there are a lot of unanswered questions. Keep in mind we are judging performance based on today's hardware. We've all been told that ROM in the new devices coming to market is apparently much faster, and we have no idea what improvements have been made to the OS, or PIE that may address some of your concerns. I have a gut feeling it's going to work out ok. :)

Dave

[DaleReeck]

I can't believe there are people arguing that this device has too much RAM. Usually, we b*tch about new devices not having enough memory. Now, there's too much. No wonders companies go crazy trying to figure out what consumers want. And yes, I know about the new memory structure on WM2005. And yes, this device can use more ROM because of it. But too much RAM? No such thing IMO. There are never too many features, too much RAM in a PDA or computer. You never know what six months or a year from now are going to bring, especially when software is involved.

[surur]

I can't believe there are people arguing that this device has too much RAM. Usually, we b*tch about new devices not having enough memory. Now, there's too much. No wonders companies go crazy trying to figure out what consumers want. And yes, I know about the new memory structure on WM2005. And yes, this device can use more ROM because of it. But too much RAM? No such thing IMO. There are never too many features, too much RAM in a PDA or computer. You never know what six months or a year from now are going to bring, especially when software is involved.

Hear Hear !!

For a high end device I want 128Mb ram. Any less and I would feel I'm compromising. I can always expand "persistent storage" myself.

Surur

[Kevin Daly]

It has finally achieved true poetry :-)
I don't know what a "firefly curtain" is, but I'm sure I want one.


Sort of like Kate Bush really.

0X

[Paragon]

I can't believe there are people arguing that this device has too much RAM. Usually, we b*tch about new devices not having enough memory. Now, there's too much. No wonders companies go crazy trying to figure out what consumers want. And yes, I know about the new memory structure on WM2005. And yes, this device can use more ROM because of it. But too much RAM? No such thing IMO. There are never too many features, too much RAM in a PDA or computer. You never know what six months or a year from now are going to bring, especially when software is involved.

Dale, you totally missed the point of the whole debate. Point being...it needs MORE ROM. This device has two flavors for memory, ROM and RAM. Which do you thing needs more? I think it is obvous that you need more storage than you do RAM...given my above senerio. Given the choice of 128 of one and 96 of the other...on WM5.0 devices I will take more ROM, and have a better functioning device because of it. If it only had 64MB of RAM, and I'm NOT saying that's all it should have, but if it did, it would be doubling the amount of program ram availale now on a 64MB device, because it does not have to share it.

Dave

[Kevin Daly]

I don't know what a "firefly curtain" is, but I'm sure I want one.



Reading on, it looks like I do know what it is.
The screen :)

[saru83]

I can't believe there are people arguing that this device has too much RAM. Usually, we b*tch about new devices not having enough memory. Now, there's too much. No wonders companies go crazy trying to figure out what consumers want. And yes, I know about the new memory structure on WM2005. And yes, this device can use more ROM because of it. But too much RAM? No such thing IMO. There are never too many features, too much RAM in a PDA or computer. You never know what six months or a year from now are going to bring, especially when software is involved.

Awesome, i have been all the post on this topic, and i totally agree with u!!! What do u think "paragon"???

[surur]

You don't need to photoshop to need 128Mb ram, just admire photoshoppers.

Heres 2 screen shots of pocket IE using 50-60Mb ram loading a photoshop thread on Fark, one with 45 replies, one with 80.

http://surur.sytes.net/screen1.gif
http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1500445

http://surur.sytes.net/screen2.gif
The above plus http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1500376 loaded at the same time using pocketplus. Pocketinformant screenshot feature used to take the screenshot.

Besides the task manager nothing else much is running.

Try loading these pages on a 64Mb device. I doubt you will get very far.

Surur

[Paragon]

I can't believe there are people arguing that this device has too much RAM. Usually, we b*tch about new devices not having enough memory. Now, there's too much. No wonders companies go crazy trying to figure out what consumers want. And yes, I know about the new memory structure on WM2005. And yes, this device can use more ROM because of it. But too much RAM? No such thing IMO. There are never too many features, too much RAM in a PDA or computer. You never know what six months or a year from now are going to bring, especially when software is involved.

Awesome, i have been all the post on this topic, and i totally agree with u!!! What do u think "paragon"???

Look it, I agree, there is never enough...but we are always faced with choices. I try to make mine wisely based on realism, not on MINE IS BIGGER! ;)

[EDIT] I have mixed up the nombers for ROM and RAM in this post, so I corrected them in my post a couple down from this one.
I'll try to explain myself one last time. Take the 128MB of ROM and 96 of RAM on this WM5.0 device The RAM is gone, it's used entirely for programs, so you are left with 128MB of ROM which is shared with the OS, and so on which takes it to for the sake of arguement down to 100MB. Now take the same configuration on a WM2003SE device...128MB again shared, taking down to about 100MB. It also has 96MB of RAM shared equally for the sake of arguement between storage and running programs. So there is about 48MB of storage RAM for a total of 148MB of storage on the WM2003SE device ,and only 100MB on the WM5.0 device, for a net LOSS. Wouldn't a better balance between the two memories, ROM, and RAM result in a better performing device?.....I don't care if mine is bigger, or has more. I want mine to perform the best it can with what it has available. If it only has 96 of one and 128 of another I will gladly take my 128MB in ROM, on a WM5.0 device.

Even with Surur's graphic above it's still only using 40MB or about 1/3 of that 128MB. ;)

[surur]

Sorry, the second shot did not come out well.

Try this:

http://surur.sytes.net/screen3.gif


The main point you seem to be missing is that its easy to add persistent storage, but very difficult to add ram. I'd rather have to OEM do the difficult stuff.

Surur

[Paragon]

No Surur, I haven't missed that at all. I have lived by that. I think it is a very valid point.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the rest....tilll Loox, and Dell ship their WM5.0 upgrade....then...... :takethat: :)

Dave

[Paragon]

Woooo, I just realized I messed up with my numbers above...it's even worse.

Compare the 128MB RAM and 96 ROM on the WM5.0 device. The RAM is totally gone, so we are left with 96MB of ROM which is shared with the OS, bringing it down to about 75MB.

Now the same configuration on a WM2003SE device. 128mb of RAM, using say 50MB of it for programs, that is much more than is used now. This is equal to the ROM used on the WM5.0 device, but there is also about 75MB user accesible ROM out of the 96, for a net loss of 75MB of storage on the WM5.0 device. RAM has jumped from about 30MB in WM2003 to 128MB in WM5.0. We loose 75MB of storage, but gain 100MB of RAM use. I think there is a much better split than this. If the two were flipped I think we would have better functioning devices overall....Geez, you would still have 96MB of RAM...three times what we have now on most devices.

Dave

[surur]

Ive heard, (but not confirmed) that WM 5 devices will be able to sync their storage cards also, removing the distinction between built-in storage and added storage.

Surur

[Paragon]

Ive heard, (but not confirmed) that WM 5 devices will be able to sync their storage cards also, removing the distinction between built-in storage and added storage.

Surur

Yeah, just not over WiFi. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jonathan1]

There you have it: 96MB ROM, 128MB RAM. Plenty. That thing looks pretty sick to me. I even like it in black.

Not really. Remember that with PPC2005 programs are stored in ROM and run in RAM. So this feels like a neutered system. From here on out any device without 128MB of ROM is going to start to feel a little tight.

[Patrick Y.]

I think that it is a REALLY wise idea to have more RAM. I mean, more RAM is needed as programs became more complicated. For example, you need VERY LITTLE RAM and processing power for computers several years ago because the only thing they can do is word processing and some other small things. However, look how much RAM and processing power you need nowadays to run programs. I won't be surprised at all if Pocket PC requires more than 128MB RAM in the future.

[Jonathan1]

I can't believe that anyone is realistically going to use 128mb of RAM on running applications only.


Sort of like Bill Gates saying that no one will ever need more than 640K of memory on their desktop? :D Never say never.[/quote]

That is a urban legend. Gates never said such a thing.

[Darius Wey]

Cutting in late here, but I'm going to side with Dave. Looking at the current memory configuration, I think it would have benefited from 96MB RAM and 128MB ROM. Now I also think discussing whether the RAM or ROM is enough is largely a moot point. Once Windows Mobile 5.0 starts shipping, we'll get a clearer picture.

[Jonathan1]

I think that it is a REALLY wise idea to have more RAM. I mean, more RAM is needed as programs became more complicated. For example, you need VERY LITTLE RAM and processing power for computers several years ago because the only thing they can do is word processing and some other small things. However, look how much RAM and processing power you need nowadays to run programs. I won't be surprised at all if Pocket PC requires more than 128MB RAM in the future.


And do you think this current Pocket PC's aren't going to be scrap in 2 years?
Guys. You need to keep in mind we are talking about a PDA here. This isn't a desktop or a laptop where you can upgrade the RAM, hard drive, CPU, GPU at will. In all likelihood you aren't going to see more then one OS upgrade per device IF you are lucky and frankly if something uses 128MB of RAM to run on the system I'm going to call bloatware on it. Will you need 128MB? Someday? But not today. Certainly not this fall and I HIGHLY doubt next summer either. Before Pocket PC 2005 (I won’t use the WM name.) I would have agreed with more RAM. I would be leading the charge to 256MB of RAM, but with 2005 there is now a shift to a system that emulates the desktop then in any previous version of the Pocket PC. To put it a simpler way a pocket PC 2005 device with 128 MB of RAM is like a system with 1GB of RAM. More then overkill. By the time you actually need a base install of 1GB of RAM for most apps your system is going to be pathetically out of date. Better to upgrade your ROM, hard drive in the desktop sense, so you can install more apps. And the external storage idea being as good as ROM doesn’t fly. When you turn on a Pocket PC it takes a few seconds to initialize the CF/SD slots and cards. Some programs DO NOT like this. Try installing a keyboard app or a Today screen plugin on a CF/SD card and see what happens.
Also there is the fact that the more RAM you have installed on a system the more juice it requires to keep its contents intact. Adding 256 or 512MB would net you more space to run apps but less battery life. So you guys are asking to try and future proof a system at the expense of battery life. Doesn’t make a whole heck of a lot of sense to me but then again its late. So who knows. :morning:

[galt]

I can't tell if the externals of the device have undergone some tweaks or not, but seeing it in black just makes me pant like a dog... I just can't stop looking at this thing.

[Menneisyys]

Yeah, I think for those of us without a preproduction Universal in our hands there are a lot of unanswered questions. Keep in mind we are judging performance based on today's hardware. We've all been told that ROM in the new devices coming to market is apparently much faster, and we have no idea what improvements have been made to the OS, or PIE that may address some of your concerns. I have a gut feeling it's going to work out ok. :)


I hope too that MS is aware of the problem and greatly optimizes the PIE caching model and/or enhances the file creation speed of current File Stores (if it's possible at all via an operating system optimization) so that current (File Store-writing speed-wise, dog-slow) devices that will receive the WM5 upgrade (hx2xxx/4700, x50(v), PL7xx) will also be able to run everything (even "legacy" apps like SimpleSMS or NetFront) installed into the File Store without major speed problems.

EDIT: I've just read at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=346872 that a current WM5 user has said that the WM5 version of PIE indeed has been given a much more File Store-friendlier cache algorithm and it works flawlessly on WM5 devices, using the (slow to create files in) File Store as the cache drive.

[Menneisyys]

Sort of like Bill Gates saying that no one will ever need more than 640K of memory on their desktop? :D Never say never.

That is a urban legend. Gates never said such a thing.

Yeah, you're right. See for example http://forums.overclockersclub.com/_640k_Ought_To_Be_Enough_For_Anybody_-t50756.html

[surur]

I thought I demonstrated very convincingly that its very easy to run out of 64MB ram. When the OS booths up you are not going to have 64MB ram free in any case. I would be about 40-50MB. If you use a multi-tabbed web browser and you surf with pictures on you are soon going to be pushing your memory limits.

Remember that as web browsers get more sophisticated they use more RAM. When Minimo comes along, do you think it will use less ram or more ram that PIE? And there is no virtual memory on WM currently. Either you can load a page, or you get out of memory problems.

Regarding the issue of not being able to upgrade the device, thats the very point! If you are not going to be able to increase your ram as your needs increase, you better get it right to start with!

Also, I find the suggestion that today plug-ins will take up 10's of megabytes spurious. I would not want such a plug-in to startup in any case after a soft-reset, as it would almost certainly slow it down.

Lastly, for other program storage, read speeds from a fast SD card can be even faster than from ROM, removing that argument.

High-end should always have 128Mb ram, because you can do more with it.

Surur

[Menneisyys]

I thought I demonstrated very convincingly that its very easy to run out of 64MB ram. When the OS booths up you are not going to have 64MB ram free in any case. I would be about 40-50MB. If you use a multi-tabbed web browser and you surf with pictures on you are soon going to be pushing your memory limits.

That's, unfortunately, right. See my comments and PIE benchmarks at http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39977&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=80 . It can safely be said that PIE will consume at least an order of magnitude more memory for storing the internal representation (HTML in a DOM tree; images as decompressed bitmaps) of a Web page than the cumulative size of the original resource files.


Lastly, for other program storage, read speeds from a fast SD card can be even faster than from ROM, removing that argument.


Yes, that's true, according to my benchmarks too.

[Dermot81]

Apps today aren't made for 128mb of RAM.

If you guys want better apps in the future, then the hardware has to get better first, so the developers have better tools to work with.

However, if you want to be stuck with useless apps like PIE forever, then by all means insist on less RAM :)

[Muntasser]

i refuse to believe that any of todays PPC's have too much RAM.

We should be looking ahead; anticipating that the introduction of WM5 will bring with it a new host of applications and demands on the user.

These days even notebooks are shipping with 1GB or more of RAM... and why not?! I have 512 mb ram and currently only 120 megs of that is free, and I'm only running Firefox, Activesync and whatevers in my systemtray (AV,antispyware,Windows Desktop Search, etc.)

I also agree that ROM should be upgraded as well. After the problems I've been having with programs disappearing off my SD Cards, I consider the ROM to be precious real estate for my essential programs.


Solution: lets have MORE of BOTH! The more uber geek high tech products their are, the cheaper the middle range products become for the masses :)

[Kowalski]

am i the only one who agrees with Paragon?!
i find 64 ram and 128 rom configuration very suitable for my needs. i am sure that most of pda users dont run memory intensive applications on a daily usage. and what is that 5-6 megapixel photo editing?
boys, keep in mind that pda s are intended for pim stuff mainly. mutimedia comes next. i want my device to be small and stable. i got a small notebook for things that will requre processing power.

it is true that rom can be extended with storage card, but i want to keep my backups in the device, and install all my applications to the built in rom. stability is much more important than performance IMO

[surur]

The nice thing about PPC's is the diversity of hardware. I'm sure you will get you 64MB RAM, 128MB ROM (the Dell has this already), but I will think twice about buying the HTC universal if it does not have 128Mb ram, whereas with 128MB ram its an automatic sale.

I'm not paying $900 for a device which will die if I have 5 web pages in the background.

Surur

[Jonathan1]

Apps today aren't made for 128mb of RAM.

If you guys want better apps in the future, then the hardware has to get better first, so the developers have better tools to work with.

However, if you want to be stuck with useless apps like PIE forever, then by all means insist on less RAM :)

That's BS. PIE is the way it is because MS hasn't done crap with it. Wait a few months and let’s see how that first version of Mozilla for the Pocket PC blows it out of the water. If you NEED 128MB to RUN your application, with only a few notable exceptions where you just can't get around using RAM, you are just doing something wrong. Again with only a few notable exceptions I'd be screaming bloat over such apps. Just because your pants are 3 sizes larger then your gut doesn't give you reason to pig out and get sloppy.

[surur]

That's BS. PIE is the way it is because MS hasn't done crap with it. Wait a few months and let’s see how that first version of Mozilla for the Pocket PC blows it out of the water. If you NEED 128MB to RUN your application, with only a few notable exceptions where you just can't get around using RAM, you are just doing something wrong. Again with only a few notable exceptions I'd be screaming bloat over such apps. Just because your pants are 3 sizes larger then your gut doesn't give you reason to pig out and get sloppy.

Mozilla has a reputation of being a huge ram hog on the desktop. I don't see why the same won't be true on a pocketpc. I'm sure tabbed browsing will be the default (because its so useful). We will soon need that 128Mb RAM.

Surur

[Jonathan1]

I'm not paying $900 for a device which will die if I have 5 web pages in the background.

Surur


I'm thinking people aren't understanding how 2005 is going to work. Either that or I don't :p

Unless you are already loading all your apps into ROM (64MB or 128MB) and leaving everything in RAM open with the slider all the way over to the left so there is virtually ZERO on storage you are going currently have a setup that is actually less efficient then the way PPC2005 is going to handle it. Its late. Let me try and work this out before I pass out.

PPC 2003SE device:

64MB ROM / 128MB RAM
Slider setup to 64MB storage / 64MB open for Program.

--------------------> [Upgraded to PPC2005]

64MB ROM / 128MB RAM

64MB* of storage / 128MB open for Programs.




PPC2 2003SE device:

128MB ROM / 64MB RAM

128ROM / Slider setup to 32MBRAM of storage / 32MB open for Programs

--------------------> [Upgraded to PPC2005]

128MB ROM / 64MB RAM

128MB* of storage / 64MB open for Programs.


Again you are looking at a complete and total change in how the OS stores and runs its apps. Opening up 5 web pages isn’t going to eat 64MB of RAM period. The two above example devices actually are setup for different Pocket PC OS’s (Relative term since the PPC isn’t an OS.) The first is designed around the 2003 and prior OS and the latter is geared towards 2005. Again you aren’t losing anything on the second device and in fact its will actually polish up the device because as many a 4700 user can attest too 64MB shared between storage and program is just too tight. If anything the first device is at a disadvantage because you are stuck with only 64MB of ROM. (Better stock up on SD/CF cards.) I’m still trying to figure out what people expect to use 128MB of RAM on? Seriously? It’s not as if we’ve seen a glut of apps that have been eating 32MB of program space when run as it stands. With a few notable exceptions like Textmaker and planmaker who are offering everything and the kitchen sink in their apps. I don’t know. Not even sure if that made any sense. You will excuse me. Its ummm getting light outside. I should pass out now. *THUNK** :sleeping:

*There is obviously going to be some overhead from the OS being in ROM.

[surur]

http://surur.sytes.net/screen3.gif

Thats only 2 web pages and pocketinformant loaded. You will never be able to do this on a 64MB device!

Surur

[surur]

I'm not paying $900 for a device which will die if I have 5 web pages in the background.

Surur


I'm thinking people aren't understanding how 2005 is going to work. Either that or I don't :p

Unless you are already loading all your apps into ROM (64MB or 128MB) and leaving everything in RAM open with the slider all the way over to the left so there is virtually ZERO on storage you are going currently have a setup that is actually less efficient then the way PPC2005 is going to handle it. Its late. Let me try and work this out before I pass out.


On my 128Mb loox I have 28MB rom to install apps. Thats more than enough for most things. The only thing I installed into RAM was pocketplus, PItoday, SPB GPRS monitor, calligrapher and PI, as putting these in ROM many slow startup after soft-reset. I only use 20MB RAM at the moment for storage.

PPC 2003SE device:

64MB ROM / 128MB RAM
Slider setup to 64MB storage / 64MB open for Program.

--------------------> [Upgraded to PPC2005]

64MB ROM / 128MB RAM

64MB* of storage / 128MB open for Programs.

*Plus any old SD card >64 MB (free these days even)


PPC2 2003SE device:

128MB ROM / 64MB RAM

128ROM / Slider setup to 32MBRAM of storage / 32MB open for Programs

--------------------> [Upgraded to PPC2005]

128MB ROM / 64MB RAM

128MB* of storage / 64MB open for Programs. (plus 128MB upgrade at $200 from ppctechs)


Surur

[Menneisyys]

and what is that 5-6 megapixel photo editing?

Check out Pocket Phojo V3.0 (http://www.idruna.com/pocketphojo.html), particularly its native Wi-Fi capabilities (http://idruna.com/pocketphojo_wifi.html), compare the size, weight, battery life, price (when compared to a submini notebook like the OQO) and availability of a PDA to those of a notebook and you'll see that Pocket PC PDA's do have their place under the sun, even for professional photographers.

[Patrick Y.]

http://surur.sytes.net/screen3.gif

Thats only 2 web pages and pocketinformant loaded. You will never be able to do this on a 64MB device!

Surur

I think Surur got the point. More RAM is definately better. I believe that some program made for WM 2005 will be more complicated, which will need more RAM to run. I don't think that HTC Universal would be designed this way without a good reason. Such big company like HTC, with some many designers and workers, would have consider the factors we discussed already.

Computers have envolved throughout the history, so will Pocket PC. The first PDA came out has less than 20MB of memory and 200mhz processor(maybe worse). Though, now we have Pocket PC with 128 MB of RAM/ROM and 624mhz processor. Some people kept reminding me that handhelds will NEVER become very advanced because IT'S a handheld, not a computer. But look, why is it impossible to fit the capability of a computer into a handheld when tiny hardrives, less power-consuming processor, high resolution screen, portable keyboard/mouse, etc. are being developed? Anyway, it is IMPOSSIBLE for devices with 64MB of RAM to survive after 2 or 3 years.

[ctmagnus]

http://surur.sytes.net/screen3.gif

Thats only 2 web pages and pocketinformant loaded. You will never be able to do this on a 64MB device!

Surur

D'you know where that app came from? I googled and found ITaskMgr+NetMgr but what I downloaded runs like cr*p on my device.

[surur]

http://homepage2.nifty.com/qta/tpn/

Its the same one I use, and has not caused me any particular problems.

Surur

[gibson042]

I think the whole community has just assumed that [the HTC Universal] will have 128 MB of ROM as well, for good reason
...
As much as I love this device, I simply won't get one without at least 128 MB of ROM and 64 MB of RAM (128 MB strongly preferred, though).
Equipped with an Intel XScale 520MHz processor, 128MB RAM, 96MB ROM, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, IR, an SD/MMC slot, WCDMA/GPRS/GSM - Tri-Band 900MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz, and a 65K VGA screen
Say it ain't so!

[Darius Wey]

I think the whole community has just assumed that [the HTC Universal] will have 128 MB of ROM as well, for good reason
...
As much as I love this device, I simply won't get one without at least 128 MB of ROM and 64 MB of RAM (128 MB strongly preferred, though).
Equipped with an Intel XScale 520MHz processor, 128MB RAM, 96MB ROM, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, IR, an SD/MMC slot, WCDMA/GPRS/GSM - Tri-Band 900MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz, and a 65K VGA screen
Say it ain't so!

It is so. ;)

[Paragon]

http://surur.sytes.net/screen3.gif



That's rather good Surur you managed to teak it enough to get it all the way to 71MB...Good work! With all your efforts you're now a little better than half way there ;) No one has been trying to say that 64MB was enough, just that 128 would be better suited in ROM and 96MB in RAM, which it would appear you have demonstrated to be true. :)

Dave

[griph]

Jeez Dave et all! Can we get back to talking about the HTCU, and how pretty fab it is in black? All this romming and ramming is doing my head in! :grumble:

That machine looks sssoooooooooo much better in black. Black is what we want. I think I might even buy one in that colour (Black)! Black makes it look smaller! Black is the new silver.

Give me black!!!!! :mrgreen:

[Paragon]

You're right griph, it does look good in Black. We've had very few NON silever PPCs over the years, so it's a nice change. I think black suits this one very well.

Dave

[surur]

Dave, I wasn't even trying very hard. I'm sure I can get it up all the way to 100 MB. That was only 2 web pages simultaneously.

Surur

[Damion Chaplin]

Phew! I can't believe I read the whole thing! :D

I think we can all agree that if we had our druthers, this thing would have both 128MB of RAM and 128MB of ROM.

That being said, I think that 96MB of ROM would be sufficient if the OS and applications are being executed in 128MB of RAM. I don't think I would like 96MB of RAM.

Why oh why aren't they just putting a durned hard drive in it?! OK, so battery power would maybe be an issue, but 128MB is too small for both programs and MP3s, movies etc. We're still forced to buy an SD for mass storage. If they're moving the WM standard to utilize memory more like a desktop, I'd like to see the RAM/ROM[HD] ratio be more like a desktop.

Give me 128MB of RAM and a 4GB HD please!

[Darius Wey]

Give me black!!!!! :mrgreen:

Black's back.

Looking at the horde of new Windows Mobile 5.0 devices just released (HTC Universal, E-TEN M600, moboDA 3360, and Gigabyte Einstein), black appears to be the dominant colour. I'm certainly not complaining since I love black gadgets with a passion. 8)

[surur]

The new black Razor is very popular currently.

http://www.newsmobile.it/telefoni/news/razornero.jpg

Surur

[griph]

The new black Razor is very popular currently.
Its a good looking beast! Now (as alpha said) if we could get the Rzr running WM5 and a decent battery life .....!

[adamhill]

Want to use up 128M quick, zoom around the World! :)

http://www.brains-N-brawn.com/cfWorldWind

adam...

[thenikjones]

Dave, I wasn't even trying very hard. I'm sure I can get it up all the way to 100 MB. That was only 2 web pages simultaneously.

Surur

If anyone has a similar app to this and can load Textmaker, Planmaker and a GPS app at the same time, it'd be interesting to see the specs.

I can't currently use all 3 on my x50V.

bear in mind, the HTC is a PHONE - I can live with playing around with the settings in a PDA, when I'm using a phone I want it to work as reliably as a Nokia. My C500 Smartphone crashes every so often and so I wouldn't get another one.

[thenikjones]

The new black Razor is very popular currently.

http://www.newsmobile.it/telefoni/news/razornero.jpg

Surur

The surface finish isn't as good, tohugh, at least not the one my friend has. I'd prefer silver.

Ironically, my C500 looks silver in the areas where it has worn, whereas my silver Nokia 6310i looks black in the areas it has worn!

[Mr.Kev295]

When does the device launch in the Us will it launch on Cingular or T-mobile or both if on both carriers which one would recieve it first?