pa1mOne Finally Figuring It Out?

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://brighthand.com/article/palmOne_Announces_Mobile_Manager_Category">http://brighthand.com/article/palmOne_Announces_Mobile_Manager_Category</a><br /><br /><i>"Mobile managers are designed for customers who are eager to take full advantage of the trend toward "digital everything" -- from documents and email to music, images and video, as standalone files or in organized folders."</i> Ed Hardy at Brighthand talks a bit about the pa1mOne LifeDrive, which is a PDA with an integrated 4GB hard drive. While the specs are impressive, I do question how many PDA users will go for a device like this. We'll have to see. That isn't the point though. The point is, why, after 7+ years is pa1m just now figuring out that people want an all-in-one device? <i>"..."digital everything" -- from documents and email to music, images and video, as standalone files or in organized folders."</i> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2005/20050510-pa1monecool.gif" /><br /><br />Welcome to our world pa1m, where from 2000 and the first Pocket PCs, they have always been about digital everything. Technically you could go back even further with pure Windows CE devices like the Palm-Sized PC and Handheld PC starting in 1996.<br /><br /><i>"In studying customer trends, we found that some people want to carry dozens of documents and hundreds of songs while others want to carry a thousand-plus photos and enjoy videos," said Page Murray, palmOne vice president of marketing."</i> <br /><br />I'd like to see those studies. The footnotes might have something like "Property of Microsoft, November 1998" on it. ;) So to answer Mr. Hardy's question "Is pa1mOne Trying to Create New Category of Mobile-Computing Products?" the answer is no. They are still playing catch-up. What innovation will pa1m think of next? I bet they are cooking up something special, like being able to assign multiple categories to a single item. Or maybe they will go out on a limb and release a <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7765">PDA based on Cobalt</a>, the OS PalmSource released <a href="http://www.palmsource.com/press/2004/010604_os6.html">over a year ago</a>. 8O

[Jon Westfall]

I bet they'll find out next that some people want to run more than one program at once...

[Jonathan1]

Technically you could go back even further with pure Windows CE devices like the Palm-Sized PC and Handheld PC starting in 1996.

Yes but the diff is that the Palm Sized PC sucked massive rear end. I mean black hole type sucking. But I digress...

This is a good move on Palm1's part...to bad they don't have a modern OS to go with the modern hardware. Its like putting Windows 95C on a 2005 laptop. Why?


As for the built in hard drive. Can't wait to see how many people over the next couple years start complaining because of failed drives though. I trust those drives as far as I can toss the plant they were made in.

[whydidnt]

I find this "new market segment" hilarious as well. Let's face it, it's simply a Palm with WiFi and a hard drive. There isn't any thing revolutionary about this device. It's simple evolution. They are still hamstrug by an OS that's core features were developed about 10 years ago - based upon hardware capabilities at the time.

It's interesting to see how many different ways PalmOne can attempt to market what is basically the same product they were selling 3 years ago as a Tungsten T or Zire 71. I would venture a guess that of all the mid to high end Palm has sold over the last 2 years, a very small percent were sold to NEW customers. Most were sold to existing Palm users who were looking for the one little feature left off the previous model. Palm has stayed in business by recycling the same old stuff for years and I think the "Life Drive" may just be the end of the Life Cycle of Palm. Where do they go from here?

[Jonathon Watkins]

As for the built in hard drive. Can't wait to see how many people over the next couple years start complaining because of failed drives though. I trust those drives as far as I can toss the plant they were made in.

I've got a bit more confidence in embedded HDs, but I am still looking forward to the combo HD/Flash drives coming out soon. :)

Still, better very, very, very late than never for Palm eh! :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

As for the built in hard drive. Can't wait to see how many people over the next couple years start complaining because of failed drives though. I trust those drives as far as I can toss the plant they were made in.
Indeed, I use to laugh at this until my Microdrive died. PDAs survive quite a long time, especially the ones with removable batteries, to the point where the HDs are the shortest-lived component.

On the other hand, most iPods seem to last quite a long time...

--janak

[Darius Wey]

I'm still sceptical about how trouble-free integrated HDs in PDAs will be. Thankfully, recent advancements in HD technology have improved the shock capacities of miniature and standard hard disks, but I'd still like to see things become a little more 'standard' and ironed out before it becomes mainstream in the PDA market.

Back on the topic of this LifeDrive, it's nice to see Palm finally figuring out the importance of integrated Wi-Fi. Yes, the hard disk is nice too, but all the other specifications are a snoozer. And no Cobalt? Come on... :?

[Raphael Salgado]

Those of you who are veterans like me in the mobile computing world, it's really cool to think that several years ago, Microsoft was struggling to catch up to Palm with its fledgling devices such as the Sharp Mobilon, HP Jornada, and the Cassiopeias, among others of course, and Palm had such a stronghold on their niche in the market. Even movies loosely used the term "Palm" or "PalmPilot" when in fact some of those devices were actually Microsoft-based.

Fast forward to today and the Palm world is the fledgling one, with companies such as Tapwave, Sony, and Handspring drying out their inventories, a likely Windows port with the Treo device, and them just realizing now that people want more.

I honestly thought in my few fleeting microscopic moments in the past that Microsoft would eventually pull out of the market and leave it to Palm to dominate. But, I should have known better that that is not Microsoft's "way." Either they'll end up buying the remaining pieces of the Palm world, or Palm will dissolve into nothingness.

Of course, Microsoft is no perfect crunching megamachine. Where did I keep that copy of Microsoft Bob?

[jngold_me]

I have opportunity to go to a usergroup meeting which will feature PalmOne and the new devices. I will be real temped to mention the fact that they will be offering a device that offers features that has been offered on a PPC platform for 5 years! :roll: I'll probably get stoned (not the drug type either!) Aside from the internal HD, what else does the lifedrive do that a PPC does not?

[Darius Wey]

Aside from the internal HD, what else does the lifedrive do that a PPC does not?

Cause social dysfunction?

[stevelam]

I'm still sceptical about how trouble-free integrated HDs in PDAs will be. Thankfully, recent advancements in HD technology have improved the shock capacities of miniature and standard hard disks, but I'd still like to see things become a little more 'standard' and ironed out before it becomes mainstream in the PDA market.

Back on the topic of this LifeDrive, it's nice to see Palm finally figuring out the importance of integrated Wi-Fi. Yes, the hard disk is nice too, but all the other specifications are a snoozer. And no Cobalt? Come on... :?

I dont think we will ever see Colbat and that it is all a hoax to drive up share prices!

[jickbahtech]

Actually I think this is a good step for the company. True its evolution and not revolution, but it should keep the PPC camp on its toes hardware wise. It is sad that this thing isn't substantially different than my old m505, but what're you gonna do.

I'm not really that down on Palm. PPC has its share of oddities (the 'close program' issues for example). I hope they can get their acts in gear. I don't think the Treo can keep them afloat much longer. As a big fan of the traditional PDA, I worry that without competition (Handspring, Tapwave, Sony, Toshiba, the HP/Compaq merger) were going to see less and less innovation (or more innovation going into SmartPhones an not PDA/Phone or micro-tablet).

[Shrug] I dont know, if you say it enough people will believe it, and right now people say the PDA is dead.

[whydidnt]

I dont think we will ever see Colbat and that it is all a hoax to drive up share prices!

I'm not sure there was an attempt to deceive stock holders, but that seems to be the end result. Their is obviously something wrong with Cobalt that scares manufacturers away from it. I don't know what it is, but I would guess that it's either very unstable, or has serious compatability issues with existing software. However, all companies sooner or later have to drag themselves and their customers into the 21st century or they will end up out of business. It seems to me that PalmOne has opted for option B, and will just milk the old cow until it dies, which is sad.

I'd like to see PalmOne release a Cobalt device - warts and all - just to see how competitive it really is in the marketplace. Maybe there won't be thousands upon thousands of programs supported instantly, but if they never deliver the device, there is never incentive for developers to create programs that will run on it.

[applejosh]

I've always been a Palm user. I like the simplicity of the interface, plus I have boatloads of software I've bought over the years. I bought my first PPC a couple of years ago because I had clients getting them and wanting me to fix their problems. Kind of hard to do if you don't know what they're talking about. While I'm still not a die-hard PPC user, I do find myself using my (newer) iPAQ more and more because of features like builtin wifi (WPA capable also) and the today screen (thank goodness for PocketBreeze). I still prefer Palm for basic PIM functions (I really like DateBk more than anything on the PPC platform - this is just a personal preference so please no flames), but the T5 is really a disappointment. It's slower than the iPAQ (which is really sad when you consider that Palm apps are supposed to be execute in place), and for the price, the features are lame. I can only imagine the latency we'll see when you factor in a hard drive. Palm can say all they want about people not wanting certain features (like wifi, multi-tasking, etc.), but when the devices cost as much or more than devices in the PPC camp that offer those features, they're going to lose.

I really want Palm to do well (even from a PPC perspective, competition is good), but without competition in the PalmOS arena, I feel they'll be playing catch-up for quite some time (assuming they continue to play).

[surur]

I think an embedded HDD is a good development for a handheld device, but it will only be as good as the desktop software that comes with the device. If P1 integrates it with Rhapsody to Go, Napster to Go or iTunes they will have a chance to succeed. Do palm devices even have such a thing as a "synchronized folder". Either way they will need some clever software to make this a successful device. I understand the caching software on an Ipod is so good that normally you get 8-10 hours, but if you run the HDD non-stop you can only get 15 minutes.

If they don't replicate this performance then there will be many LifeDrive users who are upset at their daily bricks.

Surur

[whydidnt]

Either way they will need some clever software to make this a successful device. I understand the caching software on an Ipod is so good that normally you get 8-10 hours, but if you run the HDD non-stop you can only get 15 minutes.

If they don't replicate this performance then there will be many LifeDrive users who are upset at their daily bricks.

Surur

You make an excellent point Surur. I have been playing around with an OQO as a potential replacement for my PPC. However, playing media (MP3, WMA, AVI, etc) sucks the batttery life down too quickly to make it really usable in this way. That's because it doesn't copy these files into RAM before playing them, it simply reads from the hard disk, which keeps spinning burning battery juice for the entire time.

Hopefully P1 thought of this, or this device could really become an unusable brick. I agree with others comments - I want Palm to succeed, as competition is good - just look at how neglected Internet Explorer has been over the last few years. If Palm dies, it wouldn't surprise if the same happens to our Mobile devices.

[KTamas]

I bet they'll find out next that some people want to run more than one program at once...
My thoughts exactly... :roll:

[tthiel]

Reality check. Having used both Palms and Pocket PC's since the very beginning of each its not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. The battery life and speed of Pocket PC's meant that multimedia is only recently a reality. The Pocket PC interface is still horrible as is memory management. Multitasking is not a significant issue on Palms or on Pocket PCs for most users. Besides that only a tiny fraction of users care about multimedia on a handheld. Many of them are enthisiasts who follow these sites but the average business users these devices are aimed at could care less and thats why the Phone blackberries and Treos are doing so well. If you travel much you see people watching DVD's on their laptops not on their handhelds. I'm not defending Palm but your crowing about Pocket PC is not reality. As with high end Pocket PC's I think the market for a $500 Palm with a 4 GB hard drive is very limited. If I want to listen to large amounts of music I use my 40GB iPod. If I want to watch a movie I stick a DVD in my laptop instead of going through all the machinations required to run it on a tiny handheld screen.

[surur]

If I want to watch a movie I stick a DVD in my laptop instead of going through all the machinations required to run it on a tiny handheld screen.

True to a degree, but if it can be made "Apple Simple"(tm) e.g stick a DVD in your computer, it asks you if you want to rip it, it rips it for a hour in an open format, keeps it in a library, and then you select which movies you want to transfer to your device. On your device you press the "Movies" button and you get a selection of movies on your device, you chose which one to watch.

This is similar to ripping CD's currently, and people seems to have managed to do this for a while now. If it was as simple as that then I don't see why it would not take off. I don't know why no PDA OEM has done this before. I'm sure its probably due to copyright issues. Maybe P1 will be the one to pull it off.

Surur

[Damion Chaplin]

I don't know... You're probably right, but I think there's sufficient market to warrant a Pocket PC with a large hard drive.

Currently, I carry a SE bluetooth phone, an iPAQ 4155 and an Archos GMINI 400. The GMINI has a 20GB HD and plays MP3s and Divx/Xvid AVIs. There is certainly enough of a market to warrant the GMINI, so why not a HD in a Pocket PC? I could replace all three of these devices if there were just a WM Treo with a significantly-sized hard drive. I know I'm not the only one. I would venture that just about everyone who bought a GMINI also has a PDA and cell phone. If you just did the math you would find that an integrated device would still cost less than all 3 of my gadgets.

Yeah, when I want to watch a movie on a flight to New York, I will probably bring my laptop. However, in my day-to-day life, I use my GMINI every day to listen to MP3s and watch AVIs on the train (I have a 90-minute round trip commute). It's easily the best value I've ever received from a gadget purchase. The inclusion of an HD into a phone-enabled PPC (or smartphone) would make that PPC the best-valued gadget I've ever bought. Dig?

[tut00]

Having been a die hard Palm guy since the US Robotics version, all the way up untill the T5 I share my .02...

Palm is as good as dead if they don't start inovating once again. I would have loved to get a new palm, as a matter of fact the day the T3 came out, I got it, the day the T5 came out I got it...

I will not be buying any more Palms...

I have gotten sick and tired of waiting for Palm to develope something cutting edge. They have not. So I got a iPaq hx2415. While, there are features I miss, there are many new things, wifi, multi-tasking, today screen, the screen itself, and other things, that Palm just didn't offer.

I just don't see them, putting something out any time soon to make people switch to them. All they are doing by releasing new devices is trying to keep the flow of people switching from them to a trickle. However, by releasing half as@#d devices they are just driving more diehard fans away.

After a while you get tired of waiting for the next great thing. Pocket PC manufacturers already have them out!!!

-John

[Jonathon Watkins]

I don't know... You're probably right, but I think there's sufficient market to warrant a Pocket PC with a large hard drive.


You reckon? :wink: I've been expecting one for ages. Shame Palm was first out of the gate here though. :?

[Darius Wey]

You reckon? :wink: I've been expecting one for ages. Shame Palm was first out of the gate here though. :?

Not entirely. You could argue that Samsung's i300 was also the first out of the gate. While not being a Pocket PC, it still is a Windows Mobile device with an integrated HD.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Shame Palm was first out of the gate here though. :?

Not entirely. You could argue that Samsung's i300 was also the first out of the gate. While not being a Pocket PC, it still is a Windows Mobile device with an integrated HD.

True and I am only looking at Palm vs WM, not even taking the Sharp Zaurus into account.

Still, at least WM did beat Palm to the punch. :)

[bvkeen]

I have both platforms: a Dell x50v and a Palm T5, and I like both, in some respects, and dislike both in some respects. Either one pretty much does what I need to do with a handheld (I have a WiFi card for the T5). Some days I like one better than the other and some days it's the other way around. There have also been days when I've been tempted to throw both in the trash.

I may a bit older than the typical PDA user, I don't know (I'm 56), but I do know that my age gives me a perspective that I haven't seen expressed, yet. Specifically, I think back to the early morning hours decades ago when I watched the first manned moon landing, and I look at both PDAs and say "IS THIS THE BEST WE CAN DO?" I'm just amazed that handheld technology is not any farther along than it is. Sometimes I'd like to get hold of the corporate necks of both Microsoft and Palm and shake them and say "when are you going to get it right?" All you have to do is the read forums on boards for each of these devices to see a lot of dissatisfaction. Take the x50v, for example, a nice device overall, close to the top of the line and some would say at the top of the line: complaints about WiFi and Bluetooth not working at the same time, tons of complaints about memory management, and complaints about the VGA implementation of WM2003SE (not improved in WM2005) [many people use third party solutions to try to get a true VGA implementation and find that that's not quiet the perfect solution either), and, of course, the perpetual complaints that Pocket Word and Pocket Excel have been "almost useless" (seems to be resolved in WM2005). You can read numerous complaints about the T5, too (like of built-in WiFi being purt-near the top)

I'm not sure either camp can look at the other with pride and say: we've got the perfect device and you don't.

Just my 4 cents (inflation)

[Jeff Kirvin]

I bet they'll find out next that some people want to run more than one program at once...
Hate to break this to you (actually, I don't) but Palms CAN multitask, and I'm getting really, really tired of seeing this old myth trotted out.

The difference is that we're all familiar with pre-emptive multitasking, like Windows and OS X. Garnet supports co-operative multitasking, like Windows 3.1 or Mac OS 9. The biggest difference is that with co-operative multitasking, applications have to be written to support it, otherwise they don't multitask. In a pre-emptive setup, applications don't have to implicitly support multitasking; it's handled by the OS.

For example, in Garnet it's quite possible to leave your IM program running in the background while you do other things, but the IM program has to be written to support that (VeriChat does exactly this). Same for background email fetching (supported by SnapperMail, VersaMail and Chatter), maintaining network connections (handled by Garnet itself) and other cases where multitasking is useful enough to warrant writing the code to support it. Leaving a word processor running in the background is just a waste of memory on a handheld.

[Fishie]

I don't know... You're probably right, but I think there's sufficient market to warrant a Pocket PC with a large hard drive.


You reckon? :wink: I've been expecting one for ages. Shame Palm was first out of the gate here though. :?

No they werent, the Zaurus line and in the PPC camp the Mitac Mio 269 all predate the lifedrive.

[reidme]

I'm not sure either camp can look at the other with pride and say: we've got the perfect device and you don't.

Well put.

For those that want an HD in their PPC, stick a microdrive in the CF slot (unfortunately that won't improve the OS.)

[jeisner]

I was a Palm user since the original Palm Personal days (long time ago now) and have switched to PPC (even though I use Linux on desktop) after the disapointment that was the Treo 600... Not because MS produced some super great marvel of a product, but as Palm has completely lost touch with the market... They are living in the past IMO

I would love Palm to give me a reason to switch back, but they have missed the boat once again, releasing another PDA based on a OS as aging as MSDOS.. They have lost pretty much all thrird party manufacturer support, Sony I don't blame you ;)

And I doubt very much they have a chance to turnaround.. Many strong Palm supporters are leaving them and for good reason... A couple of years back I never imagined my favourite PDA news site, CliePlanet (PDA247) would become WindowsMobile247 but who can blaim Shaun with Palm's short sighted (or should I say blind) management....

[ucfgrad93]

As for the built in hard drive. Can't wait to see how many people over the next couple years start complaining because of failed drives though. I trust those drives as far as I can toss the plant they were made in.

Personally, I think they will be very reliable. After all, I don't hear the millions of iPOD owners complaining about hard drive failure.

[G M Fude]

I would love Palm to give me a reason to switch back, but they have missed the boat once again, releasing another PDA based on a OS as aging as MSDOS.. They have lost pretty much all thrird party manufacturer support, Sony I don't blame you ;)

I don't think Sony dumped Palm OS. They just got out of PDAs, period. Except in Japan, where they still sell Palm OS PDAs.

I love my Axim but I really hope WM5 is a big step up from the current OS it uses. I wish I could hack it to run Palm OS and apps; like a dual boot sort of thing.

[surur]

I would love Palm to give me a reason to switch back, but they have missed the boat once again, releasing another PDA based on a OS as aging as MSDOS.. They have lost pretty much all thrird party manufacturer support, Sony I don't blame you ;)

I don't think Sony dumped Palm OS. They just got out of PDAs, period. Except in Japan, where they still sell Palm OS PDAs.

I love my Axim but I really hope WM5 is a big step up from the current OS it uses. I wish I could hack it to run Palm OS and apps; like a dual boot sort of thing.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=39670


You must have missed this thread then. Run many of your POS apps on your pockeptc.

Surur

[G M Fude]

Thanks Surur, I did read it and I apologise for my poorly written post. What I'd actually like is an Axim that runs Palm OS, but I can boot a Windows Mobile shell on top of that to run apps like OziExplorer and Destinator. The app in that thread does the reverse.

Generally, I think most Palm apps are no better (or worse) than PocektPC apps. It's just the OS I prefer. The exception is alternative PIMs, where Pimlico Software's Datebk5 has it way over any of the PPC ones, I've tried 'em all and settled on Pocket Informant, but... (sigh)

[Darius Wey]

I don't think Sony dumped Palm OS. They just got out of PDAs, period. Except in Japan, where they still sell Palm OS PDAs.

It was more of a case of declining sales, and wanting to "get out" and avoid further losses. It's hard to say whether it was attributable to Palm OS being used, or due to the fact that CLIEs just happened to cost a lot more than anything else. We may see Sony return to the market at a later stage - but then again, we may not.

[Phillip Dyson]

After reading this article (http://www.brighthand.com/article/palmOne_LifeDrive_Review?site=Palm)over at Brighthand, I have to say that there are a few really good things inthis device.

4GB HD
2 day battery life 8O (Although I'd like to see an SPB benchmark on that).
Mounting as a HD without the need for PDA synching software This one is really nice. Imagine how your life would change if you could just plug your PocketPC into any computer and transfer data around like it was a super intelligent thumb drive. Then we wouldn't have to post every few months about "anybody know of any good file syncing sofware?"
Asthetics From all the glamour shots it seems to be pretty attractive.


As to the whole multi-tasking discussion... what does it say about the fact that Garnet's capabilities are using a 10 year-old (or is it 15) technology for task management. As I'm sure most would agree, its always bad news to put the burden of a better OS experience on the software developers. Perhaps thats evident in the fact that there are so few Palm applications that take advantage of co-operative multitasking. Atleast thats my impression from Jeff Kirvin post. I'm by no means an expert on the PalmOS software community.

I wonder how much thought Windows or Windows Mobile, or even OSX developers have to give to the subject of multitasking when they write programs?

[surur]

2 day battery life 8O (Although I'd like to see an SPB benchmark on that).

After reading this review http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=2525&amp;review=palmOne+LifeDrive its apparent that if you actually use the device the battery life is far from brilliant.

You get about 4-6 hours just playing music, and only about 100 minutes playing video. Compare this with this battery test for the current crop of high end PPC handhelds.

http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/image/vga-comparing/battery-s.png
http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/vga-comparing-en.shtml

Only the mp3 playback test is comparable, but its enough the illustrate the battery draining effect of the lifedrive, in the way they chose to implement it. Thats 4-6 hours with the screen of playing music in the lifedrive, vs 12:30 hours with the Loox 720, that has the same size of battery than the lifedrive.

That two days reminds me of the two weeks battery life claims Palm people used to brag about (but only if you use your device for 30 minutes per day :roll: )

Surur

[Gerard]

Jeff Kirvin wrote"Leaving a word processor running in the background is just a waste of memory on a handheld."

Uh-huh. And if for instance one wished to copy some text from a browser or a contact's notes field or from a document open in a secondary word processor into a document open in the primary word processor, is this not a patently useful function? Having an open document slam shut just because I want to grab a look at email or get some text from wherever is relevant to the task at hand and add it, or conversely to reference the same document multiple times while also keeping a browser window open for contributions in a forum (quoting blocks of useful text from archived docs into discussion threads, for instance) would be intolerably frustrating. Add to this the apparently crippling limit on clipboard size, and one has a profoundly limiting device in terms of any sort of serious editing. Of course, if one prefers to limit the functionality of PDA for their own use... welcome to Palm-think. 'We don't provide it because you don't need it, we think.'

I am yet again dismayed by these writings of yours Jeff. I'd not visited your site in over a year, owing to what seemed a steady and un-justifiable increase in anti-Microsoft flaming. Now I see that not only has this not changed, it has increased in both blinkered thinking and vitriolic anti-PPC content. The finger-pointing and half-truths expressed are unfortunate, especially as they seem to come while Palm device variety and sales are waning and seem likely to become a small niche market within the next few years.

There are sometimes absurd shots being taken at Palm as a whole. If Palm (pa1m0ne, PalmSource, Palm Powered, Palm-ish-whatever) were really so very bad the ccompany would have failed utterly years ao. As it is, WindowsMobile (Pocket PC, WM, WinCE, whatever) has had to fight tooth and nail for market share and whatever significant market growth it has earned. We're talking a battle of giants here, and they both provide some decent strengths for users.

Of course from the perspective of this PPC user of 5 years, Palms were never really an option. I did my research in magazines, tried a few in stores, asked around, and in the end concluded that a Casio E-115 kicked some serious multi-media @$$ on anything Palm had to offer. Hint as to why: I bought Pocket Artist within 3 months of purchasing the PPC and got heavily into Photogenics not long after, and all along was learning more and more about encoding audio and video for use with the PPC. Plainly Palm took years to catch up, and arguably they still haven't... although CorePlayer (formerly BetaPlayer) will soon be doing a heck of a job helping Palm users get what PPC users have had for years with Pocket TV, WMP, GSPlayer, and umpteen other media softwares

For the strict business user the Palms of old make perfect sense. If I wore a suit to an office I'd probably use one too. But there are a lot of users out there who, like me, are not chained to desks and want a little or a lot more variety of data handling than even the latest Palm device can offer. Unless and until Palm offers the depth of choice of use that PPCs have all along and quits riding on the past, a colour screen just is not enough to make Palm anything more than glorious black and white.

[Jeff Kirvin]

I'm not sure there was an attempt to deceive stock holders, but that seems to be the end result. Their is obviously something wrong with Cobalt that scares manufacturers away from it.

Actually, there's nothing wrong with Cobalt, but everything wrong with how it's been presented. At each milestone, PalmSource has Osborned themselves.

They released 6.0 in Dec 03 to meet an arbitrary marketing milestone. The system worked, but the UI was the same as Garnet and it was missing all the telephony stuff. Rather than tell licensees to develop that stuff on their own, PalmSource said that such features would be available in 6.1. So the licensees waited.

They released 6.1 which is a fully functional, stable OS, with full GSM telephony (no CDMA, which pissed off PalmOne/Sprint/Verizon), but as soon as it was available, they announced that Palm Linux was on the way and it would have all of Cobalt's advantages *and* the open source community for low level things like drivers. Seeing the lower development costs, the licensees waited.

And we're still waiting. Nothing's wrong with the code, but PalmSource has made it clear that you'd be stupid to buy it when the Next Big Thing is just around the corner.

[Jeff Kirvin]

As to the whole multi-tasking discussion... what does it say about the fact that Garnet's capabilities are using a 10 year-old (or is it 15) technology for task management. As I'm sure most would agree, its always bad news to put the burden of a better OS experience on the software developers. Perhaps thats evident in the fact that there are so few Palm applications that take advantage of co-operative multitasking. Atleast thats my impression from Jeff Kirvin post. I'm by no means an expert on the PalmOS software community.

But by the same token, the Palm OS method is far, far more efficient and uses less memory. Which is better for a resource-contrained mobile device?

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff Kirvin wrote"Leaving a word processor running in the background is just a waste of memory on a handheld."

Uh-huh. And if for instance one wished to copy some text from a browser or a contact's notes field or from a document open in a secondary word processor into a document open in the primary word processor, is this not a patently useful function? Having an open document slam shut just because I want to grab a look at email or get some text from wherever is relevant to the task at hand and add it, or conversely to reference the same document multiple times while also keeping a browser window open for contributions in a forum (quoting blocks of useful text from archived docs into discussion threads, for instance) would be intolerably frustrating. Add to this the apparently crippling limit on clipboard size, and one has a profoundly limiting device in terms of any sort of serious editing. Of course, if one prefers to limit the functionality of PDA for their own use... welcome to Palm-think. 'We don't provide it because you don't need it, we think.'

If you were running Palm apps coded to the official programming guidelines, you'd have no problem at all. You'd leave the word processor, do whatever, and when you come back to it, you're *exactly* where you left off. When a properly written program saves state the way it's supposed to, you really can't tell the difference between than and multitasking except that saving state wastes so much less memory.

FYI, the standard PalmOne PIM applications are improperly written and do NOT save state they way they are supposed to. Palm has great concepts, but often shoddy implementation.

I am yet again dismayed by these writings of yours Jeff. I'd not visited your site in over a year, owing to what seemed a steady and un-justifiable increase in anti-Microsoft flaming. Now I see that not only has this not changed, it has increased in both blinkered thinking and vitriolic anti-PPC content.

I call it like I see it. You may want to look again, as now I'm calling out PalmOne for their shoddy developer relations and ignoring the user community. I don't pull punches for anybody.

[Gerard]

I will go back this evening and have a look when I have some reading time. Thanks for the feedback Jeff. It's good to hear you are at least attempting an un-biased approach. When the big PALM with the red marker around it appeared (at least I seem to remember that as being your logo for a time - still?) on your site it seemed you had officially adopted that camp, forsaking others.

Unfortunately I cannot support the logic of your counter-argument. I could as easily say (in my own area of expertise) that if only the Czechoslovakian doublebass maker Dvorak made great basses, they'd be a great bass maker. Unfortunately they churn out utter crap, and no matter how my skills are pressed to their limits I cannot make any of them sound well. Or more on-topic, I could suggest that if only every company ignored Microsoft's insistence upon no exit commands, the stupid 'smart minimize' function would be rendered almost meaningless. Instead many of them, even most, insist on attempting to follow the rules and have no built-in way to exit. Pocket Artist had an Exit command until the version before last, but then Conduits wanted official certification... then it was left to a CtrlQ which almost no one knew about... then finally with version 3 they've made tapping on OK a couple of times in a row actually shut the program - apparently a workaround Microsoft's certifiers can live with. What the heck is wrong with closing programs when done with them?!! Brainless nonsense.

Whichever the mobile device OS, developers and OEMs and OS makers need to get their collective acts together and decide to make things work together. Since that sort of thing is not likely to happen any time soon, the next best thing is to allow developers the freedom to make great applications which work independent of any OS flaws or expectations which might get in the way. Saying to developers that they have to jump through hoops just to make the device look good is wishful thinking. Attributing failures of Palms to function properly with pseudo-multi-tasking to failures at the third-party developer end is a cop out.

Sure, Microsoft has trouble with the concept of limited RAM and thereby the necessity of task closing. No big deal; install any of the dozens of free or cheap task managers and deal with it. On the other hand, how exactly does one cope with Palm's own failure to implement their prized 'save state' nonsense in their own PIM apps? There's no fix, really. It's a failure, and a huge one, and they should go down in flames if they fail to fix it and quickly. Market share these days is being determined by an ever better informed usership, and getting away with such blunders is not likely.

Anyway, I'll check your site again and see what's up.

[Phillip Dyson]

As to the whole multi-tasking discussion... what does it say about the fact that Garnet's capabilities are using a 10 year-old (or is it 15) technology for task management. As I'm sure most would agree, its always bad news to put the burden of a better OS experience on the software developers. Perhaps thats evident in the fact that there are so few Palm applications that take advantage of co-operative multitasking. Atleast thats my impression from Jeff Kirvin post. I'm by no means an expert on the PalmOS software community.

But by the same token, the Palm OS method is far, far more efficient and uses less memory. Which is better for a resource-contrained mobile device?

I can see you're point on memory constraints. However, it doesn't negate the fact that I may want to do more than one thing at a time. Like read an ebook while waiting for my email or a webpage to download.

Curious... how does the Palm OS handle playing music while doing anything else?

[Jeff Kirvin]

I can see you're point on memory constraints. However, it doesn't negate the fact that I may want to do more than one thing at a time. Like read an ebook while waiting for my email or a webpage to download.

Curious... how does the Palm OS handle playing music while doing anything else?

By multitasking of course. Sounds fine. The media players are written to support background playback, and continue to stay resident much like DOS-era TSRs while you do other things. FYI, VersaMail can indeed fetch mail in the background while you read an ebook, and VeriChat can keep any number of IM sessions open while you're reading, downloading mail and listening to music.

This is my (ad nauseum) point: Palms *do* multitask. They just have a different approach than Windows Mobile. Which is better?

Well, which is the better ice cream flavor, chocolate or strawberry? Because that's what this argument boils down to.

[Gerard]

... except that in the case of this analogy, sometimes the strawberry (or is Palm chocolate?) sometimes tastes great, other times never quite gets to the tongue, depending on which developer mixed the batch. Depending for multi-tasking upon thousands of independent developers doing things just right to implement it, well, that's a bit harder to swallow than having an OS which does it all on its own. Taking care of the basics at the OS level seems to make more sense. Or have I misunderstood? Does Palm send a simple codeset to every existing developer to simply insert into the right place in their programs, enabling multi-tasking if they comply?

[Jeff Kirvin]

... except that in the case of this analogy, sometimes the strawberry (or is Palm chocolate?) sometimes tastes great, other times never quite gets to the tongue, depending on which developer mixed the batch. Depending for multi-tasking upon thousands of independent developers doing things just right to implement it, well, that's a bit harder to swallow than having an OS which does it all on its own. Taking care of the basics at the OS level seems to make more sense. Or have I misunderstood? Does Palm send a simple codeset to every existing developer to simply insert into the right place in their programs, enabling multi-tasking if they comply?

I honestly don't know. Yes, the WM way of doing things is less work on the developers, but it's also wasteful when programs don't need to stay active in the background. Palm applications, by having to write the multitasking code explicitly, don't sit around in memory unless they have a pretty good reason to be there.

It's a preference, nothing more. Neither is inherently better than the other. They both have pros and cons.

[Gerard]

and oranges, chocolate and strawberry, ford and chevy, nor any other mere preference. There is a logical break here. In one case, any of a fistful of freeware programs can be used to close applications - one is just 5kb and can be mapped to a button and/or used in the Start Menu. In the other *every* *single* *program* must incorporate code to perform the opposite, to stay running, else it is gone.

Which makes more logical sense, adding bulk and complexity to every program or adding one tool to an exit-less OS to close things generally?

[Phillip Dyson]

Which makes more logical sense, adding bulk and complexity to every program or adding one tool to an exit-less OS to close things generally?

As a software developer, my stance is that the framework/platform should always bear the burden of complexity.

It is every developers responsibility to write quality software. But in the end at is always the OS responsibly for memory management/protection.

WM memory management is far from perfect, but its where it belongs.

[Jeff Kirvin]

and oranges, chocolate and strawberry, ford and chevy, nor any other mere preference. There is a logical break here. In one case, any of a fistful of freeware programs can be used to close applications - one is just 5kb and can be mapped to a button and/or used in the Start Menu. In the other *every* *single* *program* must incorporate code to perform the opposite, to stay running, else it is gone.

Which makes more logical sense, adding bulk and complexity to every program or adding one tool to an exit-less OS to close things generally?

It's not every program. Only the ones that really need it. But you clearly don't see my point, and I no longer care to make it. Goodbye.

[Gerard]

I feel that Jeff is mistaken; I see his point, but find it fallacious and misleading, besides being overly servile to the motives and beliefs of Palm engineers. If I were to play the same game I would have to say that I liked the fact that the PPC OS contains to one-tap solution to truly close programs, that I liked dynamic memory allocation and the automated shut-down of rear-most, user-launched applications beyond a total of 32 running processes. I do not. I think that these are stupid limitations.

Deciding for the user which programs are important to multi-task is every bit as offensive as deciding for the user that they not be allowed to close applications. Each is a kind of baby-sitting, a dis-empowering of the individual user.

That you choose to say "goodbye" at this point is not terribly surprising, only dismaying, as it again demonstrates that logical argument isn't part of it for Palm users any more than it is for Mac users. It's a matter of taste. And by no means would I dare to suggest that anyone is wrong for choosing to use Mac or Palm, or a 1982 Sharp personal organizer with 16KB total memory if that's what works for you! But by the same token I feel perfectly free to offer comments and criticisms on what seem to be failures in design approaches, regardless of the platform.

Palm fan claims of Palm device stability and simplicity have gone on for years, ignoring the many users in Palm forums who have lost important data and those who find Palm-based devices difficult or impossible to use in many computing applications. Same goes for Mac fans; I have a friend who has for years been extolling the virtues and stability of Mac computers to the point of boastingg he never needs to make backups. Well, he lost his entire email databases the other day, addresses and all. Gone, poof. Guess nobody is perfect... funny though, just a while before that happened one might swear Mac was.

The question I am asking, and which Jeff seems unable or unwilling to answer, is one of honest logical sort. What makes more sense, to keep simple tasks like multi-tasking and program closing as unified and simple as possible or to make everyone join in the decision making process about where priorities lie? Do you serious want every third-party developer to have to make a decision about what percentage of users will want to keep their particular application running in the background or not? Do you then want these same developers assessing these best guesses (for how could they possibly know?), deciding based on personal taste, ethical judgement, and coin toss whether to take the trouble to implement the extra coding? I don't. Just as I don't want PPC developers deciding not to include an exit function in their menus.

Imagine a game like Tomb Raider not having an exit command! It's a massive RAM gobbler. If instead of allowing one to close it, instead it allowed one to move it to the background, every other program would run like molasses. Without a native taskbar such as GigaBar it would be very difficult to see what was running, and many users would become frustrated, forgetting that heavy game or movie or whatever running in the background. Fortunately many PPC developers are smart enough to include a simple exit command, losing the right to Microsoft's seal of approval, but I think not losing much in sales.

Keeping options open = good.
Limiting user options = bad.

[Janak Parekh]

I feel that Jeff is mistaken; I see his point, but find it fallacious and misleading, besides being overly servile to the motives and beliefs of Palm engineers.
Indeed, I too believe he is wrong in this matter. Every other mobile OS enables all applications to multitask -- Symbian, Linux, and Windows Mobile. Only Palm has this insistence on leaving everything up to developers. Not only does it make end-users dependent on developers in implementing these features, which they may not, but it adds to the work of developers. Worse, it allows for a nonuniform implementation.

They're not equivalent, as he implies. While WM's multitasking has its share of problems, the OS-level multitasking is de facto in the computer industry, both mobile and desktop, for a good reason.

--janak

[mangochutneyman]

I can see you're point on memory constraints. However, it doesn't negate the fact that I may want to do more than one thing at a time. Like read an ebook while waiting for my email or a webpage to download.

Curious... how does the Palm OS handle playing music while doing anything else?

Yeah, but you can already do that on the Treo right now!! :?

[mangochutneyman]

I feel that Jeff is mistaken; I see his point, but find it fallacious and misleading, besides being overly servile to the motives and beliefs of Palm engineers.
Indeed, I too believe he is wrong in this matter. Every other mobile OS enables all applications to multitask -- Symbian, Linux, and Windows Mobile. Only Palm has this insistence on leaving everything up to developers. Not only does it make end-users dependent on developers in implementing these features, which they may not, but it adds to the work of developers. Worse, it allows for a nonuniform implementation.

They're not equivalent, as he implies. While WM's multitasking has its share of problems, the OS-level multitasking is de facto in the computer industry, both mobile and desktop, for a good reason.

--janak

First of all, Palm (soon to be formerly PalmOne) is the hardware unit, not the OS part. Secondly PalmSource[ is the one that develops the OS and it has already developed an multitasking/multithreading os called Cobalt many months ago. Unfortunately, besides the Oswin smartphone, there haven't been any cobalt devices to hit the market yet...

[Gerard]

So the hair-splitting continues? PPC/WM are the OS... or the hardware? Oh, wait, there are over 20 OEMs making PPCs, and they all multi-task. Fine, that part's clear. Now... pa1mOne and/or PalmSource or ¶@1m or whatever, a schizoid mess frankly, is leaving established users wondering what the heck is going on with the business, the new/old/un-available OS... not much fun, it seems.

I am less than impressed with Microsoft's vision for the PPC, especially in terms of market awareness efforts, but variety and potency are at least growing. My investment in time with the platform is seemingly not soon to become irrelevant. Palm, in contrast, seems to be cutting losses here and there, taking big hits like Sony bailing, and not bothering to fully serve their public (as delivery of an improved OS might). Enormous money will be spent in the.next few years converting back to the old 'Palm' label. A bit of relief is most of what I feel; I came so close to going with a Palm as my first computing device back in 2000.

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah, but you can already do that on the Treo right now!! :?
From what I've heard, the multitasking on the Treo is limited at best. I've heard lots of complaints of music skipping when anything heavy is done...?

Secondly PalmSource[ is the one that develops the OS and it has already developed an multitasking/multithreading os called Cobalt many months ago.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Cobalt doesn't expose more of the multitasking, e.g., applications still have to be designed to run in the background. In my opinion, that defeats the purpose.

--janak

[Phillip Dyson]

The fact of the matter is that PalmSource themselves has admitted that the current OS (in any version) simply does not cut it anymore.

Thats why they're running to Linux to take them into the future (or is it the present?).

PalmOS was okay as an organizer platform. Just like the stuff on my v600 was okay for a dumb phone(okay I hated the v600, but Nokias are generally okay).

Like many companies they're going to turn their future over to the Open source community for survival.

[surur]

Like many companies they're going to turn their future over to the Open source community for survival.

mmm... interesting perspective... Like Novell and Sun, and Netscape.... and now Nokia....

mmmm

Surur

[mangochutneyman]

So the hair-splitting continues? PPC/WM are the OS... or the hardware?

Splitting hairs? :? HUH? I'm saying there are two companies here that's all. Blame PalmOne (Palm) about the hardware if you want, and blame PalmSource for the OS.

Palm, in contrast, seems to be cutting losses here and there, taking big hits like Sony bailing, and not bothering to fully serve their public (as delivery of an improved OS might). Enormous money will be spent in the.next few years converting back to the old 'Palm' label. A bit of relief is most of what I feel; I came so close to going with a Palm as my first computing device back in 2000.

Again, the confusion about the palms...well I guess this is a prime example of why PalmOne bought back the 'Palm" brand for ~30 million (not too much imo actually). Also, Sony bailed out of the entire pda market, not just palmos. This was of course bad for the palmos platform, but really has no bearing on what PalmOne does. PalmSource did deliver a new OS nearly 14 months ago, but no lisencee has yet released a cobalt based device. Blame this on PalmSource for failing to market their product well.

[mangochutneyman]

From what I've heard, the multitasking on the Treo is limited at best. I've heard lots of complaints of music skipping when anything heavy is done...?


That's not realy accurate. Most of the skipping users refer to is while using Ptunes. However the bundled Real player, while not as fully featured as Ptunes (and as a result not as proc intensive), I've found is much much better for backround playback with hardly any skipping at all.


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Cobalt doesn't expose more of the multitasking, e.g., applications still have to be designed to run in the background. In my opinion, that defeats the purpose.

--janak

Jeff Kirvin actually had a very nice article explaining the multithreading methods used in Cobalt:


In Cobalt, applications are written to run in multiple "threads". This means that instead of having one big program, you have two or more mini-programs working together but somewhat independently. A music player would have one thread to control the main interface screen, a different thread to actually decode and play music, and perhaps a third to pop up a little mini-console to control the player when the main screen isn't your current application. A web browser would have one thread for displaying web pages and a different thread for going out on the web and fetching those pages into your local cache. The background threads of these applications (the fetch process for the browser and the decode/play process for the music player) tend to be far smaller and more efficient than entire applications to do the same thing.

http://writingonyourpalm.net/column040315.htm

According to Palmsource, it really is only a matter of simple recompile for most apps following "proper palmos protocols" to take advantage of multithreading. Thus I think your arguement is a bit overblown quite frankly...

[mangochutneyman]

The fact of the matter is that PalmSource themselves has admitted that the current OS (in any version) simply does not cut it anymore.

Thats why they're running to Linux to take them into the future (or is it the present?).

PalmOS was okay as an organizer platform. Just like the stuff on my v600 was okay for a dumb phone(okay I hated the v600, but Nokias are generally okay).

Like many companies they're going to turn their future over to the Open source community for survival.

http://www.1src.com/forums/showpost.php?p=824174&amp;postcount=47

IMO that explains really why there hasn't been any Cobalt based device yet from PalmOne...

[Janak Parekh]

Jeff Kirvin actually had a very nice article explaining the multithreading methods used in Cobalt:
Exactly -- that just summarizes the multithreading capabilities of Cobalt and confirms my suspicions. Again, it's up to the developer to split their program into threads and make sure certain ones have flags set for background operation. While this is a workable solution, it harkens back, in some ways, to the days of cooperative multitasking -- that is, onus on the developer to ensure their program multitasks properly. Most of the rest of the industry has moved on to having the OS provide multitasking services for all applications while allowing applications some finer-grained control when they need to move their priority up and down. This reduces the dependence on the developer.

IMO that explains really why there hasn't been any Cobalt based device yet from PalmOne...
I don't see how you're really disagreeing with our points in that post. :P The fact of the matter is that Cobalt, as it stood in 6.0, was effectively DOA for both PalmOne and other licensees, be it because it's lacking the necessary Smartphone APIs or for other reasons. Compare this to Microsoft, which has maintained tight control on the OS and has readily released updates to the entire platform, making it easy for OEM customization and deployment.

--janak

[Jeff Kirvin]

Exactly -- that just summarizes the multithreading capabilities of Cobalt and confirms my suspicions. Again, it's up to the developer to split their program into threads and make sure certain ones have flags set for background operation. While this is a workable solution, it harkens back, in some ways, to the days of cooperative multitasking -- that is, onus on the developer to ensure their program multitasks properly. Most of the rest of the industry has moved on to having the OS provide multitasking services for all applications while allowing applications some finer-grained control when they need to move their priority up and down. This reduces the dependence on the developer.

Okay, it's taken me a few days to figure out what was bugging me about this argument and what I obviously wasn't explaining properly. Here's the thing.

The WM model is much easier for developers. No doubt about this. But who buys the devices? Who uses them on a day to day basis? Who, in fact, do the developers absolutely depend on?

It's all about the user experience. And on a resource-limited handheld, especially since handheld generally don't support the swap file tricks desktops use, the PalmSource style of multitasking is much, much more efficient. More efficient use of memory leads to a snappier, more reliable user experience.

Both systems have their compromises, true. But I'd rather make a little more work for the developer than make a little more frustration for the user.

[Janak Parekh]

It's all about the user experience.
Yes, but I argue having the OS support more of these features, including multitasking, should in theory improve the user experience. Relying on developers to incorporate multitasking into their product can result in inconsistent applications -- or worse -- some programs won't ever be rewritten to support multitasking.

As to WM being sluggish about it, if MS were to fix the darn Close button (:roll:) and do some performance optimization, I believe they'd be able to accomplish more than acceptable performance while offering the same multitasking mechanisms that are currently in WM.

And, practically, most recent WM devices are very decent at multitasking despite this. On my Smartphone, I'm always running 5 programs, but almost never notice any performance difference between running one or running 5. Time will tell if new PalmSource releases remain snappier.

--janak

[Gerard]

Making efficient use of limited resources; that's definitely a big part of Palm's (-Source, -One, -whatever -- sorry, but Palm is Palm, regardless of squabbling or re-arranging) past success. Where PPC models have been beefed up with more and more RAM, faster processors, broader expansion potential, more desktop-like flexibility etc., Palm's soft- and hardware have provided a fairly consistent and potent PIM experience. Of course the Palm side has (slowly, kicking and screaming) brought increasing powers (with Palm execs all along telling users how superfluous are the flashy 'extras' of the PPC).

Snappy performance is often the real experience with a PPC as well. It is at times painfully not so, especially when a user gets into several dozen or more third-party installations.

I currently have 64 programs and plugins listed in my installation list, with another 20 or so standalone programs not listed. That's more scaled-down than I used to run, as this X5 is a bit memory leaky under WM2003, but is still a heck of a lot more than many users run. My device responds easily as fast as I can tap, with more than 75% of my use. Slowdowns while running heavier applications such as Pocket Artist or Textmaker can be aggravating, and I hope that moving to a 128MB RAM device before too much longer will resolve this. Otherwise I have very few speed complaints.

The time when the snappiness difference was most recognizable was when a typical PPC ran between 16 and 32MB RAM, and a 133 or 206MHz processor. 33MHz Palms of those few years ago were startlingly faster in typical operations, if lacking in the multi-media department. Hardware and OS refinements have closed the speed gap, even as Palm-based devices have sought to catch up by adding formerly rejected (as being unnecessary) capabilities and have suffered commensurate drops in vaunted battery life. It's close to a level playing field these days, more a matter of user preference or 'flavour' than actual advantage for either. And as we're seeing, with Palm's steady decline and PPC's steady growth, the PPC/WM 'flavour' tastes better to more users. I'd suggest that true multi-tasking accounts for a big part of that. Surely it is not advertising, for such is practically non-existent on the PPC side.

[surur]

On PPC's there's just a more PC like experience. If they actually added a task bar (with icons) they would reduce the learning curve even further.

There was a time when people were scared of computers and had to be molly-coddled by the simplistic Palm UI. That time is now long over.

Surur

[Jeff Kirvin]

All I can say, guys, is that my experience differs from yours. Remember, I used to be a contributing editor here and I used Pocket PCs exclusively for three years. I know how Windows Mobile works.

And this weekend I compared my T5 to an HP hx4700. The HP was much slower to accomplish even simple tasks despite a 624-416 MHz edge.

Windows Mobile is more powerful, Palm OS is more efficient. Which matters more is a personal choice. Neither is inherently better than the other.

[Phillip Dyson]

Jeff,

I have to admire your endurance in this thread. I'm sure you were aware that you were stepping on to PPC holy ground when you started posting.
:D

Besides, in the end its mostly philosophy. Often it turns into bad religion.

In the case of MS' unclosable programs its bad philosophy.

[Jeff Kirvin]

Jeff,

I have to admire your endurance in this thread. I'm sure you were aware that you were stepping on to PPC holy ground when you started posting.
:D

Besides, in the end its mostly philosophy. Often it turns into bad religion.

In the case of MS' unclosable programs its bad philosophy.

I don't feel too threatened here. I used to be one of you.

Your point about philosophy is what I'm getting at. There are two ways to handle multitasking on a mobile device, and it pretty much comes down to personal preference which one you prefer.

[Janak Parekh]

I have to admire your endurance in this thread. I'm sure you were aware that you were stepping on to PPC holy ground when you started posting.
In our defense, we're not blind followers of Pocket PCs. We criticize various aspects of them all the time.

In the case of MS' unclosable programs its bad philosophy.
You'll get no debate on this from most of the PPCT editors. But that is a little different than the multitasking discussion being highlighted here.

--janak

[Phillip Dyson]

I have to admire your endurance in this thread. I'm sure you were aware that you were stepping on to PPC holy ground when you started posting.
In our defense, we're not blind followers of Pocket PCs. We criticize various aspects of them all the time.

In the case of MS' unclosable programs its bad philosophy.
You'll get no debate on this from most of the PPCT editors. But that is a little different than the multitasking discussion being highlighted here.

--janak

Well, some are blind followers. They live in every kind of group, but intelligent discussion is always good.

I think the close issue is related. Because where Palm seems to discourage it by making it off the beaten path, MS insists on it by not wanting anything to close on its own.

[Gerard]

I'd not place myself in the true believer camp, quite the opposite really. I've plenty of beefs with Microsoft, foremost with the nightmare that is my old PC, but with various versions of the PPC OS as well. Glitchy reminder databases and reliability are right up there around the top of the rants list. But I have enjoyed all the many things which have worked, in spite of all the wasted time fighting the things which haven't in the past 5 years.

I have been trying to stick to the thread subject, which seems to be about whether or not Palm is coming around to doing things 'right' whatever that might mean. The failure to get the more than a year old new OS into even one marketed device and the ridiculously power-consumptive microdrive implementation of the Life Drive are just a couple of the major pointers to the con argument - though perhaps they're patching the drive buffer behavior?

Anyway, in terms of Palm doing things more efficiently, as Jeff keeps stating... seems I must harken back to another users recent comment in this thread. That person (I forget whom) said that they'd recently found the Treo to skip very little when playing music in the background. Hm. I've got GSPlayer, nPOPw, File Explorer, 3 Pocket IE windows, and all my background junk running on this glitchy old Dell X5. There's a serious audio driver bug in Dell's rendition of WM2003 for this device, and Dell's patch just makes it worse so I don't use that. It makes for difficulty adjusting volume, with sharp static unless I adjust up and down a couple or a few times to get it to stop. GSPlayer lets me accomplish that in a second or two. Very device/OS-specific problem, and not my point. But I'm playing tunes as I type into this page, which just loaded while I was listening. I have not heard any pauses or glitches since starting to listen to this Be Good Tanya's album 15 minutes ago. My Belkin keyboard driver is active, GigaBar is running, my Symbol Wi-Fi CF card's two programs are running, so are FontOnStorage, gsGetFile.dll, SystemPath, SuperAlertSE... and probably a thing or two I'm forgetting. Oh yeah, and cLaunch and WeatherPanel on the Today screen. I just opened File Explorer, switched to sort by type (the slowest, most RAM-intensive sort operation of any file manager app I know), and tapped the Windows folder. Took about 10 seconds to gradually load the folder full of junk, but nope, not a trace of interruption in the sweet singing of 'Lonesome Blues'.

Let's see, what could I do to try and make the music skip? How about I load Pocket Artist. That's got to do it! Ah, there's a quarter-second pause, at last. So my PPC is 'human' after all, just like a Treo 650....... only, it's probably doing several times as much work keeping all that stuff running than the Palmish Treo was for the test, right?

So really, how well does Palm multi-task? I'm genuinely, un-sarcastically curious Jeff and others. Could you humour me a little, get a few apps running at once, things which the developers have tailored to multi-thread/multi-task so they're really running all at the same time? Then launch an MP3 file and switch back to a browser and start entering data into a dialogue such as this, see how it runs. If smoothly without interruptions, great, I'd love to know about it.
You see, my little brother is still holding off buying a PDA until he feels fully comfortable with a decision. Taking his sweet time about it. He's a film director/animator, top level sort with a sports car and fancy house and all that crap, but is making do with a phone for now because he wants a really killer PDA that'll do most everything and not be obsolete for at least a year or two. He's had a Palm a few years ago, but it died, cost him all his information. He'd consider a Palm again if I could assure him it'd be great. Frankly I don't know what to say. For his needs, something like the Asus P505 would probably be nice, or maybe a Treo, though he's heard from underlings using them that they're not so hot. A Life Drive won't do, as it has to be a phone too. He's likin' the Jam, but mostly for the iPod aesthetic. What say you; could he get everything phone and PDA-wise out of a Treo or something else Palmish and still listen to tunes, or not? Money is irrelevant. Massive performance and reliability are everything to him. He's got state-of-the-art PC and Mac notebooks with all the bells and whistles, and is comfortable with Unix mainframes, so OS is also irrelevant. If Apple put out a phone/PDA tomorrow he'd probably just buy that. Seems relevant, maybe helping to bring some focus to this subject - any takers?