Much More For Less and Less For More

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4174587.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4174587.stm</a><br /><br /></div><i>"Things are getting cheap. And I mean, "things". Things you can touch and feel. Not intangible services, but manufactured goods. . . . Indeed, about six hours work at the British minimum wage will probably now earn you enough to pay for a microwave oven. The prices of services on the other hand - particularly the labour intensive services - keep up with earnings. Six hours of minimum wage work would probably not pay for a plumber to replace a washer. Now this development has some interesting consequences: the cheaper goods become, the more casual we are about how we consume them. "</i><br /><br />This BBC news story provides a thoughtful perspective on the rise of the 'disposable society'. Since the UK consumer price index was launched in 1996, the price of 'goods' has fallen by an average of 2%, while the prices of services has risen by 35%. It's often cheaper to throw things away and upgrade, rather than repairing something. This is a rational choice when faced with a choice of fixing a microwave for £85 or getting a brand new one with more features for £80. On the other hand, you need to think about the quality of newer goods and the impact of the environment and labour market etc. The article points out that we have barely begin working through the consequences of these changes. I had noticed recently that computer equipment and PDAs seems to have gotten much cheaper (than usual), but this article really made me start thinking about the implications. Could this shift in expectations partially explain why some OEMs seem to be trying to turn Pocket PCs into 'appliances' with limited firmware fixes and no OS upgrades? What are your thoughts about a 'disposable' world?

[Alpha2004]

Ipod shuffle

*cough*

[dma1965]

What is really sad is how almost everything you buy these days is made in China and almost always inferior to the same item when it was made by the country where it originated. I will spend WEEKS looking for an item which is not made in China when I want to make a hard goods purchase which I am not pressed for time on, and sometimes I cannot even find the item made anywhere else but China. A good friend of mine works for a company which markets home aquarium supplies, and everything used to be made right in the plant where he works, and now it has all moved to China because (the example he gave) a part which costs $1.25 to make here in the US costs about 40 cents made in China and that is the total cost delivered right to the company ready to put on the store shelf. So, when someone complains that the Chinese made item breaks down (and it breaks down about 40% faster than the US made item), they just send a new one to the consumer, and they can afford to do this twice and still make more money than before. So, frankly, they do not care that the item is inferior. Really sad, when you think about it. I now scour flea markets and garage sales for old US, German, Italian made hard goods, which, though old and used, are still about 5 to 10 times better made than the Chinese garbage being shoved down our throats today. I think this disposable attitude really sucks. It is becoming totally accepted, and I feel it is creating a generation of people with less pride in what they do, and more greed. :evil:

[Rob Alexander]

It's even worse in the US than in the UK (where the article was written). In the US, we have 4.5% of the world's population, but consume about 25% of all commercially traded commodities. We also consume 26% of the world's oil, 24% of the aluminum, and 20% of the copper. The average American uses nearly 1,000 pounds of raw materials a day, including 40 pounds of fossil fuels, 29 pounds of other minerals, 26 pounds of farm products, 22 pounds of wood and paper and 119 gallons of water.

We produce well too! For example, we produce 50% of the world's toxic wastes, 26% of the nitrogen oxides, 25% of sulfer oxides, and 36% of the world's greenhouse gases. We also produce 160 million tons of garbage each year, including 50 million tons of paper, 67 billion cans and bottles, 25 million styrofoam cups and 18 billion disposable diapers.

Part of the reason we consume so much is that, as the article implies, we have the costs all wrong. If you watch the bargain sites, you'll find it's cheaper to buy a new inkjet printer with cartridges than to buy new cartridges for your existing printer. If prices of goods actually included the full costs of producing that good (including the environmental cost of production and the cost of proper disposal), then you would see a much more efficient (and less wasteful) economy.

[surur]

Could this shift in expectations partially explain why some OEMs seem to be trying to turn Pocket PCs into 'appliances' with limited firmware fixes and no OS upgrades? What are your thoughts about a 'disposable' world?

Err...NO! Pocketpc's are cheaper, but they are far from cheap in the disposable sense. Many times the labour to produce the OS upgrade has been done already (as can be seen by the wm 2003SE upgrade available at XDA Developers.com) but the company just refuses to release it.

All the other rational excuses are clearly bogus accept that the companies are FORCING us to think of our devices as disposable, by refusing to provide cheap upgrades.

Its like the inkjet example above. There is no rational reason why the ink should cost more than the printer, accept that the company can make more money in the long run this way. The article talks about a consumer driven rational revolution, but on the computer side we see a lot of very overt market manipulation instead.

Surur

Edit:

On re-reading what Jonathon wrote, he is clearly saying the OEM's are taking advantage of our expectations from other areas to reduce their support in general. I'm sure this is true, and that makes them part of the problem, and the people that collude with them in this, by AGREEING that pocketpc's are disposable appliances, part of the problem too.

[frankenbike]

My father's comment: "No matter how cheap the labor is, how can a computer keyboard be produced in China, shipped 10,000 miles, imported, distributed and then sell for $4?"

However, this has been true of such things as VCRs for some time. I had some very specialized VCRs with nice features that cost me over $200 each to fix.

Finally, this year I bought a DVD/VCR combo with fewer moving parts

[Snail]

Part of the reason we consume so much is that, as the article implies, we have the costs all wrong. If you watch the bargain sites, you'll find it's cheaper to buy a new inkjet printer with cartridges than to buy new cartridges for your existing printer. If prices of goods actually included the full costs of producing that good (including the environmental cost of production and the cost of proper disposal), then you would see a much more efficient (and less wasteful) economy.

Rob's got it spot on... Everybody actively seeks out the best bargains, regardless of the hidden environmental costs. In the UK, new laws are coming into force to make companies pay for the disposal of electronic goods. Naturally, most have got rid of all their old equipment before payment became mandatory... Maybe systems to force people to pay for responsible disposal of goods would help (or drive them to illegal dumping... it's a tricky balance)

The consumer would seriously think about buying goods if the prices reflected the true costs. For example, in the UK fuel costs about $6 a gallon. True, 75% of the cost is tax, but the price is a fair reflection of the environmental costs. I wonder how Americans would respond to a trebling of fuel prices? (and don't get me started on aviation... :soapbox: )

So, I think we do take our disposable economy for granted. Unfortunately, nothing will change until the products we buy and use actually reflect the real costs of production, environmental impact and disposal. While we can buy things ever more cheaply, we will continue down this slippery slope.

Brian

[Narny]

I think this disposable attitude really sucks. It is becoming totally accepted, and I feel it is creating a generation of people with less pride in what they do, and more greed. :evil:

I'm concerned about the environmental issues too. I hate needless waste. But, it was dma1965's comment above, particularly the word pride, that really struck a chord.

I have found it distressing to watch the demise of HP as they traded their position of world class producer of the best products money could buy, e.g. their beautiful pocket calculators, for one of selling the same rubbish as everyone else but hoping to charge slightly more by trading off their old reputation. Engineers laid off to be replaced by marketing gurus.

The word "profit" is always used to justify these actions, but surely there must be more to the existance of a company than that? What happened to pride? To striving to be the best? Perhaps the pendulum will swing back one day soon and those who wish to spend more for a superior product can be happy again. Perhaps even the rebirth of HP with a certain C.F. (at whose feet I lay all blame) replaced by one of Bill Hewlett's or David Packard's descendants.

[rangor]

manufactured goods. . . . Indeed, about six hours work at the British minimum wage will probably now earn you enough to pay for a microwave oven.

I think the BBC is slightly off the mark here, 6 hours at minimum wage (before tax) is £29.10, a far cry from the price of a microwave especially after income tax has been deducted.

Just wanted a rant...

[Jonathon Watkins]

On re-reading what Jonathon wrote, he is clearly saying the OEM's are taking advantage of our expectations from other areas to reduce their support in general. I'm sure this is true, and that makes them part of the problem, and the people that collude with them in this, by AGREEING that pocketpc's are disposable appliances, part of the problem too.

Cheers for that Surur. I'm glad you see I was commenting and not condoning. Personally I think that part of HP's PPC problem stems from thier previous poor support of firmware and OS updates. That's why a lot of folks are moving away from them. I total reject the premise that PPCs are disposable applications. I would like to keep my PPC for a few years at least and would like the opportunity to pay for an OS upgrade (or they can give me on if they like ;-)).

I agree with you that we should not agree with the OEMs. ;-) Demand better support and move to the OEMs that deliver it!

[Jonathon Watkins]

manufactured goods. . . . Indeed, about six hours work at the British minimum wage will probably now earn you enough to pay for a microwave oven.

I think the BBC is slightly off the mark here, 6 hours at minimum wage (before tax) is £29.10, a far cry from the price of a microwave especially after income tax has been deducted.

Actually Rangor, the BBC are spot on. If you look at the Comet webpage (http://www.comet.co.uk/cometbrowse/category.do?refineSearch=true&amp;brand=-9999&amp;loPrice=25&amp;hiPrice=75&amp;features=&amp;loValues=&amp;hiValues=&amp;categoryId=25&amp;searchStatus=false) you will find two microwaves for less than £30. I know what you mean about tax, but 6 hours at the minimum wage will hardly attract a heavy tax burden. The BBC have been known to be right occasionally! ;-)

[jlp]

...So, I think we do take our disposable economy for granted. Unfortunately, nothing will change until the products we buy and use actually reflect the real costs of production, environmental impact and disposal. While we can buy things ever more cheaply, we will continue down this slippery slope.
...

Brian,

These comments coming from somebody who owns over a dozen 8O PDAs, most of which certainly still work is slightly... amusing :lol:.

[jlp]

Everybody please don't pound too much on the Chinese. They've had one of the most brilliant, finest and longest lasting civilisation in history along with the Indians (of India).

The fact is many occidental companies (as well as local ones (from China, Japan, etc.)) DO exploit underpaid, overworked local poor workers - modern day slaves. They favor only higher production unit numbers and for this keep quality (and wages) low and work hours insanely high.

Don't blame the Chinese, but rather stinkingly greedy corporate people.

Even once highly reputable companies like Disney are tainted by these scandals.

Once upon a time people aimed at quality and product/company longevity even at a higher products price.

Today's only "acceptable" 3 buzz words in corporations are 1) profit, 2) profit and 3) profit, even at higher human and environmental costs.

[Snail]

Snail wrote:
...So, I think we do take our disposable economy for granted. Unfortunately, nothing will change until the products we buy and use actually reflect the real costs of production, environmental impact and disposal. While we can buy things ever more cheaply, we will continue down this slippery slope.
...



Brian,

These comments coming from somebody who owns over a dozen PDAs, most of which certainly still work is slightly... amusing .

... :oops:... guilty as charged!

In my defence, I have passed many on to others, who are indeed still using them! Only the Newtons remain in my collection and get dusted down every now and again.

I'm also not really getting at the Far East - it's important that everyone looks at the global implications of what we're is doing. The world needs to take ownership of its actions and make sure the planet is habitable for future generations. Of course Western greed plays a big part in making sure that ideology is largely ignored (for now...)

[raeble]

manufactured goods. . . . Indeed, about six hours work at the British minimum wage will probably now earn you enough to pay for a microwave oven.

I think the BBC is slightly off the mark here, 6 hours at minimum wage (before tax) is £29.10, a far cry from the price of a microwave especially after income tax has been deducted.

Just wanted a rant...

Nope actually he's spot on haven't you been into argos (http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?perPage=10&amp;storeId=10001&amp;catalogId=3151&amp;langId=-1&amp;currPage=1&amp;searchTerms=MICROWAVE&amp;searchScope=458&amp;searchType=&amp;viewType=seeAll&amp;maxResults=43&amp;fltrCatIds_0=21255&amp;catId_0=21255&amp;catName_0=Household+appliances&amp;catHits_0=43&amp;catId_1=22003&amp;catName_1=Toys+and+baby&amp;catHits_1=1&amp;catId_2=21392&amp;catName_2=Homewares&amp;catHits_2=1&amp;sortBy_1=32768&amp;x=10&amp;y=5) lately? Of course, everything is made in china these days.