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GSmith
01-09-2005, 03:02 PM
I have created a summary of the media players available for the Pocket PC. It is I think generally useful even though I have created it in support, really, of my podcatching RSS Aggregator available at www.FeederReader.com.

I am seeking comments, improvements or corrections on these pages.
Summary Chart: http://www.feederreader.com/mediachart.html
Player Descriptions: http://www.feederreader.com/mediaplayers.html

Also, if anyone knows of any player that meets the criteria mentioned here: http://www.feederreader.com/mediadevelopers.html

I'd be very grateful if you could point me to it!

Menneisyys
01-09-2005, 07:59 PM
I have created a summary of the media players available for the Pocket PC. It is I think generally useful even though I have created it in support, really, of my podcatching RSS Aggregator available at www.FeederReader.com.

I am seeking comments, improvements or corrections on these pages.
Summary Chart: http://www.feederreader.com/mediachart.html
Player Descriptions: http://www.feederreader.com/mediaplayers.html

Also, if anyone knows of any player that meets the criteria mentioned here: http://www.feederreader.com/mediadevelopers.html

I'd be very grateful if you could point me to it!

Great review/list! I'm going to post some remarks / additions / minor corrections to the linked Yahoo group. Should I post them here too? The Yahoo group seems to be pretty busy and not really related to this topic.

GSmith
01-09-2005, 09:24 PM
Either way your comments will be integrated. Posting here might be best as your comments will be reviewed by those experienced with Media Players.

Let the discussion commence!

Menneisyys
01-10-2005, 09:55 AM
Some comments to http://www.feederreader.com/mediaplayers.html :

Platform4 Player for Pocket PC 3.0 - Philips
Status: Untested
Formats: mp4, m4r , aac, amr

Its MP4 support is very bad. I've tested it with two additional MP4's (the first was its own MP4 file, which it played OK):

1, an MP4 file created with PL720's built-in Camera app
2. http://www.digimax.com.tw/MPEG4/download/hc/Digimax_CF2.mp4

It wasn't able to play them, while BetaPlayer could play the latter.

PictPocket Cinema - Digisoft
Status: Untested
Formats: QuickTime
Cost: $
Special Capabilities: Streaming

As for M-JPEG / MPEG1/ QuickTime compatibility:

Casio: - (unknown image format)
HP: +
Canon: +
Nikon : +

where I've used four different video files, produced by four different, well-known cameras (Casio QV-2900UX (M-JPEG), HP Photosmart 850 (MPEG1); Canon Digital IXUS 40 (M-JPEG); Nikon Coolpix 2000 (QuickTime)). The video formats used by these cameras are almost always the same in the other cameras of the same manufacturer.

MP4: +/-/- (the first being the MP4 file shipped with the Philips player)

Its biggest problem for VGA users is that it's only usable in true QVGA mode, unlike BetaPlayer. Verdict: the latter is better in all respects (price, compatibility, VGA).

11/26/04 - "The only program for Pocket PC that supports
MPEG-1, AVI, QuickTime, WMV and ASF video as well as JPEG,
BMP, TIF and many more." [I don't know if this "only program" is true.]

Definitely not true. BetaPlayer has much broader (real) compatibility. As for "plain" image formats, tons of image viewers are better. And, WMV/ASF is only supported through the well-known PIE WMP plug-in, not natively.

RealPlayer for Pocket PC
Status: Untested
Formats: RealAudio, RealVideo
Cost: Free
Special Capabilities: Streaming
Requires: 200MHz+ intel XScale or StrongARM
Real Networks

26 Oct 2004 - from rsljfp on PocketPCThoughts

- RP does not support windows media player (WMP) formats
- Several codecs are not available for PPC, so, some RP streams
can't play on a PPC
- It seems like RP PPC can't do NAT traversal (informed
hypothesis), so, to stream, the client PPC must be in the DMZ
behind the router, or, directly connected (say, from a verizon 1x
service)

It won't even play most streams even when directly connected, without any firewalls.

You could also include the following pic viewers, also with (very limited) video playing capabilities:

PQV 3.0 ( http://www.bitbanksoftware.com/PQV.html )

Casio: +
HP: -
Canon: +
Nikon : +
MP4: no support at all

Didn't work in the default direct screen access mode on the PL720. Tested in true QVGA (no forced VGA). Slow, appr. 8-10 fps video.

Fujitsu-Siemens Album ( comes with the Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket Loox 720 )

Casio: +
HP: -
Canon: +, with sound (the sound was much worse – stuttering, pauses now and then - than in BetaPlayer though!)
Nikon : -
MP4: +/+/-; didn't play the DIGIMAX video, only the sound


I've PM'ed you the URL of my forthcoming image viewer-test, from which I've copied the sections above.

GSmith
01-10-2005, 12:05 PM
Great comments! Thank you.

I think one of the confusions, generally, is that MP4 does not completely specify a file format and *encoding*. As far as I can tell, MP4 can contain DIVX, XVID, or QuickTime encoding. The problem is that when a manufacturer says "SUPPORTS MP4", that doesn't specify anything about which (of the three that I know) encodings that it can play. I would guess that "SUPPORTS MP4" means that the hardware/software supports at least one of the MP4 encodings. That's why on my chart I've split out the different MP4 encodings.

I would be very curious to know if the players you've tested are consistent in being able to play specific encodings.

AVI is similar (as far as I know) because it can contain different encodings as well. I *don't* split out different AVI encodings because I'm not sure what encodings it supports, or even if it is a finite number.

Regarding PictPocket: it looks like it is the only program available that advertises that it can play QuickTime on a Pocket PC. You don't give it high marks for other formats, but have you tested its QuickTime support? Have you found any other programs that play QuickTime on a Pocket PC?

Menneisyys
01-10-2005, 12:20 PM
Regarding PictPocket: it looks like it is the only program available that advertises that it can play QuickTime on a Pocket PC. You don't give it high marks for other formats, but have you tested its QuickTime support? Have you found any other programs that play QuickTime on a Pocket PC?

Both PQV 3.0 and BetaPlayer support QuickTime.

Menneisyys
01-10-2005, 12:27 PM
Great comments! Thank you.

I think one of the confusions, generally, is that MP4 does not completely specify a file format and *encoding*. As far as I can tell, MP4 can contain DIVX, XVID, or QuickTime encoding. The problem is that when a manufacturer says "SUPPORTS MP4", that doesn't specify anything about which (of the three that I know) encodings that it can play. I would guess that "SUPPORTS MP4" means that the hardware/software supports at least one of the MP4 encodings. That's why on my chart I've split out the different MP4 encodings.

I would be very curious to know if the players you've tested are consistent in being able to play specific encodings.

AVI is similar (as far as I know) because it can contain different encodings as well. I *don't* split out different AVI encodings because I'm not sure what encodings it supports, or even if it is a finite number.

As far as imageviewers & MP4 are concerned, I haven't tested their XviD/DivX compliance. I seriously doubt they have any (it'd be pretty useless in an image viewer meant for camera video watching because camcorders / digicams, in general, only use QuickTime and/or H.263 and not any kind of DivX/XviD). I only tested them with "official" H.263 files, even having the extension /mp4 (and not AVI).

picard
01-10-2005, 02:28 PM
As already mentioned, probably it would be a good idea to separate file format, video and audio codecs. The current mediachart is quite confusing.

Example:
file formats: avi, mpeg, mp4/3gp/mov, ogg, wav, asf/wmv/wma, mkv/mka (without the raw formats like mp3, mpc, aac, ac3, m1v, m4v...)
video codecs: iso mpeg4, msmpeg, h.263, mpeg1, mpeg2, mjpeg, wmv7/wmv8/wmv9, vp3/vp6
audio codesc: mp1/2, mp3, aac lc/he/ps, ac3, wma, amr, adpcm, vorbis, mpc, flex, speex, g726

picard
01-10-2005, 02:36 PM
because camcorders / digicams, in general, only use QuickTime and/or H.263 and not any kind of DivX/XviD
I think h.263 is not that common with digital cameras, at least this is why I add it so late to BetaPlayer. Most non mjpeg cameras are using iso mpeg4 or an older version of msmpeg4. But h.263 is common with camera (smart)phones.

GSmith
01-10-2005, 03:22 PM
As already mentioned, probably it would be a good idea to separate file format, video and audio codecs. The current mediachart is quite confusing.

Example:
file formats: avi, mpeg, mp4/3gp/mov, ogg, wav, asf/wmv/wma, mkv/mka (without the raw formats like mp3, mpc, aac, ac3, m1v, m4v...)
video codecs: iso mpeg4, msmpeg, h.263, mpeg1, mpeg2, mjpeg, wmv7/wmv8/wmv9, vp3/vp6
audio codesc: mp1/2, mp3, aac lc/he/ps, ac3, wma, amr, adpcm, vorbis, mpc, flex, speex, g726

Thank you for responding! This is great! With the chart, I'm trying to solve the following scenario: "I have a file .mp4, what media player should I use (or try to use) on the Pocket PC?"

I hadn't seen anything like this chart that attempts to answer this simple question. I created the chart from a lot of web surfing, but very little testing.

Is there a way to be more complete for the *average* user? In most cases, all you've got is a .mp4 file sitting in front of you, with no idea what player to use. How do you go from downloading the file to viewing the file? I'm fairly technical and *I* don't understand all details of formats vs. codecs.

This problem is not helped by software vendors that say "SUPPORTS MP4" without mentioning that, oh yeah, it doesn't support certain codecs that are used in MP4. And I know this is difficult (impossible?) to do because some formats are infinitely expandable. But at least they could list the supported codecs on their website.

Thanks, picard. I appreciate your comments. What do you think about the requests at http://www.feederreader.com/mediadevelopers.html for BetaPlayer?

picard
01-10-2005, 03:57 PM
This problem is not helped by software vendors that say "SUPPORTS MP4" without mentioning that, oh yeah, it doesn't support certain codecs that are used in MP4. And I know this is difficult (impossible?) to do because some formats are infinitely expandable. But at least they could list the supported codecs on their website.
In general every format has a statistically most commonly used codec combination. Example 3gp=h.263+amr mp4=mpeg4+aac avi=iso mpeg4 (divx,xvid)+mp3, ogm = iso mpeg4+vorbis, wmv = wmv+wma. Of course this not always the case, especially with digital cameras.

Thanks, picard. I appreciate your comments. What do you think about the requests at http://www.feederreader.com/mediadevelopers.html for BetaPlayer?
Sorry, I have little time for these. Btw I have no idea how you can register a mime type and what is the result of a mime type registration (IE will call the program?)

GSmith
01-10-2005, 04:46 PM
File associations determine what program is called when you click on a file in the File Explorer as well as (I think) Pocket Internet Explorer. I use file assocaitions in FeederReader to determine which media player to use based on the file's mime type or, failing that, the file extension.

picard
01-10-2005, 04:56 PM
Yes, I know about file associations (BetaPlayer supports it, just not sets it by default). I'am just not sure about mime type associations.

GSmith
01-10-2005, 05:55 PM
On the Pocket PC, mime types are "translated" to file extensions through the registry, so if you've got the file association, then you also get the mime type association.

For instance, on my Windows Mobile 2003 device, the mime type of audio/mpeg is "translated" to .mp3, which is then translated (via a file assocation) to an intermediary "MP3File". This intermediary is then associated using another registry entry with the application executable. The intermediary "MP3File" is common to mime associations and file assocations because the mime association uses the file assocation for determining the executable.

I hope this makes sense!

GSmith
01-20-2005, 04:47 PM
I have updated the pages listed in the first post of this thread.

With the chart, I'm trying to answer: "I have a file with YYY extension, what media player should I use (or try to use) on the Pocket PC?"

Additional comments are welcome!

SteelWheel
02-13-2005, 05:55 AM
This thread left me with the impression that I could just copy a .MOV file onto the SD card that I have in my PPC, and that BetaPlayer would then recognize that file and play it. I just attempted that--no workie. When I tried to bring up the list of files on the card from within the BetaPlayer app, the file did not even appear on the list. I found it listed as being on the SD card using File Explorer, and attempted to open it from there--I was then promptly directed that no program was associated with a file of this type, and to open such a program in order to open the requested file (sorta sending me back to square one).

Is there something else I need to do first in order to have this work the way I want? Change a file extension, or something like that? I'm still a little hazy on both handling video files and the PPC platform in general, so I'll try not to ask too many stupid questions. Just sounded like this was pretty much of a plug and play thing....and I'm sure once I figure out the procedure (or some kind person here takes pity on me and clues me in), it will in fact be a plug and play thing.

Thanks for help. This watching video on a handheld device is cool. Just my luck that I have several .MOV files around which I'd like to play in that format. I'm sure "PictPocket" would handle this all for me behind the scenes, but if I'm correct in my understanding of the issues involved here, laying out $40 for their software is really unnecessary in this case.

GSmith
02-13-2005, 07:46 AM
I think by default BetaPlayer does not create any file associations.

Go to BetaPlayer Options | Settings... then to Select Page | File Associations.

As a test, select all items and hit ok in the upper right corner.

Then take a look at the file and see if the Beta icon is displayed.

If this does not work, download both plugins and again go to the File Associations page. Check the file by clicking on it in File Explorer.

I had one case where after selecting the items and going back to File Explorer, I did not see the Beta icon display. I don't recall if the file played immediately or if it required a soft reset. Probably not, but it might be worth a try, in particular after you install the two plugins.

Report back here if it works (or if it doesn't).

picard
02-13-2005, 07:48 AM
I just attempted that--no workie. When I tried to bring up the list of files on the card from within the BetaPlayer app, the file did not even appear on the list.
Are you using the latest 0.5 version? Or did you change the 'filter' option in open dialog? .mov files should be listed by default.

SteelWheel
02-13-2005, 10:33 AM
With respect to GSmith's suggestions: I selected all items in the file associations area--still no display of the Beta icon for the desired file.

I was a little confused by your suggestion of "downloading both plug-ins" again. By both plug-ins, were you referring to the BetaPlayer app and the desired file? Or is there another file/component I need to download along with BetaPlayer app for access to all features?

However, this may all be something of a moot point, since Picard asked what may be the more relevant question: No, I am not using the latest 0.5 version, I'm on 0.4--there doesn't seem to be any reference to .mov files there. Was .mov support added just recently? Should I upgrade? If so, am I better off just removing 0.4 from my device and then downloading/installing 0.5 fresh? I do recall seeing a user complaint someplace about some sort of conflict between 0.5 and his device (and I have the same one)--Audiovox XV6600. Has this been verified, or should I just cross my fingers and try installing 0.5 also and see how I do?

Thanks so much for the fast responses.

Menneisyys
04-18-2005, 03:25 PM
I've just tested some PPC multimedia apps for G.711 uLaw compatibility. Details at http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15179

beq
04-22-2005, 09:34 AM
Sorry to sidetrack, just curious, is the RealPlayer for Pocket PC not recommended to be used/installed at all? What I mean is, does it fail to play most Real audio/video anyways as to make it useless and not worth the space?

I wish Real would devote more resources to their PPC player (of course, I also wish Apple would even make a PPC player for QT)...

Perk
05-03-2005, 11:21 PM
Wow,

This is an exciting thread. I think your chart is an awesome endeavor and its great how you made the research a forum.

I work for a custom audio/video installation company and a lot of our stuff is going by way of network digital media servers. As in hard drive based components are replacing CD and DVD changers . So, file types and the like have become one of our focuses.

The CD is still the reference music source . It is an uncompromised digital recording and is not compressed. A WAV file is the same size as the original CD file.

MP3 is an open codec. It was developed by Motion Pictures Experts Group and is available free of charge. This is known as an "Open Codec". Since it’s free, it will show up on more playback devices.
MP3 is by far the most widely used format of all and therefore is a safe ripping (recording) format if you're going to compress your files.

MOV is an Apple Codec and I know of no way to play apple on a Microsoft based portable device. I think this is intentional since you have to buy every version of QuickTime and they don't make a PPC version.

MPEG-4 is a standard being developed for licensing through Dolby Labs. The most popular codec in the MPEG-4 standard is AAC, Advanced Audio Compression. AAC is the best sounding lossy codec out there. As in, it reduces the file size more while compromising the sound quality the least. The Apple iPOD is the biggest proponent of this format. Since they sell about 4 iPODS per minute world wide, that means that AAC WILL some day dethrone MP3 as the leading codec.

WMA comes in three flavors, WMA, WMA Variable and WMA Lossless. Right now, WMA and AAC are fighting for market dominance. Both formats work but AAC really sounds better at the same compression rate. Who will win depends on alliances. www.playsforsure.com is the Windows camp. It lists all the websites and hardware that are WMA and WMV compatible. AAC's primary consumer source is the apple music store. Understand that when you buy music on-line, it is compressed. As in not reference quality. Further, these files are protected by DRM.

DRM is a way of controlling who can play music you bought and downloaded off the internet. If you buy music from Apple's iTUNES store, you can only play it back on up to five devices that you personally own. Those devices are strictly limited to PCs that have you as the registered owner of iTUNES installed, and the iPOD. No other devices are able to play this back, period. Since Microsoft is not a hardware manufacturer, they have alliances with RIO, Creative and several others and can therefore be played on devices from multiple manufacturers. However, both camps are compatible with MP3. You can rip music and even transfer it in MP3.

kbps All Codecs have compression settings. This setting determines the kilobits per second that make up the file. The smaller the number, the smaller the file is. The smaller the file, the lower the sound quality will be. So, the real balancing act for the Pocket PC is storage space or variety versus sound quality. A 64kbps file will sound pretty much like AM radio. As you step up to a larger number like 160kbps, more and more sound quality is apparent and the differences between Codecs becomes more apparent. The highest setting usually is 320kbps.

Experiment: Open Windows Media Player on your desktop. Click on “Tools”, the Options, then Rip Music tab. Disable “Copy Protect Music. Now set your “Rip settings Format to mp3. Now slide the “Audio Quality slider and move it al the way to the left. It should read “128kbps”. Clik on OK and close any popup setting windows.

Now grab a really good sounding CD and pick a song to rip. Rip it then copy it to a new folder on your desktop. Now, rip the same song as a 256kbps mp3 and then again as a 320kbps mp3. Place each one of them in their own folder and copy all three folders onto your storage card. For best results, do this with file explorer. Now try listening to the first 15 seconds of each recording, the difference should be apparent. Once you’ve done this, you’ll get a feel for what the lowest acceptable compression rate is for you.
NOTE: If you only have Windows Media Player on your portable, do the conversion in WMA and use Media player to perform the sync or transfer to your portable.

Back door, The CD is old technology. There is no copy protection on it. This means that you can burn a CD with your DRM AAC and WMA files and then rip the CD back onto your PC's hard drive. Before you do this, go through and uncheck the "Protect Music" option. Obviously, you are doing this with honorable intentions in mind.

Easiest solution for portable playback: Download all your favorite media players, go through the settings on every one of them, enabling playback of every single file type each one offers, save your favorite one for last. The end result will be that if a file can be played, Windows will tell the right program to open it. By setting your favorite soft player last, it will register as the best program to open whatever file types it can play back.

http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1561566,00.asp

http://www.vialicensing.com/products/mpeg4aac/standard.html


OMG!

I can't believe how long my post is. I hope it helps, but sorry for the length.



Mike

Menneisyys
05-04-2005, 08:32 AM
Sorry to sidetrack, just curious, is the RealPlayer for Pocket PC not recommended to be used/installed at all? What I mean is, does it fail to play most Real audio/video anyways as to make it useless and not worth the space?

I wish Real would devote more resources to their PPC player (of course, I also wish Apple would even make a PPC player for QT)...

Unfortunately, the PPC realOne player is pretty restricted (compared to its desktop versions) when it comes to playing streamed stuff.

See http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12215 on this.

I also recommend http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13536, http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?threadid=96906 and http://pocketpcmag.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15089 .

Please note that a lot of pages (for example, http://www.pocketpcfreewares.com/en/index.php?soft=825
) refer to the 1.0 version of their player (it's how it's called at http://www.real.com/realmobile/download.html?thanks=true&device=Pocket%2520PC%2520Devices ) as version v2.0.0.28. So does the app internally. There are no differences, however, between the two versions.

beq
05-06-2005, 02:34 AM
What's interesting is that I thought Real's Rhapsody To Go music subscription service (just like Napster To Go) relies exclusively on Windows Media 10's Janus DRM for portable device support.

But I'm reminded again about Palm's upcoming LifeDrive device with built-in 4GB HDD, which is supposed to sync directly to Rhapsody also. I wonder if that means Palm's LifeDrive uses WM10?
http://news.com.com/PalmOne+hard+drive-based+handheld+on+horizon/2100-1041_3-5697038.html


P.S. I've recently been trying to enjoy the same To Go experience with our Pocket PCs (i-mate PDA2k and JAM):
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39502&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

Biggest capacity I can get though is only 2GB SD cards...

Menneisyys
05-06-2005, 12:43 PM
I wonder if that means Palm's LifeDrive uses WM10?

Well, why not? Nokia (aka Symbian) has also decided to license / support (streaming) WM.