PalmOne Will Make A Windows Mobile Based Treo!

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-5435211.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-5435211.html</a><br /><br /><i>"Shares of PalmSource, the handheld operating system developer, dipped Monday on an investment bank's report that said key licensee PalmOne will use Microsoft's OS in its Treo line of devices. The research note from Needham &amp; Co. said PalmOne "tacitly admitted" it was working to make Microsoft's handheld OS available on the popular Treo line of phones. The devices currently use PalmSource's Palm OS, and PalmOne is PalmSource's biggest customer. The two companies recently split from each other, allowing them to be more flexible."</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20041102-mstreo.gif" /><br /><br />Of course, this won't come as any surprise to many of our readers. Back in <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25276">March, we told you</a> about a comment from Tom Bradley, PalmOne CEO, saying that while at the time, no Microsoft based products had been announced, nothing would preclude them from working on and releasing one. Given the success of Windows Mobile and its increasing marketshare world wide, PalmOne cannot afford <i>not</i> to at least consider it and see how their popular Treo would work with the OS. <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20040304-treopocketpc.wma">The audio is still available</a>. <i>(118kb)</i><br /><br />PalmSource, the company that makes the PalmOS now, would suffer a huge blow of their number one OEM partner began using PalmSource's number one adversary. Of course, Microsoft, PalmOne and PalmSource are very tight-lipped about this not offering denials but dismissing it as "rumors and speculation." Here is another rumor. <i>"It is rumored that Ed Hansberry is excited about giving the forthcoming Windows Mobile based Treo a test drive next summer."</i> :lol:

[MultiMatt]

The thing I find interesting is why we haven't seen any Windows Mobile OEM just copy the Treo form-factor?
While I've not used one, it certainly appears that the Treo is the most popular and desired PDA Phone for "the masses" (if not that, then the Blackberry). I travel a LOT, and it seems everywhere I look - the airport, on a plane, etc - people are using one of those two devices. Of course, my eyes can detect a PPC user from 100 yards away too, though their numbers are smaller amongst "the average joes"...

I just find it hard to believe that we've not already seen a device like the Treo already released by the Windows Mobile side of the fence.
If this rumor ends up becoming a reality, then PalmOne could have one HOT device on their hands.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

This has to be the most exciting WM news in a loooooooooong time. Guess I'll be holding onto my Ipaq 2215 just a hair longer....

[R K]

The thing I find interesting is why we haven't seen any Windows Mobile OEM just copy the Treo form-factor?

Would the <a href=http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/benq-p50-hottt-023000.php>BenQ P50</a> count?

By the way, does anyone know whether Windows Mobile supports 320x320 resolution? I know that WM2003SE supports square screens but I can't remember whether it was limited to 240x240.

[silver99]

PalmOne using a Microsoft OS? That's crazy (but a good crazy). Never thought I'd see the day. What's next - is Apple going to start loading Windows XP onto their hardware?

[Fishie]

The thing I find interesting is why we haven't seen any Windows Mobile OEM just copy the Treo form-factor?
While I've not used one, it certainly appears that the Treo is the most popular and desired PDA Phone for "the masses" (if not that, then the Blackberry). I travel a LOT, and it seems everywhere I look - the airport, on a plane, etc - people are using one of those two devices. Of course, my eyes can detect a PPC user from 100 yards away too, though their numbers are smaller amongst "the average joes"...

I just find it hard to believe that we've not already seen a device like the Treo already released by the Windows Mobile side of the fence.
If this rumor ends up becoming a reality, then PalmOne could have one HOT device on their hands.

BenQ P50

[Fishie]

The thing I find interesting is why we haven't seen any Windows Mobile OEM just copy the Treo form-factor?

Would the <a href=http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/benq-p50-hottt-023000.php>BenQ P50</a> count?

By the way, does anyone know whether Windows Mobile supports 320x320 resolution? I know that WM2003SE supports square screens but I can't remember whether it was limited to 240x240.

They only showed 240by240 but I do think it does support 320by320 as well.
Not entirely sure though.

[Birdman]

It would probably "count" if it ever became available to be purchased by the masses. I can't walk into any cell phone or electronics retailer here in Toronto without being assaulted by ads for the "all new" Treo 600! (We're a little behind the tech curve here in Canada). Probably the one and only thing holding me back from the Treo is the OS. If the same form factor and shape was running a MS OS, I (and likely many others) would be all over it.

[marlof]

Gotta admit that I've used a Treo extensively in the past half year, because of its form factor. I even learned to overcome my greatest reserves because of the OS. I still used a PPC from time to time next to the Treo (simply because of the better screen and the multitasking OS) though. Right now I have a new toy (T-Mobile SDA Smartphone), but still I'd be leaping with joy when a WM based Treo would be released. And of course, also by the fact that I'd witness Ed Hansberry with a PalmOne logo on one of his devices. :D

[CTSLICK]

OK, now you have my attention...especially since Sprint already has the Treo in its line up. Lets hope they pick up the WM version when/if available. We have a lot of execs using the Treo right now and nearly all are very pleased, even the techno-phobes. The only one that isn't wants a device running WM!

[Birdman]

I have even been seriously thinking about moving to the Treo 650, which seems to have some nice improvements over the 600. Problems of course, are the Palm OS and lack of integrated Wi-Fi.
There is a good thread (I think on HowardForums) comaring the Treo to the PDA2k. In that comparison, the reviewer makes a strong case for the PDA2K over the Treo. It's a pretty good read. I will try and find the thread.

[Jason Lee]

If the hardware specs aren't too bad I'd for sure buy one. The Treo is one of those "soo cool!" devices that I will never buy simply because of the os. If I could get a Treo with WM2003SE and some decent specs... Whoah...
8O

[wbuch]

The thing I find interesting is why we haven't seen any Windows Mobile OEM just copy the Treo form-factor?

Would the <a href=http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/benq-p50-hottt-023000.php>BenQ P50</a> count?

By the way, does anyone know whether Windows Mobile supports 320x320 resolution? I know that WM2003SE supports square screens but I can't remember whether it was limited to 240x240.

They only showed 240by240 but I do think it does support 320by320 as well.
Not entirely sure though.

I think it's 240x240 and 480x480.

[possmann]

interesting - I do like the TREO form factor and had often thought of how neat it would be to see that running a PPCPE OS... cool

[mememe]

http://news.com.com/2100-1045_3-5435211.html

"Shares of PalmSource, the handheld operating system developer, dipped Monday on an investment bank's report that said key licensee PalmOne will use Microsoft's OS in its Treo line of devices. The research note from... :lol:

Money.. it all comes down to money.. Sure there's MS Billion$ around there somewhere.. Would be a sad day..

[TMann]

From a business point of view, what would PalmOne gain by putting WM on the Treo? I was under the impression that they are already selling the Treo's as fast as they could make them.

And wouldn't putting WM on the Treo serve to undercut the rest of PalmOne's PDA line, ie. the Tungstens and the Zires? The only benefit that the current Palm PDA line has is that it runs the Palm OS, and hence appeals to all of those who favor that OS. Maybe they're considering putting WM on the new Tungsten T5, so that all of those PPC users would be able to complain about it too! :)

Seriously, though, I think that these Windows Mobile OS on a PalmOne device are about as serious as all of the "Apple-is-considering-making-the-Macintosh-OS-compatible-with-Intel-processor" stories. It doesn't make sense to me from a business point of view. I could be wrong, though.

TMann

[Dr. Grabow]

If PalmOne stops using the Palm OS, then Microsoft no longer has any viable competition, and less incentive to continue to improve the WM OS. Competition benefits all consumers! This will be a sad happening for Palm in the short run, and for WM in the longer run ...

[marlof]

If PalmOne stops using the Palm OS, then Microsoft no longer has any viable competition, and less incentive to continue to improve the WM OS. Competition benefits all consumers! This will be a sad happening for Palm in the short run, and for WM in the longer run ...

We're just talking about the Treo (smartphone) range, not the Tungsten range. When it comes to smartphones, I wouldn't exactly rule out Nokia and the other Symbian OEMs. :)

[Birdman]

The impression that I got from the press release was not that the Treo will stop using the Palm OS, but rather, that similar to having a CDMA and GSM model, they will also introduce a Tero running on the MS OS.

[surur]

One interesting point to add is the recent licensing of Exchange Server interoperability to P1 for use with the Treo. Its possible these 2 issues got mixed up.

Alternatively Palm sees blackberry, not Microsoft, as their biggest competitor and decided they can best compete by hitching their wagon to the Microsoft star, and possibly become the best Exchange connected enterprise pocketpc device ever? It may have been the price Microsoft charged for access.

Just a theory...

Surur

BTW: This story has not broken yet at palminfocenter. I wonder if they will even mention it....

[gorkon280]

We have a WINNA! YEAH! I would LOVE a Treo with WM on it. It just might be my next cell phone (or the version after that since I just signed a new contract). Pa1mone....just bring out a CDMA version...oh ok you can bring out a GSM one too! :D

[Darius Wey]

Now for a dialectical debate: is this classified as a Palm or Pocket PC? 8)

[whydidnt]

And wouldn't putting WM on the Treo serve to undercut the rest of PalmOne's PDA line, ie. the Tungstens and the Zires? The only benefit that the current Palm PDA line has is that it runs the Palm OS, and hence appeals to all of those who favor that OS. Maybe they're considering putting WM on the new Tungsten T5, so that all of those PPC users would be able to complain about it too! :)

This is certainly true, however, if PalmOne has looked at the next generation of OS being developed by PalmSource and found it lacking, then all bets are off. PalmOne's first priority is to it's stock holders, not the OS that they were founded upon. If they look at OS6 and decide that it is far inferior to WM at this point, they might decide that it's better to go to the stronger OS while they still can.

However, this is just rumor right now. It's also possible they plan on offering hardware that is OS-independent, and let us consumers chose. Once again, that could be a very good business model for them, depending on how they see these platforms evolving.

[Jonathon Watkins]

......I'd be leaping with joy when a WM based Treo would be released. And of course, also by the fact that I'd witness Ed Hansberry with a PalmOne logo on one of his devices. :D

8O It's a sign of the Apocalypse! 8O

:rotfl:

Strange days indeed. :wink:

[dstrauss]

It would be an interesting development if it occurs, but I think the analyst misunderstood the recent licensing agreement between PalmOne and Microsoft to use Microsoft Exchange Server handheld sync software on the new Treo 650 so you can synchronize calendar and email with MS Exchange.

[Jason Dunn]

Money.. it all comes down to money.. Sure there's MS Billion$ around there somewhere.. Would be a sad day..

FUD. What makes you discount the idea that this happened because PalmOne, who's just a hardware company now, saw the benefits in having their hardware running on BOTH of the top mobile operating systems?

[Jason Dunn]

From a business point of view, what would PalmOne gain by putting WM on the Treo? I was under the impression that they are already selling the Treo's as fast as they could make them.

Simple: they'd sell even more. I've never seen a business that isn't hungry for more profit and more sales.

And wouldn't putting WM on the Treo serve to undercut the rest of PalmOne's PDA line, ie. the Tungstens and the Zires?

No. PalmOne is a hardware company and now that they're completely divorced from PalmSource, they've realized that they've got to be competative with Dell, HP, and the other Windows Mobile OEMs.

I for one am looking forward to this a great deal - I really like the Treo form-factor.

[mangochutneyman]

LOL! Who would have thought we'ld see the day that a bunch of MS MVP's here would be pleading for PalmOne to release a WM device! :wink:

Anyway, I agree with others here who stated that this is just another example of a so called analyst who doesn't know what he's talking about...

[thunderck]

Way to stay strong Jason!! :D With Palm OS devices slipping in sales to HP why would PalmOne not go this route?? Indeed, it is all about the bengies.... and why not, after all it is a business. :mrgreen:

[jeisner]

I have even been seriously thinking about moving to the Treo 650, which seems to have some nice improvements over the 600. Problems of course, are the Palm OS and lack of integrated Wi-Fi.
There is a good thread (I think on HowardForums) comaring the Treo to the PDA2k. In that comparison, the reviewer makes a strong case for the PDA2K over the Treo. It's a pretty good read. I will try and find the thread.

Be careful regarding wifi, if you want it, the treo 650 may never support it due to a crippled sd card slot, they promised future wifi card support for the Treo 600 (as they are doing for the 650) and it never happened (why I switched to XDA II). Actually they have backflipped twice regarding whether the 650 may in the future support the palm wifi card!!! Don't count on Palm delivering on future support promises.....

[IpaqMan2]

I think this is excellent news and hope to see this actually happen. Still if palmOne does go this route I don't think it would speak anything against PalmSource's being any less useful than their current group of people already using their product. If anything it just shows that palmOne see's an opportunity in the market, a gap that hasn't really been addressed to the fullest and aims to provide and profit from it. The Treo does have a favorable formfactor that appears to be lacking in the Windows Mobile platform. It would be better to be first to the market even if it meant you were dancing with your competitors and profit greatly from it than to lose the opportunity and possible tens of millions. The Treo has made a name for itself and could survive on it's own seperate from palmOne if it had too. Why not make the name Treo synonymous with every smart phone, have it be Windows Mobile OS or Palm OS.

Just my thoughts.

[Ed Hansberry]

Be careful regarding wifi, if you want it, the treo 650 may never support it due to a crippled sd card slot, they promised future wifi card support for the Treo 600 (as they are doing for the 650) and it never happened (why I switched to XDA II). Actually they have backflipped twice regarding whether the 650 may in the future support the palm wifi card!!! Don't count on Palm delivering on future support promises.....
That is because no one has had great success implementing SD WIFI cards in any PalmOS product. I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

[Damion Chaplin]

This is rather exciting. I've been avoiding the Treo because of it's operating system. If it had WM, I'd already have one.

I wonder if this might start a trend of hardware manufacturers offering their hardware with multiple choices of operating systems?

I recently recommended a Tungsten E to a friend who wanted to buy his first PDA. He's not very computer literate, so I couldn't in good concience recommend he buy a PPC - they really are more for power users. Imagine if I could have recommended he buy an iPAQ 4155 with a Palm OS? (please! stop pelting me with rotten tomatoes!)

If putting WM on a Treo will make me buy it, maybe it would work the other way around? Dell in particular would make bank if they offered both Palm OS and PPC on their PDAs (or at least offer one of each).

[maximus]

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20041102_125541.html

PalmOne did not comment on Needham's report but said it may have been a "misunderstanding" and "speculation". As an ongoing strategy, the company always would evaluate other platforms from time to time, a spokesperson said. At this time the company however would not see a need to extend its product line.

:mrgreen:

[jasondearyou]

this just sucks, it seems as if everyone is just falling in line with microsoft, no pun intended.

[twalk]

There is a serious image problem here for P1 if they go down this route. PalmOS users would think that P1 is abandoning PalmOS. WM users would love a WM treo in the short term, but long term would see P1 as just another insignificant company making PPCs, and abandon them for HP &amp; Dell when they bring out their knockoffs.

Instead of increasing their marketshare, they likely would be committing suicide. (Then again, with as stupid as P1's marketing people are, you can't rule it out...)

Besides, they can't meet demand for treos right now, so how would they free up the resources for production of a WM treo?

Just to give you the idea, think about what you would think of HPs long term commitment to PPC if they brought out a new line of Palm PDAs?

The only reason for them to do this is either stupidity, or someone (HP or Dell) is going to buy them.

[Ed Hansberry]

Besides, they can't meet demand for treos right now, so how would they free up the resources for production of a WM treo
The device design and implementation is different than production. Isn't this stuff all farmed out for production in Asia or Hungary for Palm? That leaves their US device design team free to do this kind of thing.

Given PalmOne is a one trick pony (PDAs) I think they have to hope for a buyout. Or start acquiring themselves to get into more electronics. When you basically invent the market, you can do one thing and do it well. Nearly 10 years later, when every OEM is eating your lunch, obliterating your days-gone-by 85%+ marketshare, you have to diversify, get purchased, or get lost.

[sub_tex]

Is everyone here that up on the MS Smartpone?

I've only seen pics and read reviews of the MS Smartphones, but personally I would much rather have a PPC Phone Edition over an MS Smartphone. Like that MX crazy clamshell phone. Looked like a much more interesting PDA/phone than the very phone-centric MS Smartphone.

A Treo running PPC PE would be much more interesting than one with just the smartphone OS on it.

[sub_tex]

Well, P1 responded and said nee!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7260

though they did again say how they're open to using other OSs blah blah blah. . .

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, P1 responded and said nee!
Where? I just saw the same old non-denials we heard after the March 04 conference call.

[Fishie]

Be careful regarding wifi, if you want it, the treo 650 may never support it due to a crippled sd card slot, they promised future wifi card support for the Treo 600 (as they are doing for the 650) and it never happened (why I switched to XDA II). Actually they have backflipped twice regarding whether the 650 may in the future support the palm wifi card!!! Don't count on Palm delivering on future support promises.....
That is because no one has had great success implementing SD WIFI cards in any PalmOS product. I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

Ed Ed Ed, when will you ever learn?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7053
http://www.sandisk.com/retail/c-wifi-sd.asp

[Ed Hansberry]

That is because no one has had great success implementing SD WIFI cards in any PalmOS product. I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

Ed Ed Ed, when will you ever learn?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7053"The card enables the Tungsten T3 and Zire 72 handheld to connect to 802.11b/g WiFi networks though the secure digital expansion slot"http://www.sandisk.com/retail/c-wifi-sd.asp"The card supports Pocket PC 2002, Pocket PC 2003, Pocket PC 2003 Mobile Edition and Palm Zire 71 devices that have an SDIO enabled slot."

Wow! That's impressive Fishie. So, you consider it a "great success" in implementing SD WiFi cards in PalmOS devices when Palm makes one card taht works for the T3 and Zire 72 and Sandisk makes another that works with the Zire 71? Yet Sandisk enabled that same card to work in every Pocket PC 2002 and up with an SDIO port? You think that might not be considered a great success on the PalmOS front? Is there something different about the SDIO slot in a T3 than a Zire 71 - or is it that the implemention has gotten so messed up in a PalmOS device that each one almost requires their own driver?

Let's go to the tape: "So why is the card only available for the T3 and Zire 72, and not other models with SD slots? The official answer from palmOne is: Following market and development-cost analysis, palmOne wanted to develop a Wi-Fi card that will be applicable to its Zire 72 and Tungsten T3 handhelds. These solutions require very tight integration between hardware, firmware and custom software, as well as access to propriety technologies for the level of tight integration necessary to give the customer an excellent experience. In other words it sounds like the differences between other models SD slots and other factors such as power draw and battery capacity, made is cost prohibitive to develop it for other handhelds."

:rotfl: That is so sad. "Very tight integration between the hardware, firmware and custom software." :rotfl:

I don't call that a great success.

[bnycastro]

wouldn't a MS PPC PE powered Treo650 have no problems with SDIO cards?
I mean MS PPC PE OS can accept most SDIO cards right? Isn't it the palm drivers that are a mess or is it really the SD slot (hardware) to blame if the Treo650 can't accept WiFi SDIO?

Would loading MS PPC PE OS on a Treo 650 make the device WiFi SD friendly???

[sub_tex]

Would loading MS PPC PE OS on a Treo 650 make the device WiFi SD friendly???

Seems logical. I would hope and pray that that's the case. :D

[Fishie]

That is because no one has had great success implementing SD WIFI cards in any PalmOS product. I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

Ed Ed Ed, when will you ever learn?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7053"The card enables the Tungsten T3 and Zire 72 handheld to connect to 802.11b/g WiFi networks though the secure digital expansion slot"http://www.sandisk.com/retail/c-wifi-sd.asp"The card supports Pocket PC 2002, Pocket PC 2003, Pocket PC 2003 Mobile Edition and Palm Zire 71 devices that have an SDIO enabled slot."

Wow! That's impressive Fishie. So, you consider it a "great success" in implementing SD WiFi cards in PalmOS devices when Palm makes one card taht works for the T3 and Zire 72 and Sandisk makes another that works with the Zire 71? Yet Sandisk enabled that same card to work in every Pocket PC 2002 and up with an SDIO port? You think that might not be considered a great success on the PalmOS front? Is there something different about the SDIO slot in a T3 than a Zire 71 - or is it that the implemention has gotten so messed up in a PalmOS device that each one almost requires their own driver?

Let's go to the tape: "So why is the card only available for the T3 and Zire 72, and not other models with SD slots? The official answer from palmOne is: Following market and development-cost analysis, palmOne wanted to develop a Wi-Fi card that will be applicable to its Zire 72 and Tungsten T3 handhelds. These solutions require very tight integration between hardware, firmware and custom software, as well as access to propriety technologies for the level of tight integration necessary to give the customer an excellent experience. In other words it sounds like the differences between other models SD slots and other factors such as power draw and battery capacity, made is cost prohibitive to develop it for other handhelds."

:rotfl: That is so sad. "Very tight integration between the hardware, firmware and custom software." :rotfl:

I don't call that a great success.

Well at the very least it makes a mockery of your claim that it must be something inside PalmOS

[Jason Dunn]

Well at the very least it makes a mockery of your claim that it must be something inside PalmOS

&lt;tweeeeeeeeeeeet!> TEN YARD PENALTY FOR ABUSE OF QUOTES! :lol:

(please, don't quote a message double-nested message just to add one line)

[Fishie]

Well at the very least it makes a mockery of your claim that it must be something inside PalmOS

&lt;tweeeeeeeeeeeet!> TEN YARD PENALTY FOR ABUSE OF QUOTES! :lol:

(please, don't quote a message double-nested message just to add one line)

What?

:twisted:

[Ed Hansberry]

That is because no one has had great success implementing SD WIFI cards in any PalmOS product. I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.
More PalmOS wifi goodness. http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmaddicts/2004/11/user_followup_p.html

[bnycastro]

Just visitted the palmOne website to take a look at the Treo650, however I was not able to spot the WiFi SDIO accessory for it. There is a WiFi SDIO card but it is only compatible for one T model (3 I think) and a Zire model (72 I think)... IMO palmOne should release the Treo650 that is compatible with this card, WiFi is really popular and I think most handhelds should have them... of course the Treo 650 is a mobile also and the guys at palmOne may think that WiFi is not needed, however wouldn't it be nice to be able to connect to WiFi when you want/need? atleast give the buyers the option :D

O yeah I think the 650 will have the same camera as the 600; I think some people thought it would have a 1.3MP camera, it won't.

Put WinMobile 2003 Phone Ed SE on it and assure that an WiFi or WiFi+Mem SDIO card would work on it then you've got a very interested customer right here!!!

[Janak Parekh]

Is everyone here that up on the MS Smartpone?
I wasn't until I tried it. I just got an i600 to complement my e805 Pocket PC (my i700 was wearing out with age) and I have to commend MS -- they've done some very good work on making a non-touch-screen device extremely sophisticated yet easy to use. :-)

A Treo running PPC PE would be much more interesting than one with just the smartphone OS on it.
Well, this is all huge speculation... but the one nice thing of not having a touchscreen is that you can engineer the device with a much tougher screen surface. That's why people slip their cell phones and Smartphones into their pockets, but typically use cases with Palm or Pocket PC Phones. About the only thing my i600 is missing, incidentally, is a way to input lots of text -- and a Treo-like keyboard would solve that.

Anyway -- there's lots of interesting possibilities, for sure. It's going to be interesting to watch what happens. ;)

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

:rotfl: That is so sad. "Very tight integration between the hardware, firmware and custom software." :rotfl:

I don't call that a great success.

Well at the very least it makes a mockery of your claim that it must be something inside PalmOS
According to http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_OS_Cobalt_6_1_Debuts?site=Palm it is an OS issue.

"Cobalt 6.1 includes built-in support for Bluetooth 1.2 and Wi-Fi (802.11b) wireless networking. SDIO (Secure Digital Input/Output) is now a part of the operating system. SDIO allows peripherals such as cameras and wireless networking cards to be plugged into the SD memory card slot. "

So, OS 6 and earlier don't natively support SDIO or WiFi/Bluetooth so all SDIO cards had funky custom drivers that had to integrate with the BIOS, firmware, hardware and OS, much like those hokey USB drivers that were released for NT 4 boxes. No wonder few released SDIO accessories for PalmOS devices. You'd be facing a different driver/software/firmware combo with each device you supported.

[bnycastro]

Will the Treo 650 run this cobalt 6.1? If it ain't then I guess Treo users will have to wait for either an OS update or Treo 700 or TreoPPC hehehehe :mrgreen: to get WiFi on their Treo.

[Janak Parekh]

Will the Treo 650 run this cobalt 6.1?
Definitely not. As their website states, it's running 5.4 (Garnet? Can't keep track of the names. :P)

If it ain't then I guess Treo users will have to wait for either an OS update or Treo 700 or TreoPPC hehehehe :mrgreen: to get WiFi on their Treo.
The sad part is the hardware looks excellently designed -- this time it feels like it's truly being held down by the platform.

--janak

[Fishie]

:rotfl: That is so sad. "Very tight integration between the hardware, firmware and custom software." :rotfl:

I don't call that a great success.

Well at the very least it makes a mockery of your claim that it must be something inside PalmOS
According to http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_OS_Cobalt_6_1_Debuts?site=Palm it is an OS issue.

"Cobalt 6.1 includes built-in support for Bluetooth 1.2 and Wi-Fi (802.11b) wireless networking. SDIO (Secure Digital Input/Output) is now a part of the operating system. SDIO allows peripherals such as cameras and wireless networking cards to be plugged into the SD memory card slot. "

So, OS 6 and earlier don't natively support SDIO or WiFi/Bluetooth so all SDIO cards had funky custom drivers that had to integrate with the BIOS, firmware, hardware and OS, much like those hokey USB drivers that were released for NT 4 boxes. No wonder few released SDIO accessories for PalmOS devices. You'd be facing a different driver/software/firmware combo with each device you supported.

Oh come on, now you are REALLY reaching.

By the same token Windows 98 cant do USB, Windows Mobile doesnt support WiFi nor bleutooth etcetera etcetera.

The fact that its not part of the core operating system means absolutely nothing, if it is it just makes things easier for others to release hardware that is compatible out of the box witouth need for drivers.

[Janak Parekh]

By the same token Windows 98 cant do USB, Windows Mobile doesnt support WiFi nor bleutooth etcetera etcetera.
Not quite. Windows 98 was the first MS OS to include USB support. Windows 95 OEM Service Release 2 had some semi-proprietary extensions, and there were tons of compatibility issues. As for Windows Mobile, it doesn't need to support WiFi, although it's nice to have a standardized UI -- as long as it supports a consistent driver model so that it's easy to write one WiFi driver that works on all devices. Obviously that is not the case with PalmOS.

The fact that its not part of the core operating system means absolutely nothing, if it is it just makes things easier for others to release hardware that is compatible out of the box witouth need for drivers.
Certain minimal services need to be in the OS to ensure interoperability. Microsoft has been quite good about it.

--janak

[Fishie]

Yes Win Mobile has far better integration.
Doesnt mean that thre is some inherit flaw in the PalmOS that prohibits good implementation of WiFi though.

The Haigawara WiFi memory Stick, a Sandisk wifi SD card with limited compatibility, the TungstenC, several Clie´s and PalmOne´s own limited compatibility WiFi card as well as WiFi jackets(and WiFi and bleutooth Springboards for old Handsprings even) all beg to differ that its some flaw in the OS.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yes Win Mobile has far better integration.
Doesnt mean that thre is some inherit flaw in the PalmOS that prohibits good implementation of WiFi though.
No one said it did did they Fishie? Your argument is called a straw man. DOS doesn't have good WiFi support either. That isn't an inherent flaw in the OS, that is just the way it is. It is very difficult to write WiFi drivers for the PalmOS, meaning you just about have to write a different driver for each and every PalmOS device, out there instead of writing a common driver. That is why there isn't a WiFi card for all SDIO devices - the OEMs don't think it is worth the effort - not even pa1mOne.

Where is that stupid picture Palm did back in 2001/2002 that showed about 6 SDIO cards from cameras, bluetooth to Wifi that was just a bunch of hoax mock ups. Very few saw the light of day. :roll:

[Fishie]

I will quote YOU:I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

The hardware wasnt unified with everyone doing wht they wanted to do unlike PPC where the specs all machines had to adhere to were set in stone by MS.
How is that not an hardware isseu?

I could give similar examples stating PPC´s that only had an SD slot but lacked SDIO and then blame the PPC OS for the fact you couldnt get WiFi on em.
It would be just as stupid ads what you have been arguing here all along.
So I wont.

[Ed Hansberry]

I will quote YOU:I think it is more an OS issue than hardware.

The hardware wasnt unified with everyone doing wht they wanted to do unlike PPC where the specs all machines had to adhere to were set in stone by MS.
How is that not an hardware isseu?
Because part of the job of the OS is to provide a suitable abstraction layer for the hardware so the developer doesn't have to worry about it. Windows NT/2000/XP/2003 does it and so does CE - at least Windows Mobile devices do through the OAL - OEM Abstraction Layer. PalmOS doesn't, or doesn't do it well.

95/98/ME also did a pretty poor job of it so you had all of those VxD's having to be written which were a major source of unstability and conflicts.

[Fishie]

Ed there are plenty of options for people who want a WiFi enabled PalmOS machine, the machines that dont have it is either by marketing choice(just as Sony refused to share the specifications of their sound chip:api) or becouse THE HARDWARE simply cantr handle it.

You come here and say no one claimed it was an OS isseu yet when I quote you directly with a quote where YOU straight out claimed it was all the fault of the OS you change your argumentation yet again.

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed there are plenty of options for people who want a WiFi enabled PalmOS machine, the machines that dont have it is either by marketing choice(just as Sony refused to share the specifications of their sound chip:api) or becouse THE HARDWARE simply cantr handle it.
You come here and say no one claimed it was an OS isseu yet when I quote you directly with a quote where YOU straight out claimed it was all the fault of the OS you change your argumentation yet again.
So it is your position that if Windows mobile was loaded on a Treo or a T5 or any other ARM based device that has Palm OS on it that these devices would mysteriously be incapable of using standard WM WiFi drivers because they have hardware problems?

And please show me the quote where I "straight out claimed it was all the fault of the OS."

And check out http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=300686#300686 where TWALK commented some excellent points, including something about getting WiFi working on a PalmOS device being very difficult and it isn't related to hardware.

[Fishie]

Some of the machines strangely do not support IO and others like the Treo from what I have been told have an underpowered SD slot, the slot simply cant provide the juice a WiFi card demands so yah those would qualify as hardware isseus rather then software.

[Janak Parekh]

qualify as hardware isseus rather then software.
I think it's simple to say we don't know the whole picture for sure. It's possible (I think likely) there are both hardware and software issues in play here. I have heard not only from the linked developer but others that PalmOS 4 and 5 are very hard to write drivers for. Witness the fact (if I'm not mistaken) that the T5 doesn't support PalmOne's WiFi card, at least yet.

--janak

[Fishie]

True that, and with sales of the machine being so lackluster they might never get around providing one for it and might just quickly try to forget about its existence alltogether.

I wouldnt be surprised if they are busy working on a replacement to be released asap.

[Ed Hansberry]

For those following this: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38424