X50/X50v Battery

[Kati Compton]

We've seen a few reports on the battery life of the X50/X50v. Basically, at full brightness, heavy use, and with wireless on, the battery life can be quite short. People have, however, gotten significantly better battery life by lowering the screen brightness and/or turning off wireless, but some have their doubts as to whether or not this models everyday use accurately.<br /><br />For those of you who have or are considering ordering an X50/X50v, did you buy or are you going to buy the extended battery?<br /><br />[Edit - Jason Dunn now has a few <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=33593&highlight=">battery tests posted</a>]

[MPSmith]

Since I carry my PPC around a lot, I'd like it to be as thin as possible. I imagine that the extended battery would make the X50v too thick for me. I would consider buying a 2nd regular battery, in the future. The 1100mAh spec does seem a little light to me...

I'm going to wait and see what my power needs are before buying any extra batteries at all.

[CESkins]

I have an iPAQ 4150 and rarely use WiFi and my screen at max brightness. If I do so, my battery life would be no more than a little over 2 hrs. Granted, the 4150 does not have as large a battery capacity as the x50v or the 4700 out the box. I primarily use BT (for web surfing, active sync, and BT keyboard) and the lowest screen brightness and average ~ 4 hrs continuous use. For my everyday needs, I suspect that the battery that comes with the x50v will suffice. For those who use WiFi all day, it most likely won't.

[Darius Wey]

Since I carry my PPC around a lot, I'd like it to be as thin as possible. I imagine that the extended battery would make the X50v too thick for me. I would consider buying a 2nd regular battery, in the future. The 1100mAh spec does seem a little light to me...

I'm going to wait and see what my power needs are before buying any extra batteries at all.

That's the issue though. You will need to use the second battery as much as the first one otherwise the life of the battery will drop. That is why I refrain from purchasing additional batteries (not just for my Pocket PC, but laptop as well). The concept of an extended battery adds that "convenience" factor into it.

[MPSmith]

That's the issue though. You will need to use the second battery as much as the first one otherwise the life of the battery will drop. That is why I refrain from purchasing additional batteries (not just for my Pocket PC, but laptop as well). The concept of an extended battery adds that "convenience" factor into it.

That's a good point.

If I bought a 2nd battery, I would only use it as an emergency battery and label it with tape on the inside (so I know which is which). That way I would always have one nearly new battery and one used battery and wouldn't have to worry about using each battery equally.

[CESkins]

You will need to use the second battery as much as the first one otherwise the life of the battery will drop.
Why would the life of the battery drop if you own a second battery. One would think that the battery life would be extended as Lithium ion batteries lifespan are measured in total recharge cycles. If you aren't frequently depleting and recharging the Li battery it should last quite some time before it stops holding a charge. Also Dell was kind enough to include a charger for the 2nd battery in the cradle so it can always be "topped off". :)

[Darius Wey]

You will need to use the second battery as much as the first one otherwise the life of the battery will drop.
Why would the life of the battery drop if you own a second battery. One would think that the battery life would be extended as Lithium ion batteries lifespan are measured in total recharge cycles. If you aren't frequently depleting and recharging the Li battery it should last quite some time before it stops holding a charge. Also Dell was kind enough to include a charger for the 2nd battery in the cradle so it can always be "topped off". :)

Haha. It doesn't quite work that way. Yes, they have recharge cycles which measure the lifespan, but bear in mind that rechargeable batteries store its electrical energy by way of chemical reactions. Ultimately, a number of factors can affect its capacity: temperature, number of recharge cycles used, the unused storage period, and another thing called "conditioning".

With Li-Ion batteries, you want to avoid two things: (1) full discharge states (when possible), and (2) leaving them unused (more so in a discharged state) for an extended period of time.

With the second point, you want to avoid this as you can increase the risk of a battery short-circuit, for electrochemical reasons I won't go into. Basically, it's not good for the overall life cycle of the battery. This concept is known as "conditioning" and also applies to the fact whereby you generally fully charge the battery when you use it for the first time to "activate" its chemical components to allow for full battery life.

It's confusing, I admit it. ;)

[Darius Wey]

I realised what I said in the first post was a bit confusing. I meant that you should interchange between the two batteries when you charge and use them in the same timeframe, rather than going through battery #1 until it's dead and it's lifespan is depleted, and then going through battery #2. Why? For the reasons I listed above. :)

[CESkins]

I'm not a chemist but I do have a background in the biomedical sciences so I follow your logic. :) I had an iPAQ 3150 refuse to hold a charge after letting it sit around long enough that the battery trickled down to zero. Of course, the 3150 series batteries were not user accessible so I now use it as a paperweight (will send it to the tech guys to replace the battery at some point and then give it to my sister). Experience is always a good instructor (if not always a pleasant one :( ).

[x999x]

The battery life on some of these wifi PDAs is pretty interesting. It brings about the question, "What is the manufacturer's ideal usage for one of these devices?"

After experiencing the short lifespans of the 3115 and 4155, I had no choice but to buy an extended battery for my 4155. My usage obviously doesn't fit the manufacturer's original intentions, but then who's does?

[jasondearyou]

does the battery potrude from the casing? or is it the same size as the normal one?

[Dermot81]

The extended battery protrudes.

[silver99]

That's exactly the reason I didn't buy an extended battery - just an additional one. I didn't want to have to carry around 2 different cases.

One question: Will it hurt the spare battery to just leave it in the charger and use it when necessary?

[ChemNerd]

The battery life is the main thing that made me hesitate on the Axim. It however boilded down to HP and Dell.

The strikes against Dell were a horrible battery and a screen not as good as HP (that 4" sony lcd is just liquid sex).

But HP also had that horrible touch pad, was 100 more (I could have ordered for 589), and HP really has shown repeatedly that they care very little for existing customers.

So I decided on the Dell and just to order a spare battery. I didn't go for the extended because that also means it extends from the device and I can't imagine that being a very comfortable feel unless they take advantage of the lithium polymer and make the entire unit a little thicker and have the battery just secure somehow which would work quite well.

All in all for the unit and a spare battery including tax and shipping I paid just over 500 dollars so I'm saving lots of money and now have a battery life of 2200mAh.

We'll see how it works out.

[Darius Wey]

One question: Will it hurt the spare battery to just leave it in the charger and use it when necessary?

It's probably not a good idea. As long as it's connected to the charger, you will be providing power to it and it is not a good idea to charge the battery for extensive periods. You will only accelerate the aging process of the battery. This is why I'm not really "for" the idea of separate batteries, unless you can guarantee yourself that you will get the maximal utility from both batteries by using them properly. :)

[Toshi]

one downside to 2 batteries no one has mentioned is the fact that you have to carry that other battery with you. That seems like a hassle. The more components I carry, the more likely I lose them.

Also, are there any pictures of the device with the EXT battery?

[MikeUnwired]

Owning a HP iPAQ hx4700, I was immediately worried that the feature-set (VGA screen, WiFi and Bluetooth wireless, etc...) would such the life out of the battery it ships with. So far, I've been surprised that the life seems quite good. While I used my h2215 and my Palm Treo 600 with the brightness on full, I find that the crisper screen technology of the hx4700 leaves me with it set at about 60% bright most of the time. For the first time since maybe the old Palm IIIc, I find that full bright is too bring for me. It certainly helps the battery life to toggle the wireless radios off when they aren't in use as well.

Because of the issues with size of the extended units, I'm most likely going to wait for a higher MAh standard sixed unit from Lion Battery / Mugen. They have told us at iPaqHQ that they will be shipping one soon. As with my h2215, I'll carry a fully charged extra battery with me as a back-up, although I find myself on the road with a car charger / at my home / work desk more than enough of the day to avoid having to use the back-up the majority of the time.

Because of the size of the hx4700, keeping everything iside the stock footprint is important. Adding any depth makes the unit less pocketable (in the breast pocket of a suit coat specifically.) I'd like to get a skin-tight aluminum case around my unit as soon as possible, so an extended battery just won't do it for me if it adds depth to the unit -- unless a company is willing to offer a deeper case option, which I highly doubt will happen.

[Kati Compton]

With Li-Ion batteries, you want to avoid two things: (1) full discharge states (when possible), and (2) leaving them unused (more so in a discharged state) for an extended period of time.

Hmmmm... I thought that with the Li-Ion batteries the full discharge wasn't necessary most of the time, and that "topping it off" was perfectly acceptable.

[MPSmith]

Hmmmm... I thought that with the Li-Ion batteries the full discharge wasn't necessary most of the time, and that "topping it off" was perfectly acceptable.

This article (http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page6.asp) answers a lot of the questions in this thread.

[felixdd]

One question: Will it hurt the spare battery to just leave it in the charger and use it when necessary?

It's probably not a good idea. As long as it's connected to the charger, you will be providing power to it and it is not a good idea to charge the battery for extensive periods. You will only accelerate the aging process of the battery. This is why I'm not really "for" the idea of separate batteries, unless you can guarantee yourself that you will get the maximal utility from both batteries by using them properly. :)

That and also because you'll probably heat the battery by giving it continual power, which is also bad.

[ADBrown]

With Li-Ion batteries, you want to avoid two things: (1) full discharge states (when possible), and (2) leaving them unused (more so in a discharged state) for an extended period of time.

Hmmmm... I thought that with the Li-Ion batteries the full discharge wasn't necessary most of the time, and that "topping it off" was perfectly acceptable.

Actually you're right on both counts, which is exactly what DJ was saying--I guess you must have accidently misread his post.

To all concerned.. when you leave a LiIon battery in the charger, it is not being continuously charged. Each battery has internal circuitry which monitors charging and shuts off when the battery is fully charged. That's when you get the green light on the charger. Leaving it unused in the charger won't hurt it any more than leaving it unused outside the charger. No worries. As long as you make sure to exercise it a little every so often, it shouldn't be too adversely affected. If you want to keep an emergency backup battery, I'd advise reversing them every few weeks to keep them adjusted.

On the subject of the X50v's battery life, I've found it pretty satisfactory. Something that doesn't get mentioned a lot is that the X50v's lowest brightness setting is equivalent to 50-60% on other devices. This may make problems in totally dark environments, but otherwise I find it nice. In the roughly 11 days since I finished my battery life tests on the X50v, I have not moved it off the minimum brightness, not even in a daylit room or under 200 watts of artificial light. On this setting, with wireless off and not overtaxing the processor, the X50v can go for for 6 hours easily, and 8 if pushed.

My laptop is out of comission for a few days, so I've been leaning on the X50v for web surfing a lot. With wireless turned on, and power save mode off (a temporary neccessity due to the access point I'm using) the X50v is very similar to my X30 high-end in battery life. For me, this does neccessitate using a second standard battery, but that's life. I think that if you want to really exploit the processor and wireless a lot of the time, you should certainly consider another standard or extended battery.

By the way, ChemNerd, don't feel too bad. I think the LCD on the 4700 is not as good as it's made out to be. I've got one in front of me, and compared to the X50v, the colors are more vibrant, but the whites are a bit yellowish.

[MPSmith]

On the subject of the X50v's battery life, I've found it pretty satisfactory.

Thanks for the update on the X50v's battery. I'm so glad to hear that its not so bad. Sounds like you're having fun messing around with your X50v! Can't wait until late November, when mine is scheduled to arrive!

To your knowledge, has anyone done a detailed battery assessement of the X50v (beyond what we saw after the first couple of days after its release/pre-release?)

[ADBrown]

On the subject of the X50v's battery life, I've found it pretty satisfactory.

Thanks for the update on the X50v's battery. I'm so glad to hear that its not so bad. Sounds like you're having fun messing around with your X50v! Can't wait until late November, when mine is scheduled to arrive!

To your knowledge, has anyone done a detailed battery assessement of the X50v (beyond what we saw after the first couple of days after its release/pre-release?)

I'm not sure--what sort of information are you looking for?

[MPSmith]

I'm not sure--what sort of information are you looking for?

1. Benchmarks against several other popular PDA's
2. How long will the battery last at the lowest brightness setting:
a) with wi-fi on
b) with wi-fi off, using PIM and other programs
c) viewing movies
d) totally idle
3. How long will the battery last under these conditions on other high-end PPC's?

I'm not asking much, right? :wink:

Edit: I know you wrote a nice review on BargainPDA that had the most comrehesive tests so far and found that the battery at the minimum brightness could last as long as 8.5 hours. I'd like to see more tests at the lowest brightness level & similar tests on other PDA's. It's possible that the X50v is sometimes getting a bad rap partially because its screen is brighter than most other PDA's. I don't have one, so I don't know...

[ADBrown]

I'm not sure--what sort of information are you looking for?

1. Benchmarks against several other popular PDA's
2. How long will the battery last at the lowest brightness setting:
a) with wi-fi on
b) with wi-fi off, using PIM and other programs
c) viewing movies
d) totally idle
3. How long will the battery last under these conditions on other high-end PPC's?

I'm not asking much, right? :wink:

Well, I know the answer to 2D right off the top of my head: 8 hours, 47 minutes, performed on my very own X50v. If I get a chance soon, I'll run down some of the rest of those.

[horseflesh]

One question: Will it hurt the spare battery to just leave it in the charger and use it when necessary?

It's probably not a good idea. As long as it's connected to the charger, you will be providing power to it and it is not a good idea to charge the battery for extensive periods.

I don't think that is true. The charger/battery combo should be smart enough not to overcharge the battery. Plus, these lithium ion batteries HATE being discharged all the way. If you put it in a drawer and it goes completely dead, you have damaged it. I think keeping the extra battery in the cradle when not in use is the only way to fly.

[MPSmith]

I think keeping the extra battery in the cradle when not in use is the only way to fly.

I tend to agree.

[horseflesh]

I have an iPAQ 4150 and rarely use WiFi and my screen at max brightness.

Same here. When I am out and about, WLAN is only on rarely, and I keep the screen at the lowest brightness, because frankly it is bright enough. Heck, the lowest brightness on my 4150 is better than the highest brightness on my former 3870!

When I am at home or work, somewhere I know I'll be cradling it often, I may splurge and turn up the brightness, but really I am used to the dimmest level.

I've only had problems with running out of juice a couple of times, such as during a looong travel day with lots of downtime and no access to a charger.

So far I am planning on getting the X50V, and I am not worried about the battery.

[x999x]

The reasons I went for an extended battery over another stock battery is primarily for two reasons: 1- Convenience of not having to switch. 2- Not having to carry a potential hazard on my person (backup battery).

I'm a little weary at carrying a battery in my pocket, be it coat or pants, I just find it unsettling, especially with all the cellphone mishaps with people getting burned in the news a while back. It's not just that the contacts are exposed, I can find a case or something for that, but that adds yet more bulk and more baggage. What bothers me is the physical integrity of these batteries under the load of a bump, fall, or getting squashed (like my coat being used as something to sit on while forgetting my backup battery is in the front pocket.)

I'm not sure what other batteries look like, but the HP batteries I've had (1945, 3115, 4155), all seem to be cells encased in a plastic frame with a thin plastic wrapper label holding it all together :o

What are people using as cases for their spare batteries? Considering their importance, how sturdy and how much more bulk to they add to your total daily pocket-cargo?

Oh, and thanks for the info on keeping the spare batteries in the 2nd dock station. I knew I had heard that it was OK somewhere before, but I didn't want to trust my vague recollection until I found others who could verify it first :)

-Edit for posts above

I also am using a 4150, and have to say that based on my usage patterns, I was very disappointed in it's battery life with wifi load. I use my pocketPC as a conduit to my mediacenter, as well as for browsing the web while in the living room with my girlfriend. That said, I use my 4155 for hours at a time with wifi going, or at least it was my intention to until I realized I needed an extended battery to make that a plausible reality.

Since getting my extended battery I've actually turned my screen brightness up a couple of notches and can say I'm never going back down.

[Jason Dunn]

I'll be publishing some X50v/X50 battery life tests on Monday morning, but they won't be as extensive as MPSmith is asking for (that would take an insane amount of time). Still, they should help a bit, especially since I created a standardized method of testing active WiFi usage.

[jlp]

One question: Will it hurt the spare battery to just leave it in the charger and use it when necessary?

It's probably not a good idea. As long as it's connected to the charger, you will be providing power to it and it is not a good idea to charge the battery for extensive periods. You will only accelerate the aging process of the battery. This is why I'm not really "for" the idea of separate batteries, unless you can guarantee yourself that you will get the maximal utility from both batteries by using them properly. :)

So why not just swap batteries everytime you charge your device?!! As soon as you unplug the device after the battery is charged, just swap with the other battery. That way you can be sure you use both as much; at least it's the closest you can get.

[Kati Compton]

That and also because you'll probably heat the battery by giving it continual power, which is also bad.
THAT'S more what I thought the problem was, but for now I'm off to read the article on batteries that was kindly pointed out.

[Kati Compton]

So why not just swap batteries everytime you charge your device?!! As soon as you unplug the device after the battery is charged, just swap with the other battery. That way you can be sure you use both as much; at least it's the closest you can get.

Well, if you read the battery article that was pointed to, it says you shouldn't store your batteries for long at full charge...

But I suppose if it's being changed 1x per day or so, that should be okay...

[Qooop]

I don't see a single post here by anyone who actually has received a X50 yet. I ordered the first day they were avaialable and my estimated ship date is 11/17. I doubt if there have been very many of them distributed yet. I will see, I really don't use the wireless a whole lot, it is more a convienience thing.

[Kati Compton]

I don't see a single post here by anyone who actually has received a X50 yet. I ordered the first day they were avaialable and my estimated ship date is 11/17. I doubt if there have been very many of them distributed yet. I will see, I really don't use the wireless a whole lot, it is more a convienience thing.
Only a few people, generally those running tech sites like this, actually have one yet. The earliest ship date I've heard is the one you have. Mine's the 18th, as I ordered on the 2nd day.

[mmidgley]

So why not just swap batteries everytime you charge your device?!!

If you make that your policy, I hope the contacts and spring-loaded-battery-attachment mechanical engineering and materials are up to it!

Devices are getting reasonably sized in my opinion (meaning small) so I'd think it would be generally accepted to up the size of the device to provide slightly better standard battery sizes. Providing an extended battery that is roughly double the capacity of the standard battery, especially with power hungry devices, alone seems to suggest the deficiency. :evil:

m.

[Chris Leckness]

I think keeping the extra battery in the cradle when not in use is the only way to fly.

I tend to agree.


The X50v has 4 Processor Modes:
Maximum Performance
Normal
Power-Saving
Auto

I have performed 2 tests at Maximum Performance with Full Brightness:
Constant WiFi = 2 hr 2 min
Standard Use = 2 hr 40 min

and 2 tests at Power-Saving with Minimum Viewable Brightness:
Constant WiFi = 3 hr 15 min
Standard Use = 5 hr 11 min

and 1 test with No Display at Max Performance (using earphones) :
Constant MP3 playback = 7 hr 02 min

These tests were performed with SPB Benchmark



[/list][/list]

[Darius Wey]

With Li-Ion batteries, you want to avoid two things: (1) full discharge states (when possible), and (2) leaving them unused (more so in a discharged state) for an extended period of time.

Hmmmm... I thought that with the Li-Ion batteries the full discharge wasn't necessary most of the time, and that "topping it off" was perfectly acceptable.

The full discharge isn't necessary. In fact, it's advisable not to.

So why not just swap batteries everytime you charge your device?!! As soon as you unplug the device after the battery is charged, just swap with the other battery. That way you can be sure you use both as much; at least it's the closest you can get.

That was the point I've been trying to get at since my first post. If you plan on getting a second battery, swap and change between them if you want to maximise the lifespan of both batteries. :)

[G M Fude]

It's probably not a bad idea to run the battery power as low as you dare once in a while. This does little if anything for the battery itself, but I've read that it does help the power meter in the PDA reset. If there are only 'minor' discharges with normal use, the meter has a smaller range to calibrate on, and eventually becomes inaccurate.

Does this make sense? Sorry, I just got off the redeye back from Hong Kong and I've had about 2 hour's sleep in the last 30 or so; not feeling very coherent.

[jodpel]

I went with the 4700 which hasn't arrived, yet. I find the battery life numbers for the X50V to be surprisingly good... acceptable for my use. I always use my PDA with the lowest brightness setting that is viewable to me which is usually the lowest notch where it stays on without flickering. However, I just keep thinking "If the 1100mAh runs 5 hours between charges, then my 1800mAh is going to run 7 or 8 hours." In other words, if the 1100 is good enough, then the 1800 should be fantastic. I still think the X50V is a great machine and much better bang for the buck, but the battery and .3 inches more screen makes me try the 4700 first. I just hope the touchpad doesn't suck.

Thanks for running battery tests with the brightness down and the WiFi on... that is great information and not everyone does it. It seems that a lot of reviewers put the brightness on max. I'm not interested in how fast one can burn through the battery, I want to know how long I can make it last. That's exactly what you posted.

[MPSmith]

I think keeping the extra battery in the cradle when not in use is the only way to fly.

I tend to agree.


The X50v has 4 Processor Modes:
Maximum Performance
Normal
Power-Saving
Auto

I have performed 2 tests at Maximum Performance with Full Brightness:
Constant WiFi = 2 hr 2 min
Standard Use = 2 hr 40 min

and 2 tests at Power-Saving with Minimum Viewable Brightness:
Constant WiFi = 3 hr 15 min
Standard Use = 5 hr 11 min

and 1 test with No Display at Max Performance (using earphones) :
Constant MP3 playback = 7 hr 02 min

These tests were performed with SPB Benchmark



[/list][/list]

That answers my questions! Hey, I thought you were on vacation!

[maximus]

I am rather paranoid about power, I always have spare batteries for all devices that I have. So, I guess it wil be a second regular 1100 mAH battery.

[Chris Leckness]

MPSmith - Back... I just had to reinstall XP for the 1st time in 2.5 years (got too unbearable)

jodpel - Yes, most reviewers do only run a couple standard tests, as I also do, but the extended tests were after my initial review. If I have enough time with a unit, I do more... short lead time... less. Most of the X50v review units did not make it to us web guys early enough.

[tjy]

Why don't polls like this have an alternate thought line. In this case something like:
I expect a PocketPC to have an adaquate battery life.

This will give the manufacturers something to think about. The way the current poll was phrased, it seems to say that the inadaquate battery is ok. Just my humble opinion.

[Kati Compton]

Why don't polls like this have an alternate thought line. In this case something like:
I expect a PocketPC to have an adaquate battery life.

This will give the manufacturers something to think about. The way the current poll was phrased, it seems to say that the inadaquate battery is ok. Just my humble opinion.
Because then every poll would be 80 lines long, and STILL someone would complain. ;) Besides, a poll like this would have skewed results:

Battery life?
O I expect a PocketPC to have an adequate battery life.
O I don't expect a PocketPC to have an adequate battery life.

Who's going to vote the 2nd option? Not many people, if any. Not enough to provide actual information.

Basically, I've griped about it in other threads. We've had several "HP or Dell?" "Which VGA PPC?" polls, and that's where people have talked about it. And my assertion that the extended battery is a requirement means I *don't* think the battery size in the X50v is okay.

[Jonathon Watkins]

The numbers Jason put up sound good enough for me. I tend to use my X5 at the lower notch of brighness anyway, so that's not a problem.

Now just to wait to be able to order the X50v. :?

[maximus]

For me, too much brightness hurts my eye. So I always set the brightness to the 2nd or 3rd notch on my X5.

X50v or mpx220. hmpf. Tough choice.