Wow.....

[Busdriver]

that didn't take long! 8O :wink:

[JustinGTP]

Am I missing something?

Didn't take long for what?

[Peter Traugot]

I think he means the front page story of the windows PocketPC OS v5 mention.

Not that I saw ANYTHING! :roll:

[jlp]

Yeah I didn't even have time to read it, just saw the screenshot and I thought: "It's about time they enhanced P.Word". During the same time it took MS PPC devs to do...nothing, desktop Word went thru THREE iterations 8O.

I saw there were 5 answers to the article, I looked at different sites in other browser windows, returned to PPCT, hit "Reload page" to see how many answers there was and it was gone 8O.

[jlp]

Well in fact I don't care too much, just pure curiosity.

Anyway long before CE 5/PPC05 will be out, my next pocket PC (http://www.oqo.com) will run WinXP :twisted:

[cynicbynature]

Brighthand's (http://www.brighthand.com/article/More_Magneto_Details_Emerge?site=PPC) got you covered, broken link to PPCT and all. ;)

In truth it's not too interesting, mainly stuff I heard rumors of/would have expected by now from WM2005 (save perhaps Dr. Watson).

[klinux]

Does that mean I have to repeat my Dr. Watson joke again? :lol:

[Paul Martin]

Glad I wasn't the only one. I hit refresh and BOOM, story gone. I think it's been a while since content was yanked. Big brother is watching. 0X

[Jason Dunn]

Yeah, we pulled it at Microsoft's request. Sorry guys, you'll have to go to another site to get this particular piece of news (and that frustrates me to no end). :?

[Paul Martin]

Thanks, Jason. Appreciate you posting what you can.

[Jason Dunn]

Thanks, Jason. Appreciate you posting what you can.

Thanks for understanding. When we're allowed to talk about the OS-which-cannot-be-named, I'm sure we'll have a lot to say. ;-) (notice I'm using the royal "We"). :lol:

[Busdriver]

What is "Dr Watson"?

[OSUKid7]

Yeah, we pulled it at Microsoft's request. Sorry guys, you'll have to go to another site to get this particular piece of news (and that frustrates me to no end). :?Just wondering, what is Microsoft's policy on things like this? I'm sure a lot of us follow tech news too and have seen quite detailed information about Longhorn. Why is news about those leaks alowed? (or are they not really?)

[OSUKid7]

What is "Dr Watson"?It was an error-tracking/reporting tool in Win9x...may still be in 2K/XP, don't really remember.

[Tye]

Now, in my opinion, the funny part about this is that if MS raised such a stink about it then it's probably accurate information. If it was bad info then MS would just let it slide. :roll: Remember all the rumors that said SE would have a task switcher?
So, off to Brighthand.

[ctmagnus]

What is "Dr Watson"?It was an error-tracking/reporting tool in Win9x...may still be in 2K/XP, don't really remember.

Yes, it is. You've never had a crash that invoked it?

[Darius Wey]

Just wondering, what is Microsoft's policy on things like this? I'm sure a lot of us follow tech news too and have seen quite detailed information about Longhorn. Why is news about those leaks alowed? (or are they not really?)

There's always a great deal of controversy surrounding subjects such as these. Being the company that makes the software, I'm sure it's quite frustrating to hear about leaks of impending releases. There were leaks of Longhorn. There were leaks of Windows Mobile 2005. Heck, there were even leaks of Halo 2! No matter how much security surrounds a certain piece of software, there's always someone that manages to get the news out. Sadly, for the company, it's inevitable. Yet probably of benefit to the "geeks", it's inevitable too! :D Companies like to make things "official". Yet once a leak gets out, you can put your money on the fact that it will spread...rapidly!

Microsoft asked Jason to pull the news from the site. And to my belief, it was done due to the positive connections that exist between PPCT and Microsoft. Yet Microsoft cannot be guaranteed that other sites will do the same thing.

So to cut a long story short, you asked why are such leaks allowed? In theory, they're not. But they're inevitable. And once news gets out, it gets out, and then that gets everyone out there excited, which means that people have high expectations of a particular piece of software, and then once it becomes officially announced, they find that not all of their expectations have been met, and then they start to cause a fuss about it, and then there's further leaks of updated versions of the software, and the vicious cycle continues. ;)

My thoughts anyway...

[Jason Dunn]

I'm sure a lot of us follow tech news too and have seen quite detailed information about Longhorn. Why is news about those leaks alowed? (or are they not really?)

Simple: because news about an upcoming OS doesn't impact the sales of computers today. No one says "Oh, I'll put off buying a computer until I can get Longhorn on it"....but some people definitely WILL say "Oh, I'll put off buying a new Pocket PC until OS XYZ comes out..." - the fear is that OS and device leaks kill sales of current devices. I'm not saying I completely agree with that mind you, but that's the mentality...

[rocky_raher]

....but some people definitely WILL say "Oh, I'll put off buying a new Pocket PC until OS XYZ comes out..." - the fear is that OS and device leaks kill sales of current devices. I'm not saying I completely agree with that mind you, but that's the mentality...

In the early days of portable computing, before laptops, we had "luggables." These were the first "portable" (ROFL) computers. They were the size and weight of a small suitcase. After traveling to your destination, you plugged it into an AC outlet (no battery). It had a 5" CRT monitor, a 5" floppy drive (no hard drive IIRC), a full-size keyboard, and the latest version of DOS. At the time, they were marvels and objects of envy.

One of the early innovators was Adam Osborne. His first computer, the Osborne I, sold very well. After building the first prototype of the Osborne II, he himself announced to the world the wonderful specs of the Osborne II. People immediately stopped buyng Osborne I's, in anticipation of the II. Unfortunately, he hadn't started full-scale production of the II yet, and the company had warehouses full of Osborne I's. With no income and mountain of unwanted inventory, the company soon went out of business.

I have little doubt that, when Bill Gates reads about unauthorized new Microsoft product leaks, he thinks about Adam Osborne.

[rocky_raher]

news about an upcoming OS doesn't impact the sales of computers today. No one says "Oh, I'll put off buying a computer until I can get Longhorn on it"....but some people definitely WILL say "Oh, I'll put off buying a new Pocket PC until OS XYZ comes out..." - the fear is that OS and device leaks kill sales of current devices.

The reason new OS rumors affect PocketPC sales so much more than desktop PC sales is that we assume that any new version of Windows can be installed on pretty much any desktop with an Intel-family CPU, regardless of age, while upgrading the OS on a PPC is much more unlikely.

[When is HP coming out with the WM2003 upgrade for my Jonada 548??]

[Janak Parekh]

I have little doubt that, when Bill Gates reads about unauthorized new Microsoft product leaks, he thinks about Adam Osborne.
Indeed, and that's why I wrote a brief thought (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10577) on his death last year.

--janak

[maximus]

What is "Dr Watson"?It was an error-tracking/reporting tool in Win9x...may still be in 2K/XP, don't really remember.

Yes, it is. You've never had a crash that invoked it?

Hmm. Haven't see that watson stuffs after I migrated to XP.
All I see is the "You have an error, would you like to send/no send the information to microsoft" dialog box.

[Janak Parekh]

Hmm. Haven't see that watson stuffs after I migrated to XP. All I see is the "You have an error, would you like to send/no send the information to microsoft" dialog box.
Right - the Dr. Watson functionality is much better integrated into the OS's dialogs nowadays. But, it's still there. You can verify this by doing Start -> Run -> drwtsn32.exe [Enter].

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

The reason new OS rumors affect PocketPC sales so much more than desktop PC sales is that we assume that any new version of Windows can be installed on pretty much any desktop with an Intel-family CPU, regardless of age, while upgrading the OS on a PPC is much more unlikely.

Absolutely! That's the core problem. Also, you can always upgrade components on your desktop PC to make it more compatible with the new OS...which you can't do on a Pocket PC.

[JustinGTP]

Funny how Jason mentioned in in this article, but now that I know that there will be a newer Windows Mobile coming soon next year and now that I know the track record of Pocket PC Manufactureres and their resitance to upgrade our current devices, I am definitly going to wait. If Microsoft wants no one to stop buying their old Windows Mobile 2003 units, they had better have their own d/l for upgrades or something.

I can update my Windows XP system through Microsoft's site, why can I only update my Windows Mobile system through the manufacturer, i.e HP?

-Justin.

[jlp]

As Justin and many others show, it's creating a big disservice to manufacturers to NOT offer upgrades beyond the very latest devices. Like Justin, instead of buying a new device, confidently knowing we can upgrade it to WM05 (or whatever name this new iteration will bear*) when it comes out, we put off our present purchases.

MS made it mandatory to include flash ROM for easy upgrade, but now they don't seem to care if manufacturers DO offer upgrades. At the time of PPC2k2 you had UU1, and UU2 and UU3 I think that were quite quickly available. Now WM03SE (that's to WM03 what UU1, 2 and 3 were to PPC2k2) is not even available to devices still sold very recently (Axim X5, X30 and X30 come to mind; there's no upgrade, only preinstalled on new devices).



*=Twas Windows Powered Pocket PC, then Windows Mobile for Pocket PC, what's next?? :evil:

[JustinGTP]

See! That's exactly what it is as jlp said! These manufacturers are doing themeselves a disservice because now I am not confident in purchasing a product that will become outdated only because of the OS it is running.

:evil:

-Justin

[Jason Dunn]

I feel your pain guys...the MVPs as a group got into a fairly heated debate with someone from the mobile devices team about this very issue. It's complicated, but it more or less boils down to the fact that Pocket PCs are not 100% commodotized yet, and there's no hardware abstraction layer. The two of those things pust together mean that OEMs do funky, custom things that make it impossible for Microsoft to release updates to the OS, because the OEM needs to do this...and we've seen how bad some of them are at doing that. :roll:

[ctmagnus]

But what about the WMP8 upgrade that was released by Microsoft for PPC2002 devices that had been upgraded from PPC2000?

[Jason Dunn]

But what about the WMP8 upgrade that was released by Microsoft for PPC2002 devices that had been upgraded from PPC2000?

Things have changed a lot since then, namely Microsoft's willingness to do RAM-based installers. :cry:

[KimVette]

Yeah, we pulled it at Microsoft's request. Sorry guys, you'll have to go to another site to get this particular piece of news (and that frustrates me to no end). :?

Why oh why do you bend to Microsoft's and HP's and Dell's requests/demands to squelch news? Note: this is not intended to be a flame, but an encoragement to let information flow. If this kind of information remains publicly posted and common users (not just power users who frequent this site) grow wise to how badly the OEM's are um. . . (insert naughty word here) them over by not releasing the upgrades, they'll quit buying until the OEMs actually PROVIDE the functionality that M$ requires. M$ already requires OEMs to make the firmware flashable in order to use the PocketPC name, but they don't currently force OEMs to release updates, leaving us with no recourse but to (illegally) pirate, reverse-engineer, and hand-patch our own PocketPCs, especially when the original innovators (Compaq/HP, Casio, etc.) abandoned the expandable PPC form factors and we NEED the expansion capability.

I know, you think I'm whining about the same old thing, but forcing users to buy new PPCs to receive minor fixes when a flashable, upgradable firmware is now in EVERY PPC is inexcusable and should be criminal.

[Jason Dunn]

Why oh why do you bend to Microsoft's and HP's and Dell's requests/demands to squelch news?

We removed the information at the request of Microsoft because of our NDA with them. This technically wasn't a breech of our NDA, but they asked and in the interest of good relations we took it down.

We haven't "squelched" news from HP or Dell recently, so I don't know what you're referring to there.

[webdaemon]

OK, where else was it mentioned? I missed it...

EDIT: nvm, I found it. Makes me want to cancel my x50v order. I see why M$ squelched the article.

[Paragon]

I can update my Windows XP system through Microsoft's site, why can I only update my Windows Mobile system through the manufacturer, i.e HP?


The main reason for this is that when you buy Windows XP you are a customer of Microsoft. When you buy a Pocket PC you are not. You are the customer of the OEM who manufactured and sold you the product. MS has no right to deal directly with you and me the end user. They would be short circuiting this process. And it seems that the OEMs must have made an issue of this...just my guess.

I agree that the upgrade system is flawed, or at the least misunderstood because of the lack of communication between Microsoft, OEMs, and end users. End users have absolutely no idea what to expect. I firmly believe there needs to be a definite process of some sort in place so the consumer has some idea what lays or doesn't lay ahead for them.

....oh and Kim...how is it criminal? Did Compaq tell you eleventy million years ago when you bought your 3650 Ipaq and dual PC sleeve that they would give you updates forever? To my knowledge what happened was that we ASSUMED they would continue offering updates.

By MS stating that all systems must be able to be upgraded means that we can get all the fixes that come along...AKU's and the likes. I think as consumers we have put a lot of words in OEMs mouths that leads us all to believe it is our constitutional right to get full upgrades every time there is a new OS released.

Dave

[maximus]

I personally don't understand all these fuss about upgrades.

When I purchased my X5, I fully realized that one day it will be outdated, it will no longer be the coolest gadget on the block. As long as dell kept on producing newer models, which can replace my current PPC, I am fine with that.

Say, you bought the top of the line Nissan 350Z Track Version ... But a week later, Nissan released a twin turbo engine with embedded NOS control for 350Z ... Are you going to demand Nissan to replace your current engine ?

[Paragon]

Say, you bought the top of the line Nissan 350Z Track Version ... But a week later, Nissan released a twin turbo engine with embedded NOS control for 350Z ... Are you going to demand Nissan to replace your current engine ?

Hehe! I was going to use the same situation....just different models! :cool:

[JustinGTP]

Paragon,

Your analogy does not work. What if I were to buy a Dell home PC? I am not dealing directly with Microsoft, yet I can reformat the hard drive and install XP, if I want to.

I simply do not have this luxury for the Pocket PC - and this is what I am moaning at!

Maximus,

Your analogy is also poor. Firstly, I am not demanding that the update be for free, I can pay for that as I would pay for a major update to Windows, i.e 2000 to XP.

Secondly, I am sure that you can trade in your 350Z for the updated version and pay the difference. Also, they wouldn't include NOS as a stock feature.

-Justin.

[Jason Dunn]

Secondly, I am sure that you can trade in your 350Z for the updated version and pay the difference.

You can do the same thing with your Pocket PC - it's called eBay. :lol:

[famousdavis]

No one says "Oh, I'll put off buying a computer until I can get Longhorn on it"...

Well, almost no one does.

Having starting my home computing experiences back in the days of the TRS-80 and IBM PC Junior, I've been through lots of hardware and software upgrades, and, at age 42, I have concluded I don't have the time to waste getting all the inevitable kinks out an operating system upgrade. So, now I'm on a nice schedule of upgrading my home computer about 6-12 months after a new operating system release from Microsoft. My desktop is a 2Ghz Pentium 4 w/80G HD and 512MB RAM -- enough for today's computing needs, and, I suspect, enough to handle my needs through 2005 and into 2006, when Longhorn is released. I bought it shortly after Windows XP was released.

Following the same logic with my PPC, I had intended to skip-over upgrading my iPAQ 1910 to a WM2003 or WM2003SE device and await VGA screens and WM2005. But my PPC database is choking on my 1910, and since Dell has a reasonably-priced VGA model available, and since I installed WiFi at home this summer, it was too compelling not to upgrade before WM2005.

I'm okay with that. My wife can use my 1910, and I may still well upgrade to a WM2005 device if I can find one that's shaped like my 1910. The X50v, while faster and better featured than my 1910, I already know I'm not going to like it as well as my 1910 from the standpoint of physical characteristics.

As Jason pointed out, that's when I can choose to eBay my X50v and get to the device that I really want -- whatever that is, if it comes at all. Since two-year-old, used 1910's can fetch around 30% of their MSRP, I figure my $500 X50v can fetch 60-70% of MSRP next summer or fall. The depreciation cost will be offset by the fun and features I anticipate getting out of the X50v.

[Paragon]

Paragon,

Your analogy does not work. What if I were to buy a Dell home PC? I am not dealing directly with Microsoft, yet I can reformat the hard drive and install XP, if I want to.

....and when you reinstall it who do you contact directly to authenticate it, Microsoft or Dell? Microsoft, of course! It is Microsoft who gives you your own key code, and it is Microsoft who authenticate it. Dell simply install it for you when you buy a PC from them. This isn't the case with Pocket PCs. OEMs purchase the licence from Microsoft. They then build a ROM around that OS that is suited for that particular device, and sell it to you.

I am not demanding that the update be for free, I can pay for that as I would pay for a major update to Windows, i.e 2000 to XP.

Well when you buy a major update such as Windows XP you are paying something like $100.00, not $10.00 which is what OEMs are rumored to pay for Windows Mobile licences. OEMs aren't in business to spread good will and harmonious chear to all good souls on earth. They are in business to make money. They have to answer to their share holders. What kind of investment would they see from their shareholders if they continually told them they were going to keep offering their customers cheap upgrades for 20 or 30 bucks instead of selling them new hardware. You may not like it but it is reality. And it is that kind of reality that is keeping the Windows Mobile platform afloat at the moment. It is not a huge market, and presently is not a fast growing market. If OEMs don't optimize their profit margins as best they can they will be forced to drop the platform completely....as many have.....Panasonic, JVC, Casio and so on. The ones staying with it are the ones who are making the tougher decisions. The decisions they know that a good number of their customers may not like, but if they have little other choice...make money off the platform or drop it.

Dave

[maximus]

The ones staying with it are the ones who are making the tougher decisions. The decisions they know that a good number of their customers may not like, but if they have little other choice...make money off the platform or drop it.

Dave

Couldn't said it better myself :way to go:

[Paragon]

Once every 1200 posts I say something that makes sense....well to some folks anyway. :-)

Dave

[JustinGTP]

I can see both sides of the argument. I think that Microsoft and Manufacturers could make a smart move by offering us an update to Windows Mobile, albeit your PPC can handle it.

-Justin

[rdaprix]

Once every 1200 posts I say something that makes sense....well to some folks anyway. :-)

Dave

Dave: Long time no see--let's hope this is one of those times where you have the sensible :( :( reply!

Here’s the problem Dave and I really need your help. Last week, my hard drive died—the one irreplaceable file it took with it was my MS-money file. I am completely hosed without it and was giving into despair, when—Ta daaaaa—I noticed that my pocket PC was still working and had Pocket Money on it, and all of my transactions and accounts.

The problem is I can’t seem to get MS-Money (the real version on the desktop computer) to read the data from the Pocket Money version.

Do you know anyway I can blow the data from the pocket PC into the desktop PC, or am I still hosed, even though the stuff exists on the pocket PC.

I am really, really, no kidding in trouble here. I will take any help I can get. Do you know what happened to Dale? Anybody else you can think of who might be able to help? Maybe Yorch?

Anyway, e-mail me at [email protected] please. I thank you….

[Paragon]

rdaprix,

I received your email, and replied....good luck, my friend.