Terminal Marketing Madness and PDAs: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, the Ridiculous, etc, etc.

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pcpro.co.uk/columns/63110/idealog-gods-of-the-market.html' target='_blank'>http://www.pcpro.co.uk/columns/6311...the-market.html</a><br /><br /></div><i>"I was a little disappointed when Sony announced it was pulling out of the worldwide PDA market just after I'd bought my second CLIÉ, but I can't say I was surprised. The symptoms of Terminal Marketing Madness (TMM) had been there for months in the shape of dozens of whacky new models with funny hinges and seemingly random price tags....... The areas most prone to TMM - such as the PDA and laptop markets - would appear to be those where the products are in some sense discretionary or luxury purchases, catering to gadget freaks with large disposable incomes. Quite possibly there's an underlying strategy, but it's high-risk gambling rather than investment: throw millions of bucks at a dozen bizarre but innovative designs, and hope that just one will be the big winner."</i><br /><br />Dick Pountain of <a href="www.pcpor.co.uk">PC Pro Magazine</a> usually has interesting things to say and his column in the November edition of PC Pro is no exception. From the look of it, HP is in full Terminal Marketing Madness mode at the moment, with many models making their merry way into shops. So, enter the rz1715, hx2110, hx2410, hx2750, rx3115, rx3415, rx3715, hx4705 and h6315. Many of you guys have said that you are not inspired by any of them. Sure, individually many have nice parts and components, but is there one 'killer' device among them that you would like to own? Are there too many compromises in each one? So what do you guys think? Is it good to have a huge range of models from a manufacture, or is it better to have fewer models, but spend the time to get the feature set right on each one?

[dma1965]

I would much prefer a more complete feature set and better hardware. I love the 3730 features, but wish they had the magnesium case. I also wish Microsoft would fix the core components, such as the lame explorer, and word, and excel, or just let me have the option to remove them.

[Brad Adrian]

Variety IS the spice of life, and most people like to have multiple choices when making purchase decisions. I'm also worried, though, that HP's attempt to cover the entire market with many different devices has resulted in a cadre of ho-hum devices. It's risky to focus on building a narrower range of products with distinct features, but I don't think it's any more risky than flooding the market with undifferentiated models.

[UtK]

What I want to say - there IS the killer device. And it's hx4705.
For it's price (600-650$ here in Moscow), and it's surely the best choice, at least for now - many are still waiting for Dell and Loox.

Other HP devices. Well, they are too overpriced, I think...

[powder2000]

I think the more the better. One problem with the current situation though, what the #$@*! is up with the price range. I feel like I am in the twilight zone of pocket pcs. Their lowest model is a set at such a rediculous price that they are possibly losing out on major retail sails. Also, referring to yesterdays article on names, I used to be able to tell all the models apart, but now I don't have a clue what each model is and what features it has.

[Jason Lee]

Now if HP would just make one that has all the 3700 and 4700 option all in one.. Dual slot, vga, touch pad, dual wireless, 128 lots of RAM and ROM, and all those cool media features (actually only nevo is needed, the server stuff and the camera would be really nice though.) oh and some usb host would be nice too... ;)

Both devices are sooo close to what I want but neither is exactly right... I think this may hurt them a bit. a whole lot of almost there devices that everyone is gonna hold off on until someone combinds the features they want.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Both devices are sooo close to what I want but neither is exactly right... I think this may hurt them a bit. a whole lot of almost there devices that everyone is gonna hold off on until someone combinds the features they want.

Bingo. The 4700 is close, but lacks USB host, a vertical flip sreen & sufficient RAM, only has Fast IR and is perhaps a touch too large. (Though personally I really like the idea of a 4 inch screen. Shrink the bezel a bit more perhaps?) Oh, and of course the price. :?

Close, but not quite.

[gibson042]

"Close but not quite" seems to describe all of the new HPs, with the exception of the "wtf" rz1715. They're just... blah. Even the flagship 4700 just isn't there on RAM or USB hosting, and really is too large. A small number of well-differentiated models seems to be the way to go, like Dell is doing (not to beat a dead horse or anything :wink:).

[Jonathon Watkins]

A small number of well-differentiated models seems to be the way to go, like Dell is doing (not to beat a dead horse or anything :wink:).

The sweet sound of consensus perhaps? :wink: Twice in two days even. :lol:

[dhettel]

Sorry But HP never had the magic, they have bought the iPAQ line, and IMHO kill what magic their was in it. I for one would like to see a new "iPAQ" have a life longer than 6 months.

The biggest problem with HP iPAQs is they don't really work right when first released, and now they are end of life before they are fixed.

Hp sees the iPAQ as a throwaway device, if your current version doesn't work, pitch it and replace it with a newer version. :devilboy: That can work for a one or two time deal, but long run that hurts everything. Hp hasn't figured that out yet, or doesn't care.

Hp has come across as customers don't matter, we are so big and we are the only game in town. They have set themselves up to fail, it is just a question of time.

I have seen lots of ideas as to how much it would cost to upgrade Windows Mobile 2003 to WM 2003SE. The cost of that must be less than coming out with an all new machine. I would rather buy a machine that will be supported through two or four years, than one supported for 6 to 9 months. One that I know the alarms will work, period. No question, not 95 % of the time, not even 99%, but 100%. Having one machine that is in production for several years, means the development cost for it will be less than one in production for 6 months.

I am tired of the hype. The doublespeak.

[Jason Lee]

it's kinda scary that so many of us feel this way. I am one of those people that has had a new ppc every 6 months to a year since the wince 1.0 days and I'm seriously thinking about staying with my 2215 for now. I know that most of the market is fairly conservative and used a device until it is broken or just totally useless. It's us gotta have it now guys that drive stuff. What happens to the PDA market when we all start thinking about maybe not upgrading because we can't get all these new features that are out there in one device? Some one said in another forum that deversity is the spice of life... We have all complained about wanting more choices. But now that we have them looks what's happening. We early adopters can't decide on a new modle, sony and toshiba have just given up... It could be very interesting to see what happnes over the next year or so.
I never thought of HP's barage of new modles as TMM but now that you mention it... 8O eek! So if this is their attemp to try to find that one killer device that they will base all future development and marketing off, and we don't really care too much about any of them, what is gonna happen?

oops almost late for a meeting.. thank goodness my ppc reminded me.. :lol:

[jngold_me]

I now thoroughly convinced that HP has absolutely no clue. :roll:
If HP would have taken logical progressions of the 2200 and 4100/1900 series and add the 4000 series as a replacement for the aging 5000 series then I could understand. The 2000 and 4000 series was very successful in bringing many into the PPC fold as well as providing enough differences and features to lure "upgraders" such as most of us here.

This current line-up is just a mish-mosh of uninspiring designs. I actually went to CompUsa to see the 1700 and 3700 series and all I have to say is that they are pure, unadulterated JUNK!!! :!:

And, btw, what's all this garbage about including both CF and SD cards? If you have a device with BT and WiFi built in, the need for CF is lessened. Not at all to say that there shouldn't be devices that have CF, but likewise, there should be smaller (and lighter) devices that only have an SD slot. That was the beauty of HP's prior lineup, if you needed a small-ish device to support the CF stuff you wanted or needed, you could get a 2200. If couldn't care less about CF perhipherals, you could go even smaller and get a 1900, if you needed wireless the 4100 was there to fit the bill.

That being said, I join the "rest of us" that will probably be keeping our devices longer than we would normally, given that a device in the market met 90% (+-) the features we deemed important.

For myself, it's power (speed), BT and WiFi capable, and EXTREME pocketability. Right now, only the 4100 series fits the bill.

[Mark Johnson]

it's kinda scary that so many of us feel this way...

It's us gotta have it now guys that drive stuff.


You're completely right about this. When even the earliest of early adopters like us can go YEARS without seeing anything on the market worth upgrading to, the industry is in serious trouble. I keep wondering how I've gone from churning through a unit every six months to having an 1910 for 22 months now! I've NEVER even remotely held onto a unit this long before. I've always been the guy running around town two days before the official release date of the next series trying to find an salesdrone that didn't know the unit were embargoed until the release and would sell me one accidentally. I've always been like some kind of technology crack-head trying to get a PPC fix a couple times a year. The OEM put me on a cold-turkey program in December of 2002, and I quite sad to say, it's been pretty effective. I'm not feeling that "gotta spend the cash" itch I used to at all anymore.

What's sad is that the formula for getting cash out of the hand of a junkie like me has always been incredilbly simple. If you look at my SIG and the devices I've owned, the rule is:

"If you make a PPC smaller and/or lighter than the one he now has in his pocket, he WILL buy it the day he sees it."

I had only owned my e310 for about 90 days when I saw the 1910 and upgraded. Smaller. Lighter. Sold. End of discussion.

All the debate over flipcover/no-flipcover, dual-slot/single-slot, BT-only/BT-andWi-Fi, etc. is interesting but a distraction. HP has brought out a dizzying array of different models this year, but the recurring theme is that ALL of them are bigger and heavier than my 1910. As far as I'm concerned, the pinnacle of PPC development occured in December of 2002 and I'm still waiting for an improvement.

[Jason Lee]

Maybe as the PDA market has matured so have we...? Maybe we are finnally building up a tolerance to the "crack". :?
That maybe the case for some. One reason I kinda don't want a new PPC is that I know the 67+ apps I have installed and configured on my PPC work as is. It used to be that it was a horrid pain to rebuild my desktop pc. All my data, my programs.. argh. But as time has passed my PPC is now truly the center of my computing universe. Out of my 2 desktops and 1 laptop all my data is on an external hard drive. I could rebuild anyone of them with out much fuss. But my PPC has all my financial data, contacts, calendar... All my personal data, music, pictures... I do most of my email from my ppc now as well. It is my primary computer. Maybe because of this I have taken a more conservative approach to getting my upgrade fix.. *twitches* :mrgreen:

I have never used more than one PDA at a time, I have always passed my old one on to a family member or something. But now for the first time I am actually considering using more than one PPC. With the introduction of all these new PPC Phone Editions and even the MS Smart Phones, and this huge selection of PPCs in general, I think there may be too many choices on the market. I think one reason it has been easier for me to jump to a new PDA is that I really didn't have anyother choice. Here are the features that I require and this is the only PPC on the market that fits that bill. But now so many of this plethora of new PPCs are soo close to fitting that bill but none do.

Soo much confusion... :)
Sorry if this doesn't make any sence.. sometimes i like to think with my keyboard. :wink: Just thought i'd share my PDA despair. *giggle* (hey that rymes.... )

[carphead]

I’m disappointed by the new HP line up. I'm looking for a new ppc I'm certain it won't be a hp. This is coming from somebody who loves his 2215.

None of these machines makes me want to rush out and buy one. Hp have sold the ipaq brand a fast one and it's lost it's magic. Sorry no more Ipaq's for me, well not this time :)

Only one VGA machine turely kills it for me.

[Gen-M]

I've given my iPaq3650 to my wife. I'm still using my hp1910 for PIM. I use an e740 for ebooks (jogdial) and occasional web browsing, and experimentation with USB Host. My iPaq3850 is still going, but the SD slot has stopped recognizing cards initialized on the other PPCs, so I can't transfer files from my 5gig PCMCIA card/Expansion Pack to SD for use in my other PPCs.

I have been tempted to get a 1945 for Bluetooth and SDIO as a replacement for my 1910, but can't justify $200+ just for those enhancements. I can't justify $500+ for VGA.

I am looking seriously at the OQO as my next upgrade.

If I'm going to spend the money, I'm going to get real Word, Excel, Powerpoint and the ability to run my work programs. (Not to mention WVGA and enough storage for my emails and my library).

Four years of waiting for PocketPC/Windows Mobile to provide the utility I need has me willing to walk away. If PPC vendors (Hardware and Microsoft) won't provide the functionality that I need in a package I can live with, then I will move to a platform that will.

[alexm]

I’m disappointed by the new HP line up. I'm looking for a new ppc I'm certain it won't be a hp...

Unfortunately, I have to agree with most of you. I myself is a ppcpe - and for me ppc is for quite some time is a cetral point of getting information - any question I ask myself - I go into ppc and check.
And the latest addition to ppcpe from HP is just a shame... Let's all hope that HP will consider costomers feedback and make some changes in future releases.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Maybe as the PDA market has matured so have we...? Maybe we are finnally building up a tolerance to the "crack". :?

I know the feeling. :? Hey, I'm still on my X5! :lol: I am/was/will be? looking forward to a new VGA device. But......

I have never used more than one PDA at a time, I have always passed my old one on to a family member or something. But now for the first time I am actually considering using more than one PPC. With the introduction of all these new PPC Phone Editions and even the MS Smart Phones, and this huge selection of PPCs in general, I think there may be too many choices on the market. I think one reason it has been easier for me to jump to a new PDA is that I really didn't have anyother choice.

Yes, I have been thinking about that as well. Having a larger VGA PPC and a QVGA PPC phone, or even .... a MS smartphone. 8O

Here are the features that I require and this is the only PPC on the market that fits that bill. But now so many of this plethora of new PPCs are soo close to fitting that bill but none do.

Sooooooo close. But sooooooo far. :?

Soo much confusion... :)
Sorry if this doesn't make any sence.. sometimes i like to think with my keyboard. :wink: Just thought i'd share my PDA despair. *giggle* (hey that rymes.... )

No probs. I know where you're coming from and from the rest of the post, so do many others. :wink:

[danmanmayer]

I dont think that they can make enough profit off each device and give it the support it deserves. Slow down make less devices but make them better. There are some serious flaws with every HP model out consolidate down to a few and actually listen to the users and fix the problem and release a new version of an old model based on what everyone one wanted. Why are they continually making up there own completely brand new design that will always have first generation problems. Get on a line and listen to people stick with it and you will make the best pocket pc out there...

now who's with me?

[gorkon280]

Now if HP would just make one that has all the 3700 and 4700 option all in one.. Dual slot, vga, touch pad, dual wireless, 128 lots of RAM and ROM, and all those cool media features (actually only nevo is needed, the server stuff and the camera would be really nice though.) oh and some usb host would be nice too... ;)

Both devices are sooo close to what I want but neither is exactly right... I think this may hurt them a bit. a whole lot of almost there devices that everyone is gonna hold off on until someone combinds the features they want.

USB Host is nice, but what I would wish is a standard mini-usb b connector instead of proprietary sync connectors. I saw a Motorola Cell phone with that for the data cable....I can get these cables for 3-5 bucks! Good job Motorola! Now HP, Dell....etc....iuse one of these and we don't have to have a cradle....if we don't want one and we'll always be able to use the same cable. This is my beef right now because I just picked up a Audiovox CDM9900 (just came out like a week or two ago on VzW). I am loving it but I want a data cable for getting the pics off and putting custom wall papers on and syncing and VzW is charging 40 dollars for the KIT! I am tired of proprietary cables for syncing devices. Take a hint from Creative (Nomad Zen USB 2.0), Motorola, Apple.....


Use standard cables. It's cheaper for us all.

[mcsouth]

The new iPaq 6315 is the only unit that I "get" - I understand their approach, the time involved, and some of the desisions made (no 2003SE). However, I have no understanding of the other models in their line-up - they seem to be random, uninspired, bland - no real attempt (beyond the multimedia approach) at any originality. Personally, I was hoping for an iPaq 4100 format with a VGA screen, 128MB RAM, and 2003SE - the Wi-Fi could stay at B, although G would have been nice also (but probably unnecessary given the file sizes required - even streaming video sufficient for the VGA screen could probably be done over a B connection.

Instead, I don't have that option, at least from HP. While I have some interest in upgrading from my iPaq 1945, their is nothing in HP's current lineup that I have any interest in - and that includes the 4705 - it does not fit my personal requirements.

Now if Dell bumped the X30 with a VGA screen, they might have one buyer (although I still vastly prefer iPaq 1900/4100 form factor)......

[webagogue]

I probably won't upgrade my 4150 until something with the same form factor and VGA arrives. Once you've used the 19xx/41xx series, everything else feels like a brick!

[twalk]

So lets see here, HP is dumping out a lot of overpriced junk, P1 just threw out the "mid-range" T5 in their top-end line and price and still won't do wifi, and Dell doesn't have an original thought in their entire company, but they're cheap.

Does that about round it out?

A month ago I went out and got a fugitsu P1120. With the extended battery, it's 2.5 lbs, lasts 9 hours, you can touch type (barely) on it, run XP, get 10X (at least) as much done on it, and all for just 2X the cost of a high end PPC. After going through 5 Palms and 3 PPCs, it's the best money I've ever spent.

I still use PDAs, but...

[Mark Johnson]

I have been tempted to get a 1945 for Bluetooth and SDIO as a replacement for my 1910, but can't justify $200+ just for those enhancements. I can't justify $500+ for VGA.

If I'm going to spend the money, I'm going to get real Word, Excel, Powerpoint and the ability to run my work programs...

Four years of waiting for PocketPC/Windows Mobile to provide the utility I need has me willing to walk away.

You are dead-on right Gen-M! I *used* to feel a true "platform enthusiasm" and/or some strong preference for WindowsCE/PocketPC specifically. At the beginning of Microsoft's "pocket windows" projects (Pegasus, Jupiter, Palm-SizePC, even early PPC) I was still suckered into thinking MS was working to bring me a real portable "PC" by which I mean that I believed I'd have realtively seemless access to desktop NATIVE format files (i.e. REAL .doc, .xls, .mdb, etc.)

Microsoft has made it abundantly clear they only want the PPC to be the "dumb little brother" of a "real" desktop. (Read that as: "There's no way on earth we will ever voluntarily allow the PPC to even get close to the functionality of a laptop. We will always ensure you buy a WindowsCE license/device as a "partner" to a WindowsXP/desktop."

Ergo, no bluetooth HID support, no Pocket Access at all, Pocket Word and Pocket Excel badly supporting real .doc or .xls, defaulting to "dumbed-down" formats instead.

MS flatly REFUSES to support the sort of "keep all my .doc, .xls, .mdb files on a 1GB SD card and open/edit on either PPC or desktop at will" universe we all had hoped for. We're stuck with activestink and a cradle and told to like it. There is absolutely NO reason to maintain a "platform loyalty" in this situation - if I have to ActiveSync my contacts from Outlook to PPC, I might as well HotSync from Outlook to Palm.

Platform is irrelevant, applications are even (largely) irrelevant, file format support is vital, and MS refuses to bring that to the table to keep PPC from "maturing" into a real threat to WindowsXP sales.