I knew they wouldn't catch it.

[JackTheTripper]

The Genesis return capsule crashed in the desert on Wednesday after its parachutes failed to deploy. The craft missed a mid-air retrieval meant to save the spacecraft from impacting the Earth.

"... the Genesis capsule hit the ground at about 100 mph."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/08/genesis.entry.cnn/index.html

[Jon Westfall]

ouch

[JackTheTripper]

ouch

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040908/capt.dn40109081620.genesis_crash_dn401.jpg

Yup!

[Yogyakarta]

Before the "uh oh, there go those idiots at NASA again!" posts start popping up, please allow me to give you a first-person perspective on this disaster.

I was part of the mission operations team for this spacecraft, and I put in a 12-hour shift last night and this morning working the final release of the capsule. Remember, a mission like this isn't just about NASA throwing money around. There were a lot of very good engineers working this mission, people I work with on a day to day basis.

The Sample Return Capsule release went flawlessly this morning. From the tracking stations that kept us in communication with Genesis to the individual engineers working different spacecraft systems, we'd all invested countless hours of effort trying to make this work. It could end up being a small, seemingly insignificant problem that prevented the drogue chute and parafoil from deploying. It doesn't mean, however, that NASA or Lockheed-Martin are a bunch of idiots! Like any human endeavour, this one was undertaken with the very real possibility that things might go wrong. People would have started the naysaying had one or both of the Mars rovers failed to reach the surface of Mars intact and functional. After all, it happened to the British Beagle 2 lander back in December.

It's easy to laugh or mock when something like this happens, but imagine how my Genesis teammates and I feel watching all of our work end up like this. How would you feel if years of your hard work were now laying smashed and half buried in the Utah desert? This isn't about bumbling NASA bureaucrats, it's about engineers, pilots, and scientists who did their jobs, and did them well.

The spacecraft bus which carried the Sample Return Capsule is still alive and functional. I have to go into work tomorrow and work with an empty spacecraft bus knowing that this has happened.

Sad! Sad, indeed!

Paul

[JackTheTripper]

Paul,

I'm very sorry to see all this work go to waste. (Well hopefully not. I hope they can salvage something.) Anyway, I'm very interested in space exploration and followed the mars rovers closely. Ask anyone here. I did not mean to imply NASA or anyone else "are a bunch of idiots." I never said that. One person replied with "Ouch" which does not imply anything either. All I meant to imply was catching a pod dangling from a parachute dropped from a plane is much different from catching a pod that has just come from hundreds of thousands of miles away at 25,000 miles per hour, hit's a planets atmosphere and slows to a 5 MPH decent..... then trying to figure out where it's going to be and catch it.

I respect the work NASA and others do and understand that not every mission is going to be successful.


So if you happen to know, how accurate were they with the entry/capture point? How far off were they? If the parachutes had opened would they have been able to retrieve it?

[Don Tolson]

...and I'd like to add, thank goodness the guidance systems didn't fail! Otherwise, the 'drop' could have been in the middle of an inhabited area!

[Kati Compton]

I would venture to say that most people here would not say that NASA are idiots, or that this problem is indicative of anything. A lot of people here, however, are interested in space, and that's why Jack posted. I think most people's reactions would parallel Jack's and mine, which is that we are sorry to see such a big and interesting endeavor end in this manner. It is disappointing because of the loss of scientific information, not disappointing because we think NASA did anything wrong.

[Underwater Mike]

Ditto on Kati's comments. I was just showing my kids some info about this the other day and told them that we'd prolly see some cool "grab" video on the news. It will be interesting to see how they manage to account for the contamination and continue on with analysis, as the AP account said would be done.

That said, with budgets for space science so tight, it kills me to see a $260-odd million project bite the dust, as it were. 0X

[ironguy]

Hi Paul,
We were slightly horrified to watch the video this morning. It's an awful feeling knowing that the many hours you spent doing something important may well be for naught.

As an aside, we've entered science mode on Gravity Probe and things have settled down greatly.

Ex-roomie,
Dave

For the rest, Paul and I were business roomies at a large aerospace company before he moved to Colorado.

[Brad Adrian]

I was part of the mission operations team for this spacecraft...
WOW! I can't believe that somebody from NASA mission operations visits this site and is posting here!
WOW!

All I can say is, "WOW!"

Thanks, Yogyakarta, for hanging out here with us!

[Yogyakarta]

I apologise if the tone of my earlier message appeared to be accusatory in any way. It certainly wasn't meant to be. Perhaps I'm a little too defensive after today's events. It's just that at some non-PPC discussion boards I've visited today I've already seen those "here goes dumb NASA again!" sort of comments. I will say that I haven't seen that sentiment expressed here today. I was simply afraid that those kind of comments would be inevitable. The people who frequent this board, I find, are far more understanding and accepting of the risks of technology in general and space travel in particular. Kindred spirits even!

I've only been working on Genesis since last October, but some engineers I work with have been with the program since it was first proposed years ago. They're the ones really hurting today. There are some I work with who also worked on the doomed Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars Polar Lander missions. This has dredged up all sorts of sad memories for them.

Still, we have Stardust. We'll get that one right!

Paul

[Yogyakarta]

I was part of the mission operations team for this spacecraft...
WOW! I can't believe that somebody from NASA mission operations visits this site and is posting here!
WOW!

All I can say is, "WOW!"

Thanks, Yogyakarta, for hanging out here with us!

I dig hanging out with youse guys! Ironguy is a NASA mission operations type too, and a darn good one at that!

Paul

[maximus]

Well, now that we have an insider at NASA, tell us the kind of PDAs and special gadgets that are being used at NASA. NASA dudes get all the cool gadgets, right ? :mrgreen:

Anyway, goodluck with the stardust ! :)

[Jon Westfall]

Just to clarify my "ouch" - i did not mean NASA was hurt by it (i.e. deserving of ridicule) but that it (or maybe this guy riding in it : 0X ) would say ouch :mrgreen:

[Steven Cedrone]

We love NASA here! Heck, we had a huge thread about the Mars Rovers that eventually had to be abondoned because it looked as if the the little guys were going to last forever! :wink: I still can't believe they are chugging along continueing on their extended mission. Talk about getting your money's worth! So, what do you NASA guys think about the X-Prize? :wink: I think two teams are going to try for it next month...

Steve

[Darius Wey]

My heart goes out to the team. Years of work in a pile of rubble. I know what it's like to spend heaps of time on a project only to have it go up in flames. :cry:

All the best for your future projects.

[Brad Adrian]

So, you NASA guys make my job seem pretty mundane (IT research and consulting for a large firm). What other cool jobs do you other readers have?

[And *try* not to stretch the truth TOO much!]

[Yogyakarta]

So, you NASA guys make my job seem pretty mundane (IT research and consulting for a large firm). What other cool jobs do you other readers have?

[And *try* not to stretch the truth TOO much!]

Pssssst! Ironguy, Do we dare tell 'em that our jobs are a lot like Homer Simpson's at the power plant? :wink:

In all seriousness though, our jobs run the gamut of boredom to excitement. Mostly boring, but occasionally exciting. Last night, during the capsule release, it was exciting. There were all sorts of press people there with their goofy announcer-type voices. Then there are the lows, like what happened in the Utah desert this morning. :(

Paul

[Yogyakarta]

We love NASA here! Heck, we had a huge thread about the Mars Rovers that eventually had to be abondoned because it looked as if the the little guys were going to last forever! :wink: I still can't believe they are chugging along continueing on their extended mission. Talk about getting your money's worth! So, what do you NASA guys think about the X-Prize? :wink: I think two teams are going to try for it next month...

Steve

Speaking of the Mars Rovers, one of the other spacecraft I work on, Mars Odyssey, is the primary communications means for both of them. Approximately 85% of all data received from Spirit and Opportunity have come down via Odyssey. About 4 times a day, Odyssey passes over each of the rovers, and, if scheduled, Odyssey will initiate a UHF communications session whereby the rover dumps its data and Odyssey relays it back to Earth.

Extended mission?! Before it's demise early last year, I worked on the Pioneer 10 spacecraft project. Pioneer 10 lasted 29 years past its primary mission! Pioneer 6, launched on December 19, 1965 is still operational, although NASA hasn't contacted it in a couple of years.

Hey! How about a UHF capable PPC???

[ironguy]

If you guys wanna see what I do, head over to http://einstein.stanford.edu. Some of the stuff there will blow your mind. But like Paul, er, uh, Yogyakarta said, it's really more like Homer's job.

Although, this morning I was really craving a doughnut, but did anyone bring any? No. I had to buy expensive Pop-Tarts out of the machine.

As far as cool machines at NASA... well, it is government. Money matters. The room I'm sitting in right now has 10 Sun workstations, 4 Sun Blade workstations, 3 SGI workstations, and 1, yes, one, PC... and I'm hogging it! Cool. 8)

The neat thing is that everyone that works here is nerdy, geeky or a combination of the two. Including me. Many people own Pocket PCs as well as a few with Palm devices. Sci-Fi movies and books are often the topic of conversation as well as an occasional D&D foray.

Well, gotta go to a meeting. ZZZzzzzzz.....

[dean_shan]

As far as cool machines at NASA... well, it is government. Money matters. The room I'm sitting in right now has 10 Sun workstations, 4 Sun Blade workstations, 3 SGI workstations, and 1, yes, one, PC... and I'm hogging it! Cool. 8)

:werenotworthy:

[PetiteFlower]

Well my job is REALLY mundane I don't even work in technology! But I agree it's amazingly cool that such smart, interesting, geeky people are in our midst :)

And hey, your work conversations sound a lot like the ones my friends and I have most of the time :) All hail the geeks! The geeks will take over the world!

[JackTheTripper]

Thanks for the explanation Paul. I figured you'd been hearing/reading stuff about it. I just want you to know I also realize the title of my thread may have contributed to it and I apologize. I really didn't mean anything by it. Sorry.

[Yogyakarta]

Although, this morning I was really craving a doughnut, but did anyone bring any? No. I had to buy expensive Pop-Tarts out of the machine.

That vending machine has the highest prices of any I've ever come across! :evil:

Where I work, Genesis has become known as the junk food project. Every time we have some special activity going on, such as a trajectory correction maneuver, somebody brings in treats. The last few months, as the Genesis team feverishly prepared for Earth return, we witnessed what I called "the Genesis effect" (i.e., weight gain from eating way too much junk food!). <where's an emoticon for gluttony when you need one?>

Paul

[KimVette]

Paul,

(snip)

I respect the work NASA and others do and understand that not every mission is going to be successful.


So if you happen to know, how accurate were they with the entry/capture point? How far off were they? If the parachutes had opened would they have been able to retrieve it?

A few thinks:

NASA engineers are not idiots. In fact some are extremely bright and warned BEFOREHAND about booster rocket O-rings prior to the Challenger explosion, and warned BEFOREHAND about the styrofoam being a potential risk, and with that chunk that hit the Columbia during takeoff, that it very likely did damage the wing. Nasa management deemed the risks to be negligible and actually doing something proactive to be too expensive and too risky.

Too expensive? In my humble opinion, the Columbia should have been flown from airshow to airshow on the 747, showing off the ground-breaking reusable spacecraft, and then showcased in the Smithsonian. It's a shame that such a historical aircraft was doomed by knuckleheads in management when engineers were blowing whistles and getting fired for their efforts, for being troublemakers. The total loss cost more than any attempt at repair or the extremely minor payload capacity for the kit would have cost. It is disgusting. NASA's engineers could have designed a way, extremely rapidly, to rescue the damaged shuttle, if given the green light; I am convinced of it.

I'd love to see a real engineer with a real vision run NASA.

[ironguy]

KimVette hit the nail on the head. I can't tell you how many times we've been pushed to do something on our spacecraft because a Prgram Manager needed to meet a deadline or was purposefully oblivious to the technical dangers involved.

Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead! Good way to get yourself torpedo'ed.

That said, there are some cooler heads around - not all the management is messed up. In fact, we only hear about the times when they do screw up and almost never about the times they save the bacon. My program, Gravity Probe B, was under the Congressional financial gun 7 different times (it's been in the works since 1964!). In addition to the Principal Investigator, several NASA upper bigheads fought for the program. Even now, there are several NASA managers that push to consider all aspects of a plan and hang the cost (to a point).

So I guess it's like everywhere. The good go unrewarded and the bad make the front page!

[Yogyakarta]

So if you happen to know, how accurate were they with the entry/capture point? How far off were they? If the parachutes had opened would they have been able to retrieve it?

Sorry, I forgot to address these questions. As far as targeting, the navigation and attitude control teams were right on the money. Without the parachute deployment, we impacted just slightly southeast of dead center of the landing ellipse. And had the parachutes deployed, it would have drifted a little further southeast. I have no doubt though that the helicopter crew would have snagged it. Those guys are really good pilots.

Paul

[ironguy]

Hey Yogy,
Better be careful! You're up to 18 posts in 14 months! You'll lose your lurker title!

What project ya gonna work on now?

[Yogyakarta]

Hey Yogy,
Better be careful! You're up to 18 posts in 14 months! You'll lose your lurker title!

What project ya gonna work on now?

:lol: Yeah, I've become quite the talker, eh?

Genesis is just one of the projects I work on. I also work on Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and Stardust. Next year our Mission Support Area will support the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, and in 2007, the Phoenix Mars lander. And, the spacecraft bus for Genesis still lives. It has a couple of solar wind monitoring instruments onboard, so it could concievably support an extended mission.

Paul

[ironguy]

Who knows? Maybe next year when GPB poops its last Helium I'll come out there. So you need to get into a position to hire me at an extraordinary rate of pay.

Oh.. never mind, gov't contract. I should just be thankful I have a job!

[Jereboam]

I'd like to echo the others and say how amazing it is to have somebody from NASA right here in the forum. I, for one, was guilty of seeing this on the news and letting the soundbites just flash by me. It seems sometimes that unless we can compress an event into a newsworthy few minutes it doesn't deserve our attention - and we completely miss the real story.

Just a few quick questions though, for you Paul - film capsules were ejected from "spy" satellites on a regular basis in the 60s/70s (I could look up the exact dates but don't know off the top of my head, but the program was called Corona) and snagged in midair by Herky-birds. I am sure there were loads of failures in the beginning, but it must have worked more often than not...so -

1. Did you draw down on the Corona experiences/test data?
2. Why did you decide to use a chopper instead of fixed wing?
3. Why didn't you just use a parachute-only system?

I suppose I could Google some of this but it's much more fun asking you, if you don't mind... ;)

Thanks, J'bm

[Steven Cedrone]

Why didn't you just use a parachute-only system?

While we wait for the official answer, I'll take a guess: They didn't want it to hit the ground (or anything else for that matter) that could possibly "contaminate" the experiment...

Steve

[JackTheTripper]

Yup, report I read said that any bump, even a parachute assisted landing, could dislodge the particles from the collection pannels. Imagine you have a ping pong paddle covered with double stick tape and stick a bunch of ping pong balls to it. Now, drop it on the floor from about 3 feet up. Some stay put but some are going to fall off. They wanted to assure they save as many as possible.

[Yogyakarta]

1. Did you draw down on the Corona experiences/test data?
2. Why did you decide to use a chopper instead of fixed wing?
3. Why didn't you just use a parachute-only system?

I suppose I could Google some of this but it's much more fun asking you, if you don't mind... ;)

Thanks, J'bm

In all honesty, I'm not really qualified to answer any of these questions with a reasonable degree of competence. However, I will tell you what I know.

1. That is something I don't have first-hand knowledge of. There was a separate team working strictly on recovery operations, so I would have to ask them if that experience was taken into account. Unfortunately, the members of that team are kinda busy right now. My assumption is that the Corona experience was certainly taken into account.

2. The reasoning behind using a chopper vs. a fixed-wing aircraft is that a chopper could recover quickly from a miss, whereas a fixed-wing aircraft would take much longer to get back into position to make another attempt. And when you consider that a parachute-borne capsule would still be descending while the aircraft is lining up to make another attempt, speed would be of the essence.

3. A parachute only system (like Stardust's) was not considered because of the fragility of the payload. It was feared that even a minor bump on landing would damage the collection arrays. Stardust's capsule, which was constructed to be more rugged than Genesis's, will land at a speed of 10 mph. Even that speed was considered too risky for the Genesis payload.

[maximus]

Genesis is just one of the projects I work on. I also work on Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and Stardust. Next year our Mission Support Area will support the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, and in 2007, the Phoenix Mars lander. And, the spacecraft bus for Genesis still lives. It has a couple of solar wind monitoring instruments onboard, so it could concievably support an extended mission.
Paul

Just curious, dont you guys at NASA have somekind of NDAs ? We dont want you to get into trouble for sharing confidential stuffs...

[Yogyakarta]

Genesis is just one of the projects I work on. I also work on Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and Stardust. Next year our Mission Support Area will support the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, and in 2007, the Phoenix Mars lander. And, the spacecraft bus for Genesis still lives. It has a couple of solar wind monitoring instruments onboard, so it could concievably support an extended mission.
Paul

Just curious, dont you guys at NASA have somekind of NDAs ? We dont want you to get into trouble for sharing confidential stuffs...

I actually work for a contractor, but everything I've said here in this forum is public domain information (i.e., you could get the same info. from space.com, spaceflightnow.com, or nasawatch.com). I can't talk about projects in the proposal stages though. I'm also not allowed to speculate on or share information in public regarding the cause(s) of the Genesis mishap.

So, basically, I'm in the clear to share my NASA McNuggets with y'all. 8)

[rocky_raher]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040908/capt.dn40109081620.genesis_crash_dn401.jpg


Does this remind anyone besides me of the opening sequence of the original "Tomb Raider"??