Geographic Bigotry

[gorgoroth]

My god! And this city is so much close to any american or european city. Nothing exotic there, except if you go 500 miles up north or south...
It remind me the beginning of 24 (first season). The first scene is supposed to happen in kuala lumpur, but the scene is more like a 1950 vietnam with smoke and whore crossing the streets than the actual city.

[bjornkeizers]

Americans usually can't find a certain part of their anatomy without a map and a flashlight; so that's hardly surprising.

I was once talking to a friend of mine, who works as an engineer building bridges and such in the US - so he's by no means stupid - and he thought we had lots of mountains and were landlocked :roll: He also thought Switzerland had nice sunny beaches :roll:

Three cheers for that fabulous american education system. 8O

I for one *can* find Kuala Lumpur on a map - I have lots of friends all over the globe, including some in Kuala Lumpur.

[JA]

Americans usually can't find a certain part of their anatomy without a map and a flashlight; so that's hardly surprising.

I was once talking to a friend of mine, who works as an engineer building bridges and such in the US - so he's by no means stupid - and he thought we had lots of mountains and were landlocked :roll: He also thought Switzerland had nice sunny beaches :roll:

Three cheers for that fabulous american education system. 8O

I for one *can* find Kuala Lumpur on a map - I have lots of friends all over the globe, including some in Kuala Lumpur.

Hey thanks for that great generalization buddy! :roll: I find it hard to believe you have any friends! JA

[Darius Wey]

People...keep the posts friendly. We don't want another inevitable HOFS move do we?

[Steven Cedrone]

Drop the insults folks! Listen to the green, bouncing, dancing, alien thing! :wink:

Steve

[Sven Johannsen]

Three cheers for that fabulous american education system.

Come on, how are we supposed to keep up. You get off the plane in the Netherlands, and see a sign that says Welcome to Holland, but everyone speaks Dutch. :wink:

No apologies here, but it is sometimes embarrassing how little of the world many Americans, and by that I mean USans, understand. Part of the issue may be that we are really not exposed to the diversity you are in Europe. You can drive a couple of hours and see a couple of countries in some cases. I can't even get out of my state, and it's not a big one.

[Darius Wey]

Drop the insults folks! Listen to the green, bouncing, dancing, alien thing! :wink:

Steve

Disclaimer: I still have no idea what that thing is, and is in no way a visual representation of my true self. :P

[Darius Wey]

Come on, how are we supposed to keep up. You get off the plane in the Netherlands, and see a sign that says Welcome to Holland, but everyone speaks Dutch. :wink:

No apologies here, but it is sometimes embarrassing how little of the world many Americans, and by that I mean USans, understand. Part of the issue may be that we are really not exposed to the diversity you are in Europe. You can drive a couple of hours and see a couple of countries in some cases. I can't even get out of my state, and it's not a big one.

I believe everyone here should look on the broad scale of things. Here we are...a PPC community. If my memory serves me correctly, we had one of those "which country are you from" topics, and it showed that our PPC community is indeed a diverse one. We have people from all across the world, speaking a wide range of languages.

People in the US may not know everything about Europe, and people in Europe may not know everything about the US. This is where we appreciate each other and use such curiousity to help us appreciate one another and learn more about the diverse nature of the people in our community.

This program (going back on topic for a change) is a nice example for people to explore countries they didn't know a thing about, and appreciate what is out there in the world. Instead of bagging a program for its function, there are many people out there who consider it useful.

So instead of bagging one another because we're from different countries, why can't we, for a change, appreciate each other and accept that we do have our differences and we should be interested, rather than disinterested. This is how wars start after all right? :wink:

[Steven Cedrone]

I believe everyone here... <snip, snip, snippity-snip>

:cry: :grouphug:

Great speech! If we ever meet, I'll buy you a :beer:

:wink:

Steve

[Darius Wey]

I believe everyone here... <snip, snip, snippity-snip>

:cry: :grouphug:

Great speech! If we ever meet, I'll buy you a :beer:

:wink:

Steve

Oooh... :beer: / I'll hold you up to that. :D Haha.

[bjornkeizers]

Part of the issue may be that we are really not exposed to the diversity you are in Europe. You can drive a couple of hours and see a couple of countries in some cases. I can't even get out of my state, and it's not a big one.

The US is simply too big and isolated. In three hours, I'm at the other side of my country. In a day, I can reach belgium, germany, france, spain, italy, eastern europe.... there's a dozen countrys less then a day's drive from my house.

In the US, you can drive for days and still only cross one two or states, let alone your entire country. There's hardly any reason for you to leave your state, let alone leave the country, so it's no wonder you don't get exposed to other countrys.

Still, part of it *is* education. Here in Holland, we have very extensive geography classes. I can find all states on a blind map, but I don't think many people in the US could find europe, let alone my country.

[kosmicki]

In the US, you can drive for days and still only cross one two or states, let alone your entire country. There's hardly any reason for you to leave your state, let alone leave the country, so it's no wonder you don't get exposed to other countrys.

Still, part of it *is* education. Here in Holland, we have very extensive geography classes. I can find all states on a blind map, but I don't think many people in the US could find europe, let alone my country.

Time to drive from Arizona to Washington DC: 2.5 days. Thats WITH overnight stops before you think its nonstop ;)

Personally your country is easy to find for me, my parents were in the US Air Force stationed in the Netherlands. (around '83)

I don't think I would do terribly well on a blind map, but I can locate any country in a few seconds knowing its general location. I have to agree with you on not being exposed to other countries, there is no 'need' for it so why teach it? seems to be the attitude.

Somewhat on topic, this program seems it might be useful for someone using GPS or something of the sort. Where you might need another reference.

[dma1965]

Americans usually can't find a certain part of their anatomy without a map and a flashlight; so that's hardly surprising.

I was once talking to a friend of mine, who works as an engineer building bridges and such in the US - so he's by no means stupid - and he thought we had lots of mountains and were landlocked :roll: He also thought Switzerland had nice sunny beaches :roll:

Three cheers for that fabulous american education system. 8O

I for one *can* find Kuala Lumpur on a map - I have lots of friends all over the globe, including some in Kuala Lumpur.

Gee, and I guess all Swiss people walk around with funny hats and hunks of cheese hanging off of red handled knives. I guess all Americans must have no clue about geography becuase your one engineer friend was mistaken. I guess all Americans must have no idea what is going on in the world, because your information source just says its so. Get a clue, buddy. I find your statements HIGHLY offensive. :evil:

[bjornkeizers]

I find your statements HIGHLY offensive. :evil:

I don't care whether or not you find them offensive - it's the truth. I know this not only from personal experience, but there have been numerous scientific studys.

One such was the 2002 NG-Roper Geographic Literacy study (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/download/RoperSurvey.pdf)

Here's a CNN link (http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/index.html)

Here are some results:



* Young Americans show weak performance with regard to the Middle East and Asia. Despite
the countries almost daily presence in the news and the potential impact of current conflicts
on everyone s lives, only one in seven can find Iraq (13%) or Iran (13%) on a map of Middle
East/Asia. On average, fewer than one-fifth of all young adults worldwide could identify Iraq
on a Middle East/Asia map.

* On average, young adults in other countries in the study were better able to locate other
European countries than American young adults are to locate U.S. states.

* The surveyed Americans got a "D," with an average of 23 correct answers. Mexico ranked last with an average score of 21, just three points from a failing grade.

* When asked to find 10 specific states on a map of the United States, only California and Texas could be located by a large majority of those surveyed. Both states were correctly located by 89 percent of the participants. Only 51 percent could find New York, the nation's third most populous state.

* On a world map, Americans could find on average only seven of 16 countries in the quiz. Only 89 percent of the Americans surveyed could find their own country on the map.



11 percent of you can't even find your own country, let alone your state on a map! But:


Thirty-four percent of the young Americans knew that the island used on last season's "Survivor" show was located in the South Pacific, but only 30 percent could locate the state of New Jersey on a map. The "Survivor" show's location was the Marquesas Islands in the eastern South Pacific.


What conclusion would you like me to draw here? I *can* find all your states on a blind map - or at least more then two or three!

*hands dma1965 the flashlight and map*

[Darius Wey]

bjornkeizers, while what you say may have some sort of merit, there is a major fallacy in the entire argument. I've had my stint of public health and biostatistics in my medical course, and what applies there, applies to the analysis of this study too.

I'll make quotes from the links you provided.

The National Geographic-Roper 2002 Global Geographic Literacy Survey assesses the
geographic knowledge of young adults ages 18 to 24 in nine countries including the United
States, and 25- to 34-year-olds in the U.S. The research also assesses young adults attitudes
towards the importance of geography and how aware they are of geography in the context of
current events.

First of all, with any study, you focus on three main topics: bias, confounding variables and chance.

Whether the result obtained from this study is actually a true reflection of the variable studied is effectively captured in these three topics.

I failed to see any mention of the variability of the age group targeted. We have a sample of young adults aged between 18 to 24, and 25 to 34. What's there to say that there is not a huge proportion on the lower end of these age-ranges. While the next quote shows proportions, they need to highlight the details of possible extremities in age ranges. You cannot effectively form an argument if the study investigators do not highlight the full details of the selection of their subjects. Also, what sex were the subjects? They composed of people from both sexes, but were there selection biases present in that more of one sex was selected pertaining to a particular age group? The next quote merely says 50% each way, but fail to highlight what age each person was. These things are not highlighted. Note also that those aged between 25-34 were only from the US. Without sampling those people within that age group from other countries, you cannot effectively justify the results without further evidence.

Target Sample
A randomly selected sample was designed in each country to represent the target
population nationally or in selected urban areas, depending on geographic coverage.
In all countries except the U.S.: A total of 300 men and women aged 18 to 24 in every
country with quotas by age group (45% in the 18-20 age group and 55% in the 21-24
age group) and by sex (50% males/50% females). The quotas reflect the structure of the
population in the 18-24 age in all countries.
Additionally, in the U.S.: A total of 800 men and women aged 18 to 34 including:
• 500 young adults aged 18 to 24 with quotas by age group (45% in the 18-20 age
group and 55% in the 21-24 age group) and by sex (50% males/50% females)
• 300 adults aged 25 to 34 with quotas by age group (48% in the 25-29 age group and
52% in the 30-34 age group) and by sex (50% males/50% females)
The assigned quotas reflect the structure of the population in the 18-24 and 25-34 age
groups in all countries.

What randomisation was used in the selection of the subjects? Where were the subjects from? Across the US, you have varying levels of quality of education. By chance, all subjects may have been exposed to lower levels of education. While they state subjects were randomly selected, there is always that chance factor involved.

And there are also other confounding variables that affect this. These things cannot be explored completely, but there may be some variable that affects the accuracy of the results obtained, no matter how well the randomisation process was conducted.

Also, note the sample size. 300 people from each country, with an additional 800 people in the US. What is the population of the countries involved in the studies? It's in the MILLLIONS. An effective study is one that always aims to gather information using the largest sample size as possible. With a small sample size, you again just bring in the chance factor that with minimal subjects, the accuracy of the results may be skewed. I, for one, would not use a sample size of 300 people to accurately judge the standards of people's geographical knowledge of the entire country. The sample size is merely too small to consider the results presented as fact.

A multistage, stratified area probability sample applied down to the Secondary
Sampling Unit (SSU) stage (i.e. street/block group or similar classification) was used
for this research. For the selection of households, interviewers followed randomly
selected, pre-determined interviewing routes with skip intervals. At the household
level, quotas for sex and age were applied for respondent selection.
Interviews in all countries were conducted face-to-face, at respondents homes.

Sure, interviewing is conducted following a strict randomised process. However, blinding of both the investigator and the subject is not seen. The investigators were fully aware of the categorisation of each subject, and there is always an element of interviewing bias involved. Perhaps a better interviewing method could have been used to extract the results more accurately.


Look, there is much more I could talk about, but I don't want to turn this post into a thesis. What I hope to get into your head is that this is a study, and with all studies, you always have factors involved that can skew the results of the study.

Do NOT take any study as fact or fiction. This applies with every other study you come across. I will not willingly read this study and say that "yes, people from the US have a poor education system and that other countries are much smarter". Why? Because I know that it is not something to be taken as fact. The sample size is shockingly small, and there are many chance factors and biases present that make the accuracy of this study even more skewed.


I don't care whether or not you find them offensive - it's the truth. I know this not only from personal experience, but there have been numerous scientific studys.

Personal experience should not be seen as a stepping stone for you to make a judgement on the population of an entire country. And for that matter, nor should a study, for the reasons I've said above.

Trust me, you do not want to make this topic a huge argumentative blowout, because there is not sufficient evidence to support what you're saying. I accept everyone around the world to be different, and yes, while each country may have differing levels of education and some people are more unfortunate than others, it certainly does not justify bagging people and offending them for it. Instead of doing this, you should be supporting them, no matter how different their education conditions are.

[dma1965]

[quote="bjornkeizers"]What conclusion would you like me to draw here? I *can* find all your states on a blind map - or at least more then two or three!
quote]

I guess the conclusion I am drawing is that you are a very arrogant and annoying person with a superiority complex living in a nation best known to the world for cheap whores, potheads, and tulip bulbs. But wait, that would be rude, would it not? I mean, just because you live in a country known for those things, that does not mean its globally true, does it? Oh well, it must be true, I read it somewhere...

:pimp: *Hands bjornkeizers a joint, lighter, and a condom* :rainbowafro: