World Of PPC Reviews HTC's Blue Angel

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.worldofppc.com/HWTests/mdaiii.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.worldofppc.com/HWTests/mdaiii.htm</a><br /><br /></div>Andreas Erle reviews the HTC Blue Angel (otherwise known as the XDA/MDA III) on the German site World of PPC (English translation available <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=mozclient&u=http%3A//www.worldofppc.com/HWTests/mdaiii.htm">here</a>.) While we've seen most of the details before, one bizarre tidbit is the arrangement of the SD slot on the top of the device.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20040823-AndreasXDAIII.jpg" /><br /><br />Yes -- it's backwards. This isn't a major problem for memory, but for things like an SD GPS card it'll cause the antenna to point in the wrong direction. My other nit is the screen is apparently subject to the same yellowing as the iPAQ 193x/4x and 4xxx devices. Fortunately, both are minor, but one sometimes wonders <i>how</i> the OEMs actually test the designs.<br /><br /><b>Update:</b> PPCT member Adamz has figured it out -- the "top half" of the unit, just above the SD card, slides up to allow access to the thumbboard. If there <i>was</i> something protruding, it'd get clipped. I guess it's a reasonable compromise if you consider that fact. ;)

[radioflyer7]

Actually, the label "Pocket PC" in the picture is upside down as well, indicating this actually would be the UP side. The power button, app buttons and the D-pad would therefore be on the top as well.

Not sure if I like that...

[Philip Colmer]

To be fair, the review does state that it should be possible for the socket to be reversed before going into production.

At least, I think that is what it says. The translation had me laughing so much I could barely read the text any more:

In the comparison to the MDAII (in the pictures down and/or left) the Blue fishing rod from the masses is a piece smaller, both more a little highly and (up to the range of the camera) a little more thinly. Only in the width is it kanpp 2 mm more largely. All in all the Blue makes fishing rod more stimmiger thereby subjectively from the proportions. Whom however the MDAII was already too heavy, which will enjoy the Blue fishing rod little
Ah - a new use for my PDA ... fishing :-)

Sorry - didn't want to take this off-topic :mrgreen:.

--Philip

[Fishie]

Nevermind

[foebea]

Actually, the label "Pocket PC" in the picture is upside down as well, indicating this actually would be the UP side. The power button, app buttons and the D-pad would therefore be on the top as well.

Not sure if I like that...

Actually, this is a view of the top. The d-pad type thing is the speaker, and I do not know offhand what the two buttons are, so we can assume the bottom half of the device is as expected, a d-pad type control and maybe 4 buttons.

The point of the wordage used is that the sd card slot is backwards, so when the device is laying flat on a table the sd card will face the table, and so if there is any indicator lights or directional antennae they will be facing the wrong way. :)

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, the label "Pocket PC" in the picture is upside down as well, indicating this actually would be the UP side. The power button, app buttons and the D-pad would therefore be on the top as well.
Actually, this is a view of the top.
Correct -- it's upside-down. Take a look at the other pictures, and you'll get a better idea of the device. ;)

I guess I mean the SD slot is horizontally backwards on the top of the device? It's not too easy to phrase. I edited my post slightly to make it clearer.

--janak

[Jereboam]

Anyone else really liking the idea of that slidey keyboard? And neato blue backlighting.

I wonder how well that connectivity switcher app is going to work...seamless swapover from wifi (home) to GPRS (car/street) to wifi (office) and back again has me drooling.

Apparently the 6xxx is going to have some form of this too.

J'bm

[jpaq]

Janak,

There is the rub. I really don't think the makers of these devices do any real proof of concept or design testing. Yes, we see different preview versions of products that have subtle changes in button color or other things before official release, but I don't think this is functionality testing. I think this is budget testing. What can we do to make this thing cheaper to make.

As far as the engineering of the SD card on this devise, I can see one of three things.
1. This is the cheaper way to make it.
2. The SC card slot did not fit under the speaker when turned the right way.
3. They never tested it and/or didn't care.

Just my $.02. Then again, I haven't had enought coffe yet this morning. I may be a bit negative.....

:morning:

[adamz]

Yes -- it's backwards. This isn't a major problem for memory, but for things like an SD GPS card it'll cause the antenna to point in the wrong direction. My other nit is the screen is apparently subject to the same yellowing as the iPAQ 193x/4x and 4xxx devices. Fortunately, both are minor, but one sometimes wonders how the OEMs actually test the designs.

The reason it's like that is so that you can still slide the keyboard open without banging against an extruded SDIO peripheral dongle.

[Sven Johannsen]

As far as the engineering of the SD card on this devise, I can see one of three things.
1. This is the cheaper way to make it.
2. The SC card slot did not fit under the speaker when turned the right way.
3. They never tested it and/or didn't care.

Just my $.02. Then again, I haven't had enought coffe yet this morning. I may be a bit negative.....

:morning:

Or they figured it didn't matter for memory, Wifi and BT are already built in, they weren't worried about the two people who have SD GPSs, and it'll work fine for the few with SD VGA cards. (What else is there?) So for whatever engineering reason it's turned this way, it shouldn't cause much problem.

[Jereboam]

The reason it's like that is so that you can still slide the keyboard open without banging against an extruded SDIO peripheral dongle.

Ahhhhh....I think we have a winner...

J'bm

[Janak Parekh]

The reason it's like that is so that you can still slide the keyboard open without banging against an extruded SDIO peripheral dongle.
Brilliant! You'll get credit on the frontpage. :D My faith in OEMs is restored. A little. ;)

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

The reason it's like that is so that you can still slide the keyboard open without banging against an extruded SDIO peripheral dongle.

Ahhhhh....I think we have a winner...

J'bm

I think he does win! If you look at the third picture in the article (added below), it appears as if that was probably their reasoning for flipping the slot like that!

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/media/users/238/keyslide.jpg

Steve

[gorkon280]

Hmm...first....there are SD GPS Card's?? I have seen them being said as coming, but in any case, I can't see alot of dongles working too well with the keyboard slid out. One thing is for certain, the back of the device must be flush with the part that goes into the device otherwise for get about using it with the keyboard extended.

Also, as this IS a cellphone as well, what makes you think it doesn't already have a GPS in it? All it takes is for someone to hack into the software a bit and figure out how to make it available to Mapopolis, or whatever map program you use. Nextek akready has a map program on some of their phones. The cariers should want to make this available to the users....unless Microsoft and others have this working in S&T 2005! :) Anyways you only have to worry about ...well...maybe the VGA cards if this is the case. Since this does have WiFi in it, there's no need to worry about that one. I see this sd slot being used for memory.

[Jeff from MS]

One other minor nit...I didn't think it mattered what direction a GPS was pointed since it has no inherent sense of direction, only position. It calculates direction based on movement. However, I wonder if that screen would get in the way of the signal...gotta try it out.

[Ryan Joseph]

Hmm...first....there are SD GPS Card's?? I have seen them being said as coming...

Yes, there are. They're really weird looking and I'd be terrified of snapping it right off, but here's a picture I found of one:

http://www.3cvillage.com/images/gps-sd-501-f.jpg

Back on topic, though, I really can't wait for this device. The keyboard alone has me drooling. :D

[Jereboam]

Also, as this IS a cellphone as well, what makes you think it doesn't already have a GPS in it?

Are you maybe getting confused with GPS (Global Positioning System) and GPRS (General Packet Radio Service)?

Almost all GSM cellphones and carriers support GPRS these days, but for connectivity as supposed to positioning, and certainly you can triangulate reasonably well off the signal towers but not well enough to navigate precisely yet (I think...).

But inbuilt GPS specifically for navigation, I think there has only been one cellphone with it, and I think it was a bit of a flop.

J'bm

[Ryan Joseph]

But inbuilt GPS specifically for navigation

I'm telling you, though, I would drop some serious money for a PPC Phone with built in GPS. I'm working on a review right now of the Navman PiN with a built in GPS receiver. It's one of the sweetest devices I've ever used. If it has the phone built in, I'd buy it in a second.

We'll be there eventually. And I'll be first in line when we get there. :mrgreen:

[Jereboam]

Here is the Garmin (http://www.garmin.com/products/navTalkGSM/) GPS phone. A bit bulky, but quite cool for trekking maybe...

J'bm

[Jereboam]

But inbuilt GPS specifically for navigation

I'm telling you, though, I would drop some serious money for a PPC Phone with built in GPS. I'm working on a review right now of the Navman PiN with a built in GPS receiver. It's one of the sweetest devices I've ever used. If it has the phone built in, I'd buy it in a second.

We'll be there eventually. And I'll be first in line when we get there. :mrgreen:

Nah man. Not if I get there first! ;)

I'll save you one. Look forward to that review by the way...

J'bm

[surur]

You mean like this (http://www.emirate1.com/index.htm)?

http://www.emirate1.com/EMIRATE1_Front.jpg

I thought you were selling your ppcphone?

Surur

[Jereboam]

Link/pic broken for me...

Edit: I take it all back. That's a beast of a machine.

J'bm

[marlof]

On a side path: Surur, that's a really funny screenshot. It appeared on the first leaked pictures of the original iPAQ, long before it was officially announced. Anybody else (besides Ed ;) ) remember that?

[jpaq]

Yes -- it's backwards. This isn't a major problem for memory, but for things like an SD GPS card it'll cause the antenna to point in the wrong direction. My other nit is the screen is apparently subject to the same yellowing as the iPAQ 193x/4x and 4xxx devices. Fortunately, both are minor, but one sometimes wonders how the OEMs actually test the designs.

The reason it's like that is so that you can still slide the keyboard open without banging against an extruded SDIO peripheral dongle.

I stand down...
Plus, the coffe was a real factor there.....

:morning:

[beq]

Also, as this IS a cellphone as well, what makes you think it doesn't already have a GPS in it?

Are you maybe getting confused with GPS (Global Positioning System) and GPRS (General Packet Radio Service)?

Almost all GSM cellphones and carriers support GPRS these days, but for connectivity as supposed to positioning, and certainly you can triangulate reasonably well off the signal towers but not well enough to navigate precisely yet (I think...).

But inbuilt GPS specifically for navigation, I think there has only been one cellphone with it, and I think it was a bit of a flop.

J'bm

I too had wondered if the FCC's E-911 positioning requirement for cellphones will lead to full-blown support for NMEA-based navigation apps? I recall a long time ago reading about Qualcomm heralding their SnapTrack gpsOne hybrid cell-triangulation/GPS technology -- about how the triangulation aspect picks up when the GPS falters with occluded line-of-sight, and such... I don't know about the issues concerning constant accuracy in regards to hybrid technologies though.

Actually that's one of my two wishes:
1) Cellphone's E-911 positioning technology interfacing with any NMEA navigation app via Bluetooth wireless
2) GPS antennas built into cars (either from OnStar or from built-in navigation options) also featuring Bluetooth NMEA interface to work with any 3rd-party app

Imagine how awesome that would be. You won't need to buy any discrete Bluetooth GPS box, your PPC can just connect to the built-in car GPS while driving, and to your cellphone's E-911 hybrid GPS when walking...

These are just layman guesses though. I imagine GPS Passion and others will know a lot more about the actual facts (I keep forgetting to ask them!)

[Jereboam]

I think the problem here is going to be the business model. The GPS system is effectively free, and so a provider is going to have to come up with the value-added, roll out the system and hardware, and market aggressively to turn people on to a proprietary positioning system.

Basically if it costs too much to implement or there isn't sufficient upside in it it will not happen. It's all about the benjamins...

J'bm

[gibson042]

Any word on whether there will be a camera-free version of this device, like the iPAQ h6340 or the Treo 600? It is so close to perfect, all that remains is to drop the camera and up the screen resolution. C'mon, VGA!

[gorkon280]

http://www.3cvillage.com/images/gps-sd-501-f.jpg


YEESH! NO WAY! I just see that thing snapping right off while it's attached...about 5 minutes after you get a lock!

To answer someone else....it DOES matter a little which way it's pointing. You may get a little faster acquisition time if it's oriented facing the sky, but your right...it should still work. I don't loose a lock if my GPS is facing screen down usually. If it really makes a differenct though, then they could be nice and add a SMA connector so you could use a external antenna. It looks like the use SMA to attach this antenna so it would be easy to add a mag mount GPS patch antenna. I am kind of looking for a decently priced GPS antenna with a Mag mount now.

Also, does anyone know of a cheap resource for BT to RS 232 adapter? I have seen them but they are usually more then a USB BT dongle. I would love a BT GPS, but have trouble justifying to my wife why I NEED one when my eMap works fine! :D The BT to serial would be useful for this as well as for cabling TNC's and any other serial device to my laptop....without a cable. Sorry about straying off topic! :D

[gorkon280]

Also, as this IS a cellphone as well, what makes you think it doesn't already have a GPS in it?

Are you maybe getting confused with GPS (Global Positioning System) and GPRS (General Packet Radio Service)?

Almost all GSM cellphones and carriers support GPRS these days, but for connectivity as supposed to positioning, and certainly you can triangulate reasonably well off the signal towers but not well enough to navigate precisely yet (I think...).

But inbuilt GPS specifically for navigation, I think there has only been one cellphone with it, and I think it was a bit of a flop.

J'bm

Your wrong. Alot of phones have GPS in them, they just don't offer the interface up to applications or for other uses other than e911. You don't HAVE to use a GPS to do e911....it depends on the carrier. To save costs and be able to use phones on more carriers, they probably use GPS as it doesn't require anything other then the cell tower's ability to pass the GPS location to the 911 folks as well as the phones ability itself to pass the lat/long data to the tower. My guess is that they use both and favor the GPS if it has a lock and then if it doesn't (if your inside) it would triangulate your position if you can hear 3 towers. If you can't, well, then they pretty much don't know where you are but maybe able to get close to your location by using the last coordinates that the phone passed to the tower. My v120e has a GPS built in as well as many other phones that have came out in the last couple years. One thing cell providers had said they'd be able to do with the GPS would be location based services. One example might be finding you the closet gas station by picking up your coordinates when you connect to the WAP server. But most providers have been pretty damn busy just trying to make e911 work. That was a few years ago and now Nextel already has this available in their phones as well as navigation too. Check out http://www.nextel.com/about/enterprise/wbs/gps/

[Jereboam]

I dial 999 usually mate...forget what you dial in Switzerland...we're not all in the US you know.

And I keep well up with the mobile world and this is the first I have heard of embedding GPS devices in GSM mobile phones for this reason. Can you give me a source? I have my doubts, due to the enormous privacy implications.

I am, however, aware that you can use them as listening devices.

J'bm

[SeanH]

GPS antennas built into cars (either from OnStar or from built-in navigation options) also featuring Bluetooth NMEA interface to work with any 3rd-party app
I have a Nokia 6820 that uses Cell-tower triangulation to detect a location. Using M-Mode can ask it for restaurants, ATM, gas stations and many other items and it will show all the points of interest within 1 mile. I thought that was really cool. I found this link that talks a little about it.

http://www.fims.uwo.ca/newmedia/cell/Cell_Smith/cell_smith_triangulation_n28_p.htm

I have posted in the past also that it would be great if cars with on-star or other services like that provide a serial interface for your laptop or PDA. Bluetooth would even be better. Maybe someday.

Sean

[gorkon280]

I dial 999 usually mate...forget what you dial in Switzerland...we're not all in the US you know.

And I keep well up with the mobile world and this is the first I have heard of embedding GPS devices in GSM mobile phones for this reason. Can you give me a source? I have my doubts, due to the enormous privacy implications.

I am, however, aware that you can use them as listening devices.

J'bm

So? Just change the number. Anyway there's a GOOD set of foils regarding e911 and GPS here: http://gauss.gge.unb.ca/papers.pdf/GPS+E-911.pdf

To get back on track, this phone and many other PPCPE's may already have GPS on them, but only in use for e911 services. Very soon as you will see by the size of a GPS reciver in that PDF file, there will be MANY more devices with GPS integrated.

[SeanH]

Your wrong. Alot of phones have GPS in them, they just don't offer the interface up to applications or for other uses other than e911. You don't HAVE to use a GPS to do e911....it depends on the carrier. To save costs and be able to use phones on more carriers, they probably use GPS as it doesn't require anything other then the cell tower's ability to pass the GPS location to the 911 folks as well as the phones ability itself to pass the lat/long data to the tower.
I have seen devices from Mot that have a feature called Mobile Station (MS)-assisted mode. Here is a link http://www.motorola.com/ies/GPS/products_positioning.html They are targeted for cell phones but I do not think they are used in any phones on the market today. This device is really new. One of its mode of operation is to acquire data from satellites and send the data to the local tower that you are close to. Its very similar data that you would get from a NEMA serial GPS. Because most phones shipping do not have enough CPU MIPS to triangulate your location its done at the cell tower. Once the phone locks on three satellites the cell tower can triangulate your location and send it back to the carrier for E911.

Like I said I do not know if this is being used now but it will be soon. I have quoted these parts to customers and its around $10. They also have the ability to provide NEMA data for a PDA or laptop.

Sean

[beq]

I agree carriers have an incentive to implement paid location-based services. Anyways, general GPS-based positioning, and applicability for navigation-guidance applications, might not necessarily be the same thing I'm thinking.

Issues about ability to generate continuous realtime positioning data, consistent accuracy at the expected levels, how fast it locks on, outputting via NMEA interface protocol, stuff like that? How many GPS sats it can pick up at once... battery-life issues with modules embedded in cellphones, etc...

I'd love for GPS Passion or someone to do an editor's piece pontificating on E911 future possibilities for navigation (as well as future interfacing possibilities for built-in automobile GPS antennas) :) It just seems kind of redundant to have 3 separate devices in your car that receives GPS (or positioning) signalling...

[Jereboam]

So? Just change the number.

:lol: Eh? Are you not getting me? I am not in the US...dialling 911 will not help me very much. The standard GSM emergency number is 112, which you can dial when the keypad is locked, or when your SIM is absent or blocked. That is a feature of the GSM standard.

Trans-Atlantic response times might leave me a little stuck...

e911 is an American show, mandated by legislation and funded by addon taxes.

I am aware of Nokia's GPS batteries, and the Garmin, and there are maybe 3 or 4 other phones referenced in your PDF but it is not widespread. The commercial reality of building new hardware into a reference phone design without first designing a viable business model around it means that this is not standard yet...

I do not deny it is coming - but in Europe at least it will be on a commercial basis, not an "e911" type arrangement.

Correct me if I have made any factual errors.

J'bm