Engadget Speculates On Sony's Return To PDA Market

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.engadget.com/entry/5451346367956557/">http://www.engadget.com/entry/5451346367956557/</a><br /><br />Strictly from the rumor mill, Engadget is speculating that Sony will return to the PDA market, but not with the PalmOS platform.<br /><br /><i>"We all mourned when Sony broke the news that due to sluggish sales they were halting sales of their Clie line of Palm-powered handhelds everywhere except Japan, but apparently Sony execs, who always make the right decision about everything, are thinking about bringing the Clie back to the States, only this time running on the Pocket PC or Symbian operating systems."</i><br /><br />Do you think there is anything to it?

[TheZodiac]

This is absolutely true as a rumor. The speculation is 100% correct.

Can you imagine a UX-50 type with WinMo'03SE or Symbian 8?

Interesting. Almost.

[sponge]

Although Sony competes against itself a lot, I don't think they'd mess with the Playstation division, hence my voting for them staying away.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Symbian. It would leverage their high end phone line very nicely...

[ucfgrad93]

I just don't see Sony picking up a PocketPC license any time soon.

[edxavier]

They already have a PDA replacement under the Vaio brand in Japan. The Vaio U50 and U70 (only 550g) runs on WinXP and does everything a PDA can do plus much more due to the fact it's a tablet.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I hope they will bring on a PPC, but I voted for Symbian. Besides, Memory stick instead of CF or SD........... :|

[Dave Potter]

Keep in mind Sony's recent track record for making stupid decisions...

The most logical thing would be to release them with the Pocket PC OS. That's precisely why they won't do it - it's much too logical. Instead, they will release it with the Symbian OS or worse, with Linux 8O .

Nothing against Symbian or Linux. They are just not as main stream when it comes to PDAs. That's why the brain trust at Sony will go that route. They've always gone the dumb and obscure route. For example - Net MD Walkmans and their continuing refusal to support the MP3 format.

Need I say more?

[Vincent M Ferrari]

They are just not as main stream when it comes to PDAs.

All it'll take is a couple of good PDA's and a major manufacturer to turn that around.

I agree they aren't as mainstream as other OS'es, but taken on its merits, Symbian is a kick ass OS...

[Zero101]

I think Sony will return to the PDA market in one form or another... maybe not in the next year or two; but eventually.

And I don't think there is a chance in hell they run Pocket PC. Sony has never had a great relationship with Microsoft, and Symbian would play well into their cell-phone division as well.

A Sony-branded Symbian clamshell with PCMCIA and Memory stick would be hot. I like SD, but since my notebook and Camera both have MemStick slots, I could easily make the jump to that.

[felixdd]

I just don't see Sony picking up a PocketPC license any time soon.

Indeed. Remember that Sony pulled out of the overseas market, not their domestic one. Why would they release PPC devices to overseas, when they're still rolling out PalmOS devices on their own "turf" so to speak?

Furthermore, would MS let them have a PPC license? MS is pretty strict on their OS specs, and may not like Sony insisting on using Memory Sticks instead of the standard CF/SD cards.

However, this is an opportunity for any company to step up and steal HP's thunder (blunder?). There are a lot of potential sales to be had when HP dropped the ball, and if Sony sees this and comes back with their line of PalmOS device, then PalmOS is just going to take off and all the hard work that the PPC platform has done to "catch up" will have all gone to waste.

Kinda sad, but just as Sony dealt a huge blow to PalmSource, HP has dealt a huge blow to PPC.

[TheZodiac]

They got their ass kicked by palm, and left the US market. What they do have isa very nice cell/pda product in the P. K, and other series phones using Symbian and their own OS's.

NOW:

Since Nokia recently announced they will be releaseing PDAs with the Symbian OS, perhaps Sony will try and compete with them on that level. Athough I dont quite understand the whole Symbian thing on an unconnected PDA (ok wifi and BT arent necessarily standalone connections) It could be the best route. S pointless one, but the best one still.

Why not just build better cell phone? Thats a thought! :)

[sapibobo]

There is small possibility that Sony will use Symbian.

If they did that, Clie line will "crashed'' with P9xx series from Sony Ericsson.
That's why Clie never release any model with GSM/GPRS wireless capability (though certainly they're highly capable of doing that).
Some analysts predict that eventually Sony will 'kill' any of these two.

P9xx are closer and closer to PDA functionality. Clie never had a 'complete' wireless features. AFAIK i never see any Symbian's "pure" PDA. Symbian always came in Smartphone form factor, and I dont think they will release any 'Clie Smartphones'.... some engineers in Sony Ericsson will definitely disagree with that.

[Zero101]

AFAIK i never see any Symbian's "pure" PDA.

Well... not anymore, but Symbian was very some time ago, especially in the UK. The PSION PDA's ran the Symbian os and were very nice little devices... and not cellphone at all.

[bjornkeizers]

Can you imagine a UX-50 type with WinMo'03SE or Symbian 8?


I nearly peed my pants out of sheer excitement.

I'd be positively extatic if Sony would make a PPC device. Imagine an NX/NZ flip screen PPC...

[sponge]

Keep in mind Sony's recent track record for making stupid decisions...

The most logical thing would be to release them with the Pocket PC OS. That's precisely why they won't do it - it's much too logical. Instead, they will release it with the Symbian OS or worse, with Linux 8O .

Nothing against Symbian or Linux. They are just not as main stream when it comes to PDAs. That's why the brain trust at Sony will go that route. They've always gone the dumb and obscure route. For example - Net MD Walkmans and their continuing refusal to support the MP3 format.

Need I say more?

Much too logical to go with PPCs only because you're a big user of one? On the outside, PPC isn't so dominating as we'd like to think, hell I doubt half of the users care what it's running on.

[powder2000]

Ya, I voted Symbian, if anything. I just can't see sony picking up a ppc license only to put memory stick in it :roll: They would have another failure if they went this route. As stated already, I also doubt MS would license to them due to the fact they would use memory stick (at least I would hope they wouldn't).

[Snail]

I don't believe there's any way Sony will be back in the PDA world anytime soon. PSP will cater for those who want to play games, and the P900 series will pander to those who want PDA / Phone capabilities.

Of course, it's quite possible that Sony will offer proprietary (read:expensive) add-ons to enhance the PSP's capabilities, but I reckon they'll prefer to continue to develop their own OS (no royalty payments, see?) :!:

I would rush out to the shops to buy the next-gen UX50, but as it is, I believe that I'll struggle to get a PDA in a similar form factor for some time to come. Oh well, at least the "gadget-budget" won't get quite so hammered for a while!

[Duncan]

Let's see - do I want a Pocket PC that:

a) Only takes Memory Sticks

b) Uses the Sony brand of crippled Bluetooth

c) Is packed with frivolous gimmicks

d) Is bizarrely underpowered compared to the opposition

e) Has battery life you can measure in minutes

f) Comes with Sony's uber high priced accessories, poor support and lmitations on upgrades

g) Is superceded by a new model every two weeks (possible exageration)

h) Is made by a company that really doesn't get in with MS

I think I vote - 'Please God no...!...

[draiken]

I remember reading something about Sony not having a good relationship with MS (not in the post above, something more detailed) but sadly I can't remember where...

If they have such a bad relationship, why isn't VAIO a Mac clone line? or come with Linux pre-installed?

Sony still pays MS for the Windows' licenses it's VAIO computers carry, wouldn't it be the same if they came out with a PPC line?

[jpjehu]

Sony has it's problems with their clie line, but they're still lightyears ahead of any current ppc manufacturer in the innovation department - and I'm a ppc enthusiast. I almost converted four different times to palm os due to the incredible design ingenuity of the clie line. The useless CF slot, the wacko wifi card, the memory stick, the previous encoding bitrate limitation for mp3s - all helped me stay away, but the screen, form factor, video conversion, camera, innovation, built in qwerty, and recent battery life on the th55 was tough to turn my head from. Plus, they released a gamepad for their entire line! I believe that if they released a ppc version with their designing creativity, HP would have to innovate. Either way, though, I don't there's any likelihood of them ever doing so, unfortunately...

[JPack]

I doubt Sony will return anytime soon.

Unlike in Japan, U.S. consumers simply aren't willing to spend that much on a multimedia device. That leaves the commercial market. However, Sony doesn't have the infrastructure to support commercial customers either. Any new Sony handheld is going to have to be sustained by a very small, specialized market.

[orol]

There is small possibility that Sony will use Symbian.

If they did that, Clie line will "crashed'' with P9xx series from Sony Ericsson.
That's why Clie never release any model with GSM/GPRS wireless capability (though certainly they're highly capable of doing that).
Some analysts predict that eventually Sony will 'kill' any of these two.

P9xx are closer and closer to PDA functionality. Clie never had a 'complete' wireless features. AFAIK i never see any Symbian's "pure" PDA. Symbian always came in Smartphone form factor, and I dont think they will release any 'Clie Smartphones'.... some engineers in Sony Ericsson will definitely disagree with that.

well symbian was originaly pure PDA thing. and now sony or sony ericsson raised they share in symbian by 10-12% (I don't remember it now exactly) and pumped into the company around 250 million dollars. and they will just extend the P9xx line.

and since MS doesn't allow any tweaking to the OS sony won't take it. it's not only about memory stick but the overall HW. sony couldn't do anything like UX50 on WM platform. UX50 is still masterpiece among all PDAs.

and well, sony ericsson sold more of it's P800/900 devices then all the PPC makers together

[whydidnt]

I voted that they are out of the PDA market for good. Their product mix is all consumer driven, and most successful PDA's are business driven. They have the PSP to hit the consumer market, and they want the PSP to be "the" device.

It's been reported that Microsoft has loosened the strings on PPC designs to allow more flexiblity. That would give hope that Sony would create a PPC. However, my guess is that, with their substantial investment in both Palm and Symbian, the chances of them developing a PPC are somewhere between slim and none :cry:

Sony's issue with M$ is the same as M$ issue with Sony - They BOTH want to dictacte terms to the other. Neither one of these companies really play nice with their "partners".

[Maced]

I'd like to see another PPC maker into the competition to possibly help lower prices and get new ideas about design and functionality.

I don't care if it's sony, or nike...... Just let some more competition enter the market!



PSP:
I think the PSP was made too quickly... What I would really like to see though, is for someone to make a handheld gaming system with a touch screen and software expanding capability (and instead of some special cartridge, a secure digital or CF card for the game)... A touch screen would enable easier play of hunting games and FPS games.... hell, even a small mouse or trackball would be cool.

[Leon]

I remember reading something about Sony not having a good relationship with MS
Microsoft and Sony had a great relationship in the time they introduced the MSX computer (http://www.faq.msxnet.org/msxgeneral.html).
Unfortunately, that computer was not very sucessful.

Interestingly, in 1998 Sony released this press release (http://www.sony.com/SCA/press/980407.shtml), announcing the were going to licence Windows CE, although for a different purpose.

[Mark Johnson]

I hope they will bring on a PPC, but I voted for Symbian. Besides, Memory stick instead of CF or SD........... :|

Why not a Linux option on the poll? Hey, we can dream right? :)

Mmmm... Clie with SD instead of MemoryStink... A real Jog Dial... Running Linux... Don't wake me up...

[felixdd]

I remember reading something about Sony not having a good relationship with MS (not in the post above, something more detailed) but sadly I can't remember where...

If they have such a bad relationship, why isn't VAIO a Mac clone line? or come with Linux pre-installed?

Purely business-driven decision. MS is what the consumer market wants, so Sony has to cater to it whether they like it or not.

[Dave Potter]

Keep in mind Sony's recent track record for making stupid decisions...

The most logical thing would be to release them with the Pocket PC OS. That's precisely why they won't do it - it's much too logical. Instead, they will release it with the Symbian OS or worse, with Linux 8O .

Nothing against Symbian or Linux. They are just not as main stream when it comes to PDAs. That's why the brain trust at Sony will go that route. They've always gone the dumb and obscure route. For example - Net MD Walkmans and their continuing refusal to support the MP3 format.

Need I say more?

Much too logical to go with PPCs only because you're a big user of one? On the outside, PPC isn't so dominating as we'd like to think, hell I doubt half of the users care what it's running on.

Where did I suggest that my personal preferences dictated what is logical and what is not?? I didn't.

My reference to logic was based on one simple premise - sales. As somone else said, Sony pulled out of the North American market because they got their a$$es kicked. So, logically, if they were to contemplate re-entering the market, they would want to do it in such a way as to minimize the chances of getting their a$$es kicked again. As such, using a more mainstream OS such as Pocket PC might be the more logical course.

Again - nothing against Symbian - but in North America, Symbian is far from mainstream.

[Mark Johnson]

...I doubt half of the users care what it's running on.

This point seems pretty relevant to me. I don't know or care what OS is in my cellphone. Originally (many years ago) when the "Palm-Sized PC" and "WindowsCE" arrived, I was excited primarily because I foresaw the day when a common application set would work both on my desktop and mobile devices. Microsoft has bent over backwards to make sure the PPC/WinCE is the "little brother" of real a PC/WinXP to make sure that portable devices never become sufficiently capable to canabalize the desktop market. This means that we've only ever gotten to have a common data set on our desktops and mobiles (through various syncronization methods), never a common application set or even an all-that-similar UI for that matter.

So the point is that I for one no longer remotely care what the fundamental featureset differences between WinCE/Symbian/Linux/Palm are anymore anyway. It is, ironically, Microsoft that has proven that the OS of the handheld doesn't matter to anyone other than developers. Users don't, won't, and shouldn't care The highest end power user who wants to run a copy of "real" Access on both his desk and his handheld is out of luck. The lowest end little-old-lady who want to put her "WidgetSoft SuperSolitaire 2004" on both her XP desktop and her iPaq is out of luck.

What we need is OQO's that both exist and are reasonably priced.

[Dave Potter]

Purely business-driven decision. MS is what the consumer market wants, so Sony has to cater to it whether they like it or not.

My point exactly.

[Mark Johnson]

Purely business-driven decision. MS is what the consumer market wants, so Sony has to cater to it whether they like it or not.

My point exactly.

This is actually a very interesting thought. Doesn't it seem more likely that the "majority/average buyer" (not hardcore users like us) is only interested in a "featureset" and not the OS? If Joe Average wants to listen to mp3's, browse the web, open/edit Word .doc files and watch an occasional video, he chooses PPC instead of Palm because the devices for sale at BestBuy that do what he wants are PPC. If there had been a Palm unit next to it for the same price that did the same things, would he have cared?

I'm really asking if you guys think there is much "brand loyalty" to ANY of the OS's for most users. (Emphasize users, not developers.) It seems to me that there are few compelling reasons that there would be. Even "power users" like you and me have very little reason to be "loyal" to the PPC platform in principle.

Imagine, for the sake of the discussion, that tomorrow Samsung releases the UberDevice with my dream VGA 3.75-inch screen, BT/WiFi/Tri-band Phone capabilites. They have two versions of it, one with CF and SD, one slightly smaller with SD only. It's fast, has MP3 and MPEG video playback, a MicrosoftOffice-Compatible suite (my .doc, .xls, .mdb files all open, edit, save, etc.) Syncs with my desktop Outlook calendar and contacts flawlessly. And it's $500.

Even if Samsung straight-up tells me that "the UberDevice uses an undocumented proprietary Samsung OS" I wouldn't care. If I can open/edit/save the .doc,.xls,.mp3,.mpg files I keep on the SD card and sync with Outlook, what difference would it make to me? And I'm a serious enthusiast! On the "does Grandma care" scale, the OS importance would be 0-Kelvin...

[felixdd]

This is actually a very interesting thought. Doesn't it seem more likely that the "majority/average buyer" (not hardcore users like us) is only interested in a "featureset" and not the OS? If Joe Average wants to listen to mp3's, browse the web, open/edit Word .doc files and watch an occasional video, he chooses PPC instead of Palm because the devices for sale at BestBuy that do what he wants are PPC. If there had been a Palm unit next to it for the same price that did the same things, would he have cared?

I'm really asking if you guys think there is much "brand loyalty" to ANY of the OS's for most users. (Emphasize users, not developers.) It seems to me that there are few compelling reasons that there would be. Even "power users" like you and me have very little reason to be "loyal" to the PPC platform in principle.

Imagine, for the sake of the discussion, that tomorrow Samsung releases the UberDevice with my dream VGA 3.75-inch screen, BT/WiFi/Tri-band Phone capabilites. They have two versions of it, one with CF and SD, one slightly smaller with SD only. It's fast, has MP3 and MPEG video playback, a MicrosoftOffice-Compatible suite (my .doc, .xls, .mdb files all open, edit, save, etc.) Syncs with my desktop Outlook calendar and contacts flawlessly. And it's $500.

Even if Samsung straight-up tells me that "the UberDevice uses an undocumented proprietary Samsung OS" I wouldn't care. If I can open/edit/save the .doc,.xls,.mp3,.mpg files I keep on the SD card and sync with Outlook, what difference would it make to me? And I'm a serious enthusiast! On the "does Grandma care" scale, the OS importance would be 0-Kelvin...

In the case of OS decision, it's not so much brand loyalty as it is familiarity vs. fear of unknown/laziness to learn something new. For desktop OS's, both Windows, Mac, and even Linux can do everything "the other guy" can. The users know this, so why choose a new OS and have to spend time to learn it, when they can stick with what they know?

For the portable device, if the user has a specific feature set that can't be satisfied by any of the current players except by the UberDevice you are taking about, then the user would naturally drift towards it. But two more points need consideration here:

1) The "average" user doesn't know exactly what they want. They have a fuzzy concept of what they want to do -- i.e. read documents, listen to music, etc. So they will question along those lines, "can this Palm play MP3's? Can this PPC read word documents?" The sales rep behind the counter will of course say yes, because they are technically right, and they also get commission.

2) Those that know exactly what they want are probably above the "average" user. They know that they want ogg over mp3. They know that they want full macro and OLE support in word documents. They know that they want to be able to bluetooth handshake with their phone while simultaneously accessing a WiFi network. These will be the ones that adopt the new/more powerful OS and declare it to be better. And if it really is that powerful, eventually the "average end user" will hear about it.

Of course, marketing plays a huge role too. The advanced user will probably not take the subway and magazine ads in the same way the average user will. Whereas the latter will say, "that ad says this device can play music. Cool! Lets get one!" the advanced user may likely say, "Hmm here's a new music player on the block. How does it stack up to my expectations/previous devices? Is there any future potential for this device?" Etc. etc.

[mangochutneyman]

None of the answer options makes sense IMO. First of all, it should be recalled that Sony in the past made a $20+ million or so investment in Palmsource. It also has an investment in the Symbian consortium via it's Sony Ericsson partnership. If Sony were ever to return back to the NA pda market, it would most likely choose either PalmOS (Cobalt?) or Symbian OS, and most definitely not WM...sorry. :roll: :wink:

The fact is that Sony for a very long time had an unsual dichotomy of using Symbian OS on it's smartphones and PalmOS on it's PDA's. In fact, Sony's CEO, Nobuyuki Idei even once said that he wanted Sony to buy PalmSource (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5078). Well, that didn't happen and Sony instead decided to cut it's losses in a stagnating non-growing PDA market and instead focus it's resources into it's profitable SE partnership and PSP. Also, it should be noted that Sony has NOT abandoned PalmOS in Japan. It will be interesting to see if Sony releases any Cobalt devices in Japan and if future success may induce them to re-enter the NA market. But for now, I think Sony will just stick to using Symbian for its SE phones only...

[twalk]

None of the answer options makes sense IMO. First of all, it should be recalled that Sony in the past made a $20+ million or so investment in Palmsource. It also has an investment in the Symbian consortium via it's Sony Ericsson partnership. If Sony were ever to return back to the NA pda market, it would most likely choose either PalmOS (Cobalt?) or Symbian OS, and most definitely not WM...sorry. :roll: :wink:

The fact is that Sony for a very long time had an unsual dichotomy of using Symbian OS on it's smartphones and PalmOS on it's PDA's. In fact, Sony's CEO, Nobuyuki Idei even once said that he wanted Sony to buy PalmSource (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5078). Well, that didn't happen and Sony instead decided to cut it's losses in a stagnating non-growing PDA market and instead focus it's resources into it's profitable SE partnership and PSP. Also, it should be noted that Sony has NOT abandoned PalmOS in Japan. It will be interesting to see if Sony releases any Cobalt devices in Japan and if future success may induce them to re-enter the NA market. But for now, I think Sony will just stick to using Symbian for its SE phones only...

As of this posting, 41% think that it will definitely be PPC.

I agree with the above poster. $20M investment in PS, Sony PalmOS sales still going on in Japan, S-E finally getting some real traction, another major investment in Symbian, and no rumors in the slightest until now about anything using PPC. I don't buy it.

Also, moving to PPC likely wouldn't be the best way to compete in NA and Europe. In NA, Palm still has 50% greater marketshare than PPC, and that's held steady for quite a while now. Add in smartphone sales, and the treo600 is the best selling smartphone in NA by far, then PPC isn't doing all that good in NA. European PPC sales really took off for the last 2+ years, bypassing PalmOS sales, and being a big reason for PPC sales to be basically even (give or take a few % at any one time) with PalmOS sales worldwide. However when you throw in Symbian smartphones into the mix (Nokia), both PalmOS & PPC are being creamed in Europe.

Now add in that Sony is a consumer electronics company, and most PPCs are sold to businesses... Then add the "mindshare" lock that HP & Dell have on the PPC market.

Now also add in that from a parts standpoint, nearly all future devices will use souped up cell phone parts, because in a few years smartphones will outsell pdas 100:1.

My guess is *maybe* Symbian, with PalmOS being a real outside shot if (and only if) P1 is by some miracle able to keep the treo as the top selling smartphone in NA for the next 2-3 years.

For those 41% who said "definitely, PPC", why? I haven't seen yet why this would be a good idea for Sony. (Sure, it would be good for *us*, but why would it be good for Sony?)

[Ketsugi]

Regarding the memory stick issue, I've heard it said that Sony is no longer pushing so hard for it... what I've been told (though I haven't checked out the specs myself) is that their latest prosumer digital cameras now use CF slots instead of MS...

Again, I'm not sure of the veracity of this, nor am I sufficiently motivated to go and check up on this, but if it's true that's one less argument against a Sony PPC.

[Ed Hansberry]

Regarding the memory stick issue, I've heard it said that Sony is no longer pushing so hard for it... what I've been told (though I haven't checked out the specs myself) is that their latest prosumer digital cameras now use CF slots instead of MS...

Again, I'm not sure of the veracity of this, nor am I sufficiently motivated to go and check up on this, but if it's true that's one less argument against a Sony PPC.
I think that is because prosumer and pros demand CF and will simply buy a non-Sony camera to get it.

[huangzhinong]

Is there any sympian handheld in market now? Sorry, I can't find any one. (Don't tell me those sympian $1000 smart phone, which won't be mainstream forever.)

My bet is SONY is out of PDA market completely. There is no space for SONY in Pocket PC at all, esp if they stick to the memory stINK.

[Mark Johnson]

Is there any sympian handheld in market now? Sorry, I can't find any one.

Good point huangzhinong. I can't think of any Symbian device other than smartphones. I don't think SONY would be willing to release a PDA with an OS that didn't have some history as being used in PDA's.

There is no space for SONY in Pocket PC at all, esp if they stick to the memory stINK.

Absolutely right. Sony seemed to be getting into PDA's (when they licensed PalmOS) almost to "prove" that MemoryStink had *finally* penetrated the PDA market. It was like they knew that to make MS a floppy-replacement/pervasive-storage they needed desktop, camera, AND handheld devices. And no independent OEM was going to go MS, so they sunk a bazillion dollars to try to "make it happen."

[Dave Potter]

Is there any sympian handheld in market now? Sorry, I can't find any one.

Good point huangzhinong. I can't think of any Symbian device other than smartphones. I don't think SONY would be willing to release a PDA with an OS that didn't have some history as being used in PDA's.

That raises another interesting point regarding Symbian's lack of mainstream-ness (is that a real word? :D ) in North America...

Just what is available in the way of 3rd party apps for Symbian as compared to Pocket PC or Palm? I personally have no idea. I suspect that there isn't nearly as much available and that what is available is geared mostly toward phones. Someone correct me if I am wrong. But, if I am right - how attractive will a PDA be if there aren't many (or any?) 3rd party PDA apps available?

Food for thought.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with the camp that says that Sony will stay out of the PDA market in North America for good.