HP Puts up FAQ About PPC2003SE Support: Readers Question the 'Answers'

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=655775' target='_blank'>http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/...threadId=655775</a><br /><br /></div>A few days ago HP posted a statement on their forums, describing why they "can't" provide an upgrade to WM2003SE for the "old" devices. You will find that statement as an attachment to the first post <a href="http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=655775">here.</a> <br /><br /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/hp-logo.jpg" /> <br /><br />In the statement, HP answer such classic questions as "Why from time to time, does HP decide not to offer operating system upgrades?" Already there are many responses and rebuttals to the HP arguments, including some very good points from Pony99CA and Kati. In fact, it's worth checking out the thread for entertainment value alone. :wink: The HP excuses really seem pretty feeble and don't seem to withstand even casual scrutiny. How the mighty are fallen.....

[sooby77]

All I have to say is, someone needs to be fired in HP. If you think you can deceive the tech savvy community, think again. We'll fine comb through any of your excuses and strike them down one by one.

[webagogue]

Total BS. I like how, when talking about limited ROM size, HP said they decided to keep "value added" 3rd party apps over an OS upgrade. Uh huh. I just can't live without TWO image viewers on my 4155. MSN app? Please! Messenger? Never worked for me though I prefer a FREE IM app called Agile Messenger that allows connection to ICQ, AIM, Yahoo!, MSN.

Hmmm..

1. Deny HP customers a deserved upgrade.
2. Release lame, uninspired new devices
3. ... Profit?!?

[dhettel]

Hmm I don't know which is the saddest, that HP wants to obsolete my device, before it's time for greed. Or HP wants me to believe that HP lacks the technical ability to provide an upgrade to WM SE.

HP claims to be worried about my user experience. If that is so, then please provide a ROM update that allows my 5555 to continue to read ebooks on a storage card, after powering the device off/on, without first closing my reader and reopening it each time.

HP has stated their are no major improvements between WMFE and WMSE, if that is true. Then I would suggest you remember the 5455 and 5555. One of the major improvements in the 5555 over the 5455 was the additional RAM. Now HP is reading the hx4700, is this another example of planed obsoleteness? Why do all the new models have very limited RAM?

If WMSE is not useful on existing models because they have QVGA screens, why then of the 6 known models HP is releasing with WMSE, do 5 of them have QVGA screens?

[mcsouth]

Anyone notice that HP states that they have NO INTENTION of offering WM2003SE for the newly-released 6300?

Does the newly launched h6300 come with Microsoft® Windows Mobile™ 2003 Second Edition?

Based on the product design functionality and release timing, it was decided not to offer Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition on this model. HP has included enhanced wireless capabilities on this product including the latest WiFi security standards. It is unlikely that HP will provide an update to Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition on this product. Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition would not provide any significant enhancements, as most of the key functionality that is important on a device such as the iPaq h6300 series has been taken into consideration prior to its release.

The 6300 was the ONE newly-launched device from HP that I had any interest in - they effectively just eliminated my desire to purchase that unit. At this point, HP has basically got no PPC's with WM2003SE that I have any interest in purchasing - I don't know what horse's a?? is running that group at this point, but in my opinion, they have managed to completely destroy any credibility they had gained in the PPC market. That Dell X30 is starting to look pretty attractive at this point......

[wocket]

I noticed one of the posts there talking about the iPAQ2210 running SE.

I remember the news earlier on then the year about developers queing up at the HP stand at one of the shows to have their iPAq's reflashed with it.

Correct me if i'm wrong

Plus how come i'm able to jump between second edition and first edition on a Tosh E800 and yet non E800 owners are left in the cold.

tut tut HP

[gorkon280]

HP....these are not the dimwits who BUY your PC's. You can't fool us. When we see the rz1715 has a 32 MB ROM yet your still loading SE on it, then your arguments about ROM size fall short so to speak. :D Also, I dont need your image viewer just the same as when we were running PC's with Windows 3 on it, we did not need a replacement for the UI Microsoft provided. I am also willing to let go of my measly filestore on my 4355 to have a landscape mode and imporvements to the rest of the OS. I don't necessarily need messenger installed to rom either and MS Reader is the biggest hunk of junk out there. Also, the 4355 hasn't even had a rom update since it's been released. Some of the updates that the 4150's got we 4355 owners would like. HP you have also happened to kill a line of Pocket PC's that were once better then every other manufacturer.

[dhettel]

I noticed one of the posts there talking about the iPAQ2210 running SE.

I remember the news earlier on then the year about developers queing up at the HP stand at one of the shows to have their iPAq's reflashed with it.

Correct me if i'm wrong

Plus how come i'm able to jump between second edition and first edition on a Tosh E800 and yet non E800 owners are left in the cold.

tut tut HP

That couldn't have had anything to do with sales being slow before the release of new models. By releasing a "beta" for the 2210 HP knows that the 2210 will be discussed? And when it is talked about sales go up. You get to unload a few 2210 sittings on shelves.

Do you remember all the reports of the beta NOT working?

Toshiba would appear to have learn a lesson with the E750. Perhaps if enough people refuse the new HP lineup, HP will learn something too. Perhaps not, it would seem that the powers at HP want to reach out and touch us in forums that HP does not own yet. To control and limit what we can post here.

[Duncan]

Let's put this in simple balck and white terms...

The agreements that HP tried to hold Jason and otgher webmasters to was underhand, nasty and stupid - but that isn't important here.

The range of new devices is uninspired and takes HP backwards - but that isn't important here either.

Not offering upgrades is shortsighted and a mistake - but even that isn't important...

What matters here is one simple, undeniable, startk fact...

In giving their reasons for not providing the upgrade HP have out and out directly, unambiguously and cynically LIED.

We all know that the document of reasons given by HP is a pack of lies from beginning to end.

Now - I'm no fan of online petitions. I never felt that HP were obliged to provide the upgrades - even if the smart thing was to do so. But this is sheer bald faced lying - if HP had simply kept quiet they would be in a stringer moral position right now.

Hammer them. Make them realise that lying to their cutomers and treating them like idiots will not be tolerated.

[carrigaline]

Hi all,

Very interesting thread - can't believe HP with all of this.

If HP were to say that they are not going to offer WM2003SE updates for economic/resource reasons, but when WM2005 comes out they will look to examine the possibility of providing upgrade CDs at a cost for certain models e.g. the 5550.....then I think they would be moving in a direction to manage this whole PR disaster.

I assume that the recently released models would not have been launched if they could not handle WM2005 - as making orphans of these units next summer would mean complete disaster for their market share. Surely they have been in discussions with Microsoft about the hardware requirements of WM2005. Thus, would such a nod to WM2005 be out of the question?

If Dell come out with a VGA version of their current X30 (624mhrz) - say even with the same design look - then even if its $100 more than the current QVGA, then would people go for that in droves or what?

If Dell made the X30 design better on the eyes and with a VGA screen then they could well make a massive land grab in the market.

I would love to see a poll on people's most likely next purchase after this whole debacle.

[Sven Johannsen]

Some of the gripes are getting a bit silly. HP is not a non-profit philanthropic organization. It is a business. They made a business decision to not invest in creating a product with little return. I'm sure they believe the profit they would make selling $30 upgrades wouldn't offset the investment. You can believe different if you wish. Why do I say $30? Because that is what Dell charged for their last upgrade CD. Difference was that Dell was selling WM2003 X5s as well as the upgrade, so the investment in generating the OS version for the X5 was sunk. That is not the case here. Since HP is not selling those models with WM2003SE on them, the investment in making it work would only be recouped selling upgrades. Like it or not, that is not a big market on a relative scale. Dell has made the same decision as HP this time. They aren't selling X3s or X5s with WM2003SE on them...they aren't offering upgrades for those models.

Toshiba seems to be the only one offerring SE upgrades. Do I recall about a year ago Toshiba fans up in arms about an upgrade they weren't getting?

Sure, I too would like to put SE on my 4155 and 2215, but I'm not going to lament that I have ben betrayed by corporate America because they choose not to offer it. I can tell you that the visible enhancements of SE on a QVGA machine aren't anything to fall on your sword over. I have an X30. It's a nice machine, but it would be a nice machine even without SE on it. All I'd really loose is dynamic Landscape. If you think that is compelling, buy a copy of Nyditot, it costs about the same as I expect the upgrade would if it existed, and it does a lot more.

I'm as much of a geek as the next guy, but I think I could find a much more globally significant outlet for my outrage than griping about or convincing HP to release an SE upgrade for my iPAQ.

[Kati Compton]

I'm as much of a geek as the next guy, but I think I could find a much more globally significant outlet for my outrage than griping about or convincing HP to release an SE upgrade for my iPAQ.
I think that you're right that some of the complaints are from people that think that HP "owes" them an upgrade. It's true that their prior track record seemed to indicate that there would be one, but you're right that they don't have to do it if they don't want... except for a few things.

1. Some people said they were flat-out told when buying devices from HP that their devices would be upgradable to SE. If this is correct, then HP should provide the upgrade or face legal consequences.

2. They don't just say "We don't want to provide the upgrade.", or "It's in our best financial interests to not offer the upgrade." While some might debate whether or not the second sentence there was acutally true, I think no one would say that HP was lying about their viewpoint. What they *do* is give clearly feeble excuses for why they're not providing the upgrade, some of which are just plain lies.

I think the outrage about these two is perfectly valid, and I can also see why the people who recently bought new expensive devices would also be upset - the "obsolescence" dates that HP gave for each of the devices are pretty soon. In fact, I think some devices are still being sold that are considered obsolete by HP.

Then you get even more outrage from those 194x users who see that *their* device is obsolete, and that the replacement is clearly inferior. It really stretches the meaning of "obsolete".

[JonnoB]

Earlier this year, HP during Mobile DevCon was flashing 221x devices with WM2003SE. It was a beta, but it did work with the exception of bluetooth. I assume it was a technical problem that was not easily resolved with the 221x bt implementation that could not be resolved economically. If that is the case, they should say so. None of the other arguments make any sense.

[Deus]

No sweat of my back! I have long been with HP but there are plenty of great contenders out there now. ASUS is looking real good. If they and other companies make the right decisions at this point and gain a nice piece of the market, HP will have to work harder to get customers back. Maybe even drive prices down!

Compaq broght me to the iPAQ HP will seperate us with their bad decision making. ( I have to admit I loved their CS though)

[debbi8]

I've owned 2 HPs - a 520 & a 568. I won't own a 3rd one. :bad-words:

[Deus]

Another thing is that I find it insulting that HP thinks its customers are numb enough to except the excuses they are offering.

[Sven Johannsen]

I'm curious. What exactly in HPs release do you think is a lie?

[Rob Alexander]

Some of the gripes are getting a bit silly. HP is not a non-profit philanthropic organization. It is a business. They made a business decision to not invest in creating a product with little return. I'm sure they believe the profit they would make selling $30 upgrades wouldn't offset the investment.

Exactly! And if they'd just come out and say that, then you might understand where they're coming from. Not everyone would be happy about it, but you'd at least understand. The funny thing to me is that I didn't really care about the upgrade for my 2215; I'm not even sure if I'd buy it at $30. But I find myself irritated at this nonsense they're asking us to swallow. It's insulting, though not end of the world stuff or anything.

Edit: I just saw your question to someone else about what part of what they said is a lie. I'm not sure that lie is the right word, probably 'excuse' is better, but here are the points that are bothering me.

1. That you can't run SE in a device with 32MB ROM. They are doing so, so it must be possible.

2. That they can't provide an upgrade because not all apps work in landscape more. Well, that would be true of my 3rd party apps too. That doesn't mean there's no value in the upgrade.

3. That they can't provide the upgrades because the existing hardware does not support VGA. While it's true that the hardware does not support VGA, that has nothing to do with providing an upgrade. Only one of their new SE-based PPCs has VGA yet they seemed to think that SE was of some value to them.

Again, I don't really want the upgrade, but this is just dumb. You had it right in the first place; it's about the cost of providing the upgrade versus the revenues. The upgrade may be a net loss as a stand-alone item, and they are betting that, without the upgrade, lots of us will go ahead and buy new PPCs instead. The problem with that formula is that it assumes that the $30 you receive for the upgrade is the only revenue from providing the upgrade. It fails to account for the fact that upgrades are an important factor in the purchasing decision and that providing them may well be ultimately more profitable through increasing your market share of original device purchases.

[JonnoB]

I'm curious. What exactly in HPs release do you think is a lie?

- The ROM size is an issue (many of the new SE devices have the same or less ROM than the older devices)
- HP feels required to include all 3rd party apps in the same ROM
- major benefit is to VGA or square screens and 3rd party products would not work in landscape

[elbowz]

Sorry Guys but been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

As a owner of Jornada's 525, 548 and 568 I was delighted with HPs decision to only offer WM2003 updates to iPaq owners after the HP-Compaq merger. Nothing like rewarding customer loyalty!

At the time HP gave out a similar amount of BS - the 568 didn't have wireless so couldn't run WM2003, the ROM wasn't large enough, etc. (sound familiar).

Decided to strike HP from my list of personal suppliers, plus I switched a six-figure order for notebooks from HP to an alternate supplier where I worked. Small fry for HP I'm sure, but lots of positive karma for myself...

[sracer]

This is just shades of Deja Vu... Last year it was Dell trying to soft-soap customers by denying that their Axim X5 Advanced devices shipped with WM2003 had any problems. (And then instructing their customercare personel to refuse to accept any problems as WM2003-related).

HP doesn't owe us 2215 owners an upgrade... free or for-fee. But they DO owe us an honest answer.

[Duncan]

Companies do fudge issues. They do deny problems as much as possible (it is almost a legal obligation for them to minimise issues and problems). They do put a brave face on unpopular decisions.

All of these whilst not acceptable are still recognisable as standard business practice and fall short of actual deceit.

What HP have done here thogh is actually tell direct lies - and they have done so to a community of users who know way too much to be taken in.

The 2003SE upgrade will fit into the iPAQ 221x, 4xxx and 5xxx ROMs. The 221x, at least, can run the new OS - it has been seen. There are benefits for existing customers - even without VGA screens.

I'm not sure that petitons will do any good. Promising never to buy another iPAQ (while all too easy with the way the new line up is looking) isn't really sensible...

But HP need a bloody nose giving to them. Between their shocking treatment of the enthusiast community and having the audacity to treat us like idiots - well, frankly I would support and participate in anythng that makes it clear to HP (and any other PPC company that may follow their example) that they can't do this and come out unscathed.

I assume that US and other nationality PC magazines generally have consumer action sections - a flood of letters to them complaining about HP being economical with the truth would get HP's name muddied among the wider technological community.

Repeated and persisitent pressure on HP by users would be good too. Letters, e-mails etc. firmly but politely pointing out that they have been talking bollocks.

Perhaps your company is a corporate customer of HP - why not see how impressed your IT department is by the HP doublespeak.

[Kati Compton]

I'm curious. What exactly in HPs release do you think is a lie?
The others have been listed already, and this one isn't a "lie" per se, but is misleading/disceitful.

They claim that they can't give SE upgrades to devices released pre June 2004 because it will make a lot of *3rd party* apps that people may have stop working. But if that's the case, then those apps wouldn't work on the new 2003SE devices either. If we're supposed to think that is a valid argument, then they shouldn't be releasing 2003SE on ANYTHING. The fact that some devices were released pre-June or post-June is irrelevant.

Plus, that doesn't work for the 6300, which isn't SE, isn't getting an SE update, and was released post-June.

[pgh1969pa]

HP doesn't owe us 2215 owners an upgrade... free or for-fee. But they DO owe us an honest answer.

HP doesn't even owe you/us an honest answer. While it would definately be in their best interest to have honest and straight forward answers, they are only legally responsible for providing what they say they will provide, honoring the warranty, and holding up their end of the EULA. I would not say they lied about their reasons but they definately placed misleading information as to why they are not providing the upgrade.

That being said, I think its great that we all have somewhere to greeve over the abandonment of or PDAs but I would seriously encourage everyone who is dissatified to simply avoid purchasing another PPC or computer from HP.

Dell is no better, Toshiba has definately errored in the past. Really, there is no PPC OEM who has not at some time punted on upgrades.

Also I think people are just a little too upset about this. Not having the upgrade is not the end of the world (or your device). Your PPC probably still serves you well without landscape. If you must have SE, buy it with a new device (buy from someone besides HP). If you don't want to spend the money, Your PPC works just fine. I'm not really sure I 'must have' SE but I ordered an Axim X30 to see if I could live without it. My guess is I can.

I speculate that HP did not offer the upgrade for the following reasons:
1. They didn't want to commit the time, money, and resources to a upgrade that only offers a small incremental change.
2. The probably don't make money off the effort.
3. People are going to be unhappy no matter what you do so they decided to do nothing. If you offered for some devices and not others people are going to be unhappy. If you offer it for everone, people will complaint about how little has changed and how much they had to pay for something that doesn't: (1) offer enought change over WM2003, (2) has bricked there machine during the upgrade process, (3) does not work they way they expect (the Toshiba 800 is an example), (4) Has bugs, (5) takes months for them to offer.
4. They are the current market leader and until their latest batch of PPCs, offered a relatively good feature set at a fair price. Sometimes corporations loose sight of the things that made them successful.

While I feel bad for myself and other here who got left in the cold, I also have some empathy for HP's position. If only they would state the true reason, I'd be impressed. On the other hand, no matter what HP states as being the true reason, many people (rightly or wrongly) would have found it to be unacceptable.

[gdowsett]

When I bought my 5450, HP made a point of highlighting that it could be upgraded but now it can't. It has 48mb rom against the 32mb of the 1710!

HP seem to have lost the plot, with the awful Jornado styling on the new product range, the IPaq is dead and after 5 I will be replacing mine with an MPx!

[christak]

...HP seem to have lost the plot, with the awful Jornado styling on the new product range, the IPaq is dead and after 5 I will be replacing mine with an MPx!

I'm leaning that way too...
8)

[pgh1969pa]

When I bought my 5450, HP made a point of highlighting that it could be upgraded but now it can't.

Can't and won't are two distinct things. Your 5450 can be upgraded. The fact is it won't. HP never stated that it would be upgraded to 2003 SE but it definately can be. Maybe your assumptions and expectations are equally to blame for your dissatifaction as are HPs decisions.

And to frank, patches and ROM updates can be considered upgrades.

[Sven Johannsen]

I'm curious. What exactly in HPs release do you think is a lie?
- The ROM size is an issue (many of the new SE devices have the same or less ROM than the older devices)
They didn't say the OS wouldn't fit. They said ' it was determine that HP would have to de-feature its ROM deliverable and exclude a large portion of the value-added and 3rd party applications in order to fit into the existing device ROM capacity. ' Now whether you think the added software is value added or not, can't see how you can say that is unequivocally not true. There's less than 3M left on the ROM in my 4155, and 2215. Sure the 5500s might fit, but doing an upgrade for just one model would be even less economical, and just as disliked.

- HP feels required to include all 3rd party apps in the same ROM
What? They never said that. They said 'The benefit of maintaining the value-added features outweighs the limited functionality that could be deployed on each of these units.' That is their opinion. Yours may be different. Doesn't make it a lie.

- major benefit is to VGA or square screens and 3rd party products would not work in landscape Again, that is an opinion on the value of SE on a QVGA screen, and an assessment that their supplied programs would be limited, 'and therefore providing no customer value.' You may disagree, but if HP sold you a PPC that went into landscape and half the bundled software didn't work in landscape, everyone would gripe about that.

I still don't see any lies. I see decision points that you may not agree with. Nowhere does it say they can't. They say, in their opinion, it's not worth it. I can't really say I disagree. All that stands out on my QVGA X30 is Landscape as an improvement over my 4155. Most of the things that benefit from landscape I can put in landscape already, Media Player, Picture viewers, Acrobat, Repligo. There are those that you can't, but PIE gains more from going to PPC formatted sites than viewing in landscape IMHO, and is 4 columns by 7 rows that much better than 3 columns by 10 rows in excel?

First HP owed folks an upgrade, then they owed them an explanation. Well, you got one. Now folks say they'd have been better off saying nothing. So vote with your wallet. buy a Toshiba. They are the only ones doing an upgrade....this time. I'm sure that is a great indicator that they will upgrade next time. Remember that HP/Compaq and Dell both did upgrades last time. Asus has no track record at all in upgrades AFAIK.

[Jaap van Ees]

Let's put this in simple balck and white terms...

The agreements that HP tried to hold Jason and otgher webmasters to was underhand, nasty and stupid - but that isn't important here.

The range of new devices is uninspired and takes HP backwards - but that isn't important here either.

Not offering upgrades is shortsighted and a mistake - but even that isn't important...

What matters here is one simple, undeniable, startk fact...

In giving their reasons for not providing the upgrade HP have out and out directly, unambiguously and cynically LIED.

We all know that the document of reasons given by HP is a pack of lies from beginning to end.

Now - I'm no fan of online petitions. I never felt that HP were obliged to provide the upgrades - even if the smart thing was to do so. But this is sheer bald faced lying - if HP had simply kept quiet they would be in a stringer moral position right now.

Hammer them. Make them realise that lying to their cutomers and treating them like idiots will not be tolerated.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Sven Johannsen]

with the awful Jornado styling on the new product range
I have to take exception to that. Not that the new styling doesn't stink, but that it is anything like a Jornada. Don't know where that is coming from. The Jornadas were exceptionally styled, fit well in the hand, where solidly built, had expansions that looked like part of the device (PCCard sleeve, keyboard), and had an as yet un-parralleled hard cover. They weren't flashy, they were professional. They were a far cry from the boxes that everyone is producing today, including HP, Toshiba, and Dell.

OK, you can all go back to HP bashing.

[KimVette]

Some of the gripes are getting a bit silly. HP is not a non-profit philanthropic organization. It is a business. They made a business decision to not invest in creating a product with little return.

They could have released the upgrade which was already developed (as evidenced by the existence of the beta testers) however by not releasing the product, they are LOSING the very customer base they are trying to force new units on.

I'll be buying a used iPAQ 5550 (since new ones are unavailable and the new units do not support sleeves) when I upgrade, and when the time comes to upgrade my corporate servers again, I'm saying NO to HP. (Right now I have Compaq Proliant servers)

Also, to answer the question of why HP did not release 2003SE: to do so would have cost Carly a flight attendant on one of her corporate Gulfstreams so she had to pull the plug on the upgrade (that's my own guess, you can think otherwise).

[ctmagnus]

If HP were to say that they are not going to offer WM2003SE updates for economic/resource reasons, but when WM2005 comes out they will look to examine the possibility of providing upgrade CDs at a cost for certain models e.g. the 5550.....then I think they would be moving in a direction to manage this whole PR disaster.

That is what I've been hoping since I first heard about the non-upgrade -- that HP stated that it considers SE upgrades to be non-important so that 2005 (or whatever the next version is) will be considered an important upgrade for existing devices.

[The Half-Ling]

I will also be saying no to HP, I will switch to a motorola mpx maybe...

Very dissapointed...

Jake-

[KimVette]

That is what I've been hoping since I first heard about the non-upgrade -- that HP stated that it considers SE upgrades to be non-important so that 2005 (or whatever the next version is) will be considered an important upgrade for existing devices.

HP considers upgrades to be important enough to mention a unit's being upgradable at the time of sale, but when it comes time to deliver on that advertised feature, HP falls short. This my friends, is in legal terms called FRAUD.

[baker]

Love the Invent...reasons....

[sracer]

That is what I've been hoping since I first heard about the non-upgrade -- that HP stated that it considers SE upgrades to be non-important so that 2005 (or whatever the next version is) will be considered an important upgrade for existing devices.

HP considers upgrades to be important enough to mention a unit's being upgradable at the time of sale, but when it comes time to deliver on that advertised feature, HP falls short. This my friends, is in legal terms called FRAUD.
I've never seen HP mention upgradeability. Can you provide a link to that? That would be very helpful.

[Duncan]

They didn't say the OS wouldn't fit. They said ' it was determine that HP would have to de-feature its ROM deliverable and exclude a large portion of the value-added and 3rd party applications in order to fit into the existing device ROM capacity. ' Now whether you think the added software is value added or not, can't see how you can say that is unequivocally not true. There's less than 3M left on the ROM in my 4155, and 2215. Sure the 5500s might fit, but doing an upgrade for just one model would be even less economical, and just as disliked.

So - they can fit stuff on the new devices AND the new OS - but not on older devices with same size ROMs?

The lie is in the basic facts - of course they can fit everything important into the space - and also in trying to tell us that this is their reason...

If you don't think they are lying you must be an unusually trusting soul - I've heard enough missing homework excuses in my time to know when I'm being fibbed to...

[Paragon]

I think the real issue here isn't just an HP one, but one of upgrades in general. The whole issue can be confusing. It is my understanding that under Microsoft's licencing agreement that Pocket PCs must have a flashable, upgradable ROM. It does NOT state that OEMs must provide ROM upgrades. To do so would be a very difficult proposition, since they have no idea what future changes may take place in OSs. So when someone like HP states that their devices are upgradable, but they decide against providing one they have done nothing misleading. The problem is that we have come to believe that being able to upgrade a device means that it can/should/will be upraded if we wish.

I would like to see Microsoft and their licencee's take some time and address this issue to see what can be done so that people have a better understanding of what upgrade choices they may or may not have in the future. I don't know what that outcome could be, but hopefully they could work something out that offers the consumer a more satisfying outcome.

One thing I wanted to point out, is that all the comments we have made about the H2215 running SE may be a bit misleading as well. I believe that the SE ROM flashed to those devices lacked some things like WMP ect. Perhaps someone with one of them can confirm or deny.

I think HP biggest mistake in all this is that they made some very, very STUPID comments as to why they weren't offering the upgrade. They should have just said that they made a business decision not to offer and upgrade and leave it at that....lumps and all. ;).....well maybe if they said YES it would have been even better.

Dave

[Jonathon Watkins]

I think HP biggest mistake in all this is that they made some very, very STUPID comments as to why they weren't offering the upgrade. They should have just said that they made a business decision not to offer and upgrade and leave it at that....lumps and all. ;)

And that's exactly the reason why I put this on the front page. :)

Leaving aside the arguments about the upgrade itself, HP's 'reasons' are patently.......... more than misleading, nay downright deceptive........ :?

We expected better from them than than. THAT's the reason folks are feeling so betrayed/hurt. We know we are being ....taken advantage of.... Do HP even realise or care?

Goodwill counts for a lot. It's listed on HP's balance sheet as an 'intangible asset'. It seems a lot more intangible lately........

[pgh1969pa]

They could have released the upgrade which was already developed (as evidenced by the existence of the beta testers) ....

First, the ROM released to developers was to aid them in creating compatible software. Next, everyone would be complaining if they release an incomplete ROM now would they. The ROM given to developers was incomplete and would need work to be consumer ready.

Let's not mislead people into believing what developers recieved was ready for prime time.

[pgh1969pa]

HP considers upgrades to be important enough to mention a unit's being upgradable at the time of sale, but when it comes time to deliver on that advertised feature, HP falls short. This my friends, is in legal terms called FRAUD.

And HP (and its customers) has taken advantage of this feature by offering downloadable, flashable, ROM updates for these units. If you ever installed a ROM update, you upgraded your machine. For instance, WPA is an upgrade. It was not on the original ROM and HP now offers it free of change to existing users.

Let's not beat HP up for misleading people if we are going to come to the web and make equally irresponsible statements too.

[Duncan]

Leaving aside the arguments about the upgrade itself, HP's 'reasons' are patently.......... more than misleading, nay downright deceptive........ :?

We expected better from them than than. THAT's the reason folks are feeling so betrayed/hurt. We know we are being ....taken advantage of.... Do HP even realise or care?

Goodwill counts for a lot. It's listed on HP's balance sheet as an 'intangible asset'. It seems a lot more intangible lately........

...and that is the point in a nutshell. I'm not bothered by HP not offering an upgrade - I don't even own an iPAQ these days - but they should have been straight - and however you look at it they have chosen to decieve instead...

[Deus]

Plain and simple .... Toshiba offers the upgrade. Actions speak volumes. And so will loss of customers.

Not much else to say.

[Sven Johannsen]

If you don't think they are lying you must be an unusually trusting soul..

Actually I am generally willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Not saying the reasons stated are the best reasons, but I see nothing untruthful. The fact that you can fit what they fit into the new devices, doesn't prove that they could fit what they wanted to fit in the old ones. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if you added all the extra stuff in my 4155 on top of the SE build that it wouldn't fit. So you leave something out and folks complain about that. They sure did when MP and Reader were RAM installs in a 2002 to 2003 upgrade.

Fact is it was a business decision and no one would let that lay. So you got a marketing answer to a question they had no obligation to answer about an upgrade they had no obligation to provide.

[Jonathon Watkins]

They could have released the upgrade which was already developed (as evidenced by the existence of the beta testers) ....

First, the ROM released to developers was to aid them in creating compatible software. Next, everyone would be complaining if they release an incomplete ROM now would they. The ROM given to developers was incomplete and would need work to be consumer ready.

Let's not mislead people into believing what developers recieved was ready for prime time.

That's not what most folk are saying Pgh1969pa. The point is, that there WAS a ROM available that could have been developed into the 'real deal'(TM). HP *were* working on it, then seemingly abandoned it.

[JimPAQ]

What if we looked at this from a different angle? Think about it this way...

HP spent all this time and money to produce this new line of PDAs. For the last year everyone has been dieing to find out what the devices look like. During that time HP was probably fanning the flames, getting people interested. They may have even let a few little secrets slip out, just to keep people salivating over the new lineup of devices. Sales are down, and they’re thinking these new devices will be the big come back that they need to get the market going again. And, take a nice chunk of it away from the competition possibly. HP will truly be the king of the PDA market if everything goes as planned. But wait, when the first photos hit the Internet, everyone says “eeewwwwww these things are butt ugly” and naturally turn their attention to upgrading their existing devices rather then buying any of the new products. Management at HP is shocked, and wonders what to do. They panic and being a typical management team, similar to any other company, they do the typical knee jerk reaction thing. I suspect that at least one meeting went like this.

If we provide an upgrade, we will surely take sales away from our new devices, even more so, since everyone thinks they look like crap. Our only choice is to back peddle on the upgrade thereby forcing users to buy our new devices even if, as I said, everyone thinks they look like crap. And, we will have to accept the fact that some users will hate the company for the rest of their lives. If we can just squeeze a reasonable profit from our new line, we can quickly come out with a new and "improved" line of PDAs with a better form factor that even some of those that left during this fiasco will love. And we will agree to never speak of this again. Oh and also, we will offer John as the scapegoat, since he was out sick today and most of us don’t like him.

Maybe that's what is going on at HP?

--Jim

[Jonathon Watkins]

HP considers upgrades to be important enough to mention a unit's being upgradable at the time of sale, but when it comes time to deliver on that advertised feature, HP falls short. This my friends, is in legal terms called FRAUD.

And HP (and its customers) has taken advantage of this feature by offering downloadable, flashable, ROM updates for these units. If you ever installed a ROM update, you upgraded your machine. For instance, WPA is an upgrade. It was not on the original ROM and HP now offers it free of change to existing users.

Let's not beat HP up for misleading people if we are going to come to the web and make equally irresponsible statements too.

I agree that fraud is too strong a term, but offering patches and bug fixes is hardly an upgrade. A dictionay definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=upgrade) of an upgrade is: "A software program that provides added enhancements over an earlier version."

Heck, even adding WPA doesn't really count as an upgrade, as it's basically a patch to fix to the shoddy Wifi security that was broken from the start. :?

[Blue Zero]

Day by day, I am getting more angry with HP's evil tactic.
You dont get customer loyalty by being dishonest, and never will.

On the same note, just recently I found out that the cheapest HP printer I brought also had the most expensive ink in the whole market!
Pure SCAMage! And this is along many other things... damn you HP

You've lost one customer from your ever shriking list, and many more of my friends, families and co-workers :evil:

[pgh1969pa]

That's not what most folk are saying Pgh1969pa. The point is, that there WAS a ROM available that could have been developed into the 'real deal'(TM). HP *were* working on it, then seemingly abandoned it.

Jonathan,

I don't go by what most people say but what the relavant facts are. If most poeple agree with the facts, thats fine with me. The ROM was not a finished version.

[Paragon]

Well one thing is for sure. HP is never going to release a beta version of a ROM like that again....just to have it comeback to haunt them, regardless of the facts. ;)

Dave

[Jonathon Watkins]

Jonathan,

It's Jonathon by the way. Thanks. :)

If most poeple agree with the facts, thats fine with me. The ROM was not a finished version.

And that's not the point Pgh1969pa. You're putting up a staw man (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Straw_man) argument.

The point was, the ROM was a work in progress and could have completed. There is no technical reason (as far as we know) that PPC2003SE could not have been fitted on the current models. Heck, if it can fir into the rz1715 (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30787), it can fit into anything! :wink:

BTW, I just noticed this Inquirer article (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17642) about the situation. I just love their article title:

HP infuriates iPaq users over Windows SE upgrade

Sorry, we can't be bothered to supply it


Ouch. :lol:

[pgh1969pa]

I agree that fraud is too strong a term, but offering patches and bug fixes is hardly an upgrade. A dictionay definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=upgrade) of an upgrade is: "A software program that provides added enhancements over an earlier version."

Heck, even adding WPA doesn't really count as an upgrade, as it's basically a patch to fix to the shoddy Wifi security that was broken from the start. :?

By the definition you posted, WPA is an upgrade. WPA is an enhancement whether or not you or I view view it as such. HP was under no obligation (legally, morally, or otherwise) to provide WPA. Here we have a difference of opinion.

The value of an 'upgrade' is a very subjective one. But addtional functionality is more objective. Wedge 'A' was not capable of performing trick 'B' until upgraded. Now wedge 'A' can perform trick 'B'. Sounds like an enhancement to me. Using your logic, I could argue that WM2003 SE is not an upgrade either if I want to rationalize and deconstruct the reasons why the new functionality should have been included in the first place.

[alex_kac]

That's not what most folk are saying Pgh1969pa. The point is, that there WAS a ROM available that could have been developed into the 'real deal'(TM). HP *were* working on it, then seemingly abandoned it.

Jonathan,

I don't go by what most people say but what the relavant facts are. If most poeple agree with the facts, thats fine with me. The ROM was not a finished version.

Many times I've written in features into PI that I had to later remove because I just couldn't get that last 20-5% of the dev working in the timeframe I had given myself or I found some major issues with the idea in practice.

Not to give anyone a free pass, but it does happen so having a beta does not connote feasibility.

[pgh1969pa]

Jonathan,

It's Jonathon by the way. Thanks. :)

If most poeple agree with the facts, thats fine with me. The ROM was not a finished version.

And that's not the point Pgh1969pa. You're putting up a staw man (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Straw_man) argument.

The point was, the ROM was a work in progress and could have completed. There is no technical reason (as far as we know) that PPC2003SE could not have been fitted on the current models. Heck, if it can fir into the rz1715 (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30787), it can fit into anything! :wink:

BTW, I just noticed this Inquirer article (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17642) about the situation. I just love their article title:

HP infuriates iPaq users over Windows SE upgrade

Sorry, we can't be bothered to supply it


Ouch. :lol:

Well Jonathon......

I was going to accuss you of the same. If you read the post I was repsonding to, you may see that the suggestion was why don't the relese the ROM that was given to developers. You will also see that I said the reason was because it was not a complete ROM. Of course they could have finished it! I could sworn the question was ...why can't they just release this developer ROM.

Of course they could have finished...nowhere did I say they couldn't. It's best to read what I said and don't imply any other meanings.

[OskiO]

It all comes down to time and money and HP doesn't have what they feel is enough of both. If it drives you to buy a different brand so be it. If it disappoints you because they don't want to toss hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe millions) at old handhelds then tough. Life is not fair. Get used to it. I just got my HP and would like to have SE but do I need it? No, I would just LIKE it have it. Who NEEDS it???

Blame the real problem, Microsoft. Why don't they just release PPC2003SE as a purchased download and let the vendors release drivers and add-ins? Don't know if it is technically possible, but I would think it should be.

C

[Sven Johannsen]

BTW, I just noticed this Inquirer article (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17642) about the situation.

Oh, well, that clinches it then...The Inquirer is on your side. :roll:

P.S. I still agree with you about cameras :wink:

[Sven Johannsen]

Blame the real problem, Microsoft. Why don't they just release PPC2003SE as a purchased download and let the vendors release drivers and add-ins? Don't know if it is technically possible, but I would think it should be.

It's not purely technical, but legal as well. MSs partners and MS have agreements as to what will and will not happen. In this case who supports your PPC? Hint, not MS. If MS provided an upgrade, assuming they could, technically, which they can't, without reverse engineering and/or providing proprietary OEM code, the OEM could legitimately cease support. And you'd gripe about that.

Same happens on desktops, so don't try to draw that analogy. If the OEM does not support installing XP on a machine they sold you with 98 or ME on it, you are on your own, baby. That never happens? Yea, right, ask me about it. You might get away with it, since the OEM for the parts might supply drivers, but when was the last time you tried to get drivers for the sound system in your PPC to run a different closed OS.

[BugDude10]

As an aside, is there any reason (besides the fact that Dell, too, is screwing its existing customers by refusing to upgrade) that we HP users shouldn't just replace our iPaqs with X30s? The specs look pretty enticing...

[Rob Alexander]

Same happens on desktops, so don't try to draw that analogy. If the OEM does not support installing XP on a machine they sold you with 98 or ME on it, you are on your own, baby. That never happens? Yea, right, ask me about it. You might get away with it, since the OEM for the parts might supply drivers, but when was the last time you tried to get drivers for the sound system in your PPC to run a different closed OS.

Right you are on that one, Sven. I recently needed to upgrade an HP desktop to XP Pro from the XP Home that came on it. As part of the rebuild (formatted and installed from scratch), I needed to install the chipset drivers. Of course, they are the same chipset drivers for either version. The problem was that the download from HP had four different chipsets in the zip file and no indication of how to tell which one you had. The documentation didn't tell me and I couldn't see the name on the chips themselves on the system board.

So I thought it would be easy to just call HP, give them the computer's serial number and have them tell me which chipset it has. Simple, right? Do you know, he wouldn't tell me what chipset was in the computer once he found out that I was installing XP Pro? I mean, what are they thinking... that the physical chips are going to morph to be something different just because I upgrade the OS?

Of course, he was quite polite as he read that line from his script over and over, and his English was even passable, but the stupidity of that is still beyond belief. I finally had to have him bump me up to the supervisor who reluctantly agreed to have him tell me the magic secret words that had been sitting on his computer screen the whole time.

I used to be a real HP fan, but in the past year, they have probably lost me as a customer. I'm not taking a vow or anything, but their offering would have to be pretty compelling indeed for me to risk having to deal with HP again.

[felixdd]

Sven, you are right that they worded the FAQ so that all their statements were "in their opinion" -- like it was their opinion that they had to strip down the ROM too much to "fit" onto the older devices.

But I think part of the fact as to why people are so angry is because there is seemingly no logical rationale behind their opinion. Sure I can say, "IMHO, a pound of bricks is heavier than a pound of feathers." But then there probably isn't much justification I can give for it.

And isn't that the purpose of their FAQ? To justify why the upgrade doesn't exist? But what good is their justification if it's flawed on so many levels?

Consider this. They said that they considerd the potential incompatibilities against their/third party software too big an issue to upgrade the older series to 2K3 SE. Yet they release the new devices with them. A few things wrong with this picture:

1) If the programs are compatible with the new devices running 2K3 SE, then why won't they be with the old devices? Then their logical progression here is inconsistent. And I think the engineers at HP are smart enough not to make such a blatant error. Which leaves this to be a sleezy excuse for a financially driven decision.

2) If the programs in question are incompatible with 2K3 SE, then why are they releasing new devices that run this, according to their reasoning, fundamentally flawed OS? Are they doing to try to push sales to customers that will inevitably find out that their devices won't work as expected? That's pretty sleezy.

3) The most likely scenario is that most programs will work on 2K3 SE (either in portrait or landscape), and some won't. But that's been the case with going from 2000 to 2002, and from 2002 to 2003. What made them do things differently this time than the last? And if they honestly felt that they wanted to omit the upgrade because of a minority of programs, then, IMHO, that's a pretty dumb decision and shows how "thoughtful" HP really is.

Again, the rants and complaints have already been dying down over the last few days. People tend to forget bad reviews after a while. And not all the devices slated to be released have actually been reviewed or hit the market in a major way yet. If HP kept silent about the whole thing, mostly people would've moved on. Heck people weren't that angry about HP's initial announcement in the first place, as they were empathetic with the then presumed financially-driven decision.

But this FAQ shows how HP: 1) is incredibly stupid, 2) thinks their customer base is incredibly stupid, or 3) just doesn't care. Any way you cut it, this new act has created negative publicity among the crowd, who feels hurt, alienated, abandoned, and (me personally) insulted. This will probably hurt the sales on their new line more than if they just kept their yap shut.

[felixdd]

There's only two possible "ways out" for HP to quell the storm that they started:

1) Play "hero" and develop/release the upgrade. Of course, you'll always have the conspiracy theorists who say that was HP's whole plan, to work up the crowd and then release the upgrade on the premises that "they listen to their customers." And while that could be entirely possible, most of us will probably too happy playing with the uprades, or pleased with ourselves for "making a difference." to actually care. Unless, of course, word leaks that the conspiracy theorists were right, in which case there will be more anger. But either way, their customer base will remain forever wary.

2) Ignore the pleas and complains and move on. They risk losing their loyal customers, but are saved financially so they can recuperate by finding more alternative customers. But that means they are investing in a future that they aren't sure exists. They can also make it the "new normal policy" to not offer OS upgrades on all subsequent devices, and eventually the storm will pass as we will be "used to it."

But at this point in time, many of us are also shocked at HP's seemingly new face. First the lack of a OS upgrade, then the lackluster device specs and prices, followed by the proposterous demands on enthusiast sites, and finally this FAQ? Isolated, each incident could have been brushed of easily, or even justified. But now, many of us who thought that HP also stands for "Hears our Pleas" are now reconsidering their impression of the company. I know I am.

[epdm2be]

As an aside, is there any reason (besides the fact that Dell, too, is screwing its existing customers by refusing to upgrade) that we HP users shouldn't just replace our iPaqs with X30s? The specs look pretty enticing...

Yes, their shoddy products with just way too many defects at initial purchase.

In that respect it's no use to have a swift return policy if most of your stuff is broken. Read the many posts of ppl complaining about the bad build quility of their X30 pda's. The same applies to HP (I haven't forgotten the ******** I had with my Jornada 568, folks)

Appart from that you mentioned the major reason to stay away from Dell. Their unwillingness to provide future upgrades now (excactly like HP), wave the path at when you want to upgrade your prospective Dell X30i when WM2004 arives.

Unfortunatly the other players aren't any better either :-( As someone mentioned in this thread. Asus hasn't got any track records of upgrades at all. What about Siemens PDA's?

The only thing we DO know is that Toshiba "seems" to have learned the hard way. But then again they're leaving the market so why should we care about them, right?

"They" say PDA's are dead. They're right. "They" killed them.

EPDM

[juni]

many of us who thought that HP also stands for "Hears our Pleas"

The pleas of over 8200 people:

http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK3SE/petition.html

[Jonathon Watkins]

If you read the post I was repsonding to, you may see that the suggestion was why don't the relese the ROM that was given to developers

Fair enough Pgh1969pa. Well that's the ROM issue bottomed out. What's next? :wink:

I do take your point that you were responding to the ROM argument and not forwarding it yourself. Still, if HP were flashing device with Beta versions of PPC2003SE, it makes you think they were planning to release it, ................ doesn't it? :)

[Jonathon Watkins]

BTW, I just noticed this Inquirer article (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17642) about the situation.

Oh, well, that clinches it then...The Inquirer is on your side. :roll:

I was merely pointing out the humorous title of "Sorry, we can't be bothered to supply it " (OK, and also showing that other take the same line). As you know, the Inq is never wrong! :lol:

I'm not sure I have a 'side' by the way. I reported this news and am interested in the 'truth'. I may argue one way one minute, another way another minute. I am interested in testing the arguments and how well they hold up to closer investigation.

P.S. I still agree with you about cameras :wink:

Good man! 8)

Right, back to the deadly hand to hand combat! :bangin: (Not).

That's what I really like about these boards. You can debate all the points of an argument, testing hypothesis with counter arguments and counter hypothesis, come away with your mind changed or confirmed and then have good discussions later with folks you were disagreeing with. As Iron sharpens Iron......

[cweeks]

Not to get too far off topic...

So far, HPs service for me has been great. Just recently I bought one of the 23" LCD monitors. The screen had two black bands across the bottom so I called their support line and they said they would ship a new one out that day. A couple of days later when it didn't arrive they said it had been back-ordered. I didn't complain, but the next day one of the support case workers called to tell me she had located one and it had been shipped. *The next day* a man drove up, unpacked my brand new monitor, set it up, and took off with the old one. 8O

Not too shabby.

Then, of course, the *next* day another monitor showed up via UPS. :devilboy:

My wife made me send it back. :(

While I own a 4155, and I hope they recitify their issues with the upgrade, I'm pretty happy with the machine and will just wait until it craps out before I worry about getting a new one. Could be a long time, though... I still have to pay off the monitor. :D

[rugerx]

As much as I LOVE my 4155, this is most likely the last HP product I buy.

I really dont know what they are thinking not letting us at least PAY for an upgrade... /sigh

[lapchinj]

I don't think that its right not to offer an upgrade if the PDA can run it. I'm just trying to get the maximum life out of a great PDA (3800 series). If the 3800 didn't do what I had to do then I would buy a newer model. But I can't justify that just to have the latest and greatest. My 3700 series iPAQ has already had an OS brain transplant to Linux and works great (no AF or PI though) and will be good for another few years.

Right now there are no funds available to go the route HP wants - that's to buy a new one. And besides if I had 600 bucks I think that I would blow it on a Toshiba e800. I drove a Chevy for 25 years (new & used) but the deal that Ford gave me was great. I still love Chevy but it's not the only game in town anymore making a deal. So lookout HP because Toshiba is making some good deals worth trying. :D

Jeff-

[Darius Wey]

I think HP should be an abbreviation for High Price, Hacked-up Performance, Hardly-any Prospects.

This document is about as low as HP can go. Boy those Asus devices sure look good! ;)

That petition grows by the minute. I hope HP take note of what people are saying out there. I think anti-HP sentiment just grew to an all-time high!

[joelevi]

When I bought my 5450, HP made a point of highlighting that it could be upgraded but now it can't.

Can't and won't are two distinct things. Your 5450 can be upgraded. The fact is it won't. HP never stated that it would be upgraded to 2003 SE but it definately can be. Maybe your assumptions and expectations are equally to blame for your dissatifaction as are HPs decisions.

And to frank, patches and ROM updates can be considered upgrades.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree... How can his 5450 be upgraded if HP doesn't release an upgrade? Yes, it's technically possible to upgrade it, but it's practically impossible if the only party holding the ability to upgrade it doesn't release an upgrade.

Also, patches and ROM updates are considered just that, "updates." They're intended to address known problems/bugs/issues and add little (if any) added functionality or benefit (hence, not an "upgrade").

[Rob Alexander]

many of us who thought that HP also stands for "Hears our Pleas"

The pleas of over 8200 people:

http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK3SE/petition.html

I wasn't planning to sign the petition, but they've really irritated me. Besides, when I looked at the link, there were 8299 signatures, and it just seemed 'right' to make it an even 8300.

[iPAQ_ace]

Anyone notice that HP states that they have NO INTENTION of offering WM2003SE for the newly-released 6300?

Yes I have and the thought has seriously crossed my mind to wait for Moto's MPx for my personal converged device.

[Jude]

And honestly, how much more would it really have taken to get that partly-done WM2003SE 2210 ROM ready? Less than 32 MB of mostly-working code really isn't a heckuva lot to work on. I don't think it's anything close to say, reconfiguring interplanetary spacecraft, or patching the latest 3D first-person shooter. If they were worried about costs couldn't they have just outsourced it to some software firm in India or something? Or sold some of their extravagantly expensive furniture at corporate HQ just to finance the darned tweaks?

[Sven Johannsen]

Sure I can say, "IMHO, a pound of bricks is heavier than a pound of feathers." But then there probably isn't much justification I can give for it.

I can. Would you rather be hit by a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers in a pillowcase? :)

Now for the poster wondering about the X30, what HP would you be replacing? If it is a 5500, 2215, 4155, I wouldn't. Those models are still exceptional devices and are not being dumped. There was even a ROM update to the 4155 while we were debating HPs abandonement. You just won't get SE on them. IMHO, big deal. If you have no PPC or you have an older one that really needs replacing, I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.

[Take1]

If I were ASUS, I would:

1. Advertise an exclusive deal (free metal case (or something), first in the US to get them, etc.) on this site for the upcoming models. They should clearly state an intent to upgrade or not to upgrade these models when WM4 comes out.

2. Send Carly and Michael (Dell) a fruit basket thanking them for screwing their customers and for all the business sent their way.

[felixdd]

...I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.

Why d'you have both?

[Paragon]

...I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.

Why d'you have both?

W?BHC :)

[szamot]

It is all nice and all what you guys are saying but really it just boils down to a one simple word. GREED. Why offer something for free if you can force people to buy something new. We live in a very disposable society, at least on this side of the pond. This way you make more money with less effort. Typical, and very American, way of doing business.

[Paragon]

Why offer something for free if you can force people to buy something new.

Especially if your new line is a pile of crud and your old line blows it out of the water with an SE upgrade. I think HP discovered their new line was a dud and decided not to make their existing ones and more appealing. Given the choice between a 1940 with an SE upgrade and a new "rz", which would you take? ;)

Dave

[szamot]

Why offer something for free if you can force people to buy something new.

Especially if your new line is a pile of crud and your old line blows it out of the water with an SE upgrade. I think HP discovered their new line was a dud and decided not to make their existing ones and more appealing. Given the choice between a 1940 with an SE upgrade and a new "rz", which would you take? ;)

Dave

To tell you the truth neither, I will stick to my trusted 5450 but if I was hard pressed I would take 1940.

[Sven Johannsen]

...I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.

Why d'you have both?
Actually I have 4. A 2215, 4155, X5 and X30. I got the X30 to play with SE which I wasn't going to get any other way any time soon. I got it for $250 shipped. It's the 3l2Mhz model. I didn't need more than that. I am actually impressed with the device and Dell's support. The 4155 styling is just so much nicer and SE doesn't add that much. IMHO. Certainly not enough to get this worked up over. The 4155 will be good for sometime. HP certainly doesn't have a worthwhile replacement. If I had to replace it I'd likely go with the 624mhz X30 today. You can pick that up for under $300 often. I would like to see what Dell does about VGA first :)

[Janak Parekh]

...I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.
Why d'you have both?
Actually I have 4.
All you had to say is "'cuz I'm an MVP". ;) It would be an interesting poll to see how many Pocket PCs the average MVP has...

--janak

[Kati Compton]

It is all nice and all what you guys are saying but really it just boils down to a one simple word. GREED. Why offer something for free if you can force people to buy something new.
Well, I think saying that one particular company is greedy is unfair. I think most businesses try very hard to make as much money as they can. ;)

Like I've said before - I'd be upset if I had a current HP and they weren't offering an upgrade. That in itself wouldn't make me swear off HP. It's the way they're handling the situation that bothers me. Plus, all the customer service horror stories that are coming out of the woodwork...

[Sven Johannsen]

...I'd take a good look at the X30. I have one, and on it's own it is a nice box. For the price I think it beats my 4155, but having both, the 4155 is the one that goes with me.
Why d'you have both?
Actually I have 4.
All you had to say is "'cuz I'm an MVP". ;) It would be an interesting poll to see how many Pocket PCs the average MVP has...

--janak

Don't y'all get the idea they were given to me though, I paid for every one. The chicken and the egg story here is that I enjoy PPCs and helping when I can. I have bought some over time just to get familiar with that brand and/or that OS. Did that for years before I was honored with MVP. And Janak, there is no average MVP ;) It would be interesting to know the average number of PPCs a mobile devices MVP has though. I figure I'm about average in that respect.

[Mark Johnson]

The funny thing to me is that I didn't really care about the upgrade for my 2215; I'm not even sure if I'd buy it at $30. But I find myself irritated at this nonsense they're asking us to swallow.


It is ironic that HP has managed to call such heat in on themselves for not making available a failrly unimpressive upgrade people weren't that excited about anyway. Once again, it's not what you say, it's how you say it...

[Sven Johannsen]

Like I've said before - I'd be upset if I had a current HP and they weren't offering an upgrade. That in itself wouldn't make me swear off HP. It's the way they're handling the situation that bothers me. Plus, all the customer service horror stories that are coming out of the woodwork...

I'm not sure any course of action, or inaction, here would have been met with adulation, short of providing an upgrade. You are right, the customer service stories are a bit disconcerting, though I have always found HPs support stellar when I needed it, and that is across PCs, monitors, printers, and PPCs. Certainly the current situation will tend to bring out more stories. Sad fact may be that HP may actually be in the business to make money. Unfortunately it seems when most companies are faced with competitive pressure, they tend to cut in places that are costing money, and are hard to figure return, like customer service.

[felixdd]

I'm not sure any course of action, or inaction, here would have been met with adulation, short of providing an upgrade.

Yeah but until their present course of action they haven't stirred up as much hate and anger. The complaints were already dying down, and most people had already accepted the fact that HP can't provide it for financial reasons. So why try to convince them otherwise, and do such a piss-poor job of it at that? Most of the people here are angry at HP's new way of doing things, not the upgrade in itself.

Oh and you have way too much money -- 4 devices?! :eek: Can I have one? ;)

[pradike]

HP has just lost a customer for life. As an owner of 2 HP PC.s, an IPAQ, and 2 HP printers -- I was looking for another printer and a second digital camera, and they sure won't be HP -- I'm fed up and I can't take it anymore!!! :evil:

I also plan to be a leading spokesman at every opportunity to DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM BUYING HP products.

PERHAPS A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT FOR THEIR FALSE ADVERTISING ON THEIR PACKAGES SAYING "UPGRADABLE" IS IN ORDER ????

HP IS CLEARLY ABANDONING PEOPLE TO SELL MORE NEW IPAQS - it's that simple. This decision comes just months after the announcement of "a whole new generation of Ipaqs" - coincidence - NOT!

HP can take their IPAQs and use them for paperweights from now on. I plan to get rid of much of my HP equipment, and will replace everything some time by year end with NON HP equipment.

These folks could EASILY provide this upgrade, but ARE MAKING A DELIBERATE CHOICE not to do so.

HP CLEARLY IS NOT CUSTOMER FRIENDLY - they can take their products and stuff em!

There, now I feel better. :mrgreen:

[jpaq]

Find: HP
Replace: Dell

Ipaq owners are not alone.

My how the tables turn. Toshiba is now wears the crown of best support. The sad thing is that they get it right as they leave the market. Too bad.

It would seem that the demise of the PPC/Windows Mobile platform might be at the hands of the vendors and less at the hands of MS, as we previously thought.

Samsung, Phillips, JVC, Sony, Palm One (there have been rumors), Psion. Where are you? We need another PPC vendor. Over here in the states, we've run fresh out of options. Bring your innovation, your motivation, and your competitive nature. Just make sure you bring your best customer support as well.

[iPAQ_ace]

Especially if your new line is a pile of crud and your old line blows it out of the water with an SE upgrade. I think HP discovered their new line was a dud and decided not to make their existing ones and more appealing. Given the choice between a 1940 with an SE upgrade and a new "rz", which would you take? ;)

Very well said Dave.

[Kati Compton]

I'm not sure any course of action, or inaction, here would have been met with adulation, short of providing an upgrade.
Of course not. In fact, I bet even that wouldn't have brought adulation, as it was so expected that they would.
Sad fact may be that HP may actually be in the business to make money. Unfortunately it seems when most companies are faced with competitive pressure, they tend to cut in places that are costing money, and are hard to figure return, like customer service.
I don't begrudge them wanting to make money. Which is why I don't think they should have paid someone to come up with those lists of reasons why they weren't providing the upgrade, and should just have said "We have made a business decision to not provide the upgrade." ;)

It's very upsetting that customer service tends to suffer when there are cutbacks. I really do think that causes more problems than it solves for a company. But you're right that it's not as obvious on a bottom line.

I forgot to mention that I also think their "HP Evangelist" policy is ridiculous, and that, coupled with the lame statement, false promises that the SE upgrade would be available, etc are more why *I* am a bit less likely to buy a 4700.

Oh, and swearing off "forever" is too long, as we've seen by Toshiba. I've been laughing at "HP should have great customer support like Toshiba." ;)

[Jonathon Watkins]

Toshiba is now wears the crown of best support. The sad thing is that they get it right as they leave the market. Too bad.

Well, personally I doubt Toshiba are leaving the PPC market. The e830 seems to be coming along just nicely......

[sracer]

One question for all those who are "swearing off HP"....

What other PPC manufacturer has released a ROM update that corrects the notification db and alarm bugs in WM2003?

[zcmc1066]

Why is every one acting surprised this is standard operating producer for HP.

The Jornada 420 series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)
The Jornada 54X series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)
The Jornada 56X series no damn reason given


This type of practice is typically of HP they make quality units a don’t support them with upgrades patches yes upgrades no

[D.psi]

Why is every one acting surprised this is standard operating producer for HP.

The Jornada 420 series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)
The Jornada 54X series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)

This is hardly fair, as an owner of a 430SE and 548, I know for a fact that their ROMs were not flashable. This was not mandated functionality until PPC 2002. So yes, I'm used to not getting an upgrade for my handhelds.

The Beta release earlier this year did make it seem like it was pending, so I've held of flashing for 1.10xxx, so maybe I'll now reflash our 2210's.

It is disappointing not to get the upgrade release, but I won't cry over it. By the time I get a new handheld the current lack luster lineup will be well into its decline.

D.psi

[Sven Johannsen]

Why is every one acting surprised this is standard operating producer for HP.
The Jornada 56X series no damn reason given


The fact that they announced dropping the Jornada line entirely prior to a potential upgrade wasn't sufficient? Not many OEMs provide upgrades to models no longer in production.

[Janak Parekh]

Don't y'all get the idea they were given to me though, I paid for every one.
Oops, sorry if I made that implication. Not at all. I've bought quite a few Pocket PCs over the years with my hard-earned cash, too. My last one, the e805, was again on my dime when a good price appeared on Buy.com.

Did that for years before I was honored with MVP. And Janak, there is no average MVP ;)
I know, I was being humorous. ;) I'm not on these boards because I'm an MVP per se; I'm on these boards because I like the community. :D

--janak

[D.psi]

Why is every one acting surprised this is standard operating producer for HP.
The Jornada 56X series no damn reason given


The fact that they announced dropping the Jornada line entirely prior to a potential upgrade wasn't sufficient? Not many OEMs provide upgrades to models no longer in production.

As far as it goes the decision not to upgrade the Jornada 56x made good fiscal sense in the short term... But since they were discontinuing the Jornada line, it would have been nice had they thrown the loyal Jornada customers the upgrade (even at a nominal $30 cost) as a bone to placate them.

I am happy with my 2210, though somewhat miffed that there is AFAIK no official fix to the alarm problem. Does the 2003 1.10xx Rom from HP fix this issue or is a patch still required? My 430SE had absolutely no problems with this functionality, and neither did my 548... Just baffles the mind (I know this has been discussed to death in other threads).

D.psi

[dugn]

I know I'm at the very end of this lengthy thread, but I was just about to ditch my Jornada 568 and start looking around for its replacement. Based on the lackluster lineup HP is offering and the fact that - scratches and all - my 568 continues to do everything I really need a Pocket PC to do, I'm sticking with it!

It's sad there's no upgrade path - and yes, that helps dissuade me from considering another HP. But ultimately, I got lucky and picked a great unit that has stood up to the test of time...and I'm sticking with it!

Long Live the 568 - the last GREAT HP Pocket PC!

[christak]

"Censorship" reared its ugly head over on the HP forums recently... Posts are selectively being deleted -- even two whole threads are gone -- to the tune of over 150 posts. All the posts were in response to HP's decision not to offer the WM2003SE upgrade... At least one user was banned from the forum as well... Really sad that things have come to this.

IMHO, HP really needs to go "public" and straighten out this mess...
:(

[Sven Johannsen]

"Censorship" reared its ugly head over on the HP forums recently...

IMHO, HP really needs to go "public" and straighten out this mess...
:(

It's their board. I would venture a guess that there have been some less than civil posts over there as well. I have enjoyed the parrying here, as it has remained relatively reserved in that respect...passionate, but with restraint.

I think they have gone public. Problem is folks don't like the answers/explanations to the point of calling them liars. What should they do now? Come clean and admit they aren't providing the update because they think it will cost more than it will net? Well, duh. That's a fiscal decision that can be WAG'd.

On the intangible side there is the negative impact of folks being upset (for a while, look at the Toshiba owners) and maybe swearing off HP. There is the positive impact of providing a ROM upgrade to users at a loss, making it less likely they will need to buy a new PPC, and will forget the benevolence by the time they do need a new one.

On one side I have semi-real figures. On the other I have touchy feelly ill will, good will, trade offs, that have historically had short half lives.

I personnally will look at what is available the next time PPC $$s are burning a hole in my pocket and make a decision about what is a good value at the time. Past performance in providing OS ugrades wouldn't even be a major factor. All the OEMs have a bad record there anyway, just at different times.

[christak]

Agreed... It is their board, there were some "less than flattering" posts, and I'm frankly surprised that HP "allowed" the threads to be started/continue after the response was so negative. Having said that, I think you've agreed that HP's "excuse" for not supplying the upgrade is hard to believe and I feel that the complete silence since posting the "excuse" has led to much ill will.

I am not "drooling" over their current offerings -- my money will likely stay in my pocket for a while longer... The 4700, if it were 2210-sized, would be of interest. But, to each his/her own -- If you like 'em, go for it.

My point in posting was more for informational purposes. However, I personally find it troubling that HP hasn't been more proactive in resolving the issue. I guess I expected more -- not necessarily the SE upgrade, but an honest explanation regarding the issue.
:|

[Sven Johannsen]

As I've said before, I can view their 'explanations' as perfectly valid. They gave their reasons. You may refute the validity of their reasons from your viewpoint. They are at least as honest as anything that comes out of a large corporation's marketing/legal arm when attempting damage control.

Everyone seems to believe that they are only motivated by greed, and could care less about the customer. So unless they say that, you will continue to believe they are not being honest. My guess is you are not going to hear them say that.

[KimVette]

Why is every one acting surprised this is standard operating producer for HP.

The Jornada 420 series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)
The Jornada 54X series with out an upgrade path (forgiven CPU incompatibility)
The Jornada 56X series no damn reason given


This type of practice is typically of HP they make quality units a don’t support them with upgrades patches yes upgrades no

To be fair: HP NEVER advertised those PPCs as being flash-upgradable.

They DID use that as a MAJOR selling point for the iPAQ line.

[JonnoB]

Compaq did a good job of providing OS upgrades on its line. HP has a poor track record. When HP acquired Compaq and discarded the Jornada design team, I had a feeling that these types of events would happen....

1- no more OS upgrades (as experienced now)
2- lack of design brilliance (what happened to iPaq ingenuity and Jornada firsts such as top flip cover?)

[sracer]

To be fair: HP NEVER advertised those PPCs as being flash-upgradable.

They DID use that as a MAJOR selling point for the iPAQ line.

Please provide a link supporting this claim.

[KimVette]

Their own web page touted flash upgradability when they offered those models. Those pages no longer exist. Ask Carly to send you a copy of their old site. (Yeah I'm sure she'll be glad to hand over incriminating evidence of fraud!)

[corbishley]

At HP, no one is funded to provide updates to old products. Everyone is measured on meeting revenue goals and updates for old products don't create revenue. The only variance is if a big business customer raises a stink because they have 1000's of the unit and need the new functionality.

Did anyone at HP care when we lost WL100 support with the OS upgrade?

[ms303]

I've been fed up with HP for a while because of how incredibly slow they've been to provide fixes for the 5450. However the decision to effective EOL a perfectly current unit is pathetic, and I won't be buying anything else from HP, and that includes printers, etc.

Hopefully people will come up with novel things to do with old IPAQs, new OSes etc.

[Paragon]

Their own web page touted flash upgradability when they offered those models. Those pages no longer exist. Ask Carly to send you a copy of their old site. (Yeah I'm sure she'll be glad to hand over incriminating evidence of fraud!)

You know Kim, there is a world of difference in saying that a device is upgradable (which it is and must be under the licensing agreement) and saying that they WILL upgrade this device (which they don't have to do under the licensing agreement)

At no time that I'm aware of has HP stated at or near the time of purchase that they would upgrade the device I was buying.

I would love to see them offer an upgrade, I'm just as upset as as the next guy, but I have to be perfectly honest, I have never bought a device assuming I would get an upgrade for it. I think that is the mistake many of us have made....we assumed they would provide one. To be upset, or disappointed because they aren't providing an upgrade is one thing, but to call them fraudulent I think is totally wrong, and by some it would be considered slanderous.

Dave

[randyzon]

:?: Hp removed their product page that is listed on this thread. Just a note, I tried the AT&T Audiovox PPC4100 and found it halfway decent then took it back because I wanted to wait for the Hp6300 series from Tmobile. I am very disappointed in how Hp is trying to market their products. The new 6300 is coming out with a slow processor compared to the available technology. Hp's very small upgrades with each new release of a pocket pc is aggravating. Maybe they are thinking about backing out of the market just like Audiovox and leaving people stuck with phones that won't be supported. I think that I may wait another year and stay with my Nokia trimode phone until these guys get some competitive products on the market. I need a good pocket pc with bluetooth, wi-fi, camera, and SD memory without having to buy plugins that use the SD socket.

[mcgroarty]

Add generic Bluetooth keyboard support to the list of reasons for wanting SE, by the way. This would add tremendous value to the ipaq as a meeting and conference tool.

[Jaap van Ees]

:?: Hp removed their product page that is listed on this thread.

I guess HP is trying to stamp out all bad publicity. "Say positive things about us or be eradicated!" :evil:

Kind of amusing, but I have voted with my feet.

[mlepage]

My first and only Pocket PC was an iPAQ 3970. I purchased it as soon as it was available in Canada for an insane price of $1300 CAD. That was as much as a laptop computer.

My justification was that it was the best unit with all the features I wanted; HP was a good company; and it was expandable (sleds, SDIO, and flashable OS). If any of those three criteria had failed, I wouldn't have bought it.

I've been mostly happy with it. There was the whole scandal with the XScale being 400MHz fast but the bus being quite slow, but nobody knew that back then.

Now, this absolute top of the line model is getting long in the tooth only two years later. A nice OS update would go some ways to keeping it up to speed.

But it's being denied, for non-technical reasons. (I'm a software developer, so don't try to fool me.)

So there goes two reasons to buy HP: they're not a great company, and their products are not upgradable.

I won't be buying iPAQ next time. Any company that disrespects me by taking an insane amount of my money, then not living up to their end (they advertised a flashable OS!), is my enemy. Plain and simple.

[TinMan]

As I've said before, I can view their 'explanations' as perfectly valid.
With all due respect, Sven, perhaps it would be better if you retained a consistent position (other than defending HP :)). In your very first post in this thread you stated:
"They made a business decision to not invest in creating a product with little return. I'm sure they believe the profit they would make selling $30 upgrades wouldn't offset the investment. You can believe different if you wish."

Well, apparently, you feel differently, based on your viewing their explanations as "perfectly valid." Either you believe the explanations, or you believe it was a simple business decision. IMHO, you can't have it both ways. Based on your comments I could easily come to this conclusion:

HP made a business decision to not offer an upgrade, then tried to perform damage-control with a list of plausible, but unlikely, reasons for not offering said upgrade. While the list may be, to some (i.e., you and the other three people ;)), plausible, the fact that "the list" was not the motivating factor in the decision to not offer an upgrade simply shows that HP was being dishonest in releasing that list in the first place. This is what seems to be angering folks more than anything.

I used to put out fires (a/k/a damage-control) for a company some years back. I learned several things:

1.) It's far easier to prevent the fire in the first place, than to put it out. First, you don't have to deal with putting the fire out. Second, you're not left with fire-damage.

2.) Once a fire is started, don't try to put it out with gasoline. IMO, that's what HP did with "the list," and some of their other tactics.

3.) Don't allow other combustibles near the flame. Seems this upgrade issue has now spread to other aspects of HP. Example: perhaps alienating enthusiast sites was a poorly-timed thing to do (yes, I realize that the Evangelist Participation thing happened a bit earlier).

4.) In post-incident analysis, it was difficult to assess future vulnerability, or loss. In some cases, the incident was "forgotten" seemingly overnight. In others, the stigma remained long after the incident was over or had been corrected. Naturally, the severity of the incident was an obvious indicator, but by no means a reliable one (e.g., "little" incidents could have a more lasting effect than a "big" one).

So you see, this is not really about a marginal upgrade (although that was obviously the catalyst). It's an out-of-control fire story, plain and simple.

Just my opinion, no harm intended!


-Mike

[Sven Johannsen]

As I've said before, I can view their 'explanations' as perfectly valid.
With all due respect, Sven, perhaps it would be better if you retained a consistent position (other than defending HP :)). In your very first post in this thread you stated:
"They made a business decision to not invest in creating a product with little return. I'm sure they believe the profit they would make selling $30 upgrades wouldn't offset the investment. You can believe different if you wish."

Well, apparently, you feel differently, based on your viewing their explanations as "perfectly valid." Either you believe the explanations, or you believe it was a simple business decision.

Not sure how that was inconsistent. It appeared to me that the reasons listed were attempting to explain some of the things that went into the business decision. I saw nothing blatently wrong with the statements they made, in the context they made them. While I'm sure there are data points that went into the decison, like how bad are we going to hurt the new model sales, or how is ticking off the current user base going to affect future sales, I didn't expect them to share that sort of thought process. They also have the benefit of having experience in how many folks actually did buy the past upgrades. I didn't say it was a simple business decision.

I admit I am a naive, optimistic, guy that likes to give folks the benefit of the doubt, but I can't see a company like HP sitting around and saying, Hey, let's do something that pisses off a bunch of our customers, and puts a nick in our corporate image. I'm sure they weighed their assesment of the fallout against their assesment of the benefit (to them) and came up with the decision. I figured that from the outset. I just don't take it as personally as some of you.

[Jaap van Ees]

I admit I am a naive, optimistic, guy that likes to give folks the benefit of the doubt, but I can't see a company like HP sitting around and saying, Hey, let's do something that pisses off a bunch of our customers, and puts a nick in our corporate image. I'm sure they weighed their assesment of the fallout against their assesment of the benefit (to them) and came up with the decision. I figured that from the outset. I just don't take it as personally as some of you."

Nothing wrong with your way of looking at people, Sven. Quite the contrary, I'd say. But have you considered the possibility that HP made an grave error of judgement in miscalculating how strongly people would feel about this? It doesn't really matter whether or not HP has actually lied or cheated people out of something they had a right to. What matters is that thousands of customers feel they have been lied to and cheated. This means they will not trust HP, at least for a long time. This lack of trust is deepening now HP is trying to silence those who voice their anger or concern, and is strongarming the enthousiast sites into trying to stop the critics. This has made things a lot worse. Now people will really distrust HP, from which follows that many of them will stop buying HP products. So, by hurting their customers, HP hurts itself.
And this is why TinMan hit the nail on the head: never try to douse a fire with gasoline....

Jaap

[TinMan]

Not sure how that was inconsistent.

Simple: first you said it was a straight economics-driven business decision ("I'm sure they believe the profit they would make selling $30 upgrades wouldn't offset the investment"). But reasons on "the list" didn't end with comments like, "Of course fitting WM 2003 SE is indeed possible, it's just not worth our time and money to do so." Instead, the reasons were stated as if they were reason enough on their own (as if no amount of money would help). Most folks here seemed to not buy "the list" as the true reason, and as you seemingly agreed with the items on the list, I saw that as a conflict (compared to your initial statement).

Let me put it another way. Let's say I bought a top-of-the line Mercedes, and later found I really couldn't afford to keep it. I don't feel like telling my friends that this is the reason I'm selling it, so I do a Net search on the vehicle and find a few common issues (as you'll find with most any product, but hopefully not too many with this car). I then list those issues as my reason for selling the car. Now, are my list of reasons, at face value, a lie? No. But that was not why I sold the car. My reasons, in essence, were a lie.

But then my friends start "catching on" and call me on it--claiming they know the real reason was money. More-and-more friends start slamming me for lying to them. Except for my old naive friend, Swen. Swen does believe I sold the car for economic reasons, but he also completely believes my list of issues regarding the car were my reason to sell as well.

The moral: how can you not like Swen? :)


-Mike

[mcsouth]

Someone earlier drew a comparison to upgrading their PC from an older OS (Win95, 98, etc) to a new OS (Win XP) - why would anyone realistically expect a company to offer that OS upgrade?

Well, the difference to me is that I CAN make that upgrade if I choose to - I buy a copy of Win XP, and I install it, along with updated drivers, etc for my computer config. As someone mentioned, it can sometimes be challenging to determine what chipset you have, etc, but hopefully, the manufacturer would be willing to share that info with you.

But with a PPC, I don't have that option, because I DON'T know how the unit is built internally, and I don't have a way of 'building' the latest OS for it (assuming that MS was willing to sell me a copy...). When a company lists that the unit is upgradable, but then doesn't offer an upgrade path, I'm out of luck, because I can't do it myself. So ultimately, I have to console myself with the fact that the unit is not upgradeable after all (yes, it is technically possible, but realistically isn't), and therefore is not like my computer, but is more like some other consumer appliance, like a TV or a sewing machine - you need to buy it based on its merits at the time.

Is this a bad thing? I suppose not - but I feel insulted that HP tried to use some (IMO) BS answers in an FAQ to convince me that they are justified in their position. I understood that they were not interested in providing me with an update to WM2003SE for my iPaq 1945 - I did not need them to provide me with illogical reasons for that decision.

In the end, I can't really say that this situation really changes how I feel about HP - I just know that they do not offer a PDA with the features and design that I am interested in buying. I had been interested in upgrading to an iPaq 6300 - at least they are upfront in indicating they will not be upgrading that unit to WM2003SE, so I can make my decision to purchase or not with their future intentions in mind. At this point, I will choose not to, and considering that none of their other units offer any stimulating reason to upgrade from my current PDA, I guess that I will just need to look elsewhere.

No hard feelings, HP? No, not really....but no more immediate business from me either........

[Sven Johannsen]

[quote=Sven]have you considered the possibility that HP made an grave error of judgement in miscalculating how strongly people would feel about this?

Actually I have considered this and having been around when it was discovered that the 540 series had 12 bit color, HP decided not upgrade or continue the Jornada line, and Toshiba chose not to provide an upgrade to whatever model that was, etc., and watching the firestorms, and seeing the eventual fallout, I figure they probably haven't miscalculated about that. The American public is a pretty forgiving (or is it forgetfull) bunch.

I just can't get all worked up about it, but enjoy discussing it with those that do :wink: Individual anecdotes, and misplaced expectations aside, HP, the company, never promised anyone they would provide SE upgrades.

Mike: I would tell those friends of yours to get off your case. You never promised them you'd keep that car, and that your reasons are your business. You said you didn't want it anymore and they badgered some reasons out of you. Now they are giving you a hard time, because they don't believe you've sufficiently justified your decision to them. You and I need to go have a drink, and let them stew about it. They'll get over it when you get that hot tub and they want to use it. :)

[mplough]

I see now, through HP's new line of garbage, that the Compaq element is gone. Probably all the Compaq people have been dismissed!
I looked at getting a new PDA yesterday. Went to Circuit City and browsed for awhile.
The 1715 was kind of neat, oh except that;
-the display needs to be cranked up all the way
-9 meg of memory SPLIT by Windows, are you kidding me? That's worse than the paulty 16 meg of the HP 525!! Are we going BACKWARDS here?
-the body feels like the grade of platstic you get from bubblegum machine toys!
-price point, $279.99
-no removeable battery

I picked up an iPaq 1945 for $229.00 there instead. GTFO! Hp is killing themselves!
Compaq has always offered upgrades, I don't see what the problem is!
Looks to me like Dell will be leading the way shortly.

[ctmagnus]

HP's Handheld PCs page (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF02d/215348-64929-215381.html?jumpid=re_R295_prodexp/busproducts/computing-handheld/handheld_pc) still lists the h5550 series first, even before the hx4700, h6300 and rz1700. Either this is insane marketing or very deceiving.

[MikeInDallas]

I just tried to read this article and I get "this page has been removed". Did anybody manage to snatch a copy of it?

[Janak Parekh]

I just tried to read this article and I get "this page has been removed". Did anybody manage to snatch a copy of it?
There's a very similar article linked to in this post (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30701).

--janak

[flatlander_48]

My $0.02:

I AM TIRED OF DEAD END PDA's.

I have a Philips Nino 312 that died after they discontinued it.
I have a Casio E-125 that, while still functional, is dead in the water with a MIPS processor and PoPC 2000.
Last December I bought an iPAQ 2215 and we all know how this is going to turn out.

Due to Philips flash-in-the-pan, I have made a personal decision not to buy another Philips product. I don't hold a grudge against Casio as they were shafted by Microsoft. However, I do deplore the HP decision not to provide an upgrade for the 2215. I assume they feel that no matter what they do, I will still be a customer. Well, guess again. Well, Dell, Toshiba and Asus are looking that much better.

So Carly: I really don't like being taken advantage of or lied to. I think it's going to be quite a while before HP is on my radar again.

[MikeInDallas]

I just tried to read this article and I get "this page has been removed". Did anybody manage to snatch a copy of it?
There's a very similar article linked to in this post (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30701).

--janak

Got it, thanks!

[Wiggster]

So Carly: I really don't like being taken advantage of or lied to.

Who lied to you? HP never said they'd offer SE upgrades.

[Kati Compton]

So Carly: I really don't like being taken advantage of or lied to.

Who lied to you? HP never said they'd offer SE upgrades.
HP never made a formal statement, but from what I understand, several of their salespeople said that the most recent PPCs would have the upgrade (in order to make the sale of said PPC). Now, this is 2nd-hand information, so I personally am limiting my anger on that front. But if I had been one of those people, I'd be really upset and would be making a big stink about it. Even if the company did not make that promise, they need to be responsible for the statements of their employees made as agents of HP.

[PetiteFlower]

And then again, can you expect HP to develop the upgrade just because a few overeager salespeople made exaggerated claims to a few people? Not saying that those customers shouldn't be compensated in SOME way, but if the upgrade doesn't exist in a ready-for-consumer state, then that's not going to change because of a handful of customers were made bogus claims. ESPECIALLY if those salespeople did not work for HP but for Best Buy or another store. Maybe those people should be asking for $100 off a new PDA or something?

[Sven Johannsen]

I actually had an interesting exchange with an individual on a newsgroup about this. His experience was an HP account rep in a presentation to company management in support of a large buy. The rep made the statement that the PPCs they were looking at would be upgraded. I have no reason to disbelieve the account of the event. What is unknown is if the account rep was overzealous enough to make a statement he had no business making, or if they were, at the time, actually planning to upgrade the units and that management decision changed. In either case I would think that HP would bend over backwards to smooth this. Not sure what they could do as there aren't any new HPs that really can replace some of the older ones in some aspects. In that case, HP dug a hole.

That is significantly different than having been 'promised' by the guy at Best Buy in the HP T-Shirt, or the HP store employee on the other end of the phone. There was a time when word was bond. Not any more unfortunately. Even reputable companies like MobilePlanet have a disclaimer in their printed catalog and on their website that they aren't responsible for anything there.

As Petiteflower says, the upgrade doesn't exist. Even if you have the promise in writing, it's not going to happen. In that case though, I expect you would be able to get some compensation.

[PetiteFlower]

I suspect that an upgrade was planned at one time and it was later determined to be not cost effective. Maybe due to how many problems were in the beta and how much it would cost to fix them. And that's not the sales rep's fault, if that's the case, and HP should be tripping over themselves to try to make amends for that one.

As for compensation, the upgrade doesn't exist but hey, money can smooth over nearly any difficulty :) We do live in that kind of world!

[ache_peeon]

update on the petition...


almost 12,000 signatures...


http://www.petitiononline.com/HPWMK...E/petition.html


other sites report on it....

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18403


http://www.brighthand.com/article/W...Milestone?site=

why not this one??? too scared of tickin off some corporation I guess....

[Wiggster]

update on the petition...


almost 12,000 signatures...

other sites report on it....

why not this one??? too scared of tickin off some corporation I guess....

1. Online petitions (http://www.activist.ca/guide/petition.html) do not work. They're practically anonymous, the intended target seldom reads them, and they can be easily dismissed. Don't believe me? Check out some (http://www.petitiononline.com/raingate/) of (http://www.petitiononline.com/13421509/petition.html) the (http://www.petitiononline.com/110fix/petition.html) petitions (http://www.petitiononline.com/24HWN/petition.html) on the web.
2. There has been quite an upheaval about the HP issue on this website. Notice that you are quoting a link in this very thread and complain that it's not being discussed here. Just because it's not on the front page doesn't mean no one knows about it. However, most of the people who are upset with HP and visit this site regularly already know about the petition.
3. Who has submitted this as news to this site? The wonderful staff here can't know everything that happens in months-old stagnant topics automatically as soon as a milestone is reached.
4. Before you question motives of a site, try calming down and examining it rationally. It was almost a month since the last post in this thread before you resurrected it. Perhaps it hasn't come up since there has been nothing new on this topic? This thread came from a front-page post, but I haven't seen anything worth a second post.

[juni]

Perhaps as a reminder to ourselves when we get tempted by our gadgetlust how short the lifespan of a HP device is? ;)

[Janak Parekh]

Perhaps as a reminder to ourselves when we get tempted by our gadgetlust how short the lifespan of a HP device is? ;)
For the record, I searched our news queue and there have been no submissions on the topic that I can see.

Anyway, I have to agree with adwignall. We have had several articles on the subject, and it keeps on coming up on future posts (I've made the reference in a couple of iPAQ 6315 posts). Believe me, it has nothing to do with corporate influence.

--janak

[foerumnotsees]

as an addendum to this discussion I notice every time I try to criticize hp my account gets deleted wonder how long this account will last?

[Steven Cedrone]

as an addendum to this discussion I notice every time I try to criticize hp my account gets deleted wonder how long this account will last?

Actually, the first time you posted, your "name" was on the offensive side. I PM'd you to change it, which you did not do. It was renamed (the posts are still there) Ditto, for your second account. Criticize HP all you want (we all do), but please remember, this is a PG rated forum. PM me to continue this discussion...

Steve

[Wiggster]

as an addendum to this discussion I notice every time I try to criticize hp my account gets deleted wonder how long this account will last?
Offensive nicknames notwithstanding, there are differences between criticizing, bashing, and trolling.

Also, the incendiary posts against this site sure aren't helping. This is a place to share your experiences, wishes, and thoughts about the Pocket PC experience. Nobody ever said that you can act like a jerk and blame the staff for not letting you offend everyone.