Geek heresies...

[Duncan]

Some things I want to get off my chest... a few mini rants about those gadgets, technologies, pieces of software etc. tht we are all supposed to thing are terribly geek cool - and yet, quite frankly, are really rather naff...

iPODS - why Mr Ives, we're just not worthy.... So let's think about this... Nice shiny white case? Just asking to look worn and grubby in next to no time. There is a reason why white was not often used as a casing colour pre-iPOD...
Battery life. Crap. What is the point of a music player that can store a lifetime's music but only play it back for three hours? HD music players are great, but mine actually lasts for an entire day...
WMA's - abilty to play them, not... This isn't hard. It has a hard drive, it has an OS, why on earth can't it play the music I have stored on my PC without havng to rip it into a file format I have no other use for?
Simple user replaceable battery. This Ives is such a geniius that he couldn't figure out how to fit a battery compartment into his design?
The iPOD is rubbish. It fails to do its job on several levels and looking nice and shiny is neither useful nor something that will last...


Sony PDAs - innovative design? Bollocks!
Memory Sticks. The rest of the universe uses a nice shiny standard SD card, Sony uses a Memory Stick. VERY innovative!
Swivel screens. In portrait form awkward to twist, a pain to hold. When they finally got round to trying it landsape - they chose an absurdly small screen and forgot to take into account that the ability to switch to portrait might be a good idea.
Bluetooth and WiFi. Bluetooth that is so full of proprietary stuff that it only tends to want to work with other Sony stuff. Then they stick a CF slot in for WiFi - but cripple it so you can only use their own.
2.1 MP camera. They really were kidding themselves with that. Did they seriously think that such high pixel count had a purpose in a PDA?
Worst user interface ever. That silly scrolling screen...
Price. So they package a load of gimmicks into a barely adequate PDA - and then want to charge the earth fot it? They really saw Clie owners coming...!


Really Small Mobile Phones

All of them.

OK. My mobile phone has a simple primary purpose. To make phone calls away from home. For this I need to be able to dial. Really small buttons may look cool, but when I'm needing to find a toothpick just to press them... Why would I want a phone so small that I can't dial on it as easily as on my home phone, where the battery has to be so small that I'm robbed of the extra time I could have if the phone were bigger, where I have to strain at the highly detailed but tiny screen, where when I hold it to my face I'm not sure where to place it (stick it near my ear and it is so far from my mouth that it has to lip read...

... and don't get me started on the idiots who design keypads that go in circles, up the side of the screen, come in different sizes, lock so close together that you have to look to see where you are pressing...


The iMac

Both generations. Underpowered, overpriced. The first one looks like a Fisher Price 'My First Computer'. The later one was just a hi-tech anglepoise lamp. Design classics? Design doo-doo...


Macs in general

So they don't crash. Neither has any PC I've owned in the past four years.

So they don't get viruses. Hardly surpising as a Mac virus would hardly cause the world any major problems...

So they are quite powerful. Of course you can spec a PC for the same price as a Mac and have something rather more powerful...

So they look nice. Hmmm... White again.

Poor software selections, incompatibilities with this that and the other hardware that the PC can handle well, inability to repair or upgrade yourself - no way Apple are going to trust mere users with Mac components...


Linux

I've used it. Big powerful versions. Nicely packaged consumer versions. No. It is not something I would inflict on the general consumer. The irritating smugness of the Linux message boards. The Command line much closer to the UI than it has a right to be in the 21st century.

Linux remains a geeks only OS and, no matter how much the Linux geek tries to convince himself otherwise, it isn't changing for the better any time soon...



Yes - iPODS, Sony Clies, Macs, uber small mobile phones, Linux - rubbish the lot of them. No - I'm not kidding and yes, I do have real experience of every single one of them...

I can't be alone... there must be others who want to point at a gadget and go - 'bit rubbish that isn't it...!'...???

[dh]

Now just wait one minute young man........

Actually I agree with most of what you said, but having am iMac that runs Linux just across the room, I can't let you get away with this without some comment.

There is a version of Linux that works great, never crashes and is as easy to use as the Microsoft alternative. No, it's not the Yellow Dog Linux living in the iMac, that's a project, not a finished system and probably will never be finished. I must say, it is better than the old OS 9.something MAC OS that was on there before.

The super version of Linux is Cacko, Qtopia Linux that runs in my Zaurus. If desktop Linux was as refined, Microsoft really would have some competition. In the meantime, well I guess that's why I'm using my Win 2000 based ThinkPad, albeit with an Open Source browser. :D

PS I would have bought a Clie ages ago if not for the stupid memory stick.

[Duncan]

Open Source browser. :D

I can see Firefox featuring in my second round...! :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

Some things I want to get off my chest...
What, so that we can chastise you for whining? ;) In defense of my iPod:

iPODS - why Mr Ives, we're just not worthy.... So let's think about this... Nice shiny white case? Just asking to look worn and grubby in next to no time. There is a reason why white was not often used as a casing colour pre-iPOD...
I have a white iPod. I've had it for about a year now. Still looks great. Slightly scuffed because I don't use a case, but not anywhere near "grubby".

Battery life. Crap. What is the point of a music player that can store a lifetime's music but only play it back for three hours? HD music players are great, but mine actually lasts for an entire day...
Actually... I get about 6 hours off my iPod. I almost never drain it down, because 2-3 hours is all I want. You misunderstand the motivation of hard drive players just like other whiners: I have the flexibility to choose what I want to hear from my entire collection. I'm not going to carry a few hundred MDs, which is what I would need if I had an MD player.

Oh, and if 8 hours isn't enough, get a new iPod (which is getting more than 12 hours), a battery extender, and/or a third-party hard-drive based player with even more life.

WMA's - abilty to play them, not... This isn't hard. It has a hard drive, it has an OS, why on earth can't it play the music I have stored on my PC without havng to rip it into a file format I have no other use for?
Conscious Apple decision to avoid Microsoft's foray into the music space. Get another brand if WMA is critical. On the flipside, all my music is AAC. Why are other players refusing to support AAC? (Not FairPlay, that's one thing, I mean the ISO standard AAC format.) Various desktop programs (like WinAmp) handle them fine.

Simple user replaceable battery. This Ives is such a geniius that he couldn't figure out how to fit a battery compartment into his design?
You'll find that many PDAs and music players seal the battery. It lets them reduce the formfactor, as they can "sandwich" it effectively with the other components. Making it removable will almost invariably make it thicker.

The iPOD is rubbish. It fails to do its job on several levels and looking nice and shiny is neither useful nor something that will last...
I utterly disagree. My iPod does exactly what it was intended to, lasts as long as I need it, and is a joy to use. My one complaint is that I want a equalizer. Oh, and Ogg support.

Really Small Mobile Phones

All of them.
Then buy a bigger one! I have flexible fingers, and I haven't found a phone that I have trouble with. The T68 was great, for example, for my thumb.

... and don't get me started on the idiots who design keypads that go in circles, up the side of the screen, come in different sizes, lock so close together that you have to look to see where you are pressing...
I agree with you here, although Nokia has apparently done UI research. The 3650, though, was a disaster, and they've replaced it.

OK, I don't have enough energy to address your other points. That's enough for now.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

I can see Firefox featuring in my second round...! :wink:
Ooooh, man. You're trying to start a fight.

Doncha be dissin' my Firefox! :P

I don't mind ipods (and they have 8hour battery life, don't they?) or iMacs, but I agree the white thing makes for elevated dirt potential. I *don't* like the bouncy-bouncy dock thing on macs. Drives me nuts.

I have no problem with Linux or Open Source - I think it's great. I've found it very helpful many times. What I *don't* like is the attitude that a few Open Source people have - "If you can't figure it out by reading the code, we're not going to tell you. Docs are for losers." If they don't want to support it, fine - just say "unsupported". But really, it's nice when there's a little README file that explains how to use the program. ;)

With cell phones - I agree that the buttons have been moving towards the unusably miniscule. But I'm not sure if my definition of "too small" meshes with yours.

[Kati Compton]

On the flipside, all my music is AAC. Why are other players refusing to support AAC? (Not FairPlay, that's one thing, I mean the ISO standard AAC format.) Various desktop programs (like WinAmp) handle them fine.
No, I want to know why more players don't support OGG! There's no license fees, it's not associated with a competitor (WMA vs AAC Cagematch!), and a TON of players have been offered with "MP3 and WMA support, plus upgradeable to new formats!" Or even sometimes "future OGG support" that never materializes. It's completely 14m3... er... lame.

[Janak Parekh]

No, I want to know why more players don't support OGG!
Well, you'll notice I mentioned that. The answer, sadly, is that only a minority of users use Ogg. Nowhere near the top on manufacturers' feature lists. :(

--janak

[dean_shan]

So they look nice. Hmmm... White again.

Hey man my PowerBook G4 is one of the few computers I can call sexy.

http://images.apple.com/powerbook/images/12indextop04182004.jpg

[billyevil]

I have to agree with you on all your points in the rant and look forward to your next. You have an amusing way of saying things that bother people but generally gets shot down as whining.

[Duncan]

Actually... I get about 6 hours off my iPod. I almost never drain it down, because 2-3 hours is all I want. You misunderstand the motivation of hard drive players just like other whiners: I have the flexibility to choose what I want to hear from my entire collection. I'm not going to carry a few hundred MDs, which is what I would need if I had an MD player.

Oh, and if 8 hours isn't enough, get a new iPod (which is getting more than 12 hours), a battery extender, and/or a third-party hard-drive based player with even more life.

I don't misunderstand the motivation of HD players. I am, after all, on my second (BTW - who mentioned MD? Ive never owned or wanted to own an MD player) - and mine lasts an easy 14 hours AND has a user replaceable battery AND plays MP3 and WMA. My rant is aimed solely at the iPOD for being a third rate player in terms of format support, battery life etc.

I have a white iPod. I've had it for about a year now. Still looks great. Slightly scuffed because I don't use a case, but not anywhere near "grubby".

I carry my player in my pocket with my keys. I treat it rough and use it as if it were a walkman. It looks great even now. I contrast with my friends now 'off-white' scruffy iPOD - and note that he is paranoid about getting it more dirty or scratched. I think I've grasped the point of an HD player more than my friend...

Conscious Apple decision to avoid Microsoft's foray into the music space. Get another brand if WMA is critical. On the flipside, all my music is AAC. Why are other players refusing to support AAC? (Not FairPlay, that's one thing, I mean the ISO standard AAC format.) Various desktop programs (like WinAmp) handle them fine

WMA is the standard being adopted by the majority of online music stores, it is what WMP understands best. Like Kati I can see value in more Ogg support - but AAC - no point!

You'll find that many PDAs and music players seal the battery. It lets them reduce the formfactor, as they can "sandwich" it effectively with the other components. Making it removable will almost invariably make it thicker.

Mine managed it!

I utterly disagree. My iPod does exactly what it was intended to, lasts as long as I need it, and is a joy to use.

But - it doesn't do as much as it could, doesn't last as long as it could. When buying an HD player I think - how long will the battery last, can I carry a spare, will it play the major formats, how much will it store, how does it sound. When I had the 'mine is better than yours' discussion with my mate his response was - 'yeah, but it looks cool'...! :roll:

C'mon Janak - is that all you've got? :)

[Duncan]

I can see Firefox featuring in my second round...! :wink:
Ooooh, man. You're trying to start a fight.

{looks around innocently...} Who, me?

Doncha be dissin' my Firefox! :P

Just wait 'till I get my next head of steam...! :wink:

I have no problem with Linux or Open Source - I think it's great. I've found it very helpful many times.

Neither do I. Linux in and of itelf was definitely not the target.

What I *don't* like is the attitude that a few Open Source people have - "If you can't figure it out by reading the code, we're not going to tell you. Docs are for losers." If they don't want to support it, fine - just say "unsupported". But really, it's nice when there's a little README file that explains how to use the program. ;) There, in a nutshell, is the target of my Linux rant - along with the 'Linux is really user-friendly now' speech - always given my Linux geeks so into the OS that they can't see that just because they find it easy doesn't mean the general consumer will. They don't, period.

With cell phones - I agree that the buttons have been moving towards the unusably miniscule. But I'm not sure if my definition of "too small" meshes with yours.

I just want to be able to buy a phone big enough to dial easily, with straightforward arrangement of sensibly styled buttons, a big enough screen to be usable and a battery that lasts longer (battery tech improves, but battery life stays static because they keep sticking smaller batteries in the titchy phones). It is too small if the size makes the actul effort of dialling and phoning harder than it needs to be. My T610 is the smallest I want to get...

Oh - and I agree entirely on the OGG support - unlike iPODs though, many HD players may yet get that upgrade... :)

[Duncan]

So they look nice. Hmmm... White again.

Hey man my PowerBook G4 is one of the few computers I can call sexy.

My laptop works well and does its job. It looks like a laptop. It is light and powerful. I don't need it to look sexy... (I'm already happily married)! :)

[JvanEkris]

I have no problem with Linux or Open Source - I think it's great. I've found it very helpful many times.

Neither do I. Linux in and of itelf was definitely not the target.

What I *don't* like is the attitude that a few Open Source people have - "If you can't figure it out by reading the code, we're not going to tell you. Docs are for losers." If they don't want to support it, fine - just say "unsupported". But really, it's nice when there's a little README file that explains how to use the program. ;) There, in a nutshell, is the target of my Linux rant - along with the 'Linux is really user-friendly now' speech - always given my Linux geeks so into the OS that they can't see that just because they find it easy doesn't mean the general consumer will. They don't, period.Well,

One of the most anoying things about Linux and the Open Source movement is the quest for components you have to endure to get something installed. Because Open Source uses everybodies components, but DOES NOT include them in the install-package, you have to find them yourself. Needless to say they also depend on components. Being a relative novice, i stick to Redhat Packes (RPM's). They at least tell you what is missing in non-cryptic ways. However, usually installing a simple application on a standard system results in a quest for all the small components, sometimes of specific versions etc.. Give me the windows installer anyday, this is torture.

I agree with you completely on manuals. If there are any, there outdated by years and all your options are abandonded or do something totally different. Recomended extensions have moved in another direction and do not colaborate any more. If your only way to resolve things is the manual, your in deep ****.

The famous RTFM's used to be the case, i agree. I can still remeber the ugly mail i got from a developper of a UPS-utility because i dared to mention that i could not compile his code :oops: That was not funny.

However i must say i see some movement towards helping people as well. A lot of applications use mailinglists or forums. Using google really helps (on the internet, you are never the only one with that unique problem), to find the one person that does have the answer.

Last months I've been trying to build a Freevo box: a TiVo replacement based on Linux. One of the components is LIRC, the infrared driver for Linux. It is the ugliest beast of them all. Not only do you have to compile it (no RPM's there) because it is build specifically for every machine, but you need to recompile the kernel as well. To get this working on my machine i found manuals (working ones, which is rare). Needless to say something went awry somewhere, the developper himself got involved, some people in the area i live offered to come by to help me on the spot. After a couple of e-mails my system was up and running. So i guess the Linux-community is opening up to novice users.....

Besides this, i see Fedora Core 2 on the laptop of our server-admin and must say it is more usable than my Windows laptop 8O

Jaap

[Kati Compton]

However i must say i see some movement towards helping people as well. A lot of applications use mailinglists or forums. Using google really helps (on the internet, you are never the only one with that unique problem), to find the one person that does have the answer.
I agree - which is why I was careful to say "some". ;)

Last months I've been trying to build a Freevo box: a TiVo replacement based on Linux.
Oooh. I've been thinking about that myself, but I don't think I have the time to devote to it...

[Janak Parekh]

I don't misunderstand the motivation of HD players. I am, after all, on my second (BTW - who mentioned MD? Ive never owned or wanted to own an MD player)
Whoops. I misread your HD comment as MD. Sorry. Which player do you own?

I carry my player in my pocket with my keys. I treat it rough and use it as if it were a walkman. It looks great even now.
Okay - to each their own. I carry mine in my pocket every day, but not with my keys (I use a keycase to avoid scuffling any of my electronics too much). A lot of people have complained about it, but I assume Apple's market research has concluded more people prefer the white than dislike it, since the 4G unit has the same material.

WMA is the standard being adopted by the majority of online music stores, it is what WMP understands best.
Yes, and quite frankly, I think it sucks. WMP allows for inconsistent DRM policies, and it's owned by one company, and it has poor multiplatform support. I personally won't use WMP if I can help it. iTunes supports unlimited CD burns, playback on five PCs and unlimited numbers of iPods, and it's an absolute joy to use. I don't know of any WMA store that offers the same policies.

Like Kati I can see value in more Ogg support - but AAC - no point!
That's your preference. You can't make a global judgement. ;)

Mine managed it!
And it's thinner than the iPod? Got a link?

But - it doesn't do as much as it could, doesn't last as long as it could. When buying an HD player I think - how long will the battery last, can I carry a spare, will it play the major formats, how much will it store, how does it sound.
I think "is it easy to use, is the audio quality good, how easy is it to select songs to play, and does it fit very comfortably in my pocket". The iPod wins an all counts.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

There, in a nutshell, is the target of my Linux rant - along with the 'Linux is really user-friendly now' speech - always given my Linux geeks so into the OS that they can't see that just because they find it easy doesn't mean the general consumer will. They don't, period.
But there are zealots of all platforms -- Linux, Windows, Macs. I use Linux heavily, but I don't pretend it's user-friendly.

Oh - and I agree entirely on the OGG support - unlike iPODs though, many HD players may yet get that upgrade... :)
A few will. Most won't. :( The iRiver is probably the best on the market today that has Ogg support, but it's still a bit larger than I'd like. (By the way, I'm not anti-Ogg at all; I've used it heavily, and I like the format a lot.)

My laptop works well and does its job. It looks like a laptop. It is light and powerful. I don't need it to look sexy... (I'm already happily married)!
Well, fine. It's well-engineered. It's nice to use and very thin. I'd own one except for the fact that I'm trying to restrict my next notebook purchase to one that's less than 2.5 pounds, preferably under 2 pounds, and there's only two on the market that conform to that.

I agree with you completely on manuals. If there are any, there outdated by years and all your options are abandonded or do something totally different.
Well, the fundamental aspect of OSS is that it's volunteer work, so not everything is going to be perfect. By all means, I don't think it's an end-all replacement for commercial software.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

I agree with you completely on manuals. If there are any, there outdated by years and all your options are abandonded or do something totally different.
Well, the fundamental aspect of OSS is that it's volunteer work, so not everything is going to be perfect.
Of course - and I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to say "I'm sorry, I don't have time to support this software." Just as long as no one tries to tell me it's "simple" to use and I must be an idiot to not understand it from the source code. ;)

[Jon Westfall]

Duncan - just remember - a fight with the mods around here will result with them getting the last word and your thread ending up locked and in the HoF&S. Nevertheless, this thread is quite interesting. I agree with you on most points, minus some of your linux rant.

[Duncan]

Duncan - just remember - a fight with the mods around here will result with them getting the last word and your thread ending up locked and in the HoF&S. Nevertheless, this thread is quite interesting. I agree with you on most points, minus some of your linux rant.

I don't expect that will happen at all - you are being a mite unfair to the mods there. Ranting and spirited discussion are part and parcel of the raison d'etre of the site after all...

[Janak Parekh]

I don't expect that will happen at all - you are being a mite unfair to the mods there. Ranting and spirited discussion are part and parcel of the raison d'etre of the site after all...
Thanks, Duncan. I might vehemently disagree with you, but that's part of the game. dadarkmcse, believe it or not, we really do try to avoid locking threads -- at least until personal insults and name-calling get involved.

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

Duncan - just remember - a fight with the mods around here will result with them getting the last word and your thread ending up locked and in the HoF&S.

Nah, as long as no rules are broken, you can debate until you are blue in the face (and Kati loves to "debate"). The only time things are sent to HOF&S is when things get totally out of hand...

Steve

[Kati Compton]

(and Kati loves to "debate")
Sigh. It's a "love-hate" thing. :P ;)

[maximus]

Some things I want to get off my chest... a few mini rants about those gadgets, technologies, pieces of software etc. tht we are all supposed to thing are terribly geek cool - and yet, quite frankly, are really rather naff...

iPODS
Sony PDAs
Really Small Mobile Phones
The iMac
Macs in general
Linux


Hmm ... I just realize that a man (a woman) can have so much capacity for hatred in his (her) heart. :wink:

Anyway, with regards to the super small phone, I have several petite lady friends with small fingers downhere, and they just love the petite phones. I think this is only normal. People tends to like things that are their size.

Would you enjoy watching a petite 140 cm female wearing the monstrous nokia 9100 on her belt ?

I can't be alone... there must be others who want to point at a gadget and go - 'bit rubbish that isn't it...!'...???[/

Nope. I am a nice guy. I always tried to avoid using the word rubbish, but if I have to award the title 'rubbish' to a gadget, that will be my very first PDA, (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12087&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=issued&start=11) which cost me $400 :wink:

[PetiteFlower]

There are big phones with big buttons for big guys with big hands like you.

And there are tiny phones for tiny gals with tiny hands like me.

No one is forcing you to buy a phone that was made for me! I would certainly be upset if my only choices of phones were huge ones meant for Andre the Giant's hands. Just because YOU don't like them doesn't mean they shouldn't be made!

[Duncan]

I think I need to reiterate some stuff (as I'm starting to get responses to things I didn't actually say).

1) I am not anti Linux - simply the advocaction of Linux as a consumer OS and the odd inability for many (most?) Linux geeks to see that it is not user friendly. Linux itself is fine and was not my target.

2) I'm not advocating big phones. I mentioned that I use a T610 - that is hardly huge. Note to the last two posters - objecting to the trend towards absurdly small phones and silly unusable keypad arrangements does not equal - 'I love big phones'. Small is good - the trend towards unusably small is bad. Even a dwarf has hands bigger than Barbie's...! :)

(Oh and Maximus - you can't catch me on that one. The Loox 600 may have been flawed but as long as the HP rz1715 (or the awful h3870), Toshiba e740, Casio E200 etc. exist (and define the concept of the rubbish PPC) I can can smugly smile and point out - the 600 was FSC's *first* device... what was every other OEM's excuse...?! 8))

[Jon Westfall]

I don't expect that will happen at all - you are being a mite unfair to the mods there. Ranting and spirited discussion are part and parcel of the raison d'etre of the site after all...
Thanks, Duncan. I might vehemently disagree with you, but that's part of the game. dadarkmcse, believe it or not, we really do try to avoid locking threads -- at least until personal insults and name-calling get involved.

--janak

Janak, Steven, & Kati,

I said a fight, not a good natured discussion. Fights, to me, are characterized when a good natured discussion breaks down, and with a thread as interesting as this, I don't want to see that. That's all I meant. You guys do a great job around here.

Jon.

[JvanEkris]

I agree with you completely on manuals. If there are any, there outdated by years and all your options are abandonded or do something totally different.
Well, the fundamental aspect of OSS is that it's volunteer work, so not everything is going to be perfect. By all means, I don't think it's an end-all replacement for commercial software.

--janakIt is made by people in their spare time, thats true. However, why do people find months of time to build a feature, but can't find the minutes to document it's working in the manual (just say it's there, what it does and how i control it !).
Last months I've been trying to build a Freevo box: a TiVo replacement based on Linux.
Oooh. I've been thinking about that myself, but I don't think I have the time to devote to it...Freevo is very-well build. If you start with a Fedora Core 2 machine, the biggest hassle is to install MPlayer (which is a search for a lot of packages). There are automated ways to install it however.

Biggest problem i ran into is that LIRC is not completely capable (yet) to function under Fedora 2 (because it has a 2.6 kernel, which screws up LIRC). They are working on it, but it requires some time from some busy people. This forced me to do an install using Fedora Core 1.

Installing Freevo was a matter of hours, installing LIRC has cost me weeks (before i switched to Fedora 1). I must say i'm pretty happy with the machine: webradio works, playing AVI's, recording them (there are good plugins for htis as well), watching TV etc.. MPlayer does a better job playing AVI's then my laptop does, it really is great.

I would however also look at Mythtv (http://www.mythtv.org/). I used a lot of documentation from them as well (a lot of components like MPlayer and LIRC are used by both teams), and it provides similar functionality. They have an extremely good WiKi.

Jaap

[maximus]

(Oh and Maximus - you can't catch me on that one. The Loox 600 may have been flawed but as long as the HP rz1715 (or the awful h3870), Toshiba e740, Casio E200 etc. exist (and define the concept of the rubbish PPC) I can can smugly smile and point out - the 600 was FSC's *first* device... what was every other OEM's excuse...?! 8))

Ha ha ha.

But of course there is this super company based in Roundrock, TX, and its first PPC was a HUGE hit, a big BANG, a SUPERNOVA ... no excuses necessary :p

[Steven Cedrone]

Janak, Steven, & Kati,

I said a fight, not a good natured discussion. Fights, to me, are characterized when a good natured discussion breaks down, and with a thread as interesting as this, I don't want to see that. That's all I meant. You guys do a great job around here.

Jon.

O.K., and thanks! :way to go:

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

It is made by people in their spare time, thats true. However, why do people find months of time to build a feature, but can't find the minutes to document it's working in the manual (just say it's there, what it does and how i control it !).
Simple: it's much more fun for a geek to actually write "new" code than to document it. Typically, many of these projects are done for themselves first and foremost, and they're being released as an afterthought. Only the really polished projects (Apache, Mozilla, etc.) have gone through the revisions and documentation-building stages.

--janak

[Jon Westfall]

It is made by people in their spare time, thats true. However, why do people find months of time to build a feature, but can't find the minutes to document it's working in the manual (just say it's there, what it does and how i control it !).
Simple: it's much more fun for a geek to actually write "new" code than to document it. Typically, many of these projects are done for themselves first and foremost, and they're being released as an afterthought. Only the really polished projects (Apache, Mozilla, etc.) have gone through the revisions and documentation-building stages.

--janak

Its a double edged sword as a geek - we write the code, neglect the documentation, and even source commenting, and than WE can't figure out what it does 6 months later.

So obviously, the geeks probably write some internal documentation so they can resume the project later without having to research each procedure and function. Perhaps it would be beneficial to see more sharing of this unofficial documentation.

[Janak Parekh]

So obviously, the geeks probably write some internal documentation so they can resume the project later without having to research each procedure and function.
Nah, they don't. I've played with a bunch of OSS code and most of it (even the Linux kernel, which I've hacked on) is horribly commented. I consider myself one of the rare exceptions in going out of my way to comment code very heavily, and even I have to force myself to write user documentation.

--janak

[Jon Westfall]

So obviously, the geeks probably write some internal documentation so they can resume the project later without having to research each procedure and function.
Nah, they don't. I've played with a bunch of OSS code and most of it (even the Linux kernel, which I've hacked on) is horribly commented. I consider myself one of the rare exceptions in going out of my way to comment code very heavily, and even I have to force myself to write user documentation.

--janak

Yea, I thought of that after I posted. I remember writing a demo application for a friend a few years back and having to comment every line so that new programmers could figure out how to use the activex component my friend was selling. Thanks for being one of the diligent code commenters.

[Janak Parekh]

Thanks for being one of the diligent code commenters.
Of course, my code's not useful for the community-at-large. Oh well. ;)

--janak

[maximus]

During my older IT auditor days, my software team always required that each subroutine to have a commentary header (input, output, and short explanation). All source codes to have proper documentations. All compiled applications to have sourcecode sequential numbering. All compiled application to be properly tested by users, before moving it into production. etc. etc. etc. My software team usually give hardtime to programmers who choosed not to comply by hitting their heads with a thick 4" company guidelines on software management :mrgreen:

Ah, the simpler old days ...

[Janak Parekh]

During my older IT auditor days, my software team always required that each subroutine to have a commentary header (input, output, and short explanation).
Most commercial entities still do. However, OSS has no such standards--except the larger projects, like Mozilla, that have "maintainers" to ensure the quality of checked-in code.

--janak