HP's New Rules for Enthusiast Sites - And Why I Resigned from the Program [Archive]

Jason Dunn

08-06-2004, 03:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.ipaqhq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8394' target='_blank'>http://www.ipaqhq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8394</a> </div>"Here is the skinny. On June 18, 2004 I received an email invitation from HP.(see below) It was asking us to moderate our users posts to delete references of the "rumored" models...Anyhow, there were other things HP was asking me to do related to "rumors". They wanted us to discontinue posting leaked info as well. I was willing to do this. What were we getting out of this deal? Early evaluation units of new products 1-60 days pre-launch (at HP's discretion and dependent on availability) and a few other info related benefits that, in my opinion, should be available to media without selling out..." The above text is taken from <a href="http://www.ipaqhq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8394">a post on Ipaq HQ</a>, written by Chris Leckness. Chris also runs AximSite, and is a great evangelist for the Windows Mobile platform. Chris and I have been talking about this for the past month, and I decided that I should post on this and take a public stance on it myself (I meant to do it a week ago). First, go read Chris' post and the requirements that HP was asking of him. I received the same letter. Here are my reasons for resigning from the program...<!> For the past year and a half, I've was a part of HPs enthusiast program. I worked with some really great people, and they did their best to provide me with early information and hardware for review. I got a chance to talk to the product manager for the 6300 earlier this year, get some good info about the unit, and give him some feedback about how I felt they could improve the product (on paper at least - I still haven't seen a 6300 in person). A good example of this arrangement was <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,13980">the iPAQ 2215</a> review that I did a year ago last month. HP sent me the unit about a week before they were in the stores, and I was able to get a long, detailed review published within 24 hours of it being fully public. What did I give HP in return? My agreement with them was not to publish NDA information that was sent to us. That means that if someone had sent me a PowerPoint slide deck a month earlier with details on the 2215, I wouldn't publish it. However, if that information was public to the general community and other Web sites were posting on it, I was allowed to link to it, as long as I didn't add any of my own NDA knowledge to the mix. This is the same NDA I have with Microsoft as an MVP. It wasn't perfect, but I felt it was a good balance between giving HP something they wanted (plugging one hole in the leaky wall), yet still allowing me to point all of you to hot rumours and news on other sites. The worst thing would be to have to pretend I'm off in la-la land and not be able to even post a link to a new device that the rest of the community is buzzing about. Yet that's exactly what HP was asking me to do with this new agreement - and, worse, they were asking me to delete posts made by you that mentioned a non-released product. Could you imagine what a hostile place this would become if my team and I had to nuke every post that mentioned something that wasn't fully public? There's much more I could rant on here, such as why a certain employee of HP involved with this evangelist program is seemingly posting supportive comments in the forums of a site that signed up for the program, and posting derisive comments in the forum of a site that didn't sign up. There's also the issue of sites only following some of the rules HP laid out...but I won't get into that. :wink: Ultimately HP can run their business any way they want. This enthusiast program was a perk to me, and to this site, not something that I have a right to. They changed the rules, I don't like the new rules, and I quit. HP owes me nothing more than that. Yet as someone who has a post-secondary degree in public relations, and teaches public relations and technology at a college level, I firmly believe HP couldn't have picked a worse PR tactic. Their new approach to interacting with the people who support their product is both short-sighted and ultimately damaging. It reeks of 1990's thinking. HP's new management doesn't understand community, and it's only going to hurt their efforts in this market. Alienating your biggest supporters is not the way to build relationships. <a href="http://engadget.com/entry/9143716625193573/">engadget also weighs in with their opinion</a> - I'd be interested in hearing yours.

ctitanic

08-06-2004, 03:11 PM

Just one question... from where all that information about new devices coming to the market is coming from? Well, that's the source of information that HP should find and close. To me, to request this kind of agreement is unrespecful, period.
As a web master myself I´m with you too. I wont change the freedom of saying what I want and how I want for anything in this life, and God knows that I have paid a big price to do that.

OSUKid7

08-06-2004, 03:14 PM

Good decision Jason. :) I can understand a NDA, but deleting rumor posts? Come on, that's a no-no. Hopefully other community sites will feel the same and HP will change their policy.

Jason Dunn

08-06-2004, 03:14 PM

Just one question... from where all that information about new devices coming to the market is coming from?

From inside HP, typically their sales staff who have PowerPoint slide decks showing upcoming models. They give presentations to big enterprise clients. Although sometimes I think those big enterprise clients get the slides from the HP sales guys then send them to their friends - "Hey, check out these new Pocket PCs!" - then they show up everywhere.

Ultimately I believe HP is trying to clamp down on the wrong location - it's not enthusiast sites that are leaking information, it's HP themselves.

TheZodiac

08-06-2004, 03:15 PM

The PDA market isnt the only place HP tries to strong arm peopel into hushing or whatever.

My company resells HP-UX, and they have used their tactics in a similar fasion. AND, we also resigned from their "programs".

HP = huffu puffy !

ctitanic

08-06-2004, 03:20 PM

Just one question... from where all that information about new devices coming to the market is coming from?

Ultimately I believe HP is trying to clamp down on the wrong location - it's not enthusiast sites that are leaking information, it's HP themselves.

That´s my point.

Another question? Does HP really believe that if you start to moderate your forum and delete those post pointing to that kind of info, you will keep the same popularity that you have right now.

Let me tell you something HP... I dog Lucky would be a good candidat to replace the person who thought about this stupid agreement ;) If you are interested on him, I can send you his resume :D

ctitanic

08-06-2004, 03:25 PM

BTW, who was the genius from HP that thought that it was a good idea to install a beta version of SE in some h2200s during a Pocket PC show and then a few weeks later to come with the statement that they wont release SE on those devices. That is showing me a big disrespect for us, customers and supporters. :evil:

Paragon

08-06-2004, 03:37 PM

HP...who the hell is HP? Aren't they the guys who used to make really cool Ipaqs? Sometimes the king of the hill gets a bit to big for his own good.

Dave

palmsolo

08-06-2004, 03:38 PM

Ultimately I believe HP is trying to clamp down on the wrong location - it's not enthusiast sites that are leaking information, it's HP themselves.

Exactly, they give presentations all over the world to business customers who leak it all over the place and then try to stifle excitement in the PDA community. I would think most of the time this excitement is good for the products, unless of course we are talking about the lousy 1715.

If HP wants to keep the lid on news then they need to limit what enterprise customers are being shown or tighten the NDA with those people.

Kati Compton

08-06-2004, 03:51 PM

To me, something that really stands out is word choice. Jason says he used to be a member of their "Enthusiast Program". That sounds pretty good. The title of the program now? Evangelist. To me, that word is over the top. When someone is an evangelist of basically anything, but I'm mainly talking about a gadget, a PDA, an OS, etc, it generally means that they promote it to the exclusion of all others, will not permit anything "bad" (even if true!) to be said about it, and are generally not very fun to talk to. HP seems to want these sites to act more as employees than third-party enthusiasts, and unless they're going to pony up a salary, health plan, and retirement plan, it's a bit unreasonable.

As a moderator, deleting posts is not my favorite job (despite what some may think. ;) If you want to talk about that, though - start a new thread - don't use this one). Especially *informative* posts that are not in any way antagonistic, etc. It's one thing for a company to ask the staff to not post in exchange for the staff being able to see these devices. But to ask essentially that the USERS not be able to post? About info that's "out" anyway?

If they're worried about internal info getting out, they need to work on their internal practices, and stop the problem THERE rather than requiring that everyone else clean up their mess.

And what about information posted at the FCC? They seem to be saying that people aren't allowed to post "Hey - I saw this device at the FCC - is it the new ipaq?". I'm sorry, but that is most definitely public information. And if they don't like it, then they can lobby for FCC filings to not be made public. But until then, people are certainly allowed to look at those filings, and it would *NOT* be considered "industrial espionage" or anything like that. I mean... it's PUBLIC. It's as public as you can get. Not leaked, just PUBLIC.

I hope that very few sites agree to these terms. Maybe if HP gets an overwhelming number of rejections to this, they'll stop and wonder why. Maybe.

wocket

08-06-2004, 03:52 PM

Ultimately I believe HP is trying to clamp down on the wrong location - it's not enthusiast sites that are leaking information, it's HP themselves.

Yeah too right. It's a case of we'll leak it, but on our terms.

From my point of view it is that sites like this one that are doing companies like HP big favours for usually nothing in return. Hell I would'nt have bought half of may PDA stuff if it was'nt for this site or saving up my pennies for my next PDA.

Way to go Jason and Chris for keeping your integrity :D

Boo and Hiss to the evil masinations of HP :evil:

Jonathan1

08-06-2004, 04:18 PM

:huh: WAY TO GO HP!!! :way to go: Way to alienate the people that generate sales and enthusiasm for your devices!!

I hate.... :deal:

This is about as brilliant as Palm going after those Palm enthusiast websites a few years back and will prob end up generating the same type of resentment. You DO NOT bite the hand that feeds you. HP needs to learn this. Otherwise expect Dell to catch some serious marketshare. The diff between this and Palm's clampdown is this has been up til now...in the dark. The site clampdown was rather public. I'm hoping that with Jason stepping up to the...:soapbox: Others will as well. This needs to get out and needs to stop before this becomes a trend.

Keep up the craptacular job HP.

:iamwithstupid:

PS...are these folks actively TRYING to get someone else to eat at their market share?!? :twak: Between this attitude and their new PoS devices I'm thinking my magic 8 ball is telling me: ALL SIGNS POINT TO HOLY CRAP YES. :byebye:
What the bloody heck is happening at that freaking company?!?!!? I have come to the firm conclusion there has to have been some internal shuffling of management. All this smells like a Dilbert type decision. Someone please stop the madness. Please! :bawl:

PPS- Heheh. I've having WAY to much fun with smilies today. :rainbowafro:

DaleReeck

08-06-2004, 04:19 PM

Why on earth would HP want to stop info about "rumored" products? Its those sort of rumors that keep people excited about these new products.

I understand the reasons that companies try to keep those things underwraps, but there needs to be a balance between secracy and creating excitement for new products.

In an earlier thread, I said I would gladly become an "HP whore" if I got some of their stuff early :) But even I would do it if it meant stopping discussion of future products. Discussing new rumors are some of the biggest, best threads around in the forums.

mmarlor

08-06-2004, 04:25 PM

Jason - and Chris - I have immense respect for you both on this one. I can easily understand how some webmasters would have felt they had no choice but to accept and comply with the terms, although perhaps some would have had no problem with them in any case.

Either way, I think you both deserve a big pat on the back for standing your ground. Next time they try it, agree on the proviso that you in turn can have editorial control over the hp.com website ;-)

dean_shan

08-06-2004, 04:31 PM

Yeah it doesn't make sence, maybe Jonathan's right, they are trying to kill off the iPaq.

Chris Leckness

08-06-2004, 04:32 PM

Ultimately HP can run their business any way they want. This enthusiast program was a perk to me, and to this site, not something that I have a right to. They changed the rules, I don't like the new rules, and I quit. HP owes me nothing more than that.

Jason, You are correct, they owe us nothing. On the other hand, they do owe their once faithful users the opportunity to read reviews from people they know and respect. People that are not going to candy coat a mediocre product.

Jason, PPCT is one of, if not the BEST source for Pocket PC news, info, and conversation online. Did HP just fall off the turnip truck? Can they not see the value of PPCT having a review of their products? Oh boy.... I could go on.[/b]

szamot

08-06-2004, 04:36 PM

Let's see if I understand this right. You are not allowed to take part in any rumors or leaked information if you will, and when the product comes out you have to ask HP if you can say that you are not 110% happy with its functionality. Yeah, sounds like a dictatorship to me not to mention the worse kind of censorship. This is very reminiscent of the communist era paranoia. Corporate America = bunch of whinny wankers, grow up and get over it. Then again look who is trying to run this company.

Darren Behan

08-06-2004, 04:41 PM

sooby77

08-06-2004, 04:42 PM

HP's latest foolish move is a perfect example of a company losing touch with the people. Instead of seeing the rumors to be something bad and being defensive about it, embrace them. In fact, use it to your advantage. The glass is half full/empty depending on how you look at it.

I hope it backfires, 'nuff said.

Jacob

08-06-2004, 04:45 PM

I'll concur with the popular sentiment.. this is stupid.

I've seen on this site times when someone will post one thing one day implying that they are happy with their device and it seems the next day a rumour will come out about a new device and that same person will all of a sudden be salivating over the possibility of upgrading.

I've felt the call of "upgrade-lust" myself at times when I've seen such rumours posted.

I suspect that they believe that their corporate deals are too important to alienate by limiting the information they give them.

Jonathan1

08-06-2004, 04:49 PM

Hmmm. Jason. Any chance of a poll on this topic. I'm not suggesting rubbing HP's face in the dirt or anything but I'm wondering if this news would have a negative impact on a user's purchase decision for a product? Granted the average user will never know of these fascist type rules but it makes me wonder for the more suave, informed PPC user if this could slightly alter their attitude towards HP and their product line. :?:

gorkon280

08-06-2004, 05:01 PM

Jonathon Watkins

08-06-2004, 05:19 PM

Alienating your biggest supporters is not the way to build relationships.

Fully in agreement with you Jason.

What are HP thinking? :?

Jonathon Watkins

08-06-2004, 05:19 PM

PPS- Heheh. I've having WAY to much fun with smilies today. :rainbowafro:

Not possible! :wink:

They let you express feelings that may otherwise give rise to unfortunate word choices, if you know what I mean. :wink:

So, what next in the HP soap opera?......... :lol:

miradu

08-06-2004, 05:24 PM

Jason, you made the right choice; I would have done the same on my site (TreoCentral.com).

The NDA'ed information is standard across the industry - I've always felt that the terms that PalmOne or other companies give are resonable. We get early info, so that our users can get accurate, indepth, and timely info. This is good for the companies because we (independant websites) give a much different news item than say, cnet will. It provides a depth of view to the launch of a product that will appeal to a different type of user (the first adopter etc).

But I've always felt that forums are off limit. We are not simply a shill for the company. Our users are not just passive people who answer first time users questions. They are an active group, and one of the fun things that fuels these discussion boards are the few threads talking about rumors. I could not even imagine trying to moderate those threads. I've always felt that the forums should allow as much free speech as we can, with the moderators censoring as little as possible. In fact, I should note, the only informal request from PalmOne my site has ever agreed to is to remove links to hacked firmware for the Treo that unlocks it. And under the DMCA those links were illegal, so we agreed to comply.

Shame on HP. They hold a type of power over these sites in supplying early reviews, information, but they will not ever control these sites. This was an attempted abuse of their power. Shame on HP. They do not understand their users if they think that it's alright for community sites to censor their forums to keep rumors quiet. I only hope that this idea doesn't spread to other companies because I would hate to have to end my relationship with PalmOne over this inane idea.

Good Job Jason, and to the other site owners who said no.

-Michael Ducker
Senior Editor, TreoCentral.com
[email protected]

lapchinj

08-06-2004, 05:30 PM

Thank you Jason! Three cheers :clap: :clap: :clap: . This is the integrity and accountability to your subscribers that I imagined was present at PockePCThoughts.com when I got hooked on the site. Now I'm 100% convinced that this is the case. :D

Trashing peoples thoughts (in this case subscriber posts) stinks of an earlier era that unfortunately hasn't disappeared in all parts of the world or even in some parts that it should have. :(

Actually asking someone to trash somebody else's posts is the embodiment of pure unadulterated SLEEZE :twisted:.

Maybe they should enrole in one of your classes. :roll:

Jeff-

MikeUnwired

08-06-2004, 05:34 PM

To me, something that really stands out is word choice. Jason says he used to be a member of their "Enthusiast Program". That sounds pretty good. The title of the program now? Evangelist. To me, that word is over the top. When someone is an evangelist of basically anything, but I'm mainly talking about a gadget, a PDA, an OS, etc, it generally means that they promote it to the exclusion of all others, will not permit anything "bad" (even if true!) to be said about it, and are generally not very fun to talk to. HP seems to want these sites to act more as employees than third-party enthusiasts, and unless they're going to pony up a salary, health plan, and retirement plan, it's a bit unreasonable.

I prefer being an Exhortationist -- someone that encourages people to take positive action, but, not at the exclusion of other positive action.

Most product leaks come from people sharing information that's under NDA to their organization or that they stumbled upon by accident -- and of course, leaks from the top source of credible information -- the FCC. But, the overwhelming amount of leaked info comes from sources that are under NDA. I've always been uncomfortable posting leaked info as I know it's not really supposed to be out and about. There are people's jobs and lives tied to every product release and I'd hate to think that a post of leaked information caused one of those people pain or discomfort -- or even job loss -- in any way.

Now, once the product is out -- that's a different story. If the hard working team of people didn't get it right -- well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'm sort of surprised that HP isn't requiring their Evangelist members to live by the rule my Mom had -- if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Maybe HP should take a page from the Jeff Hawkins "outting" of the Treo 600 -- leverage the buzz rather than try to plug the leaks. Managing buzz for good rather than squashing leaks is playing to win and not playing "not to lose."

bjornkeizers

08-06-2004, 05:36 PM

I'm not suggesting rubbing HP's face in the dirt or anything but I'm wondering if this news would have a negative impact on a user's purchase decision for a product? Granted the average user will never know of these fascist type rules but it makes me wonder for the more suave, informed PPC user if this could slightly alter their attitude towards HP and their product line. :?:

Well Jonathan, Pleased to meet you. You've found your first suave, informed PPC user. I wasn't really interested in the new units, but I was considering the top of the line 4700 as one of the replacements for my 1915 - I just took it off the list. These kind of fascist tactics clinched it.

HP just doesn't understand that we - the power users - can make or break their new products. We're all well informed, and we know the difference between a good and a bad product. We will shower you with praise if you do good, but we'll also nail you to the wall if you deserve it - like the 1715. They can't tell us what we can and can't say, and I applaud Jason's decision in this matter (Not that we'd leave him much choice :D )

I'd rather have a community that can freely discuss these products and issues then a site that is forced to moderate their users just so they can get units and feed us the party line.

whydidnt

08-06-2004, 05:40 PM

You did the right thing Jason. :D

I'm sure HP is trying to protect sales of current devices, but let's face it if the information is out there, that ship has already sailed, so to speak.

Their previous program made the sense from every practical matter, yet they decided to kill it, as if rumor posting on enthusiast sites was why their stock has been sliding. :!:

We shouldn't be surprised, as from any practical standpoint, HP has been making one boneheaded decision after another since the 1st of the year. It is becoming more and more obvious they don't want "enthusiast users" and would much prefer to market to Joe Consumer - I think they are probably trying to market to a segment that doesn't exist yet. :|
:?

Kati Compton

08-06-2004, 05:41 PM

Granted the average user will never know of these fascist type rules but it makes me wonder for the more suave, informed PPC user if this could slightly alter their attitude towards HP and their product line. :?:
Maybe not, but they don't have to know about the rules to be affected by them. If they search for information pre-release because their friend told them something cool was coming out, they're going to see the sites that have the pre-release info, not the sites that delete all the posts. If they ask on the "Evangelist" sites about these devices, and their post gets deleted, what are they going to think? Will the moderator there send them the terms of the HP NDA? Or will it just be "we don't allow this discussion"? Or no comment at all?

And if they're just searching for "pocket pc" because they don't know if they want an ipaq or not, and a large number of the sites they find with this search have reviews of a bunch of devices *except* the ipaqs, they may wonder why, ask, and be told. Or they wouldn't wonder why, they just will think there aren't any new HPs.

The users that just buy at brick and mortars and don't research online won't be affected. But devices like the 4700 don't seem to be IN those stores all that much.

Also, not all people making the PDA-related purchasing decisions for companies will frequent the forums. It's possible that these type of sales will be enough to make the loss of end-user sales irrelevant (to HP).

Rob Alexander

08-06-2004, 05:52 PM

I'm not suggesting rubbing HP's face in the dirt or anything but I'm wondering if this news would have a negative impact on a user's purchase decision for a product?

I imagine it would for me. Not in the sense of some sort of Holy vow never to buy from HP because of this one thing, but just as one more nail in their coffin when I look at all the decisions they've been making lately... no upgrade to SE, a poor sad set of new models, etc. Six months ago, I would have said I just preferred HP PPCs for all those little indefinable reasons. Now I'm pretty much indifferent. Really they're lucky that so few people are agreeing to this. If these guys really did what HP wanted, it would hurt HP most of all.

Rob Alexander

08-06-2004, 05:53 PM

HP...who the hell is HP? Aren't they the guys who used to make really cool Ipaqs?

No, they're the guys who bought the guys who used to make really cool iPaqs.

kosmicki

08-06-2004, 05:57 PM

Actually, the rumors were one of the main reasons I got my 2200. I knew that nothing that great was coming out, I wanted a CF slot, nothing had them. (or would cost to damn much for a year or so)

If it was not for the rumors I would have waited, and perhaps changed my mind about an HP. (doubtful, but you get the point)

On the side topic of smilies, this one is just plain weird: :alfdance:

gohtor

08-06-2004, 06:04 PM

I'll add my two cents in support of Jason on this.

HP's recent customer/community landmarks:

1) SE upgrade policy of lack thereof
2) An underwhelming line of new iPaqs
3) An ultra restrictive/big brother approach to their 'evangelist' program

I'm not sure how many more missteps HP will make to drive away customers & sour the community but I personally don't need anymore. I'm done with HP til they get their act together.

db

well having a warrenty where replacing a cracked screen costs more than buying it refurbed online did it for me =).

Not to mention also they almost tried to put the blame on me when my rom got messed up from recording audio directly to the ipaq filestore (overflooding it causing some kind of rom corruption issue. My guess some kind of fat table issue)

rumburak

08-06-2004, 06:24 PM

Maybe we witness a new "HP way"...

drop

08-06-2004, 06:25 PM

Well said, everyone.

When competitors pull out of a market, bad things happen.

HP is shifting the blame on the resentment over no-upgrade-for-existing-units on "Enthusiast sites".

I have wanted a new device for a quite while, but there is no satisfied device and company to buy from.

Come on, everybody. Let's develop products and do business the right way. Let's don't forget there are other contenders in the PDA market. How could Pocket PC as a technology advance with crap like this happening?

Kati Compton

08-06-2004, 06:26 PM

Oh - if no one is allowed to post about upcoming HPs before they're officially released, we can't post about places taking pre-orders for the units, now can we? :razz:

D.psi

08-06-2004, 07:13 PM

Jason, I think you did the right thing, as all have said to date... :beer:

I don't claim to be a power user, but I am one of the few local people who have a PPC. People do ask me for my opinion when they consider things. I have to date only bought HP. But looking back, I do wonder how I could possibly justify this. The one exception was the 12 bit colour issue with the 4xx, 52x and 54x series Jornadas, but then again they didn't really have much choice. :?

The lack of upgrade for my 2210 concerns me. My wife and I may not purchase as often as some, but I would really question future buys of HP products at this point.

As for their Evangelist program, aren't they guaranteeing that they in the long run have none? If a forum is moderated to the point that HP wants, it would drive out users, and hence push the site outside of the top 10 category, hence out of competition for Evangelist status. Or am I just being dense? This is a questionable decision. I don't know what is driving it from within HP, but I'm thinking there's going to be a lot of pushing back. There's only so much that a reasonably honest person will take. And I'm guessing that Jason is more than reasonably honest, from his adherence to the various NDAs over the years. (We've really tormented you around major product releases :oops: !!!!)

D.psi

alexm

08-06-2004, 07:27 PM

[i]"The worst thing would be to have to pretend I'm off in la-la land and not be able to even post a link to a new device that the rest of the community is buzzing about.

I totaly agree with you Jason!
It's pleasant to see such a united point of view on the subject! :clap:

Mark Johnson

08-06-2004, 07:28 PM

If they ask on the "Evangelist" sites about these devices, and their post gets deleted, what are they going to think? Will the moderator there send them the terms of the HP NDA? Or will it just be "we don't allow this discussion"? Or no comment at all?

...the Party Chairman has declared such thinking to be against the public good. Report to your local re-education officer...

mkrigsman

08-06-2004, 08:41 PM

It's amazing what crazy ideas go on inside those corporate walls sometimes :roll:

Good move to leave the program.

christak

08-06-2004, 08:49 PM

...are these folks actively TRYING to get someone else to eat at their market share?!? :twak: Between this attitude and their new PoS devices I'm thinking my magic 8 ball is telling me: ALL SIGNS POINT TO HOLY CRAP YES. :byebye:
What the bloody heck is happening at that freaking company?!?!!? I have come to the firm conclusion there has to have been some internal shuffling of management. All this smells like a Dilbert type decision. Someone please stop the madness. Please! :bawl:

I agree completely...
:?

karen

08-06-2004, 09:04 PM

Jaap van Ees

08-06-2004, 09:32 PM

It's obvious. HP is going down. Well, maybe not all the way, but a looong way down .... before somewhere, deep in the recesses of the corporate buildings, and by a stroke of good fortune, someone with a brain is found. :mrgreen:

Jonathan1

08-06-2004, 09:44 PM

Hmm that’s a new one. Usually my magic 8 balls is pretty vague about its predictions. I just shook it and it said:

Expect to see a corpse swinging over HP’s double door entrance next year when iPaq sales drop 47%. 8O

Hmm. Oh well. I yield to the might of the magic 8 ball. :)

OldManTod

08-06-2004, 09:45 PM

of a number of folks moving from HP to Dell...

I made the switch and I have seen a number of folks that have made the switch, could this be the demise??

bjornkeizers

08-06-2004, 09:48 PM

Jonathon Watkins

08-06-2004, 11:00 PM

Maybe we witness a new "HP way"...

Welcome Rumburak. Maybe we do, but it sure ain't the 'Rules of the Garage'. (http://www.itstime.com/apr2002a.htm)

Believe you can change the world.
Work quickly, keep the tools unlocked, work whenever.
Know when to work alone and when to work together
Share - tools, ideas. Trust your colleagues.
No politics. No bureaucracy. (These are ridiculous in a garage.)
The customer defines a job well done.
Radical ideas are not bad ideas.
Invent different ways of working.
Make a contribution everyday. If it doesn't contribute, it doesn't leave the garage.
Believe that together we can do anything.
Invent.

I respected Hewlett-Packard. Let's not talk about HP. :|

scargill

08-06-2004, 11:15 PM

I'm just going to repeat what everybody else said; thanks to Jason & everyone else for keeping the integrity of themselves and PPCT. This is the kind of thing that makes PPCT one of the best websites I visit, mind about the best for PPC's
Someone said "who is HP, isn't it the company who made them really cool Ipaqs" and I believe the answer is NO, that was Compaq!
I will still buy HP for printers, but very little more; I think the hx4700 is out of the question now and the X30 or the Toshiba 820 look like the PPC's for me.

Damion Chaplin

08-06-2004, 11:51 PM

HOLY LEAPIN' LIZARDS!!! 8O

What in tarnation is HP thinking?

Facist Regime anyone? We'll let you see the new iPAQs if you join. Oh, you can't tell anyone about them though. Not until we say Simon Says Go.

This is the third craptastically stupid decision that's come out of HP this year, and everyone here agrees!

Who the heck is running that company over there!?
HMMMMM..... Could it be....... SATAN?! :devilboy:

I say we start a pool to see how many alienating decisions HP makes this year. I say we're due for at least 2 more. Any takers?

Howard2k

08-06-2004, 11:55 PM

Great move guys.

Site like this one and Ipaqhq are actually doing HP a favour. They take a certain amount of load off HP's tech support team and provide a base for the (generally) positive sharing of product information.

This is just a silly silly silly move by HP.

klinux

08-07-2004, 12:14 AM

Go Jason.

Witness the # of Aple rumors sites. Rumors are good for business. When it is BAD for business, it is because you have made a BAD product, not because of the rumors!

ctmagnus

08-07-2004, 12:16 AM

I predict that Carly Fiorina/HP will be ridiculed on an episode of South Park.

debbi8

08-07-2004, 02:11 AM

With all of the negative press they've been getting lately, you'd think that they would go out of their way to avoid being subbed for Kenny! http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/sp/stanico.gif

Len Egan

08-07-2004, 03:17 AM

Jason did the ONLY thing he could do. Nuke post?! What about the constitution of the great United States. HP doesn't get it. Enthusiasts, who have made HP compete with PalmOne, are a group that they WANT to be talking about their products. Folks like me that will search all the PPC sites for "inside" info are the ones that are buying (and want to continue buying) HP pocket pc's. They are making a big marketing mistake just like they made a big service mistake.

A year or so ago, they shipped their service overseas to India. When I called for service on my iPAQ or my laptop, I found someone on the other end that I couldn't understand very well (I kept having to ask them to repeat themselves) and they can't speak if they are taken off "script". As a result, I, for one, got disgusted with their service and bought a Toshiba E-805. Sure it has VGA and 128mb. Both things I wanted (not to mention the dual card slots), but it was a couple bad experiences with the overseas service that got me to move.

It may seem insignificant, but I had been an EXTREMELY loyal HP guy. I had a 3650, a 3830, a 2215, and a 4155. I felt that they didn't care about me enough anymore to provide me with the best service, but, rather, only the least expensive service for them.

Now they want to tell me that if I post info on a "participating site" I will get blown away within 48 hours of my post? Again, they are showing how much they care about me...and about you.

bnycastro

08-07-2004, 03:25 AM

Freedom!!! Freedom!!! Freedom!!!

HP you're shooting yourselves in the foot with this attitude... and your pouring alcohol on the wound (with the 17xx)... can you say OUCH!? :devilboy:

Vidge

08-07-2004, 03:33 AM

When I first read about this over at iPaqHQ, I have to admit to being dumbfounded. I mean, why bite the hand that feeds you? I am shocked at HP's tactics and I applaud Jason & Chris for doing the right thing for their respective sites.

I'm a new hp owner, having purchased my 4155 about a month ago. This site & iPaqHQ were instrumental in my purchasing decision and have been extremely helpful to me as I have learned the PPC operating system. What is obvious to me is that HP doesn't recognize the value of these sites to the non-enterprise customer. Perhaps we are not a large enough portion of HP's sales for us to even matter. Whatever the reason, I think their attitude is a slap in the face to us. This, coupled with HP's lack of a WM2003SE update, will make my 4155 my first and last HP PDA.

ctmagnus

08-07-2004, 03:35 AM

bnycastro

08-07-2004, 03:52 AM

HP you're shooting yourselves in the foot with this attitude... and your pouring alcohol on the wound (with the 17xx)... can you say OUCH!?

I wouldn't say alcohol... more like vinegar. Painful and not at all useful.

I sit corrected... but then again I can't stand the smell of vinegar (I really get sick) so maybe that's why it didn't come to mind :devilboy:

Len Egan

08-07-2004, 04:01 AM

And the z17xx the type of device that made HP a favorite. The 36XX was soooo cool! This new device is a piece of !@#?&!!! Cheap. 32mb ram. No wireless. What the heck! This is the same HP? Same market leader? You can buy a Dell with more options, WIFI and Bluetooth AND $80 less. Are you kidding me!!!!

iPAQ_ace

08-07-2004, 04:34 AM

Totally agree with you Jason and Chris. I feel the exact same way and that's why you won't see iPAQabilities joining that kind of program anytime soon.

I feel that we owe it to all enthusiast to share the information that is being leaked to us because we always want the next best Pocket PC.

Shame on HP - they should be making it easier for enthusiast websites to post in-depth reviews of newly released iPAQ's - not the other way around.

whitelyt

08-07-2004, 06:05 AM

Not getting into names but it just amazes me that HP has a don't care attitude. Chris and I at iPaqHQ have went round and round with HP to no avail. I told them in my last email to that they was making a huge mistake. The response that I got was no short of saying "Have a nice life".

Without even speaking to Jason my email echoed all of his concerns. HP wants to quench talk of pre-released products but at the same time they are leaking the information internally. The playing field was clearly unbalanced and left things wide open for sites to not play by the rules and get away with it. It has happened. HP has turned a deaf ear to our concerns.

It is always a big mistake to not listen to your users.

ctmagnus

08-07-2004, 06:21 AM

HP wants to quench talk of pre-released products but at the same time they are leaking the information internally.

Maybe they want to start iPaqthoughts.com? 8O

christak

08-07-2004, 06:31 AM

For what it's worth -- I had posted a link to this thread in an ongoing discussion on the HP forum. My post was promptly edited by HP and the link was removed...

I guess they don't want us talking about this either...

(If I owned any HP stock, I'd be dumping it pretty quickly. These folks have lost touch with the real world. IMHO)

:wink:

Chris Leckness

08-07-2004, 06:46 AM

HP.com Forum mods deleted your reference to this post? That is ridiculous. Grrr... I was almost over the whole thing.

ricksfiona

08-07-2004, 10:48 AM

Gee HP, don't give me another reason to drop you altogether! I'm angry that HP moved their service department to India. I spoke with a tech. support person and they helped me solve the problem, but it wasn't pretty. I decided to stop them and clean up the problem to a satisfactory conclusion. It would've taken 3x the time at the rate tech. support was working.

It took 2 months to have a lease agreement completed for a small business client of mine. This client has excellent credit. The lease guy dropped the ball so many times, it just baffled me. We had to shove business down his throat to make the lease happen.

It took 2 months for another client to receive their new server. A server that could handle 25 users. Why 2 months for a simple server?

The one person who could actually help sort out the problems I was having at HP was suddenly not at HP anymore? The one person who I could actually depend on?

Their new line of Pocket PC's suck. Period.

All this wreaks of politics and these people making these HUGE mistakes not getting fired because of it.

I need a new server and I love their server products. But the nightmares of the past caution me.... Do I go forward on this?

I think their should be a list of good/suck departments at HP. Here are my nominations:

Good:
Business desktops builds
Technical Support (servers)

Suck:
Customer Service (everywhere)
Technical Support (desktops)
Small Business Leasing
Server builds
Regional Sales
Pocket PC Engineering

I was a HP disciple for almost two decades and it's really tough to let them go... I guess ALL good things come to an end eventually.

mrkablooey

08-07-2004, 02:32 PM

For what it's worth -- I had posted a link to this thread in an ongoing discussion on the HP forum. My post was promptly edited by HP and the link was removed...

keep posting it. :wink:

and KUDOS to the Thoughts team for their decision. :way to go:

HP --> :microwave:

Jason Dunn

08-07-2004, 04:07 PM

sracer

08-07-2004, 05:44 PM

Although I think that people are overreacting over the lack of an SE upgrade to the 2215, I believe that HP has definitely crossed the line with those demands.

ctitanic is right on the money, HP should be pursuing the source of the leaks... but THAT would require that they "go after their own". They know full-well where that will lead.

Companies like Dell and HP think that they can bully individuals. I strongly urge Chris and Jason to contact industry media like CNet and the like to get them to pick up this story. Last year, Dell denied that there were any problems with the Axim X5's that shipped with WM2003... and instructed their customerCare personel to refuse to accept any problem reports related to it.

It was only after CNet was contacted by a few of us disgruntled customers, and CNet ran a story on it, did Dell finally admit to the problem.

There's a consistent pattern emerging with regard to HP's business practices in the PDA arena... looks like it is time to bring those practices to light.

Hx4700

08-07-2004, 05:55 PM

Jason,
I don't post often over the two years I've been here. But I did support you with a Lifetime Subscription and have never regretted it as this is my number one site to go to each time I sign on to Surf.
I just wanted to add another vote in supporting your actions with HP. :way to go:
I am still buying an Hx4705. Because it is the PPC with what I want on it (624mh, VGA, touchpad, (well I think its neat!), and NO camera). But I must admit I have a bad taste in my mouth over HP now. So I will just be reserved (like NOT) in recommending HP to anyone I know. If there was a close call in choices of new PPC I wanted to get and I was adding up features, HP starts off with a minus count. But I have decided that the Hx4705 is the best fit for me - for the device - not the company.
My first PPC after a Visor (and a Royal DiVinci before that-ugh) was the HP3600. Then a Jornada 568. Then Dell X5. I have no brand loyality I guess. I go for what is usually the best at the time.
JMHO - Ron...

Rob Alexander

08-07-2004, 08:13 PM

Jason did the ONLY thing he could do. Nuke post?! What about the constitution of the great United States.

I really do agree with the rest of your post, but the constitution? Even if Jason were located in the United States, which he's not, the US constitution still wouldn't require him to provide you with a forum for your opinions. All the constitution does is guarantee that the US government cannot infringe on your right to free speech. It does not require that other citizens must provide you with the means to do it, nor does it prohibit HP from trying to make a deal like this. It may be a stupid thing for them to try to do from a marketing and public relations standpoint, but even if Jason agreed, it would not violate your constitutional rights.

ricksfiona

08-07-2004, 10:41 PM

Thanks for all the support guys, it's always nice to see a community supporting the decision I made. I'm a little depressed that I'll no longer have the latest and greatest hardware from HP, because that helped me answer questions and support all of you, but the price for this got to be too high.

IMHO, this is the best site and you have never let us down. You speak for all of us and I am glad that you didn't bow to HP's ridiculous requirements.

08-07-2004, 11:39 PM

J2EE

08-08-2004, 09:02 AM

HP have turned themselves away from their customers. I have purchased a 2210 a year ago. As we *ALL KNOW* the rubber grips is CRAP. I had it replaced 4 times and just a week ago, it developed a "blister" and needs to be replaced again. Now, I sincerely believe that HP looks into the interest of its customer and was hoping that I will get an upgrade to 2003SE. No way, HP says....buy a new machine to get that.

And now, this censorship CRAP thingy....this is in bad taste. HP, do not *FORCE* your customers. What goes around comes around. Go ahead and create all this *GOODWILL*......we wish you luck in this era of CRM. As for me, I've had enough of this ********. I cannot contain my disgust to HP's current management for creating the *GOODWILL* to all current Ipaq users.

Thank You very much.

Now.....only if DELL could capitalise on this with their AXIMS.....

J2EE

08-08-2004, 09:15 AM

Just look at all the recent threads; not just this one, but all the threads about the new line as well.

I haven't seen *a single person* defend HP on this or say 'Yes, we like the way HP is doing things at this moment' The way they deal with their customers, the way they treat their products and followers is pissing a lot of people off. And we are HP's most loyal followers! I'm willing to bet that most of you reading this post have an Ipaq right now, or that you've owned a previous generation. We're not just a bunch of people saying 'HP sucks' without a reasonable argument. We know our stuff. It sickens me that HP doesn't take us serious. It also means I won't be buying from them anytime soon, and I'm retiring my stamp of approval for HP.

I am a loyal HP supporter and in fact I work with HP as a partner in the Enterprise market. I am utterly disappointed with this kind of decisions. And you're right...we know our stuff. I bet most of us are veterans and professionals IT people for donkey years and we use our Ipaqs in our work. I even switched over from Palms. My buying decision in the future of HP products will be guided accordingly in line with HPs ugrading philosphy of not supporting exsiting users. Imagine....to get new OS upgrades, you would have to buy a new machine...even Larry Ellison dare not dump Peoplesoft users just like that.

bothari

08-08-2004, 01:09 PM

And since HP is basically a simple reseller of private labeled Chinese Pocket Pee Cees who cares anyway??

When did they last have their own product? I guess nothing since the 5550. We shouldn't even include them as an OEM.

I have no idea how it was with the later ipaqs, but the 36xx series was a bought design, either from htc or someone related to htc (don't remember anymore) which is why the qtek ppc phone was so similar in hardware terms , basically a re-organised 36xx with a gsm module attached...

There's nothing new about this, every big make does it to some extent.

snazzy

08-08-2004, 05:22 PM

good move, I agree with you.

spireview

08-09-2004, 12:05 AM

Now it makes sense why Dave over at Dave's Ipaq was so fanatic these past few months refusing to acknowledge the existence of these new Ipaq's.

Jason Dunn

08-09-2004, 12:37 AM

Now it makes sense why Dave over at Dave's Ipaq was so fanatic these past few months refusing to acknowledge the existence of these new Ipaq's.

Bing. :wink:

[I bear no grudge towards any site that does sign up for HP's program though - everyone has the right to run their own communities the way they see fit.]

DavesiPAQ

08-09-2004, 02:44 AM

webagogue

08-09-2004, 01:38 PM

I think you made the right decision, Jason.

I guess I know where I will NOT be looking for my "news" and honest "reviews." :devilboy: Although I'd have my suspicions about anyone who recommended the rz1700.

Kati Compton

08-09-2004, 03:45 PM

Please, no ragging on sites that *have* accepted the terms, only on HP for setting them. ;)

Kati Compton
Community Moderator

webagogue

08-09-2004, 04:26 PM

Please, no ragging on sites that *have* accepted the terms, only on HP for setting them. ;)

Kati Compton
Community Moderator

I have no idea what you are talking about. :wink: I don't think I mentioned any names. :devilboy:

ctitanic

08-09-2004, 06:30 PM

I understand those who have decided not to post any rumor to please the agreement with HP, but what I dont understand and I wont understand is that anyone have deleted posts from a forum talking about these rumors just to please HP. I hope that nobody have done that.

Wiggster

08-09-2004, 08:28 PM

[Post deleted by moderator]

Just kidding :razzing: :devilboy:

Steven Cedrone

08-09-2004, 09:06 PM

[Post deleted by moderator]

Just kidding :razzing: :devilboy:

Very funny! :wink: :lol:

Steve

Janak Parekh

08-10-2004, 03:39 AM

It wasnt really hard for us to obey the rules of the CDA with HP. Our site never was a site for "rumored" iPAQ info. We really geared the site for questions, answers, reviews and news. So when this was offered to us we thought it was a good move for our community. I think some other sites like this one work hard on getting this information out therefore had a very hard decision to make.
I think it's very important that there are sites like yours as well as sites like ours. Each fulfills a different niche. That said, I think most of us here are saying that HP's efforts with the latest CDA sound more counterproductive even from a marketing standpoint.

--janak

sracer

08-10-2004, 04:55 AM

I think it's very important that there are sites like yours as well as sites like ours. Each fulfills a different niche. That said, I think most of us here are saying that HP's efforts with the latest CDA sound more counterproductive even from a marketing standpoint.

I think that handing over editorial control over to a corporation (which is what this essentially is) is not a good thing. Unless I misunderstand the issue, it would be possible that I could post something over at Dave's iPAQ forum that violates HP's rules and the moderators of that forum would be obligated to remove my post (or lose their standing with HP).

So if my understanding is correct, sites like Dave's iPAQ will no longer be impartial sources for information. That's too bad. :( Kinda like how Handango only allows "positive" reviews to be posted on software products. :roll:

Janak Parekh

08-10-2004, 05:26 AM

I think that handing over editorial control over to a corporation (which is what this essentially is) is not a good thing.
Well, all of us are under differing amounts of editorial control. There's no one "easy" answer, IMHO, since the CDA only covers "nonreleased" items, not other subjects.

So if my understanding is correct, sites like Dave's iPAQ will no longer be impartial sources for information.
And we're "impartial"? :P As I implied, it's more of a continuum/scale. For rumors, it's less useful, but for "help-style" forums, I'm not so sure. ;)

Anyway, as Kati implied, we should probably go back to focusing on ourselves, not Dave's or others, on this thread. :) Sorry for belaboring the subject.

--janak

toika

08-10-2004, 08:02 AM

I hope that very few sites agree to these terms. Maybe if HP gets an overwhelming number of rejections to this, they'll stop and wonder why. Maybe.

Hi kati

i'd agreed on your statements :wink: :wink:
HP is pissing off the user...

toika
aka beruang jahat
http://www.ipaqclub.com.my
http://www.mypdacafe.com
http://juta.com

KimVette

08-12-2004, 12:24 AM

HP...who the hell is HP? Aren't they the guys who used to make really cool Ipaqs?

Dave

No, that was Compaq, which was vanquished during the merger with the evil empire known as HP.

sracer

08-12-2004, 07:18 PM

I hope that very few sites agree to these terms. Maybe if HP gets an overwhelming number of rejections to this, they'll stop and wonder why. Maybe.

Hi kati

i'd agreed on your statements :wink: :wink:
HP is pissing off the user...

toika

This is a two-way street. It isn't just HP. Yes, HP set up the rules of the game. But people/sites would have to agree to play. I guarantee that if every person and site rejected HP's program, HP would back off. If every HP-focused site had a large splash page outlining exactly what HP is doing and their wishy-washy reasons for not providing an SE upgrade to the 2210, HP would be under tremendous pressure to address the issues in a satisfactory manner.

But this requires resolve by people. Not simply firing up a web browser and "signing" some lame petition. That won't accomplish anything. Writing letters (REAL "old school" letters sent via snail mail), contacting industry news organizations. Hammer HP anywhere and everywhere. But if people play HP's game, that isn't entirely HP's fault... those who agreed to play have partial responsibility.

When I bought a Dell Axim X5 Advanced last year preloaded with WM2003, I soon discovered that Dell deliberately and knowingly shipped a defective product. Not only that, but their CustomerCare centers were instructed not to accept incident reports related to WM2003. Many of us stormed the Dell forums, and other forums, wrote letters, called CustomerCare trying to get resolution. It was only AFTER we contacted the industry press and CNet ran a story on the issue did Dell grudgingly admit that there was a problem. (I returned the unit for a full refund just a day short of the 30 day return window)

phmurphy

08-13-2004, 04:05 PM

Hey,
Maybe you should start a new site called HP eVANGELIST. But then wouldn't it be a lie to have the "not affiliated with HP" (item #5) on the page because you WOULD be affiliated with HP. I like the truth later, much better than deceitful silence earlier.

Pat

J2EE

08-13-2004, 05:18 PM

[Post Deleted by HP]

:p

shanipaqman

08-13-2004, 08:10 PM

I want to know how we can let HP know our dissatisfaction with their operating procedures?

Is there a feedback email system that we can flood? Obviously, we can stop buying their products, hopefully others will start producing better models and we won't have to screw around with a BIG FAT company that forgets who made them who they are!

Jerks.

christak

08-13-2004, 09:31 PM

[Post Deleted by HP]

:p

...very funny!!
8)

KimVette

08-13-2004, 09:36 PM

Jump on their board and flood it if you feel like it, but it won't help matters. I was doing that and creating accounts faster than they could delete them, after they deleted my original criticism of their policy off of the board. I was very civil on the board with my initial post until they sent me an email informing me that criticising their support policies is against the guidelines. . . I then spammed every thread with the same message, with much more harsh and crude messages, since they didn't let polite messages stand. At the end I was trying to be more of a pain in the butt to prove a point, and create more work for them as a thanks to ignoring customer concerns.

In short, they don't want to hear criticism. if you post it on their board, they'll just delete the message and ignore you. if you email them, your message will go to the bit bucket and they won't change a darn thing. You could send snail mail but I'd bet that Carly is too busy playing with her corporate toys (Gulfstream jets) to care. The only thing that will work at this point is to simply stop buying HP products.

capo

08-13-2004, 11:38 PM

Thankfully, the market has a way of fixing these sorts of problems - if customers don't like HP products, services, etc. and buy Dells, Toshibas and such, eventually HP will either figure it out and go back to trying to please customers, or continue to lose business. My first PPC was a Compaq Aero (a slow brick with a dim screen compared to my current iPaq 4155.) In between was a 3835. For me, the 4155 is functionally a nearly-perfect device. It's elegant and I love it. I've not seen another model for which I'd willingly trade it. I'm definitely keeping an eye on the newer, faster VGA models with more memory, but HP's latest offerings are... well, more brick-like, IMHO, and disappointingly bland. It would seem that the HP of today may have little in common with the Hewlett Packard of old beyond corporate slogans. Pity.
We recently bought a Dell/EMC SAN solution after researching several vendors, including HP. HP's product wasn't bad, but Dell ate their lunch when it came to price. It's been that way with every major purchase we've made in the last 5 years. Not to be a shill for Dell (they certainly have their moments as well) but HP just doesn't seem to be realistic when it comes to price. Kind of like the rz1715 I saw at Best Buy...

Anyway, a tip of my hat to PPCT and others willing to say thanks, but no thanks. That's why I keep reading this site every day.