Broken Scenario, Episode 1: That Darn "X" Button

[Jason Dunn]

Since the first Pocket PC OS was shown to a group of MVPs in late 1999, we've all been complaining about the broken functionality of the "X" button. We've ranted, railed, begged and pleaded. We've made T-shirts mocking the "X" button. We've calmly explained scenario after scenario where a true clue button is needed. We've pointed out the fact that all OEMs bundle their own task switcher/killer applications, so maybe, just maybe, this is something the companies selling Pocket PCs want to see. We've told them stories about how one of the top questions new users ask is "How do I close applications?" and "Where do I get a program to help me switch tasks?". Almost five years later, nothing has changed, and we've all but given up. Still, I figured it couldn't hurt to tell one more story to reinforce what a broken scenario the "X" button is.<br /><br />I have a client named Jane. She's a doctor, the head of a large medical organization, and she needs to use technology to keep up to speed on the tremendous amount of data that flies back and forth between her office and doctors in her organization. She also needs to access her desktop remotely to process patient files, so I set up the Terminal Services Client for her. She was able to log in and view the program, then came the obvious question "Ok, how do I shut this down"? Here's a paraphrased version of the conversation:<br /><br /><b>Jason:</b> "Well, if you click on the little "X" it minimizes it, but doesn't close it. It keeps running in the background."<br /><br />[I can see now by the look on her face that she's trying to figure out why one symbol means one thing in the desktop world, and the same symbol means something completely different in the Pocket PC world.]<br /><br /><b>Jane:</b> "Ok, well, it can't stay running - that's a violation of our policies - I need to shut it down and disconnect."<br /><br /><b>Jason:</b> "Ok, sure, you just bring up the keyboard and click Control+Q because that's an exit command in all Microsoft Pocket PC programs and...um...that didn't work. Hmm. That's strange..."<!><br /><br /><b>Jane:</b> "Is there any other way to shut it down?"<br /><br /><b>Jason:</b> "Sure, you just have to go START > SETTINGS > SYSTEM > MEMORY > RUNNING PROGRAMS then click STOP ALL, and if it won't stop like it's apparently doing right now you just need to click on END PROGRAM when this little window pops up because the program is hung and you need to manually kill it. Easy, right?"<br /><br /><b>Jane:</b> Blank stare.<br /><br /><b>Jason:</b> "Yeah, it's a bit complex. Here, I'll just tell it to you a few more times and hopefully you'll remember it..."<br /><br />I'll likely end up installing WISbar or another task killer on her device, but the point of my story is that, from her standpoint, this is completely confusing and I agree. Microsoft maintains that there's no need for the "X" to close programs, because the memory management features of Windows Mobile will shut down programs as needed. In a perfect world, fine, we have no memory management issues.<br /><br />What about the security risks of having an RDP connection open to confidential data, and the only way to break that connection is to go through a six-step process? And with the new improvements in Windows Mobile 2003, that GPRS connection stays active even when the device is put into suspend mode - so you have a more or less permanent connection at risk!<br /><br />In our next thrilling episode of "Broken Scenario", I try to explain to my client Karl why a registry hack was needed in order for him to store his large email attachments on a storage card. Be sure to tune in next time!

[silver99]

Why don't you start up a petition to give to Microsoft to really show them how many users this really affects? I know I'd sign it.

- Silver

[karlth]

I've never heard a good explaination on why the X button minimizes the applications instead of closing them. I mean why wasn't there simply a minimize button and a close button? Too confusing?

Another massively stupid design decision by Microsoft is the lack of a generic "Cancel" button in their dialogs. Again I have never heard a good explaination for that "feature" either.

[Sven Johannsen]

Jason, I'm curious as to which PPC she has. If it is one of the two most popular, HP, it probably has iTask, which makes closing and switching apps easy, or Dell, it just needs to have a Switcher shortcut stuck in the startup folder to give easy switch or kill functionality.

If nothing else I'm sure you still have enough pull to comp her a copy of PocketPlus ;)

Not that I don't agree with the general consensus on the X, but I don't see it changing in anything called a Pocket PC. Maybe if there is an Longhorn-Handheld (Windows LH) or something someday, it could change without anyone losing face.

[Janak Parekh]

Why don't you start up a petition to give to Microsoft to really show them how many users this really affects? I know I'd sign it.
Won't work. We've essentially done that with our frontpage posts here.

--janak

[alex_kac]

I've personally grown to really like the smart minimize functionalty. However I agree that the ICON used for this is stupid. It should be a minimize icon with a possible tap/hold to Quit function.

[Sven Johannsen]

I've never heard a good explaination on why the X button minimizes the applications instead of closing them.

That's easy, but most don't want to believe it. The concept was that memory management would take care of, switching things off if neccessary, providing more rapid response in applications the user used frequently. That was the genisis of the 'don't close' concept. The choice of X has been acknowledged as maybe a bad idea in hindsight. With no task bar to show open programs, the - (dash) for minimize wasn't entirely appropriate either. There wasn't any precedence for a 'background this app' icon.

Actually for a number of the 'normal' users I deal with, it doesn't make much difference to them. Most were barely aware that programs were running in the background. They turned on their devices change through the apps they want to use and turn it off. The average user doesn't even see any particular performance hit when working with a half a dozen stock apps open. I often help folks with issues and find at least that many apps running and generally that is not the problem.

[Paul P]

Actually for a number of the 'normal' users I deal with, it doesn't make much difference to them. Most were barely aware that programs were running in the background. They turned on their devices change through the apps they want to use and turn it off. The average user doesn't even see any particular performance hit when working with a half a dozen stock apps open. I often help folks with issues and find at least that many apps running and generally that is not the problem.

It almost always catches up with me and results in a soft-reset when things slow down to a complete halt. Also, when you turn on the device and have lots of apps open it can sometimes freeze up.

[Garry [WMA]]

Maybe I'm missing something here but surely the correct way to terminate the RDP session is to log off the remote session. Otherwise you'll be leaving open the connection at the remote end which is just as bad as having the Pocket PC client open.

Also I could be wrong but I think that the Pocket PC Client will then detect this and close.

[Jonathan1]

As I've stated before anyone wanna take bets on how many of the Pocket PC OS development team members run app closer utils? I'm betting they all do.

This attitude from Microsoft on closing applications is asinine. Yo Bill G. Repeat after me......

THIS IS A POCKET PC.....NOT A PALM....THIS IS NOT RUNNING THE PALM OS AND AS SUCH THINGS SLOW DOWN WHEN YOU DON'T CLOSE APPS.

Even with memory management it sucks. Try opening up an adobe file, play some music, dink around with a spreadsheet, and browse the web. It might not be eating a high % of memory but its killing the system anyways. Maybe some of the newer CPU's can handle this better but on my Jornada 568 it can slow the system down. Period. Closing apps at least on my system is mandatory.


I have and always will be totally confused by Microsoft's attitude on this. These type of utils are one of the must have apps on any Pocket PC. Heck even OEM's are loading them. Would it be so hard for Microsoft to have an option under the control panel that would allow you to select the behavior of the X.

For the love of god Microsoft!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COMMON SENSE!!

[Mitch D]

For the love of god Microsoft!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COMMON SENSE!!

I would agree with you on this except for one small thing, as one of our fellow PPCT users signature line says;

"The only thing about common sense is it isn't"

[cab124]

This whole X button fiasco really frustrates me. It blows my mind that Microsoft is dictating to all users of their PocketPC OS that closing an app will not be permited without 12 clicks of the stylus or a third-party utility. It makes no sense!!!! Give me the option to close or minimize an app using buttons that feel intuitive relative to the desktop. Ahhhhhhhh.

I am really beginning to dislike many things about the Windows Mobile OS in general. I have to reboot my iPaq 2210 once or twice per day....often times the task switcher won't switch tasks without a reboot....I can't close an app using the X button (unbelievable).....it takes a PhD to configure basic connectivity.......I can't view my task list without the list always scrolling back to the top all on its own.....most third-party task switchers seem to cause the OS to hang at times....Pocket Outlook keeps ending up with duplicate entries..... All of this is really beginning to get old.

Aren't these just basic functions that any good OS should be able to do well???? Am I missing something???

I often feel that the Windows Mobile OS is roughly the equivalent of running Windows 3.1 on pocket hardware. I have always been a big fan of Microsoft and Windows, but this is the one area where I am really beginning to feel dissatisfied. There is no way I would ever switch to Palm, but I feel like I need to do a little griping!!

OK...&lt;deep breath>.....I feel better now.

[Jonathan1]

Oh and a question....how does the pocket pc handle memory?

Specifically if the OS isn't using X amount of RAM to store open apps is there a refresh charge to that RAM to maintain the unused portion of RAM?

I guess my question is does having a ton of applications open effect battery life?

[Jonathan1]

I often feel that the Windows Mobile OS is roughly the equivalent of running Windows 3.1 on pocket hardware. I have always been a big fan of Microsoft and Windows, but this is the one area where I am really beginning to feel dissatisfied. There is no way I would ever switch to Palm, but I feel like I need to do a little griping!!

OK...&lt;deep breath>.....I feel better now.

Actually I consider WM 2003 to be the Windows 9X of the mobile world. We have yet to see a Windows 2000/XP show up for the Pocket PC yet.

[surur]

I've personally grown to really like the smart minimise functionality. However I agree that the ICON used for this is stupid. It should be a minimise icon with a possible tap/hold to Quit function.

I agree. Smart minimise has grown on me too. Its especially useful in combination with Dynamo. I find myself multi-tasking a lot more than before, as I can easily see the state I left my apps in. Its like having multiple windows open on the desktop.

Smart minimise is not the problem. The problem is the lack of a task bar, so that one can easily shift between apps.

Surur

[ppcsurfr]

I've personally grown to really like the smart minimize functionalty. However I agree that the ICON used for this is stupid. It should be a minimize icon with a possible tap/hold to Quit function.

I agree with Alex...

Or maybe have the Spb Pocket Plus model which let's you set it up the way you want it... tap X for minimize, gesture X for Close... or gesture X for minimize and tap X for close...

This I think saves screen space and still gives full functionality to the single close/smart-minimize icon...

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

[huangzhinong]

I am the minority here. I like the minimalization button very much.

Assuming there is only one icon available, I guess most people will still choose minimalization icon, not close since closing will just make PPC a single task OS. The problem now is if we have enough space for two icons at the right corner. If you never use hand to operate PPC, sure two icons are not a big deal. But you use fingers to operate PPC, there is no possiblility to put two icons there.

Making tab minimalizing and tab/hold closing is a good idea. MS has said somewhere this method was implemented in earlier prototype, but they gave it up because most people won't bother to learn to use and it may attract bitter critism than current situation.

Wisbar is a good program. Because of the conflict between the latest Pocket PC plus battary bar and wisbar, my wisbar is not in startup folder any more. So far, I don't think it bother at all. I mapped one button to Today, once I need minimalize a program, just push the button to return to Today and run another one.

I don't have the slowing down problem either. My PPC automatically run backup at midnight and reset it after backup.

[huangzhinong]

ActiveSync is the real pain in PPC, we should concentrate on AS complaint. I know some people may never have AS problem at all. One of my friend who purchased h1945 for half year and still didn't install AS at all.

[gorkon280]

As of late, I have not found task closing/switching apps that handlethings without making other things diffcult. The current Wisbar beta covered up my connection icons and while I was able to drop a button on the bar to activate and shut off the icon, I could not see the status of the connection. I then tried Magic button again and I was soft resetting constantly with this app. Why was I doing this? Because for some odd reason it was the only reason I could get the Today screen back. Tapping on Start/today would not even do it. They need to fix this.....now. In a few years, they will have more screen real estate on about 90 percent of the devices out there....they will have enough room for a taskbar.

[Mobile_Bear]

I've personally grown to really like the smart minimize functionalty. However I agree that the ICON used for this is stupid. It should be a minimize icon with a possible tap/hold to Quit function.

This, my friend, is the way to go.
It took me some time to get the right app to manage close/minimize funcionality.
This should be built-in.

[Kevin Daly]

Of course, it's perfectly possible to make an application closable (with an "OK" button), but this is Forbidden if we are to be all standards-compliant.
Since as far as I know Pocket PC does not support execution in place (can anyone get me the definitive story on this?), this is is crazy.

What would help even with the existing situation would be if Microsoft provided good, clear goodlines for handling activate/deactivate situations. This is particularly lacking for the Compact Framework.

[duncanhbrown]

To answer the question of the original user (how do I quickly and easily close an application and not just minimize it?), the answer is:

Soft Reset.

[alizhan]

I've never heard a good explaination on why the X button minimizes the applications instead of closing them. I mean why wasn't there simply a minimize button and a close button? Too confusing?
This was a perfect example of how reasonable thinking can lead to an unreasonable result:


Most users get confused between close and minimize, even in the desktop world. What they really want is one, simple, "Go Away" button. Since people are already visually familiar with the X button, let's use that as the Go Away button.
Most users expect their software to remember what they were doing just before they told it to Go Away most recently. The easiest and fastest way to do this is to keep the program running.
Most users expect their software to act like the telephone: call someone, discuss, hang up; call someone else, discuss, hang up. They don't multitask, or even know what the word means.
Most users find the notion of something running "in the background" to be confusing, somewhat scary, and more than a bit suspicious (after all, what's it doing back there?). So don't let on to the fact that the software is still running: make them "relaunch" it to get back into it, and don't offer a task switcher.
Despite our claims to the Palm camp, 240 pixels wide ain't much space. The less buttons, the better.
The memory manager is smart enough to stop programs when it needs to, and programs are supposed to save session information when closed by the OS, so we can just leave things running until we need the space.


This all sounded quite reasonable back before enough people were using the devices to illustrate the cognitive gaps. But by that time it had become "The Microsoft Way" and was to be defended at any cost to the user.

Another massively stupid design decision by Microsoft is the lack of a generic "Cancel" button in their dialogs. Again I have never heard a good explaination for that "feature" either.
This one was always a bit more glaringly wrong-headed to me, but the justification went something like this:


Most users expect software to act like pen on paper. That is, they expect any changes they make to persist, without having to explicitly apply them. So all we need is the Go Away button.
Most users think programs are like people, and can intuit what their intent was. Having to select between OK or Cancel (or, worse yet, OK and Close), will just confuse them, because the software should know to just do What They Want (aka the Right Thing).
Most users don't understand the difference between a dialog and a main window (in fact, many developers don't, either :roll:). So make them look as uniform as possible.
Since we already have a spot for the Go Away button, why not use that same location for the OK button?
Programs should be coded to realize when nothing on the form has changed. Since nothing has changed, it obviously doesn't require an apply, which obviates the need for separate OK and Cancel buttons.
Programs should be coded to discard or fix bogus input, as that is most likely What They Want.


Item 5, in particular, always struck me as obviously flawed. What about when I start to modify a form, and then decide not to apply it? Or I accidentally trigger a modification when I didn't want to? Or what about those Microsoft dialogs which require valid input before they'll Go Away (violating their own design guides, but details)? It's fairly easy to get into a dialog in WM where the only way out is to reset.

Now, the above may make the "target user" seem like an idiot, but I've seen plenty of non-idiots who treat their computers exactly this way. Power users, which most of us here almost certainly qualify as, often have trouble understanding just how mystical and confusing computers are to the average user.

Microsoft really was trying to simplify the UI. They failed miserably, but they had good intentions. FWIW, I've not seen it done any better on any other device. The old UNIX Apply/Close/Reset scheme was marginally better, but is largely forgotten in modern systems.

[jkendrick]

The minimize issue has always seemed to me to be one of an internal concept that ended up being defended at all costs. It sounds very good that the platform is designed for all your running apps to be instantly available when you want them and if memory gets scarce the OS intelligently releases less used apps and frees up for your new desired app.

But, there's been enough time now that users have harangued MS about this that it's obvious that MOST users want it changed. The fact that is hasn't changed is probably due to defending it internally, coupled with the size of the task for MS to change it. Personally, I don't see why it isn't user configurable so everybody would be happy.

Of course, we're never REALLY happy, are we? :)

[Kati Compton]

So, without changing their paradigm, Microsoft could add the "tap-n-hold X button opens a menu that lets you either minimize or close" to the existing "tap X button and it minimizes". They'd not be admitting failure, we'd get the functionality we want. It's still simple for the non-power users...

It can't be *that* hard.

[Jonathan1]

Huh,

Kati's post makes me think MS is to the close button as Apple is to the two button mouse. :roll:

[klinux]

With all the smart people I know working at Microsoft, why are they coming up with these pig-headed decisions? Practically anything they named "Smart (insert anything here)" is not smart.

At the risk of fanning Mac zealots that Redmond is a big copier, MS need to read up on human interface guidelines (like here http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGDialogs/chapter_9_section_2.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000962/CJECBHJE and here http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/).

[karlth]

Would a solution be to, as some have mentioned, implement a tap-hold on the X button as Close?

I have developed for the Pocket PC & desktop replacement hooks for Windows so I could take a look at it - if of course it hasn't already been done.

So would there be an interest for a freeware hack like that?

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, I'm curious as to which PPC she has.

iMate 2 - I don't think there's anything in ROM as a task killer/switcher.

If nothing else I'm sure you still have enough pull to comp her a copy of PocketPlus ;)

Due to concerns about alarm triggering issues, I don't want to reccomend that solution. I don't have Pocket Plus installed on my Pocket PCs any longer.

[Jason Dunn]

I've never heard a good explaination on why the X button minimizes the applications instead of closing them. I mean why wasn't there simply a minimize button and a close button? Too confusing?

Microsoft was trying to be as fast as Palm units, and with 1st generation Pocket PCs the only way to do that is to have the apps already running in the background to shave off the 1-2 seconds the app would take to start. They were short-sighted and committed to a design paradigm that is completely unnecessary today with the powerful Pocket PCs that we have.

[Kati Compton]

Microsoft was trying to be as fast as Palm units, and with 1st generation Pocket PCs the only way to do that is to have the apps already running in the background to shave off the 1-2 seconds the app would take to start. They were short-sighted and committed to a design paradigm that is completely unnecessary today with the powerful Pocket PCs that we have.
Yeah - I think the suggestion I made above (which others have made as well) would be a good way to solve this problem because they could keep their "paradigm" for the users that aren't interested enough to read the manual or log onto a forum like this, but let the users that run more STUFF quit programs easily as needed.

Interestingly enough, I think that the "smart minimize" thing is so broken that the statement of "completely unnecessary today with the powerful PocketPCs that we have" isn't quite right. Given that the programs continue to *run* in the background, the less powerful the PPC, the less well it would work. ;)

[rmasinag]

So would there be an interest for a freeware hack like that?

Yes, Yes Please! :angel:


Personally, I only use smart minimize for pocket word and notes. Other than that, my wisbar is always on.

[Jason Dunn]

]Maybe I'm missing something here but surely the correct way to terminate the RDP session is to log off the remote session. Otherwise you'll be leaving open the connection at the remote end which is just as bad as having the Pocket PC client open.

Quite possibly, yes. Unfortunately in the scenario I described that wasn't possible - the PC got into a strange state and we had to disconnect. If RDP on the Pocket PC works anything like RDP on the desktop PC, you can shut down without logging off and the computer will react as it should.

[Jason Dunn]

So, without changing their paradigm, Microsoft could add the "tap-n-hold X button opens a menu that lets you either minimize or close" to the existing "tap X button and it minimizes". They'd not be admitting failure, we'd get the functionality we want. It's still simple for the non-power users...It can't be *that* hard.

Yes, I think this is the solution. In order to maintain the desktop paradigm that has been built over over the past two decades or so, Microsoft should change the icon to a downward facing chevron, and upon a tap and hold it would offer an option to exit. Or perhaps to really keep the desktop paradigm they should have an "X" that really closes and a downward chevron that minimizes. Gee, just like the desktop world - what a unique idea!!

I think it's purely a matter of ego now - there are a couple of people at Microsoft who don't want to see this happen and they're in positions of enough power that they can overrule anyone who thinks differently.

[Jason Dunn]

Interestingly enough, I think that the "smart minimize" thing is so broken that the statement of "completely unnecessary today with the powerful PocketPCs that we have" isn't quite right. Given that the programs continue to *run* in the background, the less powerful the PPC, the less well it would work. ;)

I don't follow what you're saying. I was saying that with 900 or so contacts, the X30 can start up contacts in less than one second. To me, that's instant. There's no longer any need to keep it running in the background in order to achieve speed parity with Palm. Apps can be opened so fast now that we should have the option to exit from them if we want to.

[klinux]

Microsoft was ... short-sighted and committed to a design paradigm that is completely unnecessary today with the powerful Pocket PCs that we have.

Exactly. Anyone can make a short-sighted decision; no problem with that. Why oh why are they continuing that, however?! Is that someone's (Gates/Ballmer/etc's) pet project? :evil:

[Jonathan1]

I don't follow what you're saying. I was saying that with 900 or so contacts, the X30 can start up contacts in less than one second. To me, that's instant. There's no longer any need to keep it running in the background in order to achieve speed parity with Palm. Apps can be opened so fast now that we should have the option to exit from them if we want to.

I think what she's saying is it’s like a bell curve. On one end the slow Pocket PC's its a necessity to close apps because its slows down the system and on the other end the current gen of Pocket PC's are so fast they don't need to have apps left open.

[Jonathan1]

Exactly. Anyone can make a short-sighted decision; no problem with that. Why oh why are they continuing that, however?! Is that someone's (Gates/Ballmer/etc's) pet project? :evil:

Or is there simply no motivation to do it. How many app changers are out there? I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

[twalk]

I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

[Sven Johannsen]

Or is there simply no motivation to do it. How many app changers are out there? I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

And so there are. To me sometimes is the issue that most are bundled with all manner of other things I don't want. and take up RAM for storage and execution since most need to run all the time. Now if someone did a nice program closer/switcher that did a good job of just that.... Say it works a bit like Pocket Plus where I can choose what my X does for tap, and tap and hold. One of the features I'd like is a multiple select on the list of running apps, so I can pick and choose what to close and what to leave running. Might be nice to have a few configurable lines on the dropdown for like Today, Reset, Power Off, maybe a special app. Pocket Plus does some of that.

Now what would you pay for that? $1, $5, $10 what? for a task switcher, that should be free ? What?

[Sven Johannsen]

I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

You're not serious? You think legions of folks would forsake desktops and laptops and Office so they could do 100 page reports, gigabit databases and multiple sheet spreadsheets on a 2x3 inch screen? I know I've been lamenting the fact that I can't produce 11x17 Visio drawings on my 4155.

If they even made the viewing experience as good as Documents to Go it would help the sales of PPCs and solidify the companionship between MS PPCs and Office based PCs.

[dlangton]

One of the features I'd like is a multiple select on the list of running apps, so I can pick and choose what to close and what to leave running. Might be nice to have a few configurable lines on the dropdown for like Today, Reset, Power Off, maybe a special app. Pocket Plus does some of that.


Magic Button (free) from TranCreative or the DinarSoft combination of HandySwitcher|HandyMenu|HandyLauncher (not so free) does pretty much all the things you're looking for. I switched from PocketPlus for Magic Button. I use the DinarSoft apps for even more functionality.

What's really funny is that Microsoft is getting even farther away from a close button. It used to be that most software had an option to exit the program. Now, even Conduits is toeing the line and removing the exit menu option, just in order to follow MS specs.

[webagogue]

I've never heard a good explaination on why the X button minimizes the applications instead of closing them.

Actually for a number of the 'normal' users I deal with, it doesn't make much difference to them. Most were barely aware that programs were running in the background. They turned on their devices change through the apps they want to use and turn it off. The average user doesn't even see any particular performance hit when working with a half a dozen stock apps open. I often help folks with issues and find at least that many apps running and generally that is not the problem.

Agreed. I used to be pretty adamant about being able to close my programs, but better hardware made it almost a non-issue. Also, as I started to load larger and larger applications, the minimize made more sense than close. A minimized application returns to a ready state much faster than one that has to start cold. This is even more evident for applications stored on (cheap?) removeable media. I install all but my most critical (or stubborn) applications on my SD card.

Actually, I've noticed fewer hangups/lockups since I stopped using third-party application closers.

[webagogue]

I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

You're not serious? You think legions of folks would forsake desktops and laptops and Office so they could do 100 page reports, gigabit databases...

At first I was going to post something like "Gig-sized Access DBs? Yeah, right!" But then I noticed you cleverly wrote "gigabit" which is only 125MB (correction, anyone?). :D

(I agree with the spirit of your response, however)

[Kati Compton]

I don't follow what you're saying. I was saying that with 900 or so contacts, the X30 can start up contacts in less than one second. To me, that's instant. There's no longer any need to keep it running in the background in order to achieve speed parity with Palm. Apps can be opened so fast now that we should have the option to exit from them if we want to.

I think what she's saying is it’s like a bell curve. On one end the slow Pocket PC's its a necessity to close apps because its slows down the system and on the other end the current gen of Pocket PC's are so fast they don't need to have apps left open.
Yes. So with a slow device, you may not want to exit a program because it takes so long to restart it. But on the other hand, with a slow device, you need to be able to close unneeded programs to get the performance you need.

[WillyG]

...it's purely a matter of ego now - there are a couple of people at Microsoft who don't want to see this happen and they're in positions of enough power that they can overrule anyone who thinks differently.

Jason:
Interesting. Is this somthing you believe, or somthing you know? (i dont expect you to give an honest answer :wink:)
Either way, if this is anyway near the truth, its just sad and unbelievable. I hope its not so.

[The PocketTV Team]

I've personally grown to really like the smart minimize functionalty. However I agree that the ICON used for this is stupid. It should be a minimize icon with a possible tap/hold to Quit function.
I personally think that's an excellent idea.

And even better would be a way, in the Settings, to decide if tapping (X) should minimize or "exit" applications, and regardless of the default tapping behavior, tap-and-hold would give the choice.

I will submit this idea to the Microsoft people, maybe it will make its way into "Magneto"...

[The PocketTV Team]

So, without changing their paradigm, Microsoft could add the "tap-n-hold X button opens a menu that lets you either minimize or close" to the existing "tap X button and it minimizes". They'd not be admitting failure, we'd get the functionality we want. It's still simple for the non-power users...
It can't be *that* hard.
Personally I think the "Minimize" should be renamed "Hide" (less confusing, and closer to reality, as the application merely gets hidden, not minimized). And "Close" should be "Exit", to prevent confusion with merely closing a window, compared to exiting the application.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Now, even Conduits is toeing the line and removing the exit menu option, just in order to follow MS specs.

We have heard that MSFT has relaxed their requirements a lot regarding the fact that apps should not have an Exit command in order to be "certified".

I'm not really talking about "logo-certification", but for example, in the past, applications had to comply with the "No Exit in the Menu" in order to be bundled in a Pocket PC ROM by an OEM.

Apparently that's not true anymore. We know that, because PocketTV will be bundled in some upcoming Pocket PC's, and we have always had an Exit command in our Pocket PC menu.

On the Smartphone, we took Exit off the menu (menus on Smartphones are smaller and cannot has as many items as on Pocket PC). But our Exit command can be mapped on a Smartphone key (by default it's on "*").

[jlp]

I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

I highly doubt people will stop buying desktop Office and buy PPCs 8O to write their day to day docs on a PPC :roll:

Update: oops I wrote this before coming to Sven's and webagogue's comments just on higher above. Great minds think alike :D

[jlp]

If nothing else I'm sure you still have enough pull to comp her a copy of PocketPlus ;)

Due to concerns about alarm triggering issues, I don't want to reccomend that solution. I don't have Pocket Plus installed on my Pocket PCs any longer.

8O 8O

Where can I find more specific info on such issues? I was just about to install PPlus :(

I did some search but results were 32 pages long of different threads :evil: :evil:

[dmanvan12]

iPAQ, at least have the iTask app which when linked to one of the buttons means that you can press the button, hold the app then click close it or close all.... This saves heaps of time and is also very handy for quickly switching between app's

[Jason Dunn]

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

We asked them that question at the last MVP Summit and they denied it completely. And to be honest, I don't really believe it either - the number of people who would use a Pocket PC + keyboard + Super Pocket Word *instead* of buying Office is very, very small.

I know that we haven't seen any signifncant improvements in Pocket Word or Pocket Excel in years, but maybe the next OS will be better. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Yes. So with a slow device, you may not want to exit a program because it takes so long to restart it. But on the other hand, with a slow device, you need to be able to close unneeded programs to get the performance you need.

Hmm. I don't know if I agree with that - even on a low-end device like the iPAQ 1930 you have a surprisingly powerful Samsung processor more or less as fast as a 400 mhz 1st gen Xscale PXA250. The scenario I was talking about was 1st gen Pocket PCs with MIPS and SH3 processors. The speed of the 206 mhz StrongARM processor took everyone by surprise, and in that one device the need to close apps that you had with the SH3 was negated. So right out of the gate, there was no need to "Smart minimize" apps to be as fast as Palm. IMO. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

Interesting. Is this somthing you believe, or somthing you know? (i dont expect you to give an honest answer :wink:)

Just something I believe based on six years of interaction with the people at Microsoft (a few stories I've heard along the way have reinforced my belief). Don't get me wrong, they're all great people who are passionate about the work they do, but on a few issues they seem to be amazingly stubborn and reluctant to admit they might have been wrong.

Ever wondered why Pocket PCs have the ability to format a memory card when you insert a non-formatted card, yet there's no way to manually trigger a format? That's because someone high up on the development team thought it was "too dangerous" to give people a format tool on the device in case they nuke their storage card. So they removed the UI to access that functionality, yet it's still there... :?

[Jason Dunn]

iPAQ, at least have the iTask app which when linked to one of the buttons means that you can press the button, hold the app then click close it or close all.... This saves heaps of time and is also very handy for quickly switching between app's

Right - all the major OEMs have something bundled in this regard (not sure about Toshiba though). So that begs the question, why isn't Microsoft providing a solution here? Why force the OEMs into bundling a customized solution that is different from device to device, effectively breaking the UI even more? Imagine if Dell, HP, Toshiba, Fujitsu, and every other computer company all had different ways of closing applications and switching between them. Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue as people had to re-learn how to kill/switch tasks whenever they used a different brand of computer?

That's *exactly* what Microsoft has done with the Pocket PC.

[c38b2]

Toshibas have a "Home" app that, in one tab, lists the currently running programs and allows you to exit one or all of them. Since it's mapped to a button by default and includes a program launching screen it's far handier than going Start->Settings->Whatever...

[jweisz]

Since Mickeysoft doesn't seem to want to fix the problem, how about the application developers doing it? The application I'm involved with has an Exit command in its File menu for just that reason.

I also use Pocket Plus which allows me to tap to minimize and hold to close.

[unxmully]

Huh,

Kati's post makes me think MS is to the close button as Apple is to the two button mouse. :roll:

Except that Mac's have supported multi-button mice for years.

[Jonathan1]

Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue as people had to re-learn how to kill/switch tasks whenever they used a different brand of computer?

That's *exactly* what Microsoft has done with the Pocket PC.


Or the headaches for us IT folk who try and train people on these devices. OK this is how you do it on the iPod. This is how you do it on the X30...this is how. From a training perspective its also a nightmare.

Microsoft needs to end this debate once and for all.

Hey does anyone know if MS is still requiring that any software product that wants the "designed for Windows Mobile logo" that they can NOT have an inprogram exit method? I know I read something to that effect a few years back. I hope to god they got rid of that stupid clause.

[rjtrede]

When I got my Dell Axim (original 64 mb model), it came with a nice little program called 'Switcher Bar'... I have to start that progam manually from the Settings/System screen (can not figure out a way to make it auto-start)...

But once it is running, I can click that program's icon and choose between 'Close All Programs' or 'Close Current Program'... It's not an 'X' button... but it does the job.

[Kati Compton]

The speed of the 206 mhz StrongARM processor took everyone by surprise, and in that one device the need to close apps that you had with the SH3 was negated. So right out of the gate, there was no need to "Smart minimize" apps to be as fast as Palm. IMO. ;-)
Perhaps, but even on my 400MHz XScale, I have WISBar Advance set to smart minimize Pocket Informant, but close other apps.

The point I was trying to make, and I think we're talking somewhat in parallel here, is that having ONLY smart minimize was a bad idea all along, not just now with the faster devices. But also, I think going to JUST a "close" button wouldn't be the right answer either.

[Janak Parekh]

Kati's post makes me think MS is to the close button as Apple is to the two button mouse. :roll:
Except that Mac's have supported multi-button mice for years.
That's the point. You can get a third-party task switcher to solve the problem, but it's not bundled/integrated with the product.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Perhaps, but even on my 400MHz XScale, I have WISBar Advance set to smart minimize Pocket Informant, but close other apps.
Indeed, PI is one of only two programs I minimize (the other is my wireless sync setup, which must be minimized to be functional). But I have to say, the most recent versions of PI might be fast enough with the newest units to not need minimizing at all.

The point I was trying to make, and I think we're talking somewhat in parallel here, is that having ONLY smart minimize was a bad idea all along, not just now with the faster devices.
The perception I get from MS is that on a Pocket PC, they're trying to minimize UI complexity, and giving such a choice would be "complex". Instead, if the OS handles closing "as necessary", you shouldn't have to worry about it. (That would be true if it worked, but it doesn't even for built-in apps as Jason's rant implied in the first place.)

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

But also, I think going to JUST a "close" button wouldn't be the right answer either.

I agree - there are many instances when you want something to keep running in the background. I certainly wasn't advocating a uni-tasking approach a la Palm. ;-)

[huangzhinong]

When I got my Dell Axim (original 64 mb model), it came with a nice little program called 'Switcher Bar'... I have to start that progam manually from the Settings/System screen (can not figure out a way to make it auto-start)...

But once it is running, I can click that program's icon and choose between 'Close All Programs' or 'Close Current Program'... It's not an 'X' button... but it does the job.

I had a x5 before and it starts automatically after each reset. You can make a shortcut in /startup folder.

[Kati Compton]

When I got my Dell Axim (original 64 mb model), it came with a nice little program called 'Switcher Bar'... I have to start that progam manually from the Settings/System screen (can not figure out a way to make it auto-start)...

But once it is running, I can click that program's icon and choose between 'Close All Programs' or 'Close Current Program'... It's not an 'X' button... but it does the job.

I had a x5 before and it starts automatically after each reset. You can make a shortcut in /startup folder.
Yeah - I wanted that functionality at the X location, so I switched (no pun intended) from the Dell Switcher Bar to WISBar Advance.

[unxmully]

Kati's post makes me think MS is to the close button as Apple is to the two button mouse. :roll:
Except that Mac's have supported multi-button mice for years.
That's the point. You can get a third-party task switcher to solve the problem, but it's not bundled/integrated with the product.

--janak

Hmmm, not quite. My iBook didn't have a mouse with but the OS supported single or multi-button mice equally well, whichever I bought.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here? Why did you need to take an off topic dig at Apple when discussing some odd Microsoft intransigence?

Andy

[Jason Dunn]

Hmmm, not quite. My iBook didn't have a mouse with but the OS supported single or multi-button mice equally well, whichever I bought. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here? Why did you need to take an off topic dig at Apple when discussing some odd Microsoft intransigence?

No, you're missing the point because you're being hyper-sensitive like so many other Mac users. The point of comparison is this: two-button mice are clearly more functional than single-button mice. The OS supports them, there's no technical reason why Apple couldn't offer a two-button mouse...except the hubris of Steve Jobs and Apple in general. Because THEY didn't invent it, they refuse to offer it to their customers, even though it's something many people would want (many Mac users buy two button mice, right?).

That the comparison to the Microsoft issue: something that people want that isn't being offered because because of stubbornness.

[Sven Johannsen]

I toss this into the same realm as to why aren't there updated GOOD versions of Word and Excel available for the Pocket PC?!?

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

You're not serious? You think legions of folks would forsake desktops and laptops and Office so they could do 100 page reports, gigabit databases...

At first I was going to post something like "Gig-sized Access DBs? Yeah, right!" But then I noticed you cleverly wrote "gigabit" which is only 125MB (correction, anyone?). :D

(I agree with the spirit of your response, however)

Actually I did mean Byte. We have a 900K Access DB here that about 5 folks access daily. The limit to an Access DB is 2G, and the one we have does work just fine. The sad thing is when we need to deliver the data to someone else, it Zips down to 100K. Gosh there is a lot of bloat in an Access file.

[jlp]

Folks,

what about this utility Tim Allen is using in his Repligo review and that shows on all the PPC screenshots here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29676&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)?!

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/allen-jul04-repligo-teaser.gif

Anybody knows this utility? It looks like it does both close and minimize in the area reserved for the regular (OS) close X button.

For simple needs like the one Jason is talking about, if this is what it looks like it would be perfect, I think.

.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Hey does anyone know if MS is still requiring that any software product that wants the "designed for Windows Mobile logo" that they can NOT have an inprogram exit method?

The latest MSFT Mobile logo certification specifications are there:

Pocket PC:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/a/5/1a572c42-10b5-469d-9acb-cedd2e634985/designed%20for%20ppc_handbook.pdf

Smartphone:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/a/5/1a572c42-10b5-469d-9acb-cedd2e634985/Designed%20for%20SP_Handbook.pdf

In both of those spec, dated August 2003, they have removed the requirement about not exposing a method for exiting the applications.

So now it's officially OK to have an Exit command in your menu, and get logo certified.

They also removed the requirement to support gray-scale and 8-bit (256-color) devices, since now all devices are full-color (at least 16-bit RGB).

[Jeff Rutledge]

Anybody knows this utility? It looks like it does both close and minimize in the area reserved for the regular (OS) close X button.

It's part of Battery Pack from OmegaOne (http://www.omegaone.com).

[Rob Alexander]

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

We asked them that question at the last MVP Summit and they denied it completely. And to be honest, I don't really believe it either - the number of people who would use a Pocket PC + keyboard + Super Pocket Word *instead* of buying Office is very, very small.

I know that we haven't seen any signifncant improvements in Pocket Word or Pocket Excel in years, but maybe the next OS will be better. ;-)

The competition theory really doesn't make sense. As others have said, there's no way that people are going to abandon their desktops to PPCs just because they have a decent word processor. If they were, then TextMaker would already have allowed people to do that... and people haven't abandoned their desktops, have they?

It seems much more likely to me that it's just an issue of priorities. They would get very little marketing milage out of saying 'improved Pocket Word and Excel'. Even though enthusiasts would welcome it, the majority of those looking to buy PPCs just need to see that there is a Pocket Word and Excel. Now compare that to saying 'now supports VGA' or 'now supports landscape' or 'now has a prettier look'... all things that are more likely to motivate new buyers. Someday, they may get around to improving Pocket Office, but I imagine if they do, it won't be because we want it, but because someone influential in the team decides to make it a pet project.

[jlp]

They would get very little marketing milage out of saying 'improved Pocket Word and Excel'. Even though enthusiasts would welcome it, the majority of those looking to buy PPCs just need to see that there is a Pocket Word and Excel. Now compare that to saying 'now supports VGA' or 'now supports landscape' or 'now has a prettier look'... all things that are more likely to motivate new buyers. Someday, they may get around to improving Pocket Office, but I imagine if they do, it won't be because we want it, but because someone influential in the team decides to make it a pet project.

Yes, that's right: The sad fact is that Palm1 devices handle Microsoft documents MUCH better than Microsoft's own offerings. That's the aweful part.

So people who need to do this had no other choice than P1 until VERY recently. And for most road warriors docs like Word, XL and PPT you had to 1) do some research on the net, 2) find solutions from 3 different vendors (2 now)and 3) pay an extra $100 approximatly. While PalmOS solutions are bundled with many devices since a couple of years now; all the while neither MS nor any PPC vendor have bothered seeing the market.

[twalk]

This one is simple. They're afraid of creating competition between Pocket Office and the full MS Office. (The same problem that killed IBM w/ PCs and mainframes.)

We asked them that question at the last MVP Summit and they denied it completely. And to be honest, I don't really believe it either - the number of people who would use a Pocket PC + keyboard + Super Pocket Word *instead* of buying Office is very, very small.

I know that we haven't seen any signifncant improvements in Pocket Word or Pocket Excel in years, but maybe the next OS will be better. ;-)


Jason, no disrespect intended, but if MS makes a negative decision about PPC, you'd likely be the last to be told. You'll take this informantion and then publish it. At every company I've worked at, releasing negative product information, especially to the press, was a terminating offense. I seriously doubt that MS is any different.

Are you really sure that many people wouldn't use a PPC instead? It's cheaper, more portable, and with a docking station (w/ usb master and dvi) it would be able to do the wp & internet stuff most people want just fine. That accounts for 50%+ of computer users that could be handled just fine with several small improvements to current devices.

If PPC steals even 1% of the PC market (stolen from the laptop share), that means $150M+ of pure profit lost to MS. If I was a manager at MS, there is NO way that I take any chances here.

To me, this all looks like history repeating itself. Mainframes to desktops to laptops to PDAs/cellphones. You can now get at 600Mhz+ processor, gigs of storage, and a 640x480 screen. At what point do PDAs switch from "toys" to PC replacements? Give me better programs, 2 usb master ports, and a dvi connector, and I could do all but my programming work on a high-end PPC. Even database access is easy because you store databases on a server, and many PPCs now have WiFi, and in 2 years most will have cell capability. Current PPCs could do that just fine if MS would just polish things up. It wouldn't take much to do it, but if MS won't do it, then I've got no doubt that PS and Symbian will.

MS is filled with really smart people, and they know that the best way to destroy a product is to undercut it from below with a product that improves significantly over time, especially if the customer needs are growing slowly. (It's called a disruptive technology.)

[Janak Parekh]

Jason, no disrespect intended, but if MS makes a negative decision about PPC, you'd likely be the last to be told.
Actually, that's not necessarily true. MS tells MVPs a lot about upcoming products -- specifically to get feedback. Unfortunately, we're under NDA so we can't say any specifics... but that's what enables them to tell us. I can say that we've all given them vociferous feedback about certain decisions. ;)

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, no disrespect intended, but if MS makes a negative decision about PPC, you'd likely be the last to be told. You'll take this informantion and then publish it.

Nope. As an MVP I'm under NDA and cannot publish anything unless Microsoft tells me it's public information. As an MVP I know far more than what I publish here.

Are you really sure that many people wouldn't use a PPC instead? It's cheaper, more portable, and with a docking station (w/ usb master and dvi) it would be able to do the wp & internet stuff most people want just fine.

DVI? You're going to crank out a whopping VGA signal and work on a desktop computer with that? And what are you going to plug into the USB master port? Take a look around at how many ARM-based USB product drivers there are for a reality-check as to how successful it's been so far. The harsh truth is that there just aren't enough PDA users to make it worthwhile for anyone to write ARM-based drivers. Mass storage and maybe a mouse and keyboard is about all you can do. Printers? No. Scanners? No. DVD burner? No.

Look no offense intended, but current Pocket PCs would need significant improvements in order to do what you're asking for. We're talking 2-3 generations more before they'd be what I'd consider useful for a desktop replacement: 1024 x 768 resolution, real video cards capable of decent 2D pixel pushing quality, CPUs fast enough to keep up with keyboard input + multitasking, stability of a desktop OS, and a host of other things.

Don't get me wrong - the idea of giving someone a $500 Pocket PC with a few accessories and having it be their only computer really gets me excited, but it's just not going to happen for a long time, if at all, and it's not because of some tin-hat conspiracy to keep desktops in business. If the OEMs felt there was serious money to be made here, they'd be pushing this, but there isn't so they're not. HP was showing a concept device where a Pocket PC was connected to a keyboard + mouse + monitor, so they're thinking about this, but it's quite a few years in the future before it's realistic.

[jlp]

You're absolutely right Jason.

I too feel (as I and other have said above) that Pocket PCs will never replace a desktop.

But pocket PCs will ;)

Yeah I know I come back to this subject again and again. :roll:

That's just because I believe in this new awesome paradigm of having my "desktop-in-my-pocket" kind of use.

OQO may have taken time to come to market (they are doing real life testing with 40 top US companies, so it's on the market, tho not yet mass market :wink:), the measure of its intrinsic success will largely depend on its characteristics/capabilities or rather its user requirements rather than based on the concept itself.

But the paradigm shift has begun and all those top companies working on such type of devices (Sony, IBM, NEC, Toshiba, Intel, etc.) are a concrete proof it is so.

As much as I believe Pocket PCs won't replace a desktop except for some rare and daring individuals, I believe Ultra(mini) PCs like the OQO will, for a large number of road warriors and in large specific fields like health, repair, utilities, etc.

:nonono:

Now closer to topic, I believe that a utility program like the one I was referring to above that offers both minimize and close functions visually and in the same screen area as the OS close button is THE solution needed.

As this is part of a complete package I'm told, is there a similar program that does just that? that would be the answer to this specific problem... :D

[Kati Compton]

As this is part of a complete package I'm told, is there a similar program that does just that? that would be the answer to this specific problem... :D
Yes and no. It needs to be PART of the OS, not an add-on. Otherwise, new PPC users who haven't heard of sites like PPCT won't realize the program is out there, and will still be stuck. And support personnel shouldn't have to say "well, you have to install *this* program, and then you can do what you want", when it's such a *basic* thing that the OS should support anyway.

[twalk]

Nope. As an MVP I'm under NDA and cannot publish anything unless Microsoft tells me it's public information. As an MVP I know far more than what I publish here.

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs. Each time info is released, it increases the chance for it to leak to the public.

DVI? You're going to crank out a whopping VGA signal and work on a desktop computer with that?

Why not? OQO, Sony Uxx, and Flipstart can, and they are only a little bigger than a PPC. Stick the DVI connector on a docking station and it's even easier to add.

And what are you going to plug into the USB master port? Take a look around at how many ARM-based USB product drivers there are for a reality-check as to how successful it's been so far. The harsh truth is that there just aren't enough PDA users to make it worthwhile for anyone to write ARM-based drivers. Mass storage and maybe a mouse and keyboard is about all you can do. Printers? No. Scanners? No. DVD burner? No.

If there isn't enough PDA users, then there aren't enough Mac users. They're roughly the same sales rate.

USB drivers are not that hard to write. Heck, there are templates that do most of the work for you for the common devices. The real reason there aren't USB drivers is that there isn't any devices that have USB master ports. (Actually I've heard of one, but just one.)

MS already has all the source to all the usb drivers that would be needed. They just need usb master ports on the devices and a few days to port the code. This is a solved problem, but MS just doesn't want to do it.

Look no offense intended, but current Pocket PCs would need significant improvements in order to do what you're asking for. We're talking 2-3 generations more before they'd be what I'd consider useful for a desktop replacement: 1024 x 768 resolution, real video cards capable of decent 2D pixel pushing quality, CPUs fast enough to keep up with keyboard input + multitasking, stability of a desktop OS, and a host of other things.

I don't know why you think that this is so complex. These are all old and already solved problems. Fast enough cpu for KB input + multitasking? Paaa-lease. A 400Mhz PPC can easily do full screen video + sound, a KB is nothing. 1024x768 resolution? Those chipsets have been around for nearly 15 years, with very low power/small size versions for 5+ years. OS stability? XP is *much* more complex, but more stable. Sounds like a lack of resources & QA. Pocket Office? MS has all the source from previous versions of Office to work from and people with decades of experience writing that type of software.

Don't get me wrong - the idea of giving someone a $500 Pocket PC with a few accessories and having it be their only computer really gets me excited, but it's just not going to happen for a long time, if at all, and it's not because of some tin-hat conspiracy to keep desktops in business. If the OEMs felt there was serious money to be made here, they'd be pushing this, but there isn't so they're not. HP was showing a concept device where a Pocket PC was connected to a keyboard + mouse + monitor, so they're thinking about this, but it's quite a few years in the future before it's realistic.

PDAs use old technology. There are only 2 reasons for why they don't have this technology out now. 1) They don't think that it will sell, in which case it will likely be never for this to come out on PPC. 2) They don't want any competition to laptops. HP & Dell don't want any competition there, because laptops have much greater profit margins. MS doesn't want any competition there, because PPC OS + Pocket Office is much, much less in cost than XP + Office.

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it. What I see is a determination to keep PPC as an attachment to a PC, and not as a possible replacement.

[Jason Dunn]

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs.

When I'm at an MVP event, I'm an MVP, not a guy with a Pocket PC site. MVPs respect their NDAs and as such are trusted with a great deal of information. even the bad news. I won't explain this again. Either call me a liar or let it go.

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it.

I'm not saying it's technically impossible, I'm saying that market forces existing today make it completely unlikely and unrealistic. The costs of a Pocket PC like you're describing would be cost prohibitive - it's the same story as the people who want the Pocket PC with a 1 Ghz processor (Intel has them), 256 MB of RAM, two SD slots, one CF slot, 2000 mAH battery, 4" VGA screen, etc. Sure, it's possible. But who will buy a $1000 Pocket PC? In the same way, the "Pocket PC with a cradle replacing a desktop computer" scenario is a niche one, making the cost of the bundle cost prohibitive.

It's a pie in the sky scenario that has no basis in reality. I dearly WISH it would happen, but I've been in thus industry too long to believe it will happen anytime soon. As I said earlier, several years from now we might see it happen, but not now, and not because of some conspiracy to keep the Pocket PC down, which is what started this original thread.

No more posts from me on this subject, so enjoy having the last word. :wink:

[twalk]

Well, like I said, I've never worked at a place that released negative info ahead of time, even to those who've signed NDAs. And with MS being as paranoid as they are... I personally can't think of a positive business case for why they would release negative info to press NDAs.

When I'm at an MVP event, I'm an MVP, not a guy with a Pocket PC site. MVPs respect their NDAs and as such are trusted with a great deal of information. even the bad news. I won't explain this again. Either call me a liar or let it go.

At no point did I call you a liar, or imply it. I've just seen too many times where the people in a group get real excited by new stuff they are working on, announce it to all their partners, and then have upper management make major changes, or even kill the entire project. They never knew what hit them. I've seen that happen *way* too often.

I'm not saying that you're a liar, but I am questioning your idea that MS shares all the negative information about their products. I've never actually seen a company do that before, because it can potentially have a direct negative impact on sales. (More to the point, even though you're a MVP, *why* should they share all the negative info with you? I can't even image a company that shares all it's info.)

You're basically looking at what is out there right now, and saying "you can't do that". I'm basically saying that this is easily possible if (and only if) all the players are committed to do it.

I'm not saying it's technically impossible, I'm saying that market forces existing today make it completely unlikely and unrealistic. The costs of a Pocket PC like you're describing would be cost prohibitive - it's the same story as the people who want the Pocket PC with a 1 Ghz processor (Intel has them), 256 MB of RAM, two SD slots, one CF slot, 2000 mAH battery, 4" VGA screen, etc. Sure, it's possible. But who will buy a $1000 Pocket PC? In the same way, the "Pocket PC with a cradle replacing a desktop computer" scenario is a niche one, making the cost of the bundle cost prohibitive.

It's a pie in the sky scenario that has no basis in reality. I dearly WISH it would happen, but I've been in thus industry too long to believe it will happen anytime soon. As I said earlier, several years from now we might see it happen, but not now, and not because of some conspiracy to keep the Pocket PC down, which is what started this original thread.

No more posts from me on this subject, so enjoy having the last word. :wink:

Contrary to what you might think, I'm not a troll. I really have wasted too much time on this thread, and will also drop it here.

You really do have an inflated idea about how much this would all cost. All I asked for was a couple usb master ports and a dvi output for hardware. That would add something like $20 to the parts cost. Maybe have it on a docking station. Laptop docking stations are very poor sellers, but yet usually cost &lt;$200 for a much more powerful dock. Even if you add all the parts to the "super PPC" you list out above, you're still talking only &lt;$200 more in parts, with no OS changes needed. This isn't a design/part cost issue, but a marketing issue.

I also think that you (and many other posters here) don't realize how paranoid MS is to any potential threat to Windows and Office. They've killed many a company for being a smaller threat than PPC is. PDAs fit the classical definition of a disruptive technology. If you don't know what that is, read "The Innovator's Dilemma", which is the classical work on the subject. MS can't take any chances here. Even small losses in marketshare for XP+Office add up to hundreds of millions of dollars.