PPCW Tutorial On Windows Mobile Timezone Handling

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.ppcw.net/?itemid=1976' target='_blank'>http://www.ppcw.net/?itemid=1976</a><br /><br /></div><i>"The Time Zone feature of Outlook and Pocket Outlook is probably the most misunderstood concept implemented in any modern computing device. Some have managed to break it and bring it down to the level of the lowly paper based planner while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20040707-Timezones.jpg" /><br /><br />I think Carlo was inspired by <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29489">Kati's post and the ensuing debate</a>. ;) Whether or not you agree with it, you may find Carlo's article useful in minimizing problems when you travel with your Pocket PC and/or desktop.

[Sven Johannsen]

"...while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."

I take a little umbrage at the implication that if you grasped the concept, you would like it. I fully understand the concept, what it does, and why it does it. I still don't like it, nor does it work for me without my having to modify my methodology and my experience to make use of this 'feature'.

I agree that it is not broken, in that it does exactly what it was designed to do, with the possible exception of what it does to all day events with multiple time shifts.

So there :wink:

[Brad Adrian]

It's a well-written and thorough description of the entire time zone topic. I'd like to add, though, that the application that helps me a lot is CityTime, from Codecity.net. Among its features, it adds a menu item to the Calendar application that allows you to specify the city/time zone for an appointment. That way, if my boss says "make an appointment for noon in Japan," I can do it without messing with the visiting time zone and such.

Another application that adds this capability is Trip Tracker from Two Peaks software.

[daS]

"...while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."

I take a little umbrage at the implication that if you grasped the concept, you would like it. I fully understand the concept, what it does, and why it does it. I still don't like it, nor does it work for me without my having to modify my methodology and my experience to make use of this 'feature'.

I agree that it is not broken, in that it does exactly what it was designed to do, with the possible exception of what it does to all day events with multiple time shifts.

So there :wink:
Well said! :mrgreen:
Other than that little dig against those of us that have a different view, the article was very well written and complete. Thank you Carlo.

[Pony99CA]

It's a well-written and thorough description of the entire time zone topic. I'd like to add, though, that the application that helps me a lot is CityTime, from Codecity.net. Among its features, it adds a menu item to the Calendar application that allows you to specify the city/time zone for an appointment. That way, if my boss says "make an appointment for noon in Japan," I can do it without messing with the visiting time zone and such.

Another application that adds this capability is Trip Tracker from Two Peaks software.
That's good that some companies are trying to do things the right way. Too bad Microsoft doesn't address the problem in the correct place -- the Appointment entry dialog.

Do either of those programs allow you to view your Calendar in a specified time zone?

Steve

[Pony99CA]

"...while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."
I take a little umbrage at the implication that if you grasped the concept, you would like it. I fully understand the concept, what it does, and why it does it. I still don't like it, nor does it work for me without my having to modify my methodology and my experience to make use of this 'feature'.
I agree that it did seem a bit condescending to people who disagree with the feature, but maybe that's just a language issue.

However, I still don't get why you don't like the feature. I can understand why you wouldn't like the implementation of the feature, because it takes many more taps to enter appointments correctly and there's no quick way to view your calendar in another time zone. It's also confusing to new users who don't expect the behavior thanks to their paper-planner mindset.

But if the Calendar implementation was fixed to allow setting time zones during appointment entry and to allow viewing the Calendar in any given time zone, would you like the feature then? If not, why not?

Steve

[Ed Hansberry]

"...while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."

I take a little umbrage at the implication that if you grasped the concept, you would like it.
He didn't say that. He said "while some, after a while, ...." not "while everyone else" or "while all others."

Huge difference. We know there are some that have fully grasped it and don't like it. And you are entitled to be wrong. :devilboy: :wink: :lol:

[daS]

However, I still don't get why you don't like the feature. I can understand why you wouldn't like the implementation of the feature, because it takes many more taps to enter appointments correctly and there's no quick way to view your calendar in another time zone. It's also confusing to new users who don't expect the behavior thanks to their paper-planner mindset.
I think you state the case well as to why not to like this "feature". :wink:

Actually, I still believe that it was always a design that only had fixed time zones in mind and that is why it is so "clunky" :? to use if you change time zones.

But if the Calendar implementation was fixed to allow setting time zones during appointment entry and to allow viewing the Calendar in any given time zone, would you like the feature then? If not, why not?
In that case, I would agree that it would be a nice feature. Then it would be superior to a paper calendar instead of what it is now - which is far more work than is worth bothering with. (I simply never change my time zone now.)

[daS]

"...while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage."

I take a little umbrage at the implication that if you grasped the concept, you would like it.
He didn't say that. He said "while some, after a while, ...." not "while everyone else" or "while all others."
The full quote is:Some have managed to break it and bring it down to the level of the lowly paper based planner while some have, after a while, grasped the concept behind it and have used it to their advantage.
I'm sorry, but this does read as very condescending to those of us that fully understand it and still feel the implementation is cumbersome and requires the user to do far too much to fit the way the machine works instead of the other way around.

[Pony99CA]

But if the Calendar implementation was fixed to allow setting time zones during appointment entry and to allow viewing the Calendar in any given time zone, would you like the feature then? If not, why not?
In that case, I would agree that it would be a nice feature. Then it would be superior to a paper calendar instead of what it is now - which is far more work than is worth bothering with. (I simply never change my time zone now.)
That's a reasonable attitude, I think. You're willing to change if the feature works with you, not against you. :-D

Of the six people who have posted in this thread, five are MVPs (I'm the only one who's not :-(). If you count Carlo, who wrote the article being discussed, there are six MVPs interested in this issue. Get your MVP muscles out and get Microsoft to fix this. :-D

I know -- your influence is limited. :-? But this is an issue that has been proven to confuse new users. Even experienced users, like you and Sven, won't do things the "right" way because it's more work than it should be.

Fixing it won't really hurt third-party developers much (CityTime may have a redundant feature, but its main functions aren't made unnecessary). It's not like fixing Pocket Word, which could hurt third-party word processor vendors. Can you guys get together and convince Microsoft how useful these changes would be? (Or have you tried already?)

Steve

[Sven Johannsen]

But if the Calendar implementation was fixed to allow setting time zones during appointment entry and to allow viewing the Calendar in any given time zone, would you like the feature then? If not, why not?

Steve

No.
At the risk of starting yet another winless war, here is my problem. Say I am in LA and I am going to NY next week. I have a lunch appointment at 12 Noon on Wed in NY. I can use a number of methods to enter that appointment at the 'correct' time, some clunky, some like CityTime, quite convenient. All week now I stare at a 9AM appointment. If I just entered "Meet with Bob" I may not even realize it is a lunch date. My secretary (I wish) might even get me a midnight flight so I can make that 9AM meeting. Then another NY colleque calls me and asks if I'm free at 11AM, I may be distracted enough to think sure, I'll be done with the 9AM by then, rather than, sure, but I have less than an hour to spend with you, so I can make my 'Noon' meeting.

So now I'm in NY and I see I have a presentation to give at 1PM back on the West coast, so I make flight arrangements to make that. Of course, when I get home I have missed the meeting by 3 hours since it was really at 10AM.

So for me, I want the time shown to always be the time at which the thing happens, unshifted, because when I glance at it I will know where I will be at that time, but I don't want to have to mentally calculate what time it would be if I were where I'm not, rather than when it is where I won't be when it happens.

So that's my problem. I solve it by just changing the clock, rather than the zone or using the visiting feature. So you can only fix it for me, by breaking it for those that like it, or giving us a choice. That is, of course, not as simple as it sounds.

[daS]

Can you guys get together and convince Microsoft how useful these changes would be? (Or have you tried already?)
Without violating my NDA, I think I can safely say there are a few subjects that have been discussed between Microsoft and the MVPs in great detail. This is one.

As with at least one other such issue, I think the subject is (X) "closed". :wink:

[daS]

So for me, I want the time shown to always be the time at which the thing happens, unshifted, because when I glance at it I will know where I will be at that time, but I don't want to have to mentally calculate what time it would be if I were where I'm not, rather than when it is where I won't be when it happens.
The solution that I would see is to have a zone field for the start and end times of appointments. If used, the calendar could show both times next to each appointment. i.e.: "Meet with Bob" 12:00PM-EDT (9:00AM-PDT) The presentation of the two times could use icons to represent "home" and "visiting". To me this would finally be superior to a paper calendar and would avoid missing appointments for those that haven't "grasped the concept." :wink:

[MOrtenstein]

If used, the calendar could show both times next to each appointment. i.e.: "Meet with Bob" 12:00PM-EDT (9:00AM-PDT) The presentation of the two times could use icons to represent "home" and "visiting". To me this would finally be superior to a paper calendar and would avoid missing appointments for those that haven't "grasped the concept." :wink:

Well as far as I can remember, my very first PDA 1234 years ago was a Palm. I might be wrong but I think I entered the timezone TOGETHER with every appointment - very simple and fast with a dropdown menu. If then my 'local' time was different from the appt. zone - the PDA simply displayed 2 time columns in day-view... one local and one appt. - so I could easily see when to be where. Now THAT was nice! 8)

[Sven Johannsen]

If used, the calendar could show both times next to each appointment. i.e.: "Meet with Bob" 12:00PM-EDT (9:00AM-PDT)

Your PPC must be bigger than mine, I don't think all that would fit ;). Besides, I really don't care what time it is on the West coast when I'm having lunch with Bob.

David is right, about one thing...this has been discussed. At this point, it does what Outllook does and is patterned after, and designed to work with, Outlook. I'm not holding my breath for any philosophical catharsis. Especially since we can't even present a unified front :roll:

[Pony99CA]

But if the Calendar implementation was fixed to allow setting time zones during appointment entry and to allow viewing the Calendar in any given time zone, would you like the feature then? If not, why not?
No.
At the risk of starting yet another winless war, here is my problem. Say I am in LA and I am going to NY next week. I have a lunch appointment at 12 Noon on Wed in NY. I can use a number of methods to enter that appointment at the 'correct' time, some clunky, some like CityTime, quite convenient. All week now I stare at a 9AM appointment. If I just entered "Meet with Bob" I may not even realize it is a lunch date. My secretary (I wish) might even get me a midnight flight so I can make that 9AM meeting. Then another NY colleque calls me and asks if I'm free at 11AM, I may be distracted enough to think sure, I'll be done with the 9AM by then, rather than, sure, but I have less than an hour to spend with you, so I can make my 'Noon' meeting.

So now I'm in NY and I see I have a presentation to give at 1PM back on the West coast, so I make flight arrangements to make that. Of course, when I get home I have missed the meeting by 3 hours since it was really at 10AM.
These seem like human failings, though, not software failings. I realize that PDAs are supposed to help us overcome some of those human failings (like not having a built-in clock and perfect memory), but there's only so much that software can do.

In your example, instead of entering "Meet with Bob", enter "Lunch with Bob". :duh: If you're really forgetful or the 9 AM meeting confuses you, enter "Lunch with Bob at noon". Yes, it's a little more work, but not that bad, I hope.

If you have a secretary that makes flights without asking you about them, that sounds like her problem. If you haven't told her that meetings are scheduled in the time zone they take place in, that sounds like your problem. If she knows the meeting is in New York and sees it listed at noon, how will she know that's noon New York time unless you've told her? If she assumes it's noon your time (3 PM New York time), she might schedule a flight that causes you to miss the lunch.

As for that "1 PM" presentation, maybe you allowed it to be scheduled at 10 AM because you forgot the lunch was actually in New York. :-D

So for me, I want the time shown to always be the time at which the thing happens, unshifted, because when I glance at it I will know where I will be at that time, but I don't want to have to mentally calculate what time it would be if I were where I'm not, rather than when it is where I won't be when it happens.
As alluded to above, if you're so forgetful that you don't remember you're having lunch with Bob instead of a regular meeting, how do you know you won't forget where the meeting is? :-D

Another problem with your system is entering "backwards" flights. Suppose you want to enter a flight that crosses the International Date Line flying east. It's possible that your arrival time will be before your departure time. Try indicating that using your method. :-)

It's certainly not easy to enter it the correct way in Calendar (you'd have to switch to the Clock settings applet, change the visiting city to the departure location, switch back to Calendar, schedule the departure time, go back to Clock, change the visiting city to the arrival location, switch back to Calendar, set the arrival time and finally switch back to Clock to set your home city). However, if Microsoft made the changes we've suggested, it would be quick and easy.

I know I won't convince you of the "error" of your ways; I'm mostly going on about this to convince people on the fence why this is the correct way to work (as I assume Carlo was doing).

Steve

[andbrown]

...since we can't even present a unified front

This actually does illustrate that the issue isn't exactly cut and dried. Lots of passion on both sides, so no matter if it's changed or not, folks will be unhappy. If you're Microsoft, what do you do?

(not going to share my own opinion on the subject... :mrgreen: )

[Rob Alexander]

(I can't believe we're at this one again so soon!) :lol:

Without violating my NDA, I think I can safely say there are a few subjects that have been discussed between Microsoft and the MVPs in great detail. This is one.

As with at least one other such issue, I think the subject is (X) "closed". :wink:

That's a shame. I understand if they refuse to change the underlying system since that would have repercussions throughout the OS and on the desktop. But I can't see how they fail to understand the value of improving the interface so as to allow the entry of the time zone with the appointment, the viewing of appointments in their local time zones, etc. It wouldn't have to change the underlying philosophy of the concept, and would make the system easier to use for supporters and opponents alike.

Listen all you developers. We're talking interface stuff here and it would not be hard to develop a third-party appointment interface that did these things. Even better if it were one of the existing products like Agenda Fusion, PocketInformant or Dashboard. There is an untapped market here!

[Janak Parekh]

(I can't believe we're at this one again so soon!) :lol:
Sorry -- Carlo's article popped up, and I thought it was a worthwhile resource. ;)

Listen all you developers. We're talking interface stuff here and it would not be hard to develop a third-party appointment interface that did these things.
I think Brad suggested some workarounds, although you're right in suggesting that it could be integrated into PIMs directly.

--janak

[Sven Johannsen]

Gee Steve, if my memory was as good as you think it should be, I wouldn't need the darn PPC in the first place, or a paper planner. I do remember I'm going to NY and I do remember that it is Lunch with Bob, but the darn thing sits at 9AM on my calendar and I don't like that. If I had a secretary, she would know how I like it, and it would be consistant. That's my point, illustrated with an example. I'm not alone. Didn't say my way was right, or yours was wrong.

I think there are currently acceptable ways for both camps to satisfy themselves. You can buy a copy of CityTime (or several other apps) and enter appointments at whatever TZ you want with just a tap and hold. You can add whatever extraneous amplifying info you want to make your appointment make sense.

I'll just continue to change my clock.

[ricknash]

I have CityTime, and can access "city appointment" in "tools" when holding on an appointment in PI, but doing this brings up a new appointment--not the ability to change the time zone of an existing appointment.

What's the secret ?

[ppcsurfr]

The Time Zone implementation on the Pocket PC is not really broken... it just lacks the essential data displayed which has caused so many people to dislike the feature.

IMHO, a good way of making TZ implementation a more acceptable practice is to have both Local and Visiting Times visible... There are several ways of doing it...

1. to have a quick toggle switch that immediately changes the calendar view based on the current Time Zone...

2. to display both local and visiting times in the appointment.

3. to have 2 columns for the time just like the screenshot I have of Outlook 2003 in the article.

for those who didn't read my article, I gave some recommendations as to how you can make use of the current Calendar features and be more comfortable traveling across Time Zones.

1. know where you are and the current Time Zone.
2. know the Time Zone of the place you are visiting.
3. If you are making appointments for that visiting Time Zone, make sure that you shift to that Time Zone first prior to entering any data.
4. make sure you include a duplicate of that time in the appointment you are entering so that when you shift back to your home Time Zone, your appointment still bears the appointment times of the other Time Zone.

I understand very well what people are griping about... but disregarding the Time Zone feature or cutting corners IMHO just messes up the appointment system further... causing more confusion.

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

[rhmorrison]

It would appear to be the best solution if a third party PIM application such as Pocket Informant would allow selecting the timezone from a list where default would always be the current timezone. It should be possible via options to select which timezones that one wants to see in the list which of course can be changed at any time.

A second best solution would be to write a today screen application that would allow quickly switching between different timezones selected by the user.

PI apparently does not automatically update it's appointments when the timezone is changed. I had to close and restart PI for it to display properly.

P.S. It would appear that PI does offer a solution in the form of a seperate commercial utility program called PI CorrectTime (http://www.pocketinformant.com/p_correcttime.php). It might be useful for some people.

[ppcsurfr]

It would appear to be the best solution if a third party PIM application such as Pocket Informant would allow selecting the timezone from a list where default would always be the current timezone. It should be possible via options to select which timezones that one wants to see in the list which of course can be changed at any time.

A second best solution would be to write a today screen application that would allow quickly switching between different timezones selected by the user.

PI apparently does not automatically update it's appointments when the timezone is changed. I had to close and restart PI for it to display properly.

P.S. It would appear that PI does offer a solution in the form of a seperate commercial utility program called PI CorrectTime (http://www.pocketinformant.com/p_correcttime.php). It might be useful for some people.

Quite true! If someone can only come up with a solution.


I think Carlo was inspired by Kati's post and the ensuing debate (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29489). ;) Whether or not you agree with it, you may find Carlo's article useful in minimizing problems when you travel with your Pocket PC and/or desktop.

:wink: Yes. I was. Just wondering if I could make some sense out of it all. :D

Mabuhay ~ Carlo

[Sven Johannsen]

The problem with a third party trying to fix, or mitigate this, is that they all are based on the database that the PPC and Outlook use to store appointments. That DB does not have a timezone in it. The entries are placed in it based on GMT and they are displayed based on the currently selected TZ. You never really change the timezone of the appointment, you just slide the window through which you view it.

The key to CityTime, or others, is that you define the reference TZ when you make the appointment. What it does is enter the appt into the DB based on the TZ you select, not the current one displayed. You are right, there is no way to change the TZ on an existing appointment. There is no TZ value associated with it. Once entered, there is no way of knowing if that was really a 9AM west coast appt or a 12 noon East coast one, in the data that was stored. But, if your 12PM appointment in NY, which shows at 9AM in LA, get moved to 1PM, just change the displayed 9AM to 10AM. You guys who like the way it is should be good with that.;)

[daS]

The problem with a third party trying to fix, or mitigate this, is that they all are based on the database that the PPC and Outlook use to store appointments. That DB does not have a timezone in it. The entries are placed in it based on GMT and they are displayed based on the currently selected TZ.Once entered, there is no way of knowing if that was really a 9AM west coast appt or a 12 noon East coast one, in the data that was stored. But, if your 12PM appointment in NY, which shows at 9AM in LA, get moved to 1PM, just change the displayed 9AM to 10AM. You guys who like the way it is should be good with that.;)
The easy fix for a third party would be to simply allow the display of appointments based on both the "home" and "visiting" time zones of the Pocket PC. The developer tools in POOM can even automatically launch a third-party application when a time zone change is made. Thus allowing the application to do whatever it wants with the display of the data.

Of course this "solution" would not work for more than two time zones. So when I have a trip that takes me to Europe for a few days, then to the East Coast the following week, and finally back home, I will only see correct times for appointments at home and at one of my stops. Not perfect, but certainly better than now.

[ppcsurfr]

The easy fix for a third party would be to simply allow the display of appointments based on both the "home" and "visiting" time zones of the Pocket PC. The developer tools in POOM can even automatically launch a third-party application when a time zone change is made. Thus allowing the application to do whatever it wants with the display of the data.

Of course this "solution" would not work for more than two time zones. So when I have a trip that takes me to Europe for a few days, then to the East Coast the following week, and finally back home, I will only see correct times for appointments at home and at one of my stops. Not perfect, but certainly better than now.

This I think is the most practical one... I was thinking of another solution that would be appointment based... that is... if you tap and hold on an appointment you can show the calendar according to that time zone... but then I guess that can turn out to be a bit messy... I think the simpler solution is still better...

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

[daS]

I understand very well what people are griping about... but disregarding the Time Zone feature or cutting corners IMHO just messes up the appointment system further... causing more confusion
I don't see how you can say that. Disregarding the Time Zone feature works well and takes far less effort than the 57.65 :wink: clicks needed to enter a flight into the Pocket PC the "right" way. As for flights that arrive at a time before they take off, I simply enter the departure time and use the note field to keep the details such as arrival and seat assignments, etc. Not ideal, I know, but in the "real world" it seems to work since a 10+ hour flight is generally a major enough event that it's not easy to forget to check the schedule before booking other things for the same day.

For the rare times when I have to schedule a conference call at a specific time when I'm away from home, I then use the time zone feature for the unusual event.

But to your point that this is somehow "cuting corners", I'm sorry, but you still seem to think that it's wrong to expect the Pocket PC to make my work easier instead of my having to put far more effort than "normal" in order to work the way the device is set up. I should not be admonished for using the device in a way that works better for me. :idontthinkso: If Outlook is not "broken" then it's certainly poorly designed. This is based on the fact that its behavior is non-obvious and until you realize what it does, it can cause the user to miss appointments.

[55Kevy]

I tried resetting timezones when I first started using a PPC and got SO confused. I realized that I didn't really use the clock function on the PPC, I never look at it for the time, after all that's why I wear a watch. So I've adopted the attitude that the PPC is always in my time zone. I enter appointments for my core timezone (-8 UTC) and never change the time on the PPC. An 0800 meeting in London shows at 0800 wherever I am. My flights start at the departure time in that TZ and end at the landing time in that TZ. That way, when I fly from Singapore to San Francisco the flight time is only about 2 hrs. :D

This does make using the PPC as an alarm clock a little more challenging, but I rather have to make that calculation (what time in -8 UTC is 0600 where I am now) than seeing appointments on the calendar at times they aren't really happening.

K

[ppcsurfr]

I don't see how you can say that. Disregarding the Time Zone feature works well and takes far less effort than the 57.65 :wink: clicks needed to enter a flight into the Pocket PC the "right" way. As for flights that arrive at a time before they take off, I simply enter the departure time and use the note field to keep the details such as arrival and seat assignments, etc. Not ideal, I know, but in the "real world" it seems to work since a 10+ hour flight is generally a major enough event that it's not easy to forget to check the schedule before booking other things for the same day.

For the rare times when I have to schedule a conference call at a specific time when I'm away from home, I then use the time zone feature for the unusual event.

But to your point that this is somehow "cuting corners", I'm sorry, but you still seem to think that it's wrong to expect the Pocket PC to make my work easier instead of my having to put far more effort than "normal" in order to work the way the device is set up. I should not be admonished for using the device in a way that works better for me. :idontthinkso: If Outlook is not "broken" then it's certainly poorly designed. This is based on the fact that its behavior is non-obvious and until you realize what it does, it can cause the user to miss appointments.

Ohhh... I guess that comment didn't sound right... :(

There seems to be a gap between how it is actually working and how people wan it to appear. Don't get me wrong here... I too feel that the implementation of the UI for the calendar does nothing to simplify the concept of time zones...

How I wish that there is a way to automatically prompt the user of a TZ change when the appointment begins to be active... In other words... being able to set a TimeZone shift duration which allows for automatic time zone shifting.

The 57.65 clicks to enter appointments the right way may... indeed be the correct way of doing it... but this still depends so much on the user's acceptance. If the user does not accept the procedure... then something must be wrong somewhere... And in this case I'd point it at the UI.

People who cut corners and not really fully utilize the functinality of Outlook will not experience problems... but try doing the Time Shift method where there is complete disregard for the TZ... This completely destroys the usefulness of Meeting Requests... both for those being sent from the device and those being received in the device.

CityTime helps and so does TripTracker... so far the best solutions for this situation...

How I wish that there is a simpler way of doing it the right way... :|

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

[ppcsurfr]

I tried resetting timezones when I first started using a PPC and got SO confused. I realized that I didn't really use the clock function on the PPC, I never look at it for the time, after all that's why I wear a watch. So I've adopted the attitude that the PPC is always in my time zone. I enter appointments for my core timezone (-8 UTC) and never change the time on the PPC. An 0800 meeting in London shows at 0800 wherever I am. My flights start at the departure time in that TZ and end at the landing time in that TZ. That way, when I fly from Singapore to San Francisco the flight time is only about 2 hrs. :D

This does make using the PPC as an alarm clock a little more challenging, but I rather have to make that calculation (what time in -8 UTC is 0600 where I am now) than seeing appointments on the calendar at times they aren't really happening.

K

Well, this is what I meant by cutting corners... it has worked as a good solution for some people, while probably not for some...

No matter how you treat TimeZones... it will end up biting back and sometimes in a bad way. So I guess whether you do it the right way or another way... something seems to come up...

55Kevy, I understand that you are quite comfortable with the way you use your PPCs calendar function... and probably what I'm about to tell you will not even matter. All I'm trying to prove is that what others see as a fix, others may see as the opposite. Which means that something has to be done so that it will be generally accepted as correct... something to unify the two groups... the ones for it and the ones against it.

With your time set that way and you are in Singapore and you send your colleagues a Meeting Request from your Pocket PC which is actually a calendar appointment sent over email, what time do you think will they be attending that meeting? May it be a phone meeting or a video conference. If your colleague is in Singapore too and another is in the UK... what time will they be waiting for your call?

Anyway... I just hope that whatever I wrote over at PPCW.Net helps others make the most out of the Pocket PC's TZ feature.

Carlo

[Pony99CA]

...since we can't even present a unified front
This actually does illustrate that the issue isn't exactly cut and dried. Lots of passion on both sides, so no matter if it's changed or not, folks will be unhappy. If you're Microsoft, what do you do?
The way appointments are stored in the database is fixed, and changing that would likely break a lot of things. Given that, Microsoft should make the user interface for entering appointments in different time zones easier, which won't hurt anybody but will make a lot more people happy.

I view the users discussing this in three classes, and here's how they break down.

People who do things the "right" way (like Carlo). These people enter appointments in the way that works with Outlook.

They'll still do it the same way after the user interface changes, but it won't take nearly as many taps, so they'll be happy.

People who do things the "wrong" way because the "right" way is too difficult (like David).

These people ignore time zones or just change the clock, but would do things the "right" way if the user interface weren't so cumbersome. David even said he would do things the right way if the interface changed, so the change should make him happy.

People who do things the "wrong" way because they simply don't like the "right" way (like Sven).

These people ignore time zones or just change the clock because something about the way appointments work bothers them. They probably won't use the user interface changes suggested, but they won't be hurt by them, either.

As the changes won't hurt anybody and will make two groups happy, why not make them? (For reference, the changes are adding time zones to the appointment entry screen to "pre-shift" the times and adding a viewing option in the Calendar to display appointment times relative to a specified time zone.)

If you want to make the third group happy, add a check box to the Clock settings applet that says something like Display appointments as entered, regardless of time zone.

Steve

P.S. Do you have a WWMD (What Would Microsoft Do) bracelet? :-D

[Pony99CA]

As for flights that arrive at a time before they take off, I simply enter the departure time and use the note field to keep the details such as arrival and seat assignments, etc. Not ideal, I know, but in the "real world" it seems to work since a 10+ hour flight is generally a major enough event that it's not easy to forget to check the schedule before booking other things for the same day.
The other solution to "backward" flights is to enter the departure as one appointment and the arrival as another.

However, the problem with both "fixed-time" flights and two appointments is that you can't see how long the flight is. It may not matter to you, but somebody checking a shared calendar might get very confused.

But to your point that this is somehow "cuting corners", I'm sorry, but you still seem to think that it's wrong to expect the Pocket PC to make my work easier instead of my having to put far more effort than "normal" in order to work the way the device is set up. I should not be admonished for using the device in a way that works better for me. :idontthinkso: If Outlook is not "broken" then it's certainly poorly designed. This is based on the fact that its behavior is non-obvious and until you realize what it does, it can cause the user to miss appointments.
I agree with this completely. I'm willing to put up with the hassle Pocket Outlook imposes because I see the benefit it provides doing things the "right" way.

However, I'm also lazy enough to understand why others don't want the hassle. You've indicated that you would be willing to use appointments "correctly" if Microsoft fixed the user interface, which is about as reasonable as it gets.

Microsoft fixing the user interface would also give new users a clue that time zones were important, and they'd be more likely to enter them when they created an appointment. They might be surprised to see their meeting "jump" to a different time after entering it, but at least they wouldn't have the alarm go off at the wrong time when they changed their time zone.

Steve

[daS]

With your time set that way and you are in Singapore and you send your colleagues a Meeting Request from your Pocket PC which is actually a calendar appointment sent over email, what time do you think will they be attending that meeting? May it be a phone meeting or a video conference. If your colleague is in Singapore too and another is in the UK... what time will they be waiting for your call?
One point that some of you might be missing is that a lot of people do not use the "attendee list" to invite others to meetings. Instead, a manually composed email is used. Such emails can state the meeting time and time zone. I do this because Outlook automatically sends the notes field of the appointment to all attendees. Like the time zones, I think this is also broken :wink: since I keep what maybe private notes from a meeting or conference call in Outlook. I don't like the fact that these notes might end up being sent to my vendors, customers, etc.. :roll:

Another reason to send out a manually composed invite is that (shockingly 8O ) not everyone uses Outlook, and some people even want plain text messages.

[Pony99CA]

One point that some of you might be missing is that a lot of people do not use the "attendee list" to invite others to meetings. Instead, a manually composed email is used. Such emails can state the meeting time and time zone. I do this because Outlook automatically sends the notes field of the appointment to all attendees. Like the time zones, I think this is also broken :wink: since I keep what maybe private notes from a meeting or conference call in Outlook. I don't like the fact that these notes might end up being sent to my vendors, customers, etc.. :roll:
Whoa, I didn't know that. There should definitely be an option (per E-mail) to turn that off. I can just imagine a private note like "I had to invite that (w)itch Janice to the meeting to discuss the marketing campaign" being sent to Janice. :evil:

Steve

[ppcsurfr]

One point that some of you might be missing is that a lot of people do not use the "attendee list" to invite others to meetings. Instead, a manually composed email is used. Such emails can state the meeting time and time zone. I do this because Outlook automatically sends the notes field of the appointment to all attendees. Like the time zones, I think this is also broken :wink: since I keep what maybe private notes from a meeting or conference call in Outlook. I don't like the fact that these notes might end up being sent to my vendors, customers, etc.. :roll:
Whoa, I didn't know that. There should definitely be an option (per E-mail) to turn that off. I can just imagine a private note like "I had to invite that (w)itch Janice to the meeting to discuss the marketing campaign" being sent to Janice. :evil:

Steve

And here again... is something which I do not agree with David.

I believe so much in Meeting requests and I think it isn't hard to keep in mind that Meeting Requests are types of appointments that you'd want all attendees to see including notes.

But one thing though that is done with meeting requests is that you're supposed to send out the meeting request before you put notes into that particular appointment though...

I feel tat meeting requests in the Pocket PC is lacking because I cannot receive Notes embedded in them... :-(

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

[Brad Adrian]

I agree that meeting requests can be made better on the Pocket PC. My problem is that the way I have to do meeting requests involves deep retrieval and review of my peers' calendars. On the Pocket PC that's not possible or even feasible.

[daS]

I believe so much in Meeting requests and I think it isn't hard to keep in mind that Meeting Requests are types of appointments that you'd want all attendees to see including notes.

But one thing though that is done with meeting requests is that you're supposed to send out the meeting request before you put notes into that particular appointment though...
I think the general "disconnect" we have is that I don't think that users "are supposed to" do anything the way a tool demains, but instead that the tool should be able to accommodate reasonable differences in the way people work.

In general, Outlook assumes an "enterprise" work model. That is, most interactions with people are within a single monolithic organization (like Microsoft itself.) I certainly understand the value of group calendaring, conference call planning (yes, across different time zones :wink: ), etc. When I was consulting at large corporations these features were invaluable. But for mobile workers whose primary interactions are with other organizations (such as vendors and customers) the design is not well suited.

I certainly don't want my vendors to see my availability automatically when they want to schedule a meeting with me (and of course, since we would not be in the same Exchange server, the couldn't anyway.) Also, I generally have different messages I want to accompany meeting requests to different attendees. Say I plan an introductory meeting with a customer: The request to attend to my colleges would include the importance of this new prospect, the request to the client would have a different message. Requests to admin staff would have yet another set of notes. So the meeting planning feature - while powerful for the enterprise, is mostly useless for other types of users.

But while such features don't apply as well to small groups that interact with a much larger set of outside contacts, I don't think that enterprise users "need to do things right" and follow what works best for me, instead I think that the tools should be flexible enough work in both common environments.

[ppcsurfr]

I think the general "disconnect" we have is that I don't think that users "are supposed to" do anything the way a tool demains, but instead that the tool should be able to accommodate reasonable differences in the way people work.

In general, Outlook assumes an "enterprise" work model. That is, most interactions with people are within a single monolithic organization (like Microsoft itself.) I certainly understand the value of group calendaring, conference call planning (yes, across different time zones :wink: ), etc. When I was consulting at large corporations these features were invaluable. But for mobile workers whose primary interactions are with other organizations (such as vendors and customers) the design is not well suited.

I certainly don't want my vendors to see my availability automatically when they want to schedule a meeting with me (and of course, since we would not be in the same Exchange server, the couldn't anyway.) Also, I generally have different messages I want to accompany meeting requests to different attendees. Say I plan an introductory meeting with a customer: The request to attend to my colleges would include the importance of this new prospect, the request to the client would have a different message. Requests to admin staff would have yet another set of notes. So the meeting planning feature - while powerful for the enterprise, is mostly useless for other types of users.

But while such features don't apply as well to small groups that interact with a much larger set of outside contacts, I don't think that enterprise users "need to do things right" and follow what works best for me, instead I think that the tools should be flexible enough work in both common environments.

In that case, I think I'd say... It isn't perfect and it can still be made better... I get your point... and about the "disconnect" issue... I think you have a point there too.

The way I look at things is more or less in an analytical way and I've always worked on making something work well for me. I want to be efficient and at the same time in control... The path I normally take is learn it well and make use of its features to the fullest.

I know not a lot of people will have the same time or patience and I know a lot of people expect the design to jive right away with how they're used to doing things... but thae fact is it is never like that... and mixing personal preferences and enterprise standards sometimes simply adds to more confusion and a steeper learning curve.

All I thought was that if I could make things clearer maybe more people will appreciate the way the Pocket PC TZ works. Well, I just hope it has helped someone...

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo