PocketGear increases its fees

[DinarSoft]

We just got an EMail from PocketGear
They just increased their royalty from 20% to 30% (plus the other charges)
We're thinking of pulling off our software of their web site

We think it's a bye bye to reasnably priced software

We sell a utility like HandyLauncher for 2.99$

We used to get 2$ of the sale (66% to us 33% to them)

Now with their new model selling the same software will go like this
Base price 2.99
CreditCard fees -0.11
Processing fees -0.35
---------------------------
Total 2.53
royality(30%) -0.76
---------------------------
We get 1.77 (59% for us, 41% to them)

of course the affect is lower on high-priced products
and the difference (in cents) might look small, but the percentage difference is big and this price model change might just be the beggining of more increases

We do all the work (idea, investigation, design, code, debug, marketing, support, ...etc)
They list the software on their web site
and they get almost half the money
:( :( :(

[ctitanic]

Like I said at BrightHand...
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=694904#post694904
Developers will have to increase prices to keep getting the same amount they were getting before July 1st.

Up today I had all my prices the same in all resellers but my site where the price using paypal is lower.

Starting from July 1st I'm changing the price for Tweaks2k2 (http://www.pc-counselor.com/downloads.htm) to:

PocketGear - $15.03
Handango - $12.99 (current price)
PC Counselor (Paypal) - $10.20

But I know that no every developer will react in the same way, some will take as reference the highest price and will increase the price in the rest of the stores as well.

[ctitanic]

We just got an EMail from PocketGear
They just increased their royality from 20% to 30% (plus the other charges)


Have you replied to them? I did saying that was a big mistake and that that change in the agreement was pushing me to increase prices. I believe that if they feel the pressure of us developer they will at least don't charge us with that stupid $1.12 fee.

[buckyg]

As a software customer, I hate it when prices go up. That said, I do really appreciate the explanation of why you will/might be raising prices and/or pulling your software off of PocketGear. The details make it a lot better to understand and accept as opposed to some generic explanation about your costs.

Sites like PocketGear and Handango are convenient because I can go there to get software from many developers, instead of having to go to individual sites. However, if they keep this up, it's worth my while to cut out the middle man. (It is certainly worth *your* while) I do hope that folks go to your site then to purchase, instead of giving up or going elsewhere.

Thanks for the explanation and good luck!
buckyg

[surur]

Yes, I have no problem buying from a developers web site itself. If this means a product can be got for $20 instead of $30 because 33% is no longer going to pocketgear, thats only good news. I never browse those aggregation websites in any case, but get my recommendations from forums and the front page here. I dont think they add very much value at all.

Its kind of similar to artists and the music industry. Developers should spend more time trying to increase the profile for their own store or produce small cooperatives between 3-4 developers to share the cost. As soon as the aggregation sites get too large they start getting greedy.

The best way to show pocketgear that they are wrong is to use differential prices on different web sites, and have adverts like:

Tweaks 2K3 Now out! $10 at PcCouncellor, $15 at Pocketgear.

Which one do you think the buyers will go to? And when their business suffers they will change their ways.

Anyways, bets of luck.

Surur

[Stone]

Just an FYI, PocketPCMall.com (http://www.pocketpcmall.com) is still only 25% :wink:

You can start selling (http://www.pocketpcmall.com/pp_info.php) today!

[ppcinfo]

Starting from July 1st I'm changing the price for Tweaks2k2 (http://www.pc-counselor.com/downloads.htm) to:

PocketGear - $15.03
Handango - $12.99 (current price)
PC Counselor (Paypal) - $10.20

Handango.com has a stipulation that you can't have a variation in price. If they see that you are selling at $10.20 on your own web site, thet will lower the cost on their site to match. The new PocketGear.com may do the same thing soon.

As a developer, I wouldn't mind that PocketGear.com (or Handango.com) increase their percentage, if they would only market like crazy and bring in more sales. From what I can tell, they aren't doing this.

ppcinfo

[Kati Compton]

I may not be normal, I freely admit that. But I don't tend to browse Handango or PocketGear looking for random software. I search the forums or ask here if I need something. And then I google for it, and frequently find the author's page to read more about it before purchasing (generally from their site).

I wonder what % of software purchases are from Handango or PocketGear vs. the author's own homepage.

[cscullion]

I can only speak from my own experience as a developer, but I get about 80% of my sales through PalmGear, PocketGear, and Handango. I don't like the cost increase either, and this is not the first one, but I view these as sales I wouldn't otherwise get, so I grin and bear it. And, in case anyone is curious, I sell about 5 Palm versions of my program for every one Pocket PC version. Both are at the same price, and both are available at the same numer of outlets.

[ctitanic]

Just an FYI, PocketPCMall.com (http://www.pocketpcmall.com) is still only 25% :wink:

You can start selling (http://www.pocketpcmall.com/pp_info.php) today!

Sorry, I started with many resellers, today I keep only two of them why because the rest only sold a few copies of my programs every two month. Don't get me wrong, I have not tested your service but that's my experience. I spent a lot time updating all those sites everytime I released an version and the cost of that time was bigger than the money I was getting from them.

[dommasters]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

[ctitanic]

I may not be normal, I freely admit that. But I don't tend to browse Handango or PocketGear looking for random software. I search the forums or ask here if I need something. And then I google for it, and frequently find the author's page to read more about it before purchasing (generally from their site).

I wonder what % of software purchases are from Handango or PocketGear vs. the author's own homepage.

I'll tell you in my case

Handango 55%
PocketGear 25%
PayPal 30%

Since PalmGear bought PocketGear the % is a little higher but I would say that for 2 or 3 % higher than Paypal.

[ctitanic]

Starting from July 1st I'm changing the price for Tweaks2k2 (http://www.pc-counselor.com/downloads.htm) to:

PocketGear - $15.03
Handango - $12.99 (current price)
PC Counselor (Paypal) - $10.20

Handango.com has a stipulation that you can't have a variation in price. If they see that you are selling at $10.20 on your own web site, thet will lower the cost on their site to match. The new PocketGear.com may do the same thing soon.

As a developer, I wouldn't mind that PocketGear.com (or Handango.com) increase their percentage, if they would only market like crazy and bring in more sales. From what I can tell, they aren't doing this.

ppcinfo

Software Owner will provide the SRP for all Software being distributed pursuant to this Agreement. At no time shall the Software's SRP provided to Publisher be higher than the Software's SRP provided to other distributors. The actual retail price of the Software to be determined by Handango may differ from the SRP provided by Software Owner.

I consider myself "Software Onwer" no "Other Distributor"

[ppcinfo]

Starting from July 1st I'm changing the price for Tweaks2k2 (http://www.pc-counselor.com/downloads.htm) to:

PocketGear - $15.03
Handango - $12.99 (current price)
PC Counselor (Paypal) - $10.20

Handango.com has a stipulation that you can't have a variation in price. If they see that you are selling at $10.20 on your own web site, thet will lower the cost on their site to match. The new PocketGear.com may do the same thing soon.

As a developer, I wouldn't mind that PocketGear.com (or Handango.com) increase their percentage, if they would only market like crazy and bring in more sales. From what I can tell, they aren't doing this.

ppcinfo

Software Owner will provide the SRP for all Software being distributed pursuant to this Agreement. At no time shall the Software's SRP provided to Publisher be higher than the Software's SRP provided to other distributors. The actual retail price of the Software to be determined by Handango may differ from the SRP provided by Software Owner.

I consider myself "Software Onwer" no "Other Distributor"

I only bring this up, because they got on my case for having a lower price on my web site, and they changed the price to match on Handango's site. I love using PayPal myself, however, a lot of people hate using it for a payment method because they have to sign up for an account and jump through a bunch of hoops.

ppcinfo

[ctitanic]

Well, I have shown you one point that you can use to argue with them. The other point is that at my site I'm saying that this is a limited time discount.
I have been using discount codes with them too, I don't think that they can tell me not to do the same with other companies including myself.

[alex_kac]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

I personally have talked with many high volume developers about this over the last 4 years. I know I'm so very willing to do it. The problem? Simple. Handango DRIVES traffic because of their portals, their flyers in new PDA boxes, etc...

To do this right, one would have to do some good advertising to make people go here. I'd LOVE a "Developer co-op"

[DinarSoft]

I may not be normal, I freely admit that. But I don't tend to browse Handango or PocketGear looking for random software. I search the forums or ask here if I need something. And then I google for it, and frequently find the author's page to read more about it before purchasing (generally from their site).

I wonder what % of software purchases are from Handango or PocketGear vs. the author's own homepage.

I'll tell you in my case

Handango 55%
PocketGear 25%
PayPal 30%

Since PalmGear bought PocketGear the % is a little higher but I would say that for 2 or 3 % higher than Paypal.


In our case it's different (and that's maybe why we are thinking of pulling our software off of PocketGear)

For HandyMenu (http://www.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=1&jid=E8148FXC7B8E747A392B8B4317E1C14C&platformId=2&productType=2&catalog=0&sectionId=0&productId=79935) (our best selling utility)
The sales we get are
90% from HandAnGo
10% from PocketGear

[dommasters]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

I personally have talked with many high volume developers about this over the last 4 years. I know I'm so very willing to do it. The problem? Simple. Handango DRIVES traffic because of their portals, their flyers in new PDA boxes, etc...

To do this right, one would have to do some good advertising to make people go here. I'd LOVE a "Developer co-op"

You wouldn't need too many developers to begin with ... just stipulate that any developers signing up would have to sell via the site rather than their own sites. I'd love a cooperative too :0) The site would be owned by the developers so there's no loss .... commission would DECREASE as more developers signed up LOL. Developers could meet with "The Board" and direct them as to our interests LOL and shares would be created and distributed equally... blah ...

As for the flyers most manufacturers are beginning to bypass resellers such as Handango completely. HP with iPaqChoice, Nokia and Sony with their new stores (not the Sony Handango one which I note keeps moving on the Sony site .... so that it is harder and harder to find .... obvious why ....).

Not sure we'd all need such involving separate web sites so much either.... could have integrated support, integerated company info, integrated moderated forums....

My experience lately is that resellers put themselves first then the developer. That is of course 100% NATURAL ! If we had our own site then .... well I won't state anymore of the obvious ;0).

Just ideas ....

We'd also need confidentiality whilst setting it up LOL. I've 1000 ideas for a better site than are out there now but .... if we discuss them then we wouldn't be first :)

[ctitanic]

Well if all of us post a banner in our own site that cooperative will get a lot of clicks ;)

So count me on that list guys!

[dommasters]

Certainly something to think about ;)

[buckyg]

Like I mentioned in my previous post, the reseller's advantage to me is a "one stop shop". I would definitely visit and purchase from a co-op such as you all are talking about. Just a vote from a consumer, for whatever that's worth.

[dommasters]

Like I mentioned in my previous post, the reseller's advantage to me is a "one stop shop". I would definitely visit and purchase from a co-op such as you all are talking about. Just a vote from a consumer, for whatever that's worth.

And so you should because .... prices should be much lower ;) By having lower prices yet getting the same amount or even more after commission, we'd all be winners....
I doubt it will ever happen tho'

[DinarSoft]

Well if all of us post a banner in our own site that cooperative will get a lot of clicks ;)

So count me on that list guys!

You can count us in as well
whenever this happens :)

[ppcinfo]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

This may be easier said than done. To have such a robust site, it may be necessary to charge developers at least 20% to cover the cost of secured credit card payment methods, web site hosting, and web site maintenance. For the heavy traffic that Handango and PocketGear experiences, you would certainly need to pay for the heavy bandwidth access to a web site host provider. You would also need to pay for disk space for storing uploaded files an images.

I don't want to sound negative about this, but practically this may be more costly than you might think. Also, without a good deal of advertisement of such a web site, sales would certainly be minimal. I know of two online distributor web sites that appear to have folded up in part due to these reasons.

But then again, there are a number of resourceful people out there who might find this to be a challenging feat to accomplish!

ppcinfo

[Pat Logsdon]

Did PocketGear give any reason for the price hike, or was it just presented as "Here's what we'll take now, thanks"...?

Just curious.

[surur]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

This may be easier said than done. To have such a robust site, it may be necessary to charge developers at least 20% to cover the cost of secured credit card payment methods, web site hosting, and web site maintenance. For the heavy traffic that Handango and PocketGear experiences, you would certainly need to pay for the heavy bandwidth access to a web site host provider. You would also need to pay for disk space for storing uploaded files an images.

ppcinfo

Before downloading any software from handago or pocketgear, I always go to the developers website first, to read the change list etc. If I saw a link on their website for a different aggregate site, I would likely click it. What I cant understand is why there should be a commission (10-20%), instead of just a flat rate (e.g. $2-3 for processing costs), including bandwidth, storage costs and credit card costs. Why should it cost more for to deliver a $5 package than a $20 package. Besides the CC charges, the rest should remain the same.

This is the internet. The barriers to entry are low, and by concentrating on advertising on pda enthusiast sites, traffic should be driven quite rapidly.

Anyways, I think people should give it a try. Why not unseat the old and fat incumbents?

Surur

[DinarSoft]

Did PocketGear give any reason for the price hike, or was it just presented as "Here's what we'll take now, thanks"...?

Just curious.

The only reason we see from their EMail is that they want to get more profit
read their EMail below

Greetings DEVELOPER,

PocketGear.com and Smartphone.net, a division of PowerByHand, are committed to furthering our position as the world’s largest and most popular commercial internet sites devoted to third-party solutions for the Windows Mobile platform. With more than 1.5 million unique visitors monthly to our site and more than 6,000 registered Windows Mobile developers, our goal is to be THE online destination for handheld owners worldwide. In addition to the PocketGear.com and Smartphone.net sites, an important part of our distribution model is our growing network of top tier affiliates sites such as PocketPCPassion.com, DevBuzz.com, ipaqSoft.net and SmartphoneThoughts.com. Other key elements include our partnerships with Microsoft’s Mobile2Market program (official distributor partner) as well as Quality Logic (logo testing) to bring quality applications to the mobile market.

In the last year, we have experienced a tremendous 58% revenue growth. 2004 sales are up 37% over the same period last year and revenues should continue to rise with several new partnerships soon to be announced.

Our recent merger with Pinpoint Networks and PowerByHand, owner of PalmGear.com, have cemented our position as the global leader for content delivery services and have expanded the marketplace for developers to distribute mobile content. PowerByHand is committed to being the world’s leading provider of mobile content solutions for consumers, content providers, e-tailers and mobile operators. Today, PowerByHand offers a selection of over 60,000 digital media titles to millions of customers through our leading consumer sites: PalmGear.com, eReader.com, Smartphone.net and PocketGear.com. Both PocketGear and Smartphone.net will benefit from our carrier-class mobile content solutions currently support over 50 million mobile subscribers through partners such as Verizon, mmO2, Lycos and PalmSource.

PocketGear.com and Smartphone.net are also going to benefit from PowerByHand’s international operations. PowerByHand currently has offices in China and the UK, and has recently hired Tony Philipp to aggressively lead our expansion into new markets. PowerByHand is committed to being the world’s leading provider of mobile content solutions for consumers, content providers, e-tailers and mobile operators.

The most important barometer of our success is our ability to help our developer partners grow their businesses. We understand that your hard work and your compelling software are the key ingredients to creating a successful mobile marketplace ecosystem. We are committing more resources in all aspects of our business - from marketing, to technology, to business development - to ensure that PocketGear and Smartphone.net are successful partners for you and your company.

To enable PocketGear and Smartphone.net to aggressively launch more affiliate distribution channels, including some of the world’s leading carriers, we need to ensure our Reseller Agreement is more inline with carrier requirements and those of our other web properties. This includes calculating royalty rates based on a Gross Revenue minus Transaction Cost model and increasing the current royalty rate to 30%.

Below is the new formula for calculating royalties which goes into effect on July 1, 2004:

Actual Sales Price minus Transaction Costs equals Net Sales minus Royalty Rate equals Net to Developer.

An example for an application with a sales price of $19.99:

$19.99 sales price

-$1.12 (minus transaction cost*)

$18.87 net base for royalty

-$5.66 minus 30% royalty rate (40% for Premier Partners)

$13.21 net to developer

*Current transaction costs are estimated at 3.85% of gross plus $.35 per transaction.

Developer Transaction Adjustment will take effect on July 1, 2004.

Per our Software Distribution Agreement allowance is made for thirty days notice effective June 1, 2004 that our Agreement has been amended.

At PocketGear.com and Smartphone.net we are committed to aggressively providing our strategic partners, developers and customers with technical enhancements and superior service to strengthen our position as the industry leader in the Windows Mobile software marketplace.

We wish to thank you for your valued partnership and know that you will understand the necessity for this transaction adjustment.

If you have any questions or inquiries, please contact us via email at [email protected].

Thank you.

Our Best Regards,

The PocketGear and Smartphone.net Team

[BobWitt]

I received the same letter and it really frosts me... I was processing off of my own site using Verisign Payflow Link for the first year, but the fixed monthly fees ate everything up... Canceled that and referred everyone to PocketGear and now this...

I was just looking into PayPal - From this thread it looks like they also charge a percentage?!?! I figured it would be only a reasonable per-transaction fee... No joy...

I also don't like the sound of the hoops that a customer would need to jump through...

I think I'm looking for something like PayPal, where they simply provide the credit card and don't need to anything other than is required with any other transaction... Anyone have a clue??

I just updated my software on PocketGear Monday. On Tuesday afternoon I checked and about a dozen people had downloaded after the update - but wait - all the detail was updated but not the download (evident by file size)... So I wrote them and today the installers were updated...

So these people were reading about these great updates, and what they downloaded and installed didn't match the detail they read! Maybe when they get half of my money the updates will happen in 24 hours rather than 48!!

Like I said - this frosts me...

BobWitt

[darrylb]

Im annoyed by this too. I replied to the email and asked why I should keep selling through them... I really dont see any differentiator between PocketGear and Handango, except that 95% of my sales are through Handango.

The letter reads like they are ramping up advertising and affiliates. Buy you have to pay to be in these schemes anyway, so there is not really a good reason to stay.

As for what split is between PocketGear and Handango - I think it depends on the type of software. Mine is corporate focused and 95% goes through Handango.

Personally, I think I'll ditch PocketGear and just go with Handango and my own website (which I'll need to setup).

If developers set up one - count me in! The key would be to get sites like this one to partner with the site exclusively. This would be what drives up the margin - PPCT and geekzone, etc depend on advertising and affiliate sales to stay alive, so the margin they enjoy would need to be comparible. This alone might scuttle the idea.

Nothing like competition though!

[ctitanic]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

This may be easier said than done. To have such a robust site, it may be necessary to charge developers at least 20% to cover the cost of secured credit card payment methods, web site hosting, and web site maintenance. For the heavy traffic that Handango and PocketGear experiences, you would certainly need to pay for the heavy bandwidth access to a web site host provider. You would also need to pay for disk space for storing uploaded files an images.

I don't want to sound negative about this, but practically this may be more costly than you might think. Also, without a good deal of advertisement of such a web site, sales would certainly be minimal. I know of two online distributor web sites that appear to have folded up in part due to these reasons.

But then again, there are a number of resourceful people out there who might find this to be a challenging feat to accomplish!

ppcinfo

Why are you thinking so complicated?
All we need is a page where we can post a little ad with the description of the software and a link to our to our Page where users can buy and download the software. So basically what we need is a page that will list all the programs availables to be bought using Paypal at a cheaper cost. I believe that if somebody contact Paypal with such idea they will help. ;)

[kthome]

I have to agree that it may be time to "do our own thang...".

While PocketGear and HandAngo has been terrific for exposure and prompt technical responses, the cost is getting to the point where a private developer has to re-consider the whole idea of PocketPC development.

Granted it was the first project, but developing MySports Soccer took roughly a year to draft the idea, pseudo code, CODE IT, debug it, create the necessary artwork, develop the webpages, upload it to the sites, etc..and for what, so the resellers can take 30-50%??

Let me tell ya something, a development cycle like the above (and I am sure alot of us do it the same way) more than justifies $10-$30 for an app. The resellers conitinuous "we are doing this and that and need more money for it" WITHOUT asking US the developers, without which they would not exist I remind you, DOES NOT JUSTIFY THERE COSTS!!

Hmmmm...no wonder OpenSource is making such strides...and I support it, but programmers have to eat...

Current reseller schemes wreaks of "fat cat" business practices. People on the floor are grinding it out all day to make the product, while the ass cracks at the top pull in to the parking lot driving the latest mercedes, etc.


damn...now you got me going!!

Keith Thome
CodeDolphin Software :devilboy:

[ctitanic]

Copy of my email to PocketGear

Whom it may concern.

This increase is just abusive. If you take the average price of $12 to $15 dollars and subtract $1.12 and after that you apply a 30% at the end the developer will receive only 64 % of the listed price. This commission is higher than in any other place around.

Since yesterday I have been analyzing and consulting this situation with other developers and PocketGear is far away to be a good
reseller for my software. According to my statistics your company only have sold 20% of all the copies sold per month in the last year 1/2 while Handango has sold 60% of all other copies. My own page is selling 20% without having any marketing program available. So you are really not in a good position to take this kind of measures.
I could understand an increase in 30% without having any other
discounts ($1.12) but what you are requesting is just abusive.

If your company don't change this position before July 1st I'll consider two options:
1- Deactive all my software listed at your site and move them to other resellers.
2- Increase the price applying a reverse formula to the one proposed
by you. This will keep my royalties at the same level but will put your company in a bad position compared to the price that other competitors will have in my software.

Best Regards

[ctitanic]

I do believe that we have to send them our thoughts about their price increase.

Note: Somebody is preparing already a site where we can list software to be sold using Paypal. And for free. :D That is going to be great :D if all of us listing in that site add a little banner in our sites pointing to them we will have a lot of exposure. ;)

[ppcinfo]

Surely with all the programming expertise available developers could get together and make their own site ? Commission could be 10% or so and used to hire staff etc. Site would be owned by developers. If enough developers signed up then phone co's etc would be forced to use it :0) Handango now charge us 50% which does seem a lot, especially as they are now about 38% of our turnover compared to about 90% a few years ago ...
Dom

This may be easier said than done. To have such a robust site, it may be necessary to charge developers at least 20% to cover the cost of secured credit card payment methods, web site hosting, and web site maintenance. For the heavy traffic that Handango and PocketGear experiences, you would certainly need to pay for the heavy bandwidth access to a web site host provider. You would also need to pay for disk space for storing uploaded files an images.

I don't want to sound negative about this, but practically this may be more costly than you might think. Also, without a good deal of advertisement of such a web site, sales would certainly be minimal. I know of two online distributor web sites that appear to have folded up in part due to these reasons.

But then again, there are a number of resourceful people out there who might find this to be a challenging feat to accomplish!

ppcinfo

Why are you thinking so complicated?
All we need is a page where we can post a little ad with the description of the software and a link to our to our Page where users can buy and download the software. So basically what we need is a page that will list all the programs availables to be bought using Paypal at a cheaper cost. I believe that if somebody contact Paypal with such idea they will help. ;)

I agree that what you're proposing isn't too complicated. I thought the idea was to create a "Pocketgear-like" web site that would store and distribute uploaded install files and would handle credit card transactions, etc. If what you want is a simple web page(s) that contain a text description, small screenshot and link to the developer's web page for purchase from his/her site, then wouldn't be too difficult or costly to do. The only issue I see would be bandwidth access to that web site if an enormous number of people were hitting it daily (which adds additional cost from the web host provider).

Hey, if someone is already putting this together, I'll certainly post my applications on it! I'd even contribute some money to having ads places in Pocket PC magazines, etc. to help generate sales.

ppcinfo

[ppcinfo]

Copy of my email to PocketGear

Whom it may concern.

This increase is just abusive. If you take the average price of $12 to $15 dollars and subtract $1.12 and after that you apply a 30% at the end the developer will receive only 64 % of the listed price. This commission is higher than in any other place around.

<snip>

ctitanic,

Please let us know if you hear back from PocketGear regarding your email. I would be curious to know how they would respond. I imagine they will take the same tactics as Handango, and not respond for a while. Handango waited until everybody settled down, and it was business as usual.

ppcinfo

[ctitanic]

Well, they will have to respond in one way or another. Why? Because my first step in July 1st will be increase the prices in 15% at their sites and leave the other sites with a lower site. And send them the links to my software in competitors sites ;)

[ctitanic]

But keep this in mind. This is not a battle of one person. If you guys do not send them emails putting presure or showing them your disconfort with this we wont see any result. Handango took their positon when they were sure that they were the kings selling software but PocketGear is in the Cooker position requesting king´s honors. ;)

[ctitanic]

Hey, if someone is already putting this together, I'll certainly post my applications on it! I'd even contribute some money to having ads places in Pocket PC magazines, etc. to help generate sales.

ppcinfo

keep your eyes open because somebody is working on that and for free. I advised that person to put a banner to his software in the main site, and the traffic will pay him for his effort.

There would be one rule, everybody willing to participate should add a banner in his site pointing to that site. This rule will give us a huge amount of exposure. The other rule that that persons was analyzing with me today was to request that the price of the software listed there to be paid using Paypal should be lower than in any other place. This could give us some problems with some distributors but I believe that we have the right to offer discounts (I have done that using Handango) ;)

[Kacey Green]

I was just looking into PayPal - From this thread it looks like they also charge a percentage?!?! I figured it would be only a reasonable per-transaction fee... No joy...

I also don't like the sound of the hoops that a customer would need to jump through...

I think I'm looking for something like PayPal, where they simply provide the credit card and don't need to anything other than is required with any other transaction... Anyone have a clue??


Doesn't web cart software allow this?

[ctitanic]

ctitanic,

Please let us know if you hear back from PocketGear regarding your email. I would be curious to know how they would respond. I imagine they will take the same tactics as Handango, and not respond for a while. Handango waited until everybody settled down, and it was business as usual.

ppcinfo

I got a reply from Matt (from PocketGear, I have to say that this guy always was very nice guy). He came again with the same crap

This rate increase is a step that will enable us to secure the top carriers as well as distribution and affiliate channels for Windows Mobile software distribution. I believe with these new partnerships our developers will begin to see an increase in sales through our Windows Mobile channels. All I ask for is your trust in PowerByHand while we work as hard as possible to maximize your revenue. This is our goal and we would enjoying having you join us on this journey.

My reply was very hard, and at the end of it I invited him to read this thread and the one in BrightHand and I told him that We, developers, started to look for other alternatives since yesterday.

[ctitanic]

I updated my site www.pc-counselor.com/downloads.htm announcing the new price starting from July 1st.

[darrylb]

Why are you thinking so complicated?
All we need is a page where we can post a little ad with the description of the software and a link to our to our Page where users can buy and download the software. So basically what we need is a page that will list all the programs availables to be bought using Paypal at a cheaper cost. I believe that if somebody contact Paypal with such idea they will help. ;)

You are right - this simple approach is good, however the biggest problems are going to be :
1) Marketing the site - PPCT, etc would rather promote PocketGear or Handango where they can make some money. There is also time involved for the mailouts, etc if you do them - the person running the site could take some cash for product placement though
2) Consistency for users - buying through one developers site is going to be different to all the others
3) Sustainability - someones going to have some overheads associated with the site and they will want to recoup their costs.

However, on the bright side:
1) Customers could enjoy say 10-20% price discounts
2) Developers get slightly more revenue from their products
3) Marketing through developer sites could be very effective (it's just unproven)

In short it might work, but it's a bit of a punt, and who's volunteering to do the work.... I'd love to but dont have the time...

[ctitanic]

I can't say anything more that what I already said. There is somebody working on it already and he told me that he will have it ready soon.

You will be asked to add your product with links to your pictures, zip file if you have a demo and your paypal ID for that product. And that's it.

[ctitanic]

1) Marketing the site - PPCT, etc would rather promote PocketGear or Handango where they can make some money. There is also time involved for the mailouts, etc if you do them - the person running the site could take some cash for product placement though

We have our sites, we have other sites like PocketGamer, Pocketmatrix that wont ask for anything knowing that they will help the developers community (if you don't count a few free copies to raffle ;)) and we will have the support of Paypal ;)

[darrylb]

If any one is interested, I responded a couple of days ago to their email saying:
Hi,

I'd just thought I'd express my disappointment with this decision. The only differentiator for a developer with PocketGear up to this point has been the lower royalty cut. Please give me a competitive reason why I should continue to sell my products through PocketGear and not Handango (who has better market reach any way).

I can understand why you'd want to do this, but I think you've done it too early. This is the sort of move that you can afford to make when you have a bigger market share.

Regards


This morning I got the following reply from Matt Stein (who I agree has always been helpful in the past)


Thank you for your reply. Since our recent merger with PowerByHand and PinPoint Networks PocketGear is quickly increasing distribution for Windows Mobile developers. We are now committing more resources to marketing and distribution than ever before with the primary goal of increasing sales and market reach for our developer partners. As we both know if you don't make money then we don't make money.

This rate increase is a step that will allow us to secure the top distribution and affiliate channels for Windows Mobile software distribution. I believe with these new partnerships our developers will begin to see an increase in sales through our Windows Mobile channels. All I ask for is your trust in PowerByHand while we work as hard as possible to maximize your revenue. This is our goal and we would enjoy having you join us on this journey.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.
Best Regards,


I'm just drafting another reply, but I might sit on it for a day before replying. Essentially I'm going to say that if they increase my sales without affecting my Handango revenue (which they wont - part of their strategy is to get some of Handangos customer base), then I'll stay with them.

[ctitanic]

darrylb did you copy the email Matt sent me today?

Pure copy and paste what a shame, they had prepared a response to send us. :evil:


Dear Frank,

Thank you for your reply. Since our recent merger with PowerByHand and
PinPoint Networks PocketGear is quickly increasing distribution for Windows
Mobile developers. We are now committing more resources to marketing and
distribution than ever before with the primary goal of increasing sales and
market reach for our developer partners. As we both know if you don't make
money then we don't make money.

This rate increase is a step that will enable us to secure the top carriers
as well as distribution and affiliate channels for Windows Mobile software
distribution. I believe with these new partnerships our developers will
begin to see an increase in sales through our Windows Mobile channels. All
I ask for is your trust in PowerByHand while we work as hard as possible to
maximize your revenue. This is our goal and we would enjoying having you
join us on this journey.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.

[darrylb]

darrylb did you copy the email Matt sent me today?

Pure copy and paste what a shame, they had prepared a response to send us. :evil:

I was wondering why they didn't address the issues and why they did not offer the competitive reason I asked for!

[ctitanic]

Posted mine in my previous post so you can go and compare it with yours :D

[darrylb]

I guess the pre-canned reply indicates they are getting quite a few negative responses to the change....

I've put a brief article on my website explaining what I'm likely to do going forward.

[darrylb]

I just got an answer from Matt to my competitive reason bit...

They may be paying attention! 8O

[SnoopSoft]

In the last year, we have experienced a tremendous 58% revenue growth. 2004 sales are up 37% over the same period last year and revenues should continue to rise with several new partnerships soon to be announced.

That's directly from the email I received from them. What I fail to understand is why they need to raise their rate if they are doing so well? I know they hounded me to join them way back when and we all built them into what they are today. It's sad that greed will win out over the people who made them what they are.

I don't believe that the rate increase they are proposing will bring enough new customers to the table to offset the increase so my response back to them was very short and to the point - I gave them 30 days notice that I intend to pull my products from their distribution network.

Neither Handango or PocketGear provide near the usability or fraud detection that I've received from RegisterNow but for some reason they seem to think they can charge a premium for an inferior service. I hope whoever is building a developer-friendly site gets it going soon so we don't have to suffer much longer with the ones we have now.

--
Chris Scott
SnoopSoft, Inc.

[sp660]

Hi Chris,

I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
- PocketGear.com hasn't changed rates since early 2001
- in the same period of time PocketGear sales have grown by almost 300% yet we have continued charging the same rate.

One of the big reasons for the change is that we are now working with several wireless carriers and plan to deliver applications over-the-air. In order for us to do business with them there needs to be a sustainable business model in place to be attractive to the wireless carriers. Moreover, I want to assure you that we will use this extra commission to do better marketing and business development to grow the sales even more. This will benefit both you and us.

Regards,

Slawek Pruchnik
GM Windows Mobile
[email protected]
PowerByHand

[sp660]

I would like to thank you Chris as as it is due to you as well as other Windows Mobile developers for helping make PocketGear.com a success.

[dommasters]

What a load of cobblers ;) There must be stacks of developers like me who sell direct to the manufacturers - and at far higher "volume" than they shift through the resellers named. There would be loads of traffic from the people they sell the devices to. People that have never heard of Handango or Pocketgear !. We could have a main site that links to the downloads on our own sites so ... low bandwidth etc... there must be mileage in this ... otherwise all the small developers are going to disappear .... followed by the bigger ones ....
Yep it may turn out to be a new marketing model for this site and others re:advertising but ... I think everybody could be winners here. Afterall all you are really taking out of the equation is the resellers profits (don't feel guilty ... that's exactly how they view us I am sure ;)

PS Anybody else remember how the early 80's games market changed / early 90s windows market etc .... alll the small developers disappeared .... by small I am including the current best selling apps too. We need to get something together before the big boys attack the market with bucks, spit and polish. Once they do then the resellers that charge so much now will care even less about you !

PPS Carriers are not exactly paupers. If they want something they have the money to pay for it. Hitting the developer is the soft option. How long before we start getting commission deducted for entertainments laid on for carriers etc ;)

Dom :)

[dommasters]

PS Dont do anything hasty.... if you release something half baked (not saying you will) then it will die a death like Synclub etc and you may not get another chance. Do it right, behind the scenes, and get all the top developers involved or else it is a waste of time ....
I am certainly willing to contribute money. Get top designers etc to make a splash (I think we all know one or two ;) Finally developers must believe in it. If they half heartedly promote the site from their own sites then again it will just evaporate...

[kthome]

Exactly! During the late 80's most of the small developers started to get pushed out. Then in the 90's, they were cobbled up and consolidated. All of the hardware, corporate mergers, big ideas by microsoft, etc. will mean absolutely nothing without programmers. No offense intended here, but we are already at risk of outsourcing here in the US.

Bastards, nobody seems to care about what goes into making a SOLID application, be it PocketPC or Desktop. Now it is all about corporate structures and how can we continue to expand and blah...blah....blah....

Just yesterday, I did a service call trouble shooting some knuckle heads workstation that was bloated with spyware, made a nice $ 120.00 for a two hour run including drive time. At the PocketPC resale level, I would have to sell 6 copies of my software that I spent a year, without pay, to develop, to make that!! Something is definately screwed up with that!!!

I dont know gents and ladies, but I am seriously looking at dropping this. It was exactly what happened to the cell phone software market. Develop an app in Java and send it to sprint to receive a .99 per copy royalty, while they charge up to 4.99 for it!!

I KNOW PEOPLE HAVE TO EAT, BUT DAMN, DOES IT HAVE TO BE STEAK EVERY MEAL RESELLERS!!!????? Come down and eat with us----a cool brew and a burger!!

Keith Thome
CodeDolphin Software

[ctitanic]

Hi Chris,

I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
- PocketGear.com hasn't changed rates since early 2001
- in the same period of time PocketGear sales have grown by almost 300% yet we have continued charging the same rate.

One of the big reasons for the change is that we are now working with several wireless carriers and plan to deliver applications over-the-air. In order for us to do business with them there needs to be a sustainable business model in place to be attractive to the wireless carriers. Moreover, I want to assure you that we will use this extra commission to do better marketing and business development to grow the sales even more. This will benefit both you and us.

Regards,

Slawek Pruchnik
GM Windows Mobile
[email protected]
PowerByHand

listen, currently PocketGear is the second in my list of Worse Distributor. I don't see the reason why I should pay for your incompetence. You are asking as to pay you a rate that goes from 34% to 46% in some low price software and this is more than what any developer with little bit of brain will paid to any distributor. I have sent matt several emails already explaining all this. If you check this forum, here many developers think in the same way about this commission rate increase.
Finally I think that I have spent a lot of time already trying to convince your company about the big mistake that you are doing with all this issue. I'll stay for a while using your service but my software will have a higher price at PocketGear than in any other site that wont help me neither will help PocketGear so the end of this is going to be the total cancelation of my account. I'm sure that when this happens I'll have already another way to get the poor 20% of sales that I'm currently getting in PocketGear.

[SnoopSoft]

It's interesting they replied to me here rather than to the email I sent. I debated even posting here and after several times not hitting the submit button I came back a few hours later and posted it so everyone would know why SnoopSoft will no longer participate in PocketGear.

I certainly wish PocketGear all the growth that they hope for but SnoopSoft will not be a part of that growth. I realize that PocketGear has not changed the rate since 2001 but I have not raised the price of my software since 2001 either - and I did not raise it when Handango raised my rates. So while I experience a steady decline in revenue and still keep my rates the same PocketGear and Handango raise their rates while experiencing a growth... On the flip side, RegisterNow has not changed my rate since 1998 and still provides much better service. I can process my own refunds online there and their fraud detection is superior to all the others I use combined.

--
Chris Scott
SnoopSoft, Inc.

[Kati Compton]

Hi Chris,

I just wanted to point out a couple of things:
- PocketGear.com hasn't changed rates since early 2001
- in the same period of time PocketGear sales have grown by almost 300% yet we have continued charging the same rate.
You know what's interesting here? We're talking about percents. If sales have grown by almost 300%, and that increase is equal for all price categories of software, they're making 300% more than they did in 2001. Sales increasing means their profits increase, because they're selling more units, each of which they make a set % on (plus a transaction fee, even). If anything, that does not seem a reason to *increase* the rate. At least, not a good argument to convince people. If they want to say "the increase of sales by 300% was accompanied by an increase in processing costs of 400%", maybe. But "We've been making more money, so we want to make even more money" isn't going to convince anyone that increasing the rate is warranted.

Another thing - prices increase when they're a flat fee to compensate for inflation. *percents* shouldn't have to increase. What *should* happen (speaking economically, not as a consumer - personally I'd like everything to be cheap forever... ;) ), is that software prices rise with inflation (or increased features, quality, etc). That in turn increases the amount of money being brought in to PocketGear because 34% of $12 is more than 34% of $10.

Anyway - PocketGear is going to have to make a more thought-out and convincing argument than the one quoted here if they want to keep clients.

[redbug]

keep your eyes open because somebody is working on that and for free. I advised that person to put a banner to his software in the main site, and the traffic will pay him for his effort.

Here we are: http://www.ppcpal.org
We need ALL the developers. Put your softwares here and don't hesitate to fill the forum with all the questions you have (and improvments you need)

[ctitanic]

It's interesting they replied to me here rather than to the email I sent. I debated even posting here and after several times not hitting the submit button I came back a few hours later and posted it so everyone would know why SnoopSoft will no longer participate in PocketGear.

I certainly wish PocketGear all the growth that they hope for but SnoopSoft will not be a part of that growth. I realize that PocketGear has not changed the rate since 2001 but I have not raised the price of my software since 2001 either - and I did not raise it when Handango raised my rates. So while I experience a steady decline in revenue and still keep my rates the same PocketGear and Handango raise their rates while experiencing a growth... On the flip side, RegisterNow has not changed my rate since 1998 and still provides much better service. I can process my own refunds online there and their fraud detection is superior to all the others I use combined.

--
Chris Scott
SnoopSoft, Inc.

Chris could you tell us a little more about this service in RegisterNow. How it works, what they demand from you to open an account, etc, etc.

[dommasters]

keep your eyes open because somebody is working on that and for free. I advised that person to put a banner to his software in the main site, and the traffic will pay him for his effort.

Here we are: http://www.ppcpal.org
We need ALL the developers. Put your softwares here and don't hesitate to fill the forum with all the questions you have (and improvments you need)
What a load of rubbish. Sorry but it is. Act in haste regret at leisure and all that but if you're going to do it then do it properly.... the look, feel and nav stinks.... hardly a showcase and besides many of us code for all devices not just PPC. Not being negative ... just that you need to be ruthlessly critical of anything before you release it AND involve the cream of the design World etc ....

[ctitanic]

Something is better than nothing. If you can do it better please contact the author and help him, I'm sure that your words did not help in anything right now.

[dommasters]

Grammar stinks too. If you are going to do nav in English then best to be native in it. Honestly it's soooo poor I'd be embarassed to add anything. Whatever you produce has to be at least as slick as the current resellers ... and in truth that should be easy ;)

[Kati Compton]

Then why don't you volunteer to fix the English for them?

[ctitanic]

BTW, Pocketgears design stinks too. ;) Nothing to compare with Handango's.

[dommasters]

Something is not better than nothing. I want you to succeed soooooooooooo badly but ... you've got to do it right. When was the last time you saw something "BIG" launch with a lousy site ? Sites need design, usability testing, polish, branding etc. You get the site right then launch , not the other way round.

[ctitanic]

Something is not better than nothing. I want you to succeed soooooooooooo badly but ... you've got to do it right. When was the last time you saw something "BIG" launch with a lousy site ? Sites need design, usability testing, polish, branding etc. You get the site right then launch , not the other way round.

Why you dont help him? Is very easy to talk here while other do the job.
Please, contact the author and help him if you can help in anyway but talking.

[dommasters]

Then why don't you volunteer to fix the English for them?
Because I would be building on sand ...

1. Get in touch with all the top developers and find out their views, what they want, and confidentially whether they are interested.

2. Work out what site is going to do and consider navigation, target, brand etc. Need a forum that everybody can contribute to so we can bounce ideas.

3. Get a gorgeous cutting edge design to it all. Secure login. Try it out. Get feedback. Is it easy to use ? Is it slick ?

4. Have a big launch with a big advertising budget (all developers should chip in as the initial expense will pay off).

Above are just some ideas but main thing is a secure area for all developers to discuss and implement away from prying eyes....

5. I can't spell out last step but the final stage involves removing your products from certain sites ;)


Of course the above may be total cr@p and I'm fine with that so long as we can discuss why and work out a way forward from that ;)

[dommasters]

Something is not better than nothing. I want you to succeed soooooooooooo badly but ... you've got to do it right. When was the last time you saw something "BIG" launch with a lousy site ? Sites need design, usability testing, polish, branding etc. You get the site right then launch , not the other way round.

Why you dont help him? Is very easy to talk here while other do the job.
Please, contact the author and help him if you can help in anyway but talking.

Because I am not up to the task. I am not that talented. I wish I were. There's a small party at mine on 19th June. A few designers who have done work for Volkswagen (among others) are visiting. It was due to just be a get together but I'll have a chat with them. They have access to the some of the World's most talented designers etc. I could never afford them myself but ... if say 25 to 125 developers contributed say $2000 each then they might be interested to help their old buddy out ....
I'll see if I can get them to show you some of their past award winning sites (Heaps of Macromedia awards etc).
However somebody would need to be hired to maintain the results ....

[ctitanic]

Then why don't you volunteer to fix the English for them?
Because I would be building on sand ...

1. Get in touch with all the top developers and find out their views, what they want, and confidentially whether they are interested.


He, Miguel, is contacting them, here we have a few that are reading this lines.



2. Work out what site is going to do and consider navigation, target, brand etc. Need a forum that everybody can contribute to so we can bounce ideas.



There is a forum already.



3. Get a gorgeous cutting edge design to it all. Secure login. Try it out. Get feedback. Is it easy to use ? Is it slick ?



We don't need so much of security there, the only thing that we have there are links to all the information. We are not maneging sales, charging credit cards or anything like that.


4. Have a big launch with a big advertising budget (all developers should chip in as the initial expense will pay off).


We can have that at anytime. When this same site started the design was null. Just one post over the other. And check now


Above are just some ideas but main thing is a secure area for all developers to discuss and implement away from prying eyes....

5. I can't spell out last step but the final stage involves removing your products from certain sites ;)


Of course the above may be total cr@p and I'm fine with that so long as we can discuss why and work out a way forward from that ;)

I really believe that we can start with that page and down on the road we can convert that place in something better. But this is just my opinion. I trusted the author of that page and I really believe that in that way everyone of us will win if we try together this new oportunity.

[ctitanic]

Something is not better than nothing. I want you to succeed soooooooooooo badly but ... you've got to do it right. When was the last time you saw something "BIG" launch with a lousy site ? Sites need design, usability testing, polish, branding etc. You get the site right then launch , not the other way round.

Why you dont help him? Is very easy to talk here while other do the job.
Please, contact the author and help him if you can help in anyway but talking.

Because I am not up to the task. I am not that talented. I wish I were. There's a small party at mine on 19th June. A few designers who have done work for Volkswagen (among others) are visiting. It was due to just be a get together but I'll have a chat with them. They have access to the some of the World's most talented designers etc. I could never afford them myself but ... if say 25 to 125 developers contributed say $2000 each then they might be interested to help their old buddy out ....
I'll see if I can get them to show you some of their past award winning sites (Heaps of Macromedia awards etc).
However somebody would need to be hired to maintain the results ....

You are just a dreamer. did you say 2000 dollars each one of us? You should be a very rich man.

I pass. I'm just a poor immigrant that came 5 year ago to USA with 5 dollars in my pockets.

[dommasters]

Don't need security ?
Okay so you think the resellers are not following this thread ?
Any good ideas posted here will be implemented elsewhere stealing your thunder.
Cany you imagine Dyson talking about a new invention in an open forum and asking for feedback ;)

[dommasters]

PS Excuse my spelling and grammar ;) I have Carpel Tunnel Syndrome from working too hard for roo little ;)

[ctitanic]

There is a forum with some security. We don't have to complicate a simple project: Have an organized list of all our software that can be bought using a paypal link. That simple.

[dommasters]

Something is not better than nothing. I want you to succeed soooooooooooo badly but ... you've got to do it right. When was the last time you saw something "BIG" launch with a lousy site ? Sites need design, usability testing, polish, branding etc. You get the site right then launch , not the other way round.

Why you dont help him? Is very easy to talk here while other do the job.
Please, contact the author and help him if you can help in anyway but talking.

Because I am not up to the task. I am not that talented. I wish I were. There's a small party at mine on 19th June. A few designers who have done work for Volkswagen (among others) are visiting. It was due to just be a get together but I'll have a chat with them. They have access to the some of the World's most talented designers etc. I could never afford them myself but ... if say 25 to 125 developers contributed say $2000 each then they might be interested to help their old buddy out ....
I'll see if I can get them to show you some of their past award winning sites (Heaps of Macromedia awards etc).
However somebody would need to be hired to maintain the results ....

You are just a dreamer. did you say 2000 dollars each one of us? You should be a very rich man.

I pass. I'm just a poor immigrant that came 5 year ago to USA with 5 dollars in my pockets.

Aim for the stars and you might reach the clouds ;)
Either think big (you can tailor back later) or else don't waste your time. I think better off developers would be willing to put a little more in. The thing is you won't know unless you ask them.

[ctitanic]

While we are talking here two more developers has posted their software there! In just little less than an hour! That's the way to go guys, it does not cost anything to try.

[dommasters]

PS That site was obviously authored by a programmer. Why not get a designer to tidy it up. That would cost very little and make a huge difference. There's nothing worse than leaving programmers in charge of the graphical design ;)

[ctitanic]

PS That site was obviously authored by a programmer. Why not get a designer to tidy it up. That would cost very little and make a huge difference. There's nothing worse than leaving programmers in charge of the graphical design ;)

Well, you are absolutely right on this point. The main idea is that when we programmer have trusted others to handle the sales of our programs those other have thought to have the right to ask 40% of commission just for listing and helping us with the payments, etc.

[ppcinfo]

In my opinion, this new site is a great start. I'd prefer a simple interface that was easy to navigate through and do software searches, which is what this new site seems to have. Good job!

What I would request, is the ability to post software with a link back to the developer's site. I no longer use PayPal, so I don't want to deal with the PayPal payment processing. I'd rather have a prospective buyer go to my web site for purchases and do so with my payment methods.

My issues with using PayPal are:

1) A good number of potential customers won't use PayPal because they either fear using it, or they don't want to create a PayPal account to make their purchase. I know this from experience.

2) For our software we send out an activation code number to fully activate a trial version of software after a purchase. Since most customer want "instant gratification" for their purchases, they will want their code number immediately after their purchase. To do this with PayPal, you need to set up extensive cgi-bin scripts to email out codes after verifying a valid purchase. Although we have used this method in the past, we don't want to expend the added time to maintain this processing system. If you're only selling a few copies a day or week and don't mind manually sending out code numbers, then this may not be an issue. But, we want an automated system that will satisfy customers and not require constant monitoring on our part.

If the mission of this new web site is to cater to PayPal purchases only, then I'll have to pass. On the other hand, if this web site is to be a central distribution center for Pocket PC software then I'll certainly join up.

It would also be nice to see if developers would be willing to contribute funding for placing an ad in some of the popular Pocket PC magazines to promote this web site. A $2000 page ad in "Pocket PC Magazine" would be hard to manage by an individual developer, but a group of developers may be able to pool enough funds to cover this.

Just my two cents...

ppcinfo

[dommasters]

That site just convinces me that I'll be with the big resellers for a long time to come. I guarantee it will go nowhere in it's current form but please prove me wrong .... nothing would make me happier ! It's not a good start, but an awful one. It is a rushed knee jerk reaction when what is needed is something that is planned, has developer input and buy in and covers all bases. It needs to have wow factor ... remember you are selling ! Also it's not like you have 5 years to evolve the site.
It's a massive project for sure but it is one worth doing right... or not atall.

[ctitanic]

I agree with you ppcinfo. I'm using paypal and I can tell you I have more sales than in pocketgear. But I always send my reg key by email and after I verify the order manually. So my users knows that there will be a delay and that's it. To make this delay short I have my cellphone ringin everytime somebody request the registration key at my site, once I receive the notification in my cell I either send the key using my PPC and the GPRS on my phone or via my desktop PC.

I know that many users don't like paypal but I have seen many big stores that have started to use paypal as a method of payment (www.overstock.com, www.tigerdirect.com... etc) Paypal charge less than 4% for each transaction which seems to me aceptable.

[ctitanic]

That site just convinces me that I'll be with the big resellers for a long time to come. I guarantee it will go nowhere in it's current form but please prove me wrong .... nothing would make me happier ! It's not a good start, but an awful one. It is a rushed knee jerk reaction when what is needed is something that is planned, has developer input and buy in and covers all bases. It needs to have wow factor ... remember you are selling ! Also it's not like you have 5 years to evolve the site.
It's a massive project for sure but it is one worth doing right... or not atall.

Up to yesterday the only ones that did know that I was selling my products with a lower price at paypal were users that went to my page. Starting from today there are other sites poiting to my products. So for me it's a win/win situation. I have not lost anything and I have won more possibilities. So...

[ppcinfo]

I agree with you ppcinfo. I'm using paypal and I can tell you I have more sales than in pocketgear. But I always send my reg key by email and after I verify the order manually. So my users knows that there will be a delay and that's it. To make this delay short I have my cellphone ringin everytime somebody request the registration key at my site, once I receive the notification in my cell I either send the key using my PPC and the GPRS on my phone or via my desktop PC.

I know that many users don't like paypal but I have seen many big stores that have started to use paypal as a method of payment (www.overstock.com, www.tigerdirect.com... etc) Paypal charge less than 4% for each transaction which seems to me aceptable.

ctitanic, my advice to you is to read up on IPN on the PayPal developer page. If you have a web site that can run cgi-bin scripts and can send out emails, then this would be the best way of automating the reg key distribution. When your sales begin to increase you'll probably want to automate this process, otherwise your tied to your desktop PC or cell phone constantly sending out messages to buyers. The more automated the process, the more time you'll have for working on other projects! Just some friendly advice.

BTW, I loved PayPal. The commissions were extremely low, and I could easily sweep funds into my checking account. Refunds were easy to handle also. The only drawback, was the number of potential buyers that would refuse to use PayPal. In those cases, I would have to refer them to Handango or PocketGear.

Statistically, my sales per month breaks down as follows:

PocketGear - 5%
Handango - 20%
My web site - 75%

This makes a lot of sense, because I read somewhere that most buyers will make a purchase from the developer's web site (regardless of where they originally found the product). That is why Handango and Pocketgear sends out emails occassionally to developers, stating that they must remove all references to their web page address on the product description listed at their sites, because it will draw away customers to the developers site. Of course, they have every right to make up these rules, since it is their web site. But as a developer, you certainly don't need to post your software there!

ppcinfo

[ctitanic]

ppcinfo, you should contact the guy who created that page. Right now he has prepared everything to use the paypal IDs to our software but I don't see any reason why you should exclude other methods of payments as long as they are not any of the well known distributors. Right now the buy buttons are pointing to paypal, but I don't see why not make them point to any other payment option that you have implemented at your site.
I will contact him too about this point.

[darrylb]

I got another reply from Matt at PocketGear. He explained that they have done away with the adult stuff on the pocketgtear site and they are trying to get the site more corporately focused. Good on them I say.

I expect I'll try shareIT as well. They have two rates you can choose from. One is a flat 14.9% (minimum take of 2.50), the other is 2.95 + 5% of product price.

This is very reasonable, so I'll use this as my site processing going forward. They are at www.shareit.com. they even have a PDA section at www.shareit.com/pda.html (http://www.shareit.com/pda.html)


Here is a comparison of the different options:
Resller |Share-IT 1 & 2 | Hndngo | PcktGear | e-Sellerate
Price|$19.95 - $19.95 | $19.95 | $19.95 | $19.95
Net | $16.00 - $16.98 | $12.57 | $13.18 | $17.96

The net is what the developer takes away from the deal, the price is what the end user pays for the product. The e-Sellerate one assumes you do less than $15k of product a year - if so then margin is 10%, if not it's 15% and then scales back the more you sell.

[redbug]

I'll add paypal to your chart

Resellers | Paypal Personnal Account | Paypal Premier/Business
Price | $19.95 | $19.95
Net | $19.95 | $19.211

[redbug]

I added import from pocketgear' function on ppcpal.org

Just enter a keyword to find your software, click on the 'Get' link and
change information on your product page.

[Lex]

From 'DinarSoft' "We just got an EMail from PocketGear
They just increased their royalty from 20% to 30% (plus the other charges)
We're thinking of pulling off our software of their web site."

That makes PocketGear a 'suppository' instead of a 'repository'.

[Jason Dunn]

I just wanted to say that I thought this was one of the most interesting threads I've read here in a long time. And that's all I'm going to say. :-)

[paulzazzarino]

yes I did too, but unfortunately people left out a bunch of issues!
See software resellers continued - not just percentages anymore!

[smashcasi]

Looks like Handango is joining in. Here's a quote from the latest partners email:

Your royalty for all sales via credit/debit card through our Basic Channel (www.handango.com) on or after August 1, 2004 will change. You will receive 60% of Gross Revenue, and as always, Handango will cover any transaction or other processing fees.

[Brad Adrian]

What reason did they give for the increase? What's your opinion of the reason they gave?

[dommasters]

You're lucky ! Seems we will only get 45% from Handango now as we are on the Gold program. So they get 55%. Wow. I should have stayed in web development :0). I think all developers should price their software so that they get a set amount per sale. The price would be determined by the commission the reseller charged.... if only. Very cunning what Handango have done as they have taken away the lowest and highest levels of commission but of course only a few resellers pay the highest commission.

[darrylb]

The only valid reason in the email was:

Our main website at www.handango.com is getting more than just an extreme makeover. We have invested heavily in our back-end infrastructure, and we can now deliver a better customer experience across all major mobile computing platforms and literally hundreds of wireless and non-wireless devices.

Suddenly PocketGear is looking good again! :roll:

But wait there is more.....

If you do more than US$50k per annum with them, they take a further 10%, meaning they take 50%!!!!

And that is not factoring in the additional taxes non-US residents have to pay :evil:

But wait - there is more.....

Now we can only offer a maximum discount of 25%. No longer can we give away better discounts, or free copies through handango!

There is more - but it is too depressing for now.... Full details can be found at http://www.handango.com/marketing/HandangoSDA.pdf

At least my Pocket Gear sales are improving - this is ridiculous :!:

Can you say R-I-P-O-F-F ? :evil:

[Jeff Rutledge]

As someone who isn't involved in the development, distribution or sales side of PPC software (or any software for that matter), can someone explain this to me? It seems like nothing more than a greedy cash grab to me, and I think it's going to hurt everyone in the process.

Tell me I'm missing something!

[dommasters]

I've just emailed them about coming off the "Gold" program. 55% commission is just too much. I'm also going to reduce the number of different titles we sell at Handango as that way we can get below the 50K threshold. 50K sounds a lot but after costs and taxes it is far less than I could earn back in a proper job ... and I'd work less hours, get holidays, a pension and job security LOL. 55%. Unbelievable.

[smashcasi]

Like most of the other developers here I'm not exactly excited about the increase. New channels and new tools are wonderful if they boost sales to the point where the added cost is justified, but I'm not terribly optimistic about that being the case. Just having your software on Handango does not sell it - you have to market it yourself. From studying the download numbers of products that pay the (very high) advertising fees to get help in this area from Handango the results do not look good. I'd be interested in hearing comments from others who have actually tried some of these ads in case I'm way off-base here.

I do think that it is important to have high quality centralized places for consumers to purchase products, and if these resellers were really working hard to help me sell my software I wouldn't have much to complain about. But when I'm developing, marketing, and supporting the software and seeing no real benefit from listing through them other than the handful of users who happen to stumble across it I think 40% is getting a bit high.

In the end I will keep my listings on both PocketGear and Handango for the handful that do find it there or can make use of points or gift certificates or the like, and in the hopes that they can provide a significant opportunity to increase sales at which point all will be forgiven. At the same time, where before I was content to only use these resellers I will now be looking into setting up my own distribution method and directing all new customers to it.

[darrylb]

As someone who isn't involved in the development, distribution or sales side of PPC software (or any software for that matter), can someone explain this to me? It seems like nothing more than a greedy cash grab to me, and I think it's going to hurt everyone in the process.

Tell me I'm missing something!

What can I say - it seems that way from the inside too....

[juni]

The only improvement (for me) is that handango now supports paypal. I'm going to raise the price at handango and keep it low at my site.

[darrylb]

I'm going to raise the price at handango and keep it low at my site.

You need to make sure your rates are consistent between distributors - charge what you like on your site, but the distributor sites must be the same or you'll be violating your Handango agreement.... :roll:

I'm probably going to do the same, but I'd rather not have to.

[juni]

I'm only using handango and paypal on my site. It is sad that handango takes such a large cut - since people seem to prefer using it over paypal. I suppose it is the instant gratification of being able to download what you purchase as opposed to waiting a few hours for me to check the paypal payment and mail the file. :(

I also think that handango does very little for the 40% they take - basicly they allow you to keep a file on their site and they handle the creditcard etc payments - absolutely no advertising whatsoever.

Now if a site like PPCT decided to open up a webstore and charge even as much as 20-25% of the sales I think many developers would switch...(hint, hint ;) )

[darrylb]

I agree - they dont really do anything specific with products to promote them (unless you pay them more), but they are the biggest and customers just dont seem to be able to find software as well without them.

I'm adding a new distributor (share-it - www.shareit.com) to my list of (now three) distributors.

I'll point users coming to my website to them and offer an instant rebate or something similar to bring the price down. Their rates are much more reasonable - I'll be paying $2.97 per transaction rather than $9.18 per transaction. They also give you an insane amount of control over what how the product is presented. It leaves Handango and the others face down in the dirt by comparison! :twisted:

[Jason Dunn]

Now if a site like PPCT decided to open up a webstore and charge even as much as 20-25% of the sales I think many developers would switch...(hint, hint ;) )

That's not something I'm interested in doing, but there might be another option. I'm mulling something over...

[darrylb]

That's not something I'm interested in doing, but there might be another option. I'm mulling something over...

Hmmm. Let me know too - I'd be keen to work with you Jason - I know you'll be reasonable about this! :D

[dommasters]

Let me know too ! I pay Handango 55% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dom

[skewline]

i tried to read it all, but wearied. fascinating, though. i'm just a noobie who buys/downloads. i love the convenience of shopping this way, and wish i could buy software for pc this way sometimes. i'm very sympathetic to your concerns and business. i started to get a paypal acct, but was afraid that i would start to get popups and spaam again, so i backed out. paying w/ my credit card is soooo convenient. but i'l follow through and get paypal to suppport you. thankx for the great software you write. paul

[PPCRules]

It's interesting that no one has commented in this thread about the big free Summer Software Dump that PocketGear is doing. Their site traffic has got to be incredibly higher than it has ever been. And making you sign up with C/C to get free software is a slick way of getting new users familiar with their ordering system, etc. I had never bought from them proir, just Company H and direct, but now I'm pretty familiar and comfortable with the process and can get the free stuff "bought" and downloaded in a couple minutes (if everything is working, that is).

So, it seems they did have plans to take the higher fees and plow it back into the business, in ways that drives traffic and raises the awareness of many new customers, many who will become paying customers as well. I say pretty brilliant. So, it wasn't just the cell phone carriers they were working on.

[MichaelZareli]

Dom, you pay 55% but I am sure it is worth it with all the H marketing that you get in exchange. They must be selling $1M or more of your great software just on their MSFT store! I am surprised you haven't retired yet.

[gregmills]

Count me in if you go co-op too.

Here's an idea until then. I'm going to put a little table in the product listings on my site that shows the different options for purchasing the product. Next to the price I'll show what amount of money I actually make when they choose that purchase method. I'm just guessing that if people go to my site they'll pick the option that puts more money in my pocket more often than not.

I know I would. And it creates market pressure for the distributors when their charges are exposed and directly compared with those of thier competitors.

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. There are 11 pages in this thread and I read 6 of them. :wink:

[The PocketTV Team]

I'll tell you in my case

Handango 55%
PocketGear 25%
PayPal 30%


We have about the same, with a bit more for PocketGear / Smartphone.NET (except that we use Kagi instead of PayPal, with also very low fee). Handango brings us the most sales.

The question is not how much royalties they take, it's how much net revenues they bring you.

Handango has very agressive marketing, co-branding, partnering etc and they push your products on manufacturer's catalog etc. They just push them toward potential customers who might never know about them otherwise.

Relatively few people go directly to out website to purchase our products. So companies like Handango and PocketGear bring lots of revenues, by bringing customers. Many people purchase products on those sites without even trying the free Trial download, believe it or not.

PocketGear (and Smartphone.Net) are now owned by PowerByHand, the parent company of PalmGear, and they too are starting a more agressive marketing of their catalog. They do that to compete with Handango, but this has a cost, so naturally they take a bigger fee, but PocketGear is still much cheaper than handango (which takes 40% and more).

Interestingly enough, PowerByHand also owns ereader.com, which is into the failed e-book business. So maybe we'll pay for this strategic mistake too :)

[The PocketTV Team]

The only improvement (for me) is that handango now supports paypal. I'm going to raise the price at handango and keep it low at my site.
FYI: You are not allowed to to that, according to the Handango redistribution agreement.

[dommasters]

Having had time to think about it I think the 55% I pay Handango is a bargain. They're only a small percentage of overall sales and it's through them that I get most of the big deals like HP etc. They are worth every penny.
Dom

[exosyphen]

Hello,

In the meanwhile, submit your software to http://www.mobileground.com
It's free.
The site is very young, but we are working to get it advertised as much as we can.

I am also a developer so I am on both sides of the fence.

Any questions are welcomed to : [email protected]

[gregmills]

This is an interesting turn

http://www.esd-union.com/

What do you think of unionizing? Collective bargaining with with the distribution site for more fair rates. I don't see how anyone could think that rates of 40-50% on some products could be considered in the least bit fair. But the truth is that you don't have a lot of other channels to get your product to in front of your makert. For that Handango and PocketGear do provide a valuable service.

I'd like to see some numbers from the distributors that demostrate the necessity of the recent rate hikes. Or at least show the additional benefit that developers recieve from the manner in which they intend to spend their additional revenues. If they are going to take more money but spend it in marketing so that the net result is that I see more sales and end up making more than I did at the lower rate then fine. But let's see the plan.

[exosyphen]

Nice site. We must advertise it.

[ardiri]

This is an interesting turn

http://www.esd-union.com/

What do you think of unionizing? Collective bargaining with with the distribution site for more fair rates. I don't see how anyone could think that rates of 40-50% on some products could be considered in the least bit fair. But the truth is that you don't have a lot of other channels to get your product to in front of your makert. For that Handango and PocketGear do provide a valuable service.

hi guys, didn't think the site would make it here - but, it did!

i have just emailed the ESD sites with some ideas and thoughts - unionizing is exactly what my original idea was all about. if we can get a 25% deal for all developers; we may be onto something really good. i dont want this site limited to palm people - check the email i mailed out:

http://www.esd-union.com/ESD-email.txt

i am looking to get more people on board (managerial) to assist in the negotiations with the "big boys" - in addition to general developer support for the notion. it may take time - but, we have to start somewhere!

// Aaron Ardiri

[exosyphen]

Recently, after 3 months of threatening, I got my check from pocketland.de
I went to my bank to cash it in, and they only returned aprox. 60% of the check value.

My bank cashed in their check fee when I deposited the check and my bank clearly told me : The missing money are not fees, it's simply what their bank gave you.

I found this outrageous and pulled of all my software.

How can they do this? You give them a check for X Euros and they only give you half? Afterall, it's a bank, not a grocery.

Pocketland didn't care about this ...

[ardiri]

if you are a developer and wish to voice your support for the ESD UNION cause; mail a 100x20 icon and a url back to your own website so we can put it on the page. the more developers we have supporting this cause; the more chances we have of doing anything.

please do - post this information to your friends and other developers - there needs to be a line drawn around this issue. mail your icon to [email protected]

[jnolan]

You can read a different take on ESD Union here http://www.pdalive.com/showarticle.php?threadid=6885.

[ardiri]

http://www.esd-union.com/board/

this topic has been quite hot over the last few days on a number of websites; why not voice your opinion such that it can be centralized and kept for archive purposes in a single place.

there is also a voting option to give postive or negative feedback about the cause - dont miss it!